| --- Log opened Sun Aug 12 00:00:43 2012 |
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| 07:22 | < addking> | . |
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| 11:19 | <@randolph> | zrglb |
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| 11:31 | <@randolph> | Hey Malcolm |
| 11:31 | <@randolph> | Just got back from the game night where I demo'd |
| 11:31 | < Malcolm> | Ah, I was just about to ask you about that! |
| 11:31 | < Malcolm> | How did it goe? |
| 11:31 | < Malcolm> | goe? |
| 11:31 | < Malcolm> | Bloody hell |
| 11:32 | <@randolph> | It went fairly well, got two people to play, and several interested observers |
| 11:32 | <@randolph> | I got some suggestions on how to run it in the future |
| 11:32 | < Malcolm> | Such as? |
| 11:33 | <@randolph> | Color code every system, including the "penultimate white die" so it's visually distinct and obvious for removal |
| 11:33 | <@randolph> | So "make every weapon red somewhere," "every spot is yellow on it," etc |
| 11:33 | <@randolph> | Note that this is a suggestion *just* for first-timer demos |
| 11:33 | <@randolph> | Not for play with regulars |
| 11:34 | <@randolph> | The "show the penultimate white die" bit is because it's one less thing to memorize that a naked frame has 2 hit points |
| 11:34 | <@randolph> | While that's a simple thing to memorize, it's a thing. |
| 11:35 | <@randolph> | Um... Oh, and provide quick-reference sheets for the rules |
| 11:35 | < Malcolm> | Seem like reasonable suggestions |
| 11:35 | <@randolph> | For my own part, I'm going to cut down on HtH in the demo companies |
| 11:35 | < Malcolm> | Was there a particular preponderance of HtH? |
| 11:36 | <@randolph> | One squad was 3x HtH, 1x DF with global spot support |
| 11:36 | <@randolph> | One squad had a HtH/DF unit and a double HtH unit |
| 11:36 | <@randolph> | This resulted in an absolute slaughterhouse when they clashed |
| 11:37 | <@randolph> | That's not bad, in and of itself, but it detracted from some (in my opinion) core experiences |
| 11:37 | < Malcolm> | Hmm |
| 11:37 | <@randolph> | 1) Because of all the HtH, cover is ignored *and doesn't get blown to brickybits* |
| 11:37 | <@randolph> | All game, only one piece of cover was nuked |
| 11:37 | < Malcolm> | Yesterday I had two teams each with a double HtH frame, and the third team with no HtH at all |
| 11:38 | < Malcolm> | I think it was useful to illustrate HtH, but a preponderance in demos may be a less than optimal thing |
| 11:38 | < Malcolm> | There was lots of demolition in our demo yesterday |
| 11:38 | <@randolph> | Yeah, that's two HtH total. This demo had 4 pure HtH and one hybrid HtH/DF across 11 frames |
| 11:38 | < Malcolm> | My poor little rural village |
| 11:38 | <@randolph> | That's a lot |
| 11:39 | <@randolph> | Right, that's the conclusion I came to |
| 11:39 | <@randolph> | DF and Artillery do two things: Encourage use of cover, and therefore destruction of cover |
| 11:39 | <@randolph> | Instead, it was Mortal Frame Kombat |
| 11:40 | <@randolph> | Also, because of the heavy HtH, being newer players, they sought out targets of opportunity (each other), which meant tearing each other to pieces in the field far from the Defender |
| 11:41 | <@randolph> | While that's an important lesson to learn as an Attacker, probably not the kind of dynamic for demos |
| 11:42 | <@randolph> | There was at least one other person present that had played MFZ before, though he didn't realize we had a forum and IRC |
| 11:42 | <@randolph> | (he does now) |
| 11:43 | <@randolph> | I also spread the word and kickstarter URL to a few other people - if they were sober enough that the memory sticks, we might have some new players :P |
| 11:44 | < Malcolm> | There were a lot of people yesterday interested in very similar things: pointed them to the website, etc |
| 11:44 | < Malcolm> | Lots of passing interest |
| 11:45 | <@randolph> | Cool |
| 11:47 | <@randolph> | Oh, and one guy suggested a visual representation of the Initiative |
| 11:47 | < Malcolm> | Not at all sure thats necessary |
| 11:47 | < Malcolm> | I mean, you know who is in the lead |
| 11:48 | <@randolph> | Right, but I think it may be true that for some people, it's not as tangible who they should be attacking |
| 11:48 | < Malcolm> | Couple of rubbishy phone photos of the demo here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jed_september/ |
| 11:48 | <@randolph> | I didn't feel it was necessary personally, but who am I to deny his feeling that it would have been useful for him? |
| 11:48 | < Malcolm> | Hmm, I'd try and avoid making that kind of change, for me it just adds more 'administration' to the game |
| 11:48 | <@randolph> | Cool! That looks like a much larger playing field than the one I used |
| 11:49 | < Malcolm> | The view is deceptive, we used quite a square area in the middle of the table |
| 11:49 | <@randolph> | ah |
| 11:49 | < Malcolm> | It wasn't as long as it looks |
| 11:50 | <@randolph> | We used a coffee table maybe 2.5-3 rulers in diameter |
| 11:50 | < Malcolm> | That doesn't sound too bad |
| 11:50 | < Malcolm> | Gets people into contact quickly |
| 11:50 | <@randolph> | re: administration, yeah, but someone's keeping track of initiative anyway, right? like on scratch paper (I was)? So this would just be a step up from "show everyone the scratch paper" |
| 11:52 | <@randolph> | afk a bit |
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| 18:15 | < Mantisking> | Hello? |
| 18:16 | < afny> | o/ |
| 18:22 | < Malcolm> | Ahoy hoy |
| 18:24 | < afny> | So looking at your new demo pics |
| 18:24 | < afny> | you've been using those 7p houses for a while, right? |
| 18:24 | < afny> | How many hits do they generally take? |
| 18:24 | < afny> | Do you ever burn through a whole one in a game? |
| 18:25 | < afny> | (Mantis, you use them too, right?) |
| 18:26 | < Mantisking> | I used them in the demos I ran, but I tended to avoid damage to cover in the interest of game speed. |
| 18:26 | < Mantisking> | (I also may have forgotten about it as I was a bit hyper during the proceedings.) |
| 18:26 | < afny> | heh |
| 18:27 | < afny> | They seem simple and formulaic enough so they wouldn't be a hassle to rebuild |
| 18:27 | < afny> | I think I'm gonna get some of those roof slopes next time I bricklink |
| 18:29 | < Mantisking> | I think I had one get broken down somehow and they are easy to rebuild. |
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| 18:31 | < huhwhozat> | greetings |
| 18:32 | < huhwhozat> | ooh hey, more people than normal in channel it seems :D |
| 18:32 | < afny> | ja |
| 18:33 | < Mantisking> | Yeah, the last couple times I logged in it was a ghost-town. |
| 18:38 | < huhwhozat> | I want my bricklink orders to arrive |
| 18:38 | < huhwhozat> | now |
| 18:47 | < Mantisking> | I can understand that feeling. |
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| 19:10 | <+FerrelFerret_phone> | Yo. |
| 19:14 | < Mantisking> | Yo. |
| 19:14 | < neoaez1> | Hello. |
| 19:15 | <+FerrelFerret_phone> | How is everyone? |
| 19:17 | < Mantisking> | I'm doing okay. Just another lazy Sunday. |
| 19:18 | < neoaez1> | I am busy doing arts! |
| 19:18 | < neoaez1> | Need to get this split weapon system icons done. |
| 19:18 | <+FerrelFerret_phone> | Yeah, I'm just lazily waiting for my D&D game. |
| 19:20 | < huhwhozat> | neo, you were the one doing the stat cards recently, right? |
| 19:20 | < huhwhozat> | ferrel: what edition? |
| 19:20 | < neoaez1> | That would be me. |
| 19:23 | <+FerrelFerret_phone> | I'm playing 3.5 through In the Time of Heros online. |
| 19:24 | < afny> | I kept trying to get Ced to read this, but I don't think he did |
| 19:24 | < afny> | http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/what-we-can-learn-from-the-re-i ssued-first-edition-advanced-dungeons-and-dr |
| 19:24 | < afny> | if you're in to d&d at all I think it's a good read |
| 19:26 | | afny is now known as afny|away |
| 19:27 | <+FerrelFerret_phone> | Right now I'm listening to the new podcast with PA and PvP creating characters with D&D Next for the game at PAX this year. |
| 19:27 | < huhwhozat> | it was a good read! |
| 19:27 | < huhwhozat> | I agree with the sentiment, but in the games I've played, we've stayed away from rules-laeyering |
| 19:27 | < huhwhozat> | nice |
| 19:38 | < Mantisking> | Anyone talked to Ced recently? |
| 19:50 | < neoaez1> | Split weapon icons- > http://www.flickr.com/photos/73344611@N06/7767696900/in/photostream |
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| 19:54 | < Mantisking> | They look good. |
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| 19:59 | < neoaez1> | Thanks. |
| 20:00 | <@randolph> | Oop. |
| 20:00 | <@randolph> | Maybe I should've said something |
| 20:01 | <@randolph> | Soren's been working on some split-weapon icons |
| 20:01 | < neoaez1> | Heh |
| 20:01 | < neoaez1> | Oh well. |
| 20:01 | <@randolph> | I don't know how far he's gotten, or if he already finished |
| 20:01 | < neoaez1> | I can change 'em later. |
| 20:01 | <@randolph> | So if you needed them to do your project *now*, etc |
| 20:04 | <@randolph> | Ran my demo last night, will write something up today |
| 20:04 | < neoaez1> | Cool. I look forward to hearing how it went. |
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| 20:05 | <@randolph> | In summary, it went well, but there were suggestions on lowering the memorization burden on brand new players |
| 20:06 | <@randolph> | And I learned that I should reduce HtH for demo companies |
| 20:08 | < afny|away> | I'm still afraid of hth in demo companies |
| 20:08 | | afny|away is now known as afny |
| 20:08 | <@randolph> | Afraid why? |
| 20:08 | < afny> | hard to use |
| 20:08 | < afny> | afraid to give them to new players |
| 20:09 | <@randolph> | I agree with the sentiment, I'm just curious of your reasoning |
| 20:09 | <@randolph> | *about |
| 20:09 | < afny> | that is my reasoning lol |
| 20:09 | < afny> | it didn't get much deeper than that |
| 20:09 | <@randolph> | heh |
| 20:10 | < afny> | mostly it's just |
| 20:10 | < afny> | I think hth is fine, but you need to have a plan for it |
| 20:10 | < afny> | moreso than you do for direct fire or artillery |
| 20:10 | <@randolph> | In my case, it wasn't so much it was hard to use as it incentivized new players on Offense to murder the shit out of each other |
| 20:10 | < afny> | yea |
| 20:10 | <@randolph> | So it made it hard for them to win |
| 20:10 | < afny> | which isn't an effective use |
| 20:10 | < afny> | that's why all three of my demo companies are currently DF based with lots of greens |
| 20:11 | < afny> | incentivizes tactical advances and makes players think positionally |
| 20:11 | <@randolph> | I don't want to have *zero* Hth |
| 20:11 | <@randolph> | I think there needs to be at least 1 (or 2, in case the HtH guy gets completely gibbed before doing anything) |
| 20:11 | <@randolph> | But HtH-heavy is right out for me from now on for demo companies |
| 20:12 | < afny> | 2 IS hth heavy |
| 20:12 | < afny> | in a skirmish |
| 20:12 | < afny> | with 4 or 5 as the max team size |
| 20:12 | < afny> | I mean, I agree that it'd be cool to have |
| 20:12 | <@randolph> | I mean overall |
| 20:12 | <@randolph> | 2 out of the whole demo |
| 20:12 | < afny> | yea |
| 20:12 | <@randolph> | Either 2 on one team, or 1 on two teams |
| 20:12 | < afny> | I dunno, my demo kit is currently out of commission since I rebuilt two of those companies |
| 20:12 | < afny> | so when I pick out new frames/systems for it |
| 20:13 | < afny> | maybe I'll do one hth unit on the primary attackers |
| 20:13 | < afny> | a HTH Y Y B |
| 20:13 | < afny> | or maybe two |
| 20:13 | <@randolph> | Here's what I'm worried about there |
| 20:14 | <@randolph> | (putting it on primary attacker) |
| 20:14 | < afny> | agh I wanna build so bad |
| 20:14 | <@randolph> | Defender sets up perimeter |
| 20:14 | < afny> | I need to clean |
| 20:14 | <@randolph> | attacker puts up HtH |
| 20:14 | <@randolph> | middle attacker sets up |
| 20:14 | <@randolph> | Okay, now the "easy to reach" targets are all not Defenders |
| 20:14 | < afny> | yeah, I mean |
| 20:15 | < afny> | that hth frame is at risk if it is used wrong |
| 20:15 | < afny> | but giving it to the secondary attacker is just as bad |
| 20:15 | < afny> | that same thing will happen |
| 20:15 | <@randolph> | right, which is why I think it should be a Defender frame |
| 20:15 | < afny> | and I'm not going to split weapon types on the defending team if they only have three frames |
| 20:15 | < afny> | eh |
| 20:15 | < afny> | I'm not a fan of that with a three frame company |
| 20:15 | < afny> | especially because I like to try to get the defenders to give up stations early |
| 20:15 | <@randolph> | I think that in a brand-spanking-new player demo, barring catastrophic failure, the Defender wins by default |
| 20:16 | <@randolph> | 3p, at least |
| 20:16 | <@randolph> | Just because new players seem to be so focused on paying blood with blood |
| 20:16 | < afny> | that hasn't been my experience, and my intuition doesn't lead me that way either |
| 20:16 | < afny> | I guess it would go that way if the attackers didn't know to not attack eachother |
| 20:17 | <@randolph> | First thing they did, even though the Defender was in the lead, was to take a chunk out of each other for the temporary initiative lead. |
| 20:18 | < afny> | they sound like dumbasses |
| 20:18 | | * randolph shrugs |
| 20:18 | <@randolph> | I can't really distance myself from the strategic planning |
| 20:18 | <@randolph> | I don't know how intuitive or unintuitive it is |
| 20:19 | < afny> | The big thing I found that wasn't intuitive |
| 20:19 | < afny> | but once it's understood, really lets players sink their teeth into the game |
| 20:19 | < afny> | is asset value, and its implications on the game at different points |
| 20:19 | < afny> | so basically, let players know their asset value, and let everyone ELSE see it |
| 20:19 | < afny> | maybe give each player their AV written in big ass marker on an index card and put it down on the table |
| 20:20 | < afny> | and really hammer home how that number will alter their score as the game goes on |
| 20:20 | <@randolph> | Yeah, that's something under "decrease memorization burden" |
| 20:20 | <@randolph> | nod |
| 20:20 | < afny> | that number will drastically alter the way you play |
| 20:20 | < afny> | and if you don't understand its importance, you can't really formulate an effective strat |
| 20:20 | <@randolph> | Part of it, I think, is that until the frames met in combat, they really had no idea just how devastating a HtH scrum would be |
| 20:20 | < afny> | yea |
| 20:21 | <@randolph> | And then it was on, and they can't disengage |
| 20:21 | <@randolph> | Are you going to pull out? And leave yourself open? |
| 20:22 | <@randolph> | So really, as long as I stayed out of the way, I didn't need to do anything other than drop some spots for them to kill each other (I was Defender - I had a third guy wanting to play, but he ended up taking much longer doing whatever else he was playing, so the two new players asked me to play the Defenders instead) |
| 20:24 | < afny> | I think if they understood AV and initiative, they might've been less likely to do that |
| 20:25 | < afny> | but it isn't readily apparent until you've played a game |
| 20:28 | < afny> | also |
| 20:28 | < afny> | Joshua confused the fuck out of me with this response |
| 20:28 | < afny> | to the station soaking damage thread |
| 20:28 | < afny> | I totally thought I understood that rule |
| 20:29 | <@randolph> | Me too |
| 20:29 | <@randolph> | I'd ask a clarification in precise language, but I tend to get "lol ruleslawyer" responses when I do that |
| 20:30 | <@randolph> | Which seems really counterproductive when you're trying to get a super-solid product for mass consumption |
| 20:30 | < afny> | I think adorablerocket has this one covered |
| 20:31 | < afny> | just gotta wait for a response |
| 20:31 | <@randolph> | I thought it was just "you can dodgeroll away from a station to avoid a hit" which is simple, elegant, and doesn't have weird exceptions |
| 20:31 | <@randolph> | Now it's about 3 layers more complex |
| 20:31 | < afny> | yea |
| 20:31 | < afny> | I thought it was any frame and any station |
| 20:31 | <@randolph> | yeah |
| 20:32 | < afny> | at any time the frame would take damage |
| 20:32 | <@randolph> | grabbing some lunch bbl |
| 20:32 | < Mantisking> | I think things tend to be more complext than they seem when it comes to the rules for MFZ. |
| 20:33 | < Mantisking> | It's like an onion. |
| 20:33 | < afny> | usually in a good way, though |
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| 20:33 | < afny> | not in a "this is more complex but we didn't tell you" way |
| 20:33 | < Mantisking> | True. |
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| 22:41 | < DeathZero> | yo. |
| 22:45 | <@randolph> | hey |
| 22:49 | < DeathZero> | sup |
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| 23:47 | | FerrelFerret [AndChat4505@Nightstar-3001fd45.tmodns.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Bye] |
| 23:47 | | FerrelFerret [AndChat4505@Nightstar-3001fd45.tmodns.net] has joined #mf0 |
| 23:47 | | mode/#mf0 [+v FerrelFerret] by ChanServ |
| 23:50 | | FerrelFerret [AndChat4505@Nightstar-3001fd45.tmodns.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Bye] |
| 23:50 | | FerrelFerret [AndChat4505@Nightstar-3001fd45.tmodns.net] has joined #mf0 |
| 23:50 | | mode/#mf0 [+v FerrelFerret] by ChanServ |
| 23:50 | | FerrelFerret [AndChat4505@Nightstar-3001fd45.tmodns.net] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 23:57 | | FerrelFerret_phone [AndChat4505@Nightstar-3001fd45.tmodns.net] has quit [Connection closed] |
| --- Log closed Mon Aug 13 00:00:58 2012 |