| --- Log opened Mon Aug 13 00:00:58 2012 |
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| 02:40 | < afny> | GAH |
| 02:40 | < afny> | God damn that station rule |
| 02:40 | < afny> | Joshua needs to stop posting rules corrections while high |
| 02:41 | < afny> | he's messing with my head. |
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| 03:56 | <@randolph> | haha oh god that station rule |
| 03:56 | <@randolph> | It's like a Monty Python sketch |
| 03:59 | < afny> | and now |
| 03:59 | < afny> | for something completely different |
| 03:59 | | * afny blows up the station |
| 03:59 | < neoaezZzz> | =) |
| 03:59 | | neoaezZzz is now known as neoaez |
| 03:59 | < afny> | I totally rules lawyered myself into using the enemy's stations to soak |
| 03:59 | < afny> | in past games |
| 04:00 | < afny> | but in my defense, it was NOT clear from the rules. |
| 04:00 | < neoaez> | Suuure |
| 04:00 | < afny> | the early backer draft |
| 04:00 | <@randolph> | Based on the original rules, and it's not rules lawyering from the text, imo, if you have two stations close to each other, you can soak infinitely |
| 04:00 | < afny> | makes no mention of ownership |
| 04:00 | < afny> | yeah |
| 04:00 | < afny> | and that's exactly what I did |
| 04:00 | <@randolph> | Hell, even if you HAVE ownership |
| 04:01 | <@randolph> | I think it's a wonky rule that should go entirely |
| 04:01 | <@randolph> | Mantis said, in all of Mechaton, he'd never heard of anyone ever using that rule |
| 04:01 | < afny> | it's a pretty major rule |
| 04:01 | < afny> | I mean, it seems like it would see a lot of use |
| 04:01 | < neoaez> | I think the intent is not to put yourself in double-jeopardy -- losing a frame and a station in one fell-swoop. |
| 04:01 | <@randolph> | You'd think, but Mantis has a lot more experience |
| 04:02 | < afny> | maybe it wasn't in mechaton? |
| 04:02 | <@randolph> | neoaez: Sure, so leave then, instead of camping. |
| 04:02 | <@randolph> | If you don't want to put yourself in double-jeopardy, you had the option already. |
| 04:02 | < neoaez> | I'm not defending the rule. Just why I think they tried to include it. |
| 04:02 | < afny> | I think it makes more sense if only the station owner can use it |
| 04:02 | < neoaez> | I'd have to double-check my Mechaton book, but I don't think it was in there. |
| 04:03 | < afny> | it incentivizes giving up stations |
| 04:03 | < afny> | which I am for |
| 04:03 | <@randolph> | Right, but you can still do station loops :p |
| 04:03 | < afny> | you mean hopping from one to the other? |
| 04:03 | <@randolph> | Yeah |
| 04:03 | < afny> | it's true, but you still suffer the initiative penalty |
| 04:03 | < afny> | before you can "hop back" |
| 04:03 | <@randolph> | No, I mean |
| 04:03 | < afny> | and when you do hop back, there is no guarantee that you will be the only one there |
| 04:04 | <@randolph> | S1 - F - S2 |
| 04:04 | < afny> | so you won't retake the station |
| 04:04 | <@randolph> | someone shoots me, I roll towards S1, because I'm 'rolling away from S2' |
| 04:04 | <@randolph> | Someone shoots me again, I roll towards S2 because I'm 'rolling away from S1' |
| 04:04 | < afny> | using just the soak rule, right |
| 04:04 | <@randolph> | whether or not I've gone |
| 04:04 | < afny> | not your movement? |
| 04:04 | <@randolph> | rigth |
| 04:04 | < afny> | yeah |
| 04:04 | <@randolph> | flat DR1 |
| 04:04 | < afny> | well |
| 04:04 | <@randolph> | that's really strong |
| 04:04 | < afny> | I dunno, I'm fine with that |
| 04:05 | < afny> | I mean, it only works if they don't actually close in to take the stations |
| 04:05 | <@randolph> | That doesn't have to be your only frame |
| 04:05 | <@randolph> | If multiple frames are there, they can't ever dislodge you |
| 04:05 | < neoaez> | I don't see that rule in my Mechaton book. |
| 04:05 | < afny> | sure they can |
| 04:05 | < afny> | they can hit you for more than one systems worth of damage |
| 04:05 | <@randolph> | yeah, and meanwhile,I'm shooting back |
| 04:05 | < afny> | or they can get into range |
| 04:05 | < afny> | and you won't recap the station |
| 04:06 | < afny> | when they hop out |
| 04:06 | <@randolph> | I'm not LOSING the station the first time |
| 04:06 | <@randolph> | S1 - A, B, C - S2 |
| 04:06 | < afny> | yeah, I get you |
| 04:06 | <@randolph> | You shoot A, B and C are still there |
| 04:06 | < afny> | but it's not a sustainable defense |
| 04:06 | <@randolph> | I don't have to sustain forever |
| 04:06 | <@randolph> | I've just gained a DR1 buff over you, while you have to advance |
| 04:06 | < afny> | the one system damage soak isn't that strong |
| 04:06 | <@randolph> | It totally is |
| 04:07 | < afny> | I dunno, I mean |
| 04:07 | < afny> | it's a benefit |
| 04:07 | <@randolph> | 2d6 red + 1d6 spot vs. 2d6 defense is EV 1.2 systems damaged, with variance of 1.21 systems |
| 04:07 | < afny> | but in a three player game |
| 04:07 | <@randolph> | -1 flat DR is *huge* |
| 04:07 | < afny> | you're not going to be in cover to everyone even if you're hopping |
| 04:08 | <@randolph> | Cover, right. You bring me to the double-blue company I've been plotting |
| 04:08 | < afny> | also |
| 04:08 | <@randolph> | The only guy not in permacover is the one in front, and careful positioning means he dodgerolls into cover |
| 04:08 | < afny> | what about a rule that says you only get one hop per activation? |
| 04:08 | <@randolph> | Does it say that? Checking |
| 04:08 | < afny> | no, it doesn't |
| 04:09 | < afny> | I mean, would that overcomplicate things |
| 04:09 | < afny> | because it DOES seem like there's some unplumbed cheese with that rule |
| 04:09 | <@randolph> | It would mean one more thing to remember. it would be inelegant. |
| 04:09 | <@randolph> | I'd rather just prune it entirely |
| 04:09 | <@randolph> | I didn't even know it*existed* until Geordan read the pdf |
| 04:09 | <@randolph> | And none of the sims or battle reports used it |
| 04:10 | <@randolph> | I don't think it's necessary, and it adds way too much cheese, OR requires a ton of rules kludging to make it less cheesetastic |
| 04:12 | <@randolph> | I guess it's best to just run a company that abuses the shit out of it and post the battle report |
| 04:12 | < afny> | yeah, hm |
| 04:12 | < afny> | I like the rule in concept but there is nothing in the rules currently to prevent hopping |
| 04:12 | < afny> | and while I don't think it's guaranteed to make you win |
| 04:12 | < afny> | it is pretty strong if you happen to get your stations placed behind good cover |
| 04:13 | <@randolph> | Or are defender, using double-blues. |
| 04:13 | <@randolph> | Just tick down like mad. |
| 04:13 | <@randolph> | You don't even have to attack |
| 04:13 | < afny> | you don't have to be the defender, you just have to have initiative |
| 04:13 | <@randolph> | Right, but if you *are* Defender, it means you don't have to go to the trouble ofgetting init first |
| 04:13 | <@randolph> | So you can start the game in your ideal position |
| 04:16 | < afny> | I was thinking you'd have your artillery or split attackers on defense |
| 04:16 | < afny> | holding your initial stations with hopping |
| 04:16 | < afny> | and the rest of your DF/hth our claiming stations |
| 04:16 | < afny> | out* |
| 04:16 | < afny> | either way it's a scary rule |
| 04:16 | < afny> | anyway, benadryl. |
| 04:16 | < afny> | I'm going to bed. |
| 04:16 | <@randolph> | yeah. so, I think the general sentiment is, if all these people are winning WITHOUT the rule |
| 04:16 | < afny> | o7 |
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| 04:17 | <@randolph> | It's not something the Defender needs in addition to that |
| 04:17 | <@randolph> | oy heh |
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| 08:53 | <@randolph> | hey ced |
| 08:57 | <@Ced23Ric> | Heya Randy! :? |
| 08:57 | <@Ced23Ric> | * :) |
| 08:58 | <@randolph> | heh |
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| 15:33 | < huhwhozat> | randolph: me likey your MF0 probability/effectiveness tool |
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| 16:50 | < DeathZero> | good mornin folks. |
| 16:59 | < huhwhozat> | yello |
| 17:00 | < huhwhozat> | hee |
| 17:00 | < DeathZero> | sup man |
| 17:01 | < huhwhozat> | I just came up with archetype names for an Ijad battleforce I'm planning |
| 17:01 | < DeathZero> | cool. |
| 17:01 | < huhwhozat> | unfortunately, I ended up stealing from starcraft |
| 17:01 | < DeathZero> | lol. |
| 17:01 | < huhwhozat> | not because I was particularly uninspired, but because they were apropriate |
| 17:02 | < huhwhozat> | Interdictor, Executor, Adjudicator |
| 17:02 | < DeathZero> | If thats what fits then awesome. |
| 17:04 | < huhwhozat> | Interdictors intercept the enemy, adjudicators do the spotting, executors make it rain lead :D |
| 17:04 | < DeathZero> | cool |
| 17:04 | < DeathZero> | make anything good from your PAB haul? |
| 17:04 | < huhwhozat> | a forest of bamboo :P |
| 17:04 | < DeathZero> | lol. |
| 17:05 | < huhwhozat> | nothing else yet; still waiting on parts from bricklink - some whould arrive today |
| 17:05 | < huhwhozat> | *should |
| 17:05 | < huhwhozat> | There'll be a bunch of 2x2 tan briks in there, so I'll build some terrain |
| 17:05 | < DeathZero> | I made a couple sections of terrain with a river/stream through em. |
| 17:06 | < huhwhozat> | I'll have to wait a while for the other two orders to come and bring me the parts I need for frames |
| 17:06 | < huhwhozat> | neat |
| 17:06 | < huhwhozat> | rivers are cool |
| 17:06 | < DeathZero> | wanted to use all those blue tiles I got. |
| 17:07 | < huhwhozat> | nice. I don't remember seeing those at the PAB |
| 17:07 | < huhwhozat> | I certainly didn't grab any :P |
| 17:07 | < DeathZero> | 1x8 blue tiles. |
| 17:07 | < huhwhozat> | those were def. not at the PAB |
| 17:07 | < DeathZero> | yea |
| 17:07 | < huhwhozat> | ... were they? |
| 17:07 | < DeathZero> | they were |
| 17:07 | < huhwhozat> | .... X.x |
| 17:08 | < DeathZero> | I got a couple handfuls. I showed em to you and said these would be good for water. |
| 17:08 | < huhwhozat> | herpaderp? |
| 17:08 | < DeathZero> | you must have been looking at something else at the time. |
| 17:08 | < huhwhozat> | I must have not been braining or I woulda grabbes some |
| 17:08 | < huhwhozat> | yeah |
| 17:08 | < DeathZero> | lol |
| 17:08 | < huhwhozat> | ho well there'll be other times |
| 17:09 | < DeathZero> | yea. |
| 17:09 | < huhwhozat> | speaking of... I'm headed to Cinicinatti over Labor Day weekend |
| 17:09 | < huhwhozat> | while I'm in the area, I'll check the store there ofc. :D |
| 17:09 | < DeathZero> | cool |
| 17:11 | < huhwhozat> | so I'm toying with the idea of a stationary attack force. Wondering If it'd work |
| 17:11 | < huhwhozat> | it'd be tough to pull off, put fun to try |
| 17:12 | < huhwhozat> | hokay lunch time |
| 17:12 | < huhwhozat> | bbl |
| 17:12 | < DeathZero> | later man |
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| 17:33 | < afny> | oh god |
| 17:34 | < afny> | there's a BOOK in the station damage soak thread now |
| 17:34 | < afny> | I want that rule to just go back to being simple and exploitable. |
| 17:35 | < afny> | ah, looks like huhwhozat brought up the hopping exploit |
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| 17:50 | < DeathZero> | I saw, its a freakin mess in there now |
| 17:51 | < afny> | It's STILL not clear |
| 17:51 | < afny> | though some fringe cases have been settled |
| 17:51 | < afny> | Joshua seems to think that the rules say you can't place your stations closer than DF range |
| 17:51 | < afny> | and, if that is true |
| 17:52 | < DeathZero> | I saw, also saw your question/response to that. |
| 17:52 | < afny> | you also can't place them more than direct fire range apart |
| 17:52 | < afny> | so it's like |
| 17:52 | < afny> | you have to use a straight ruler |
| 17:52 | < afny> | and radiate outward |
| 17:52 | < afny> | it's weird! |
| 17:53 | < afny> | really, though |
| 17:53 | < afny> | I hope that IS the case |
| 17:53 | < afny> | because it means it's a lot harder to abuse asymmetrical maps |
| 17:54 | < DeathZero> | whatcha mean? |
| 17:55 | < afny> | well |
| 17:55 | < afny> | if you can't group your stations |
| 17:55 | < afny> | it's a lot harder to clump all your assets in a good position |
| 17:55 | < afny> | you can still clump your FRAMES, but you leave stations open to a snatch and grab |
| 17:56 | < afny> | so, like |
| 17:56 | < afny> | on a map with a lot of cover in one slice |
| 17:56 | < afny> | you could, by my old reading of the rules |
| 17:56 | < DeathZero> | I got ya. |
| 17:56 | < afny> | clump up all your stations there |
| 17:56 | < afny> | and some of your frames |
| 17:57 | < huhwhozat> | oh boy, I completely muddied the water, didn't I? |
| 17:58 | < afny> | nah, randolph and I were discussing the same exploit |
| 17:58 | < afny> | it needed to be brought up |
| 17:58 | < DeathZero> | I'm in the habit of trying to make boards symmetrical, as far as cover goes. I guess thats a habit from playing 40k. I like having the cover evenly spread where it doesn't give any one person the advantage. |
| 17:59 | < afny> | I like radial symmetry |
| 17:59 | < afny> | as opposed to bilateral |
| 17:59 | < afny> | circular maps are where it's at |
| 18:00 | < huhwhozat> | but what's all this about stations NOT being within direct fire each other? The current draft seems to indicate they MUST be within DF range |
| 18:00 | < afny> | yea |
| 18:00 | < afny> | I asked about that |
| 18:00 | < afny> | it's confusing as hell |
| 18:01 | < afny> | apparently they must be EXACTLY the direct fire limit away from eachother |
| 18:01 | < DeathZero> | I think Joshua likes to contradict himself sometimes. |
| 18:01 | < afny> | but that's confusing as hell when you have three stations |
| 18:01 | < afny> | I mean, do they ALL have to be exactly df range from eachother? |
| 18:01 | < DeathZero> | triangle! o_o |
| 18:01 | < afny> | or do you just use the middle one as a hinge? |
| 18:01 | < afny> | but if that's the case |
| 18:01 | < afny> | there are SURELY going to be enemy frames in the way |
| 18:02 | < huhwhozat> | but, I thought the DF range restrict on stations applies only to the defender anyway? |
| 18:02 | < afny> | hm |
| 18:02 | < afny> | is it under the "defender placement" section of the rules? |
| 18:03 | < afny> | I thought it applied to everyone, but I don't have them open now |
| 18:03 | < huhwhozat> | it is specifically under Initial defense section |
| 18:04 | < afny> | is there another section about attacker station placement? |
| 18:04 | < afny> | sorry, I don't actually have a copy of the new rules |
| 18:04 | < afny> | it won't open in preview so I just go to the forum thread and open it in chrome |
| 18:04 | < afny> | I should really bookmark it |
| 18:04 | < huhwhozat> | as for the attacker/s, the only statement is 'try not to place it within direct fire range of any opponents' mobile frames, but this might not always be possible' |
| 18:04 | < huhwhozat> | direct quote |
| 18:05 | < afny> | yeah |
| 18:05 | < afny> | :| |
| 18:05 | < afny> | ambiguous |
| 18:05 | < huhwhozat> | I think it's pretty clear from that, they can go whereever the f* you want |
| 18:06 | < huhwhozat> | avoiding enemy frames, though if possible |
| 18:07 | < afny> | yeah, from that |
| 18:07 | < afny> | but not from this new info |
| 18:07 | < huhwhozat> | defender: "Place your stations on the battlefield. Place them wherever you want, but within direct fire range of one another." |
| 18:07 | < huhwhozat> | haven't read all the posts yet... |
| 18:08 | < huhwhozat> | Joshua: "I believe the rules explicitly say that you can't put stations less than direct range from each other" |
| 18:08 | < huhwhozat> | I think he means h2h range here: 'less than df' being less than the lower bound of df |
| 18:09 | < huhwhozat> | in that case the statement makes sense |
| 18:09 | < afny> | aagh |
| 18:13 | < DeathZero> | blarg |
| 18:15 | | * huhwhozat votes to remove stations entirely :P |
| 18:16 | < huhwhozat> | (jk of course) |
| 18:16 | | afny is now known as afny|away |
| 18:19 | < huhwhozat> | hokay, finally caught up on last night's logs discussing this :P |
| 18:20 | < huhwhozat> | I've been toying with an most/all arty attacker company idea, and then saw how this rule could apply and it turned 'sploity |
| 18:20 | < huhwhozat> | you win if you waste ALL your oppent's frame before doomsday, no >:D ? |
| 18:21 | < huhwhozat> | *opponents' frames |
| 18:22 | < huhwhozat> | I want to play a round that's just like "man, f* initiative; who needs initiative?" and just blow the pants out of the defender and see if it works! :D |
| 18:22 | < huhwhozat> | def. would work better in a 2 player game :P |
| 20:32 | < DeathZero> | hey whozat, just got my order with all my 1x1 black plates :D |
| 20:33 | <@randolph> | (10:20:52 AM) huhwhozat: you win if you waste ALL your oppent's frame before doomsday, no >:D ? |
| 20:33 | <@randolph> | Actually, no. Highest initiative wins when the DDC hits 0, doesn't matter whether you have frames left |
| 20:35 | < huhwhozat> | nice, death |
| 20:36 | < huhwhozat> | randolph: blarr |
| 20:36 | < afny|away> | theoretically you could valiantly sacrifice all your frames to claim 5 out of 6 stations |
| 20:36 | < huhwhozat> | if there's no one left on the battlefield that should be a victory :D |
| 20:36 | < huhwhozat> | hee |
| 20:36 | | afny|away is now known as afny |
| 20:36 | < afny> | well I think in MOST cases it would play out like that |
| 20:36 | < afny> | because frames have an asset value |
| 20:36 | < afny> | and count toward your initiative |
| 20:37 | < huhwhozat> | "We can take the objectives AFTER we pacify the rebels everyone" - Solar Union |
| 20:37 | < afny> | but if a player has a high AV and lots of stations but no frames when the clock his zero |
| 20:37 | < afny> | those stations might add up to more than the player with frames left, but a low asset value |
| 20:37 | < huhwhozat> | yeah, I get the mechanics, it's just funny |
| 20:38 | < huhwhozat> | I'd still like to play out a game like that, win or lose |
| 20:38 | < afny> | not really, considering MFZ only ever covers a battle |
| 20:38 | < afny> | and not a war |
| 20:38 | < afny> | I guess it depends on what your stations represent, as well |
| 20:38 | < afny> | I mean, it could get a little ridiculous |
| 20:40 | < huhwhozat> | but surely the peach farms would be vulnerable after their guard is destroyed! :P |
| 20:40 | < afny> | Hey, Joshua answered one of the station placement questions in another thread |
| 20:40 | < afny> | you can only pick so many peaches before reinforcements arrive |
| 20:40 | < huhwhozat> | lol |
| 20:41 | < huhwhozat> | 'another thread'? |
| 20:41 | < huhwhozat> | link? |
| 20:41 | < afny> | http://www.mobileframehangar.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1925 |
| 20:41 | < afny> | it's the top one |
| 20:41 | < afny> | still confused, though |
| 20:41 | < afny> | about the minimum distance |
| 20:41 | < huhwhozat> | I see |
| 20:41 | < afny> | oh, he responded |
| 20:41 | < afny> | but it's long |
| 20:41 | < afny> | I'll read it after lunch |
| 20:42 | < huhwhozat> | gah he must've just posted |
| 20:42 | < huhwhozat> | I check like 10 min ago |
| 20:42 | < huhwhozat> | *checked |
| 20:45 | <@randolph> | oh god |
| 20:45 | <@randolph> | Just in direct fire range of ONE |
| 20:45 | <@randolph> | That means a Defender can deny most of the battlefield, bottling up the attackers |
| 20:48 | <@randolph> | Ok, so now he's saying "stations must be within Direct Fire range" he means "exclusively Direct Fire range," which is NOT INTUITIVE AT ALL |
| 20:49 | <@randolph> | To normal people, "Within Direct Fire range" -> "Within 8U" |
| 20:49 | <@randolph> | er |
| 20:49 | <@randolph> | yeah |
| 20:49 | < afny> | yea |
| 20:49 | < afny> | so what does he mean |
| 20:49 | < afny> | I didn't read it yet |
| 20:49 | <@randolph> | He menas |
| 20:50 | <@randolph> | "Stations must be in Direct Fire Range from each other, as in, if they had Direct Fire attachments, they could shoot each other" |
| 20:50 | <@randolph> | i.e. "Not within HtH' |
| 20:50 | < afny> | oh |
| 20:50 | < afny> | well |
| 20:50 | < afny> | hm |
| 20:50 | <@randolph> | That's SO unintuitive from the text |
| 20:50 | < afny> | doesn't that STILL allow for hopping?! |
| 20:50 | <@randolph> | Yes, but he's okay with that gambit |
| 20:50 | <@randolph> | But |
| 20:50 | <@randolph> | Here's my beef now |
| 20:51 | <@randolph> | One of two things is occurring: 1) There are a bunch of holes in the rules that J&V didn't think of, but J keeps trying to interpret the text for on-the-fly rulings in order to maintain the facade of "we thought of that" |
| 20:52 | <@randolph> | 2) They actually thought of all those things, but they have such alien concepts of natural language that the rules text doesn't resemble the real rules |
| 20:52 | < afny> | not that I don't trust J as a game designer, but I would appreciate a response from Vincent on this issue |
| 20:52 | < afny> | just because his posts are usually more legible |
| 20:52 | <@randolph> | Yeah, but he's not had the best track record of understanding when we post corner cases either |
| 20:52 | <@randolph> | I had to post an image. |
| 20:54 | < afny> | there were problems with both sides not using explicit language |
| 20:54 | <@randolph> | There's this defensive vibe I'm getting of "Guys, the rules really are fine as-is" paired with on-the-fly rulings in posts |
| 20:54 | < afny> | but it did get resolved |
| 20:54 | <@randolph> | I used super explicit language, at least two different ways |
| 20:54 | < afny> | yeah, but not at first |
| 20:54 | < afny> | I didn't have a horse in that race, but it was clear neither side really understood what the other one was saying |
| 20:54 | < afny> | and he wasn't actually exasperated |
| 20:55 | <@randolph> | I understood exactly what everyone else in that thread was saying, I don't know what you mean by that |
| 20:55 | < afny> | if I recall it had to do with using the word "ambush |
| 20:55 | < afny> | " to mean something specific |
| 20:55 | <@randolph> | After all the chips were down, none of my interpretations of other people's positions changed |
| 20:56 | <@randolph> | yeah, so you're saying "because an earlier post had imprecise language, they get a pass at ignoring the later, precise language?" :p |
| 20:57 | <@randolph> | You'd have to skip reading entire (short, concise) posts to do that. |
| 20:57 | | Mercutio [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-9fb24864.nj.comcast.net] has joined #mf0 |
| 20:57 | < huhwhozat> | so... what I'm hearing is that we should get together and play a station hopping game, battle report it, and link Joshua to it. :P |
| 20:57 | <@randolph> | Hey mercutio |
| 20:57 | < afny> | sorry, was getting my sandwich |
| 20:57 | < Mercutio> | Hi. Haven't used IRC in a LONG LONG time |
| 20:57 | < afny> | uhh, what I was saying was |
| 20:57 | < afny> | V went back and did address the precise language |
| 20:58 | < afny> | and he made it clear that he wasn't actually exasperated, he was just joking around |
| 20:58 | <@randolph> | He addressed the precise language after not understanding the question and posting a response to not-the-question-we-asked |
| 20:58 | <@randolph> | AFTER I then posted a picture. |
| 20:59 | <@randolph> | I mean, sure, skimming, he's not obligated to read anything. |
| 20:59 | <@randolph> | He's fully within his rights not to read or answer anything at all. |
| 20:59 | < huhwhozat> | randolph, speaking of imprecise language, I didn't understand that entire train of thought X.x |
| 20:59 | < afny> | yeah, it was confusing as fuck :D |
| 21:00 | < afny> | but anyway, I wish he'd respond to this one |
| 21:00 | < huhwhozat> | yeah |
| 21:00 | < afny> | because I can usually read what he rights suspecting him of being drunk |
| 21:00 | < afny> | er... |
| 21:00 | < afny> | writes |
| 21:00 | <@randolph> | It's just frustrating that we're trying to help THEIR baby get the polish it deserves, and the single burning question is posted by itself in a post, without other crap in that post, but they make the question even more confusing by answering something else entirely. |
| 21:00 | < afny> | on the other hand I can't write without appearing drunk, so |
| 21:00 | < huhwhozat> | randolph: agreed |
| 21:01 | < afny> | eh |
| 21:01 | < afny> | I don't expect them to reply in a way that makes it easiest for us |
| 21:01 | < afny> | as long as the ambiguities get addressed in the printed draft |
| 21:01 | < huhwhozat> | but then again, being fallible humans ... |
| 21:01 | | * huhwhozat shrugs |
| 21:01 | < afny> | and even then, most of the time our questions ARE settled |
| 21:01 | <@randolph> | Except some of these ambiguities were raised after the first pdf, afny, and they didn't get into this one |
| 21:01 | < afny> | just not necessarily right away, or in the most convenient place |
| 21:01 | < afny> | well yeah, i think that's the fallible humans part |
| 21:02 | <@randolph> | We're internet geeks. Crowdsourced OCD |
| 21:02 | < huhwhozat> | so we should obviously crowdsource the rules |
| 21:02 | <@randolph> | You can overcome the falliability by leveraging that |
| 21:02 | < huhwhozat> | because fallibility + fallibility = perfect :D |
| 21:02 | < afny> | I have faith that these things will be addressed before the publication |
| 21:02 | <@randolph> | no, because as eyes approach infinity, defects approaches zero |
| 21:02 | < huhwhozat> | I kid, I kid :D |
| 21:03 | < huhwhozat> | I do think it would be good to have a crowdsourced errata doc |
| 21:03 | < Mercutio> | Well, it's going to be CC-BY-NC-SA, right? |
| 21:03 | < huhwhozat> | compiling and detailing what's been said in the forums |
| 21:04 | <@randolph> | I think that's inelegant as hell :P |
| 21:04 | < huhwhozat> | yeah, well... |
| 21:04 | <@randolph> | Or do you mean, temporarily, between drafts? |
| 21:04 | < afny> | yeah, but no one is going to want to republish it just to fix some errors :P |
| 21:04 | < huhwhozat> | I mean after pub, if there are still qn's |
| 21:04 | <@randolph> | afny: That's what's frustrating! We can catch all this shit NOW before publication |
| 21:04 | <@randolph> | [1] for values of "all" meaning "most" |
| 21:04 | < huhwhozat> | ah I see. |
| 21:04 | < afny> | I'm not worried |
| 21:05 | < huhwhozat> | yes that is frustrating |
| 21:05 | < afny> | I mean, things are getting addressed all the time |
| 21:05 | < afny> | and it isn't like there is a publication deadline hanging over their heads next week |
| 21:05 | <@randolph> | -____- |
| 21:05 | < huhwhozat> | I wonder when they ARE planning to go to pub |
| 21:05 | < afny> | I'd be worried if they were brushing off the concerns |
| 21:05 | <@randolph> | ok, well, I'll get off the subject, because I'm getting worked up |
| 21:05 | < afny> | but they're not, they're responding in depth any time there is confusing |
| 21:05 | < afny> | maybe not in a way that's COMPLETELY legible, I admit |
| 21:06 | <@randolph> | in unrelated news, Hecarim is in the free LoL rotation until tomorrow, and is a blast to play |
| 21:06 | <@randolph> | If you haven't tried him, I suggest it |
| 21:06 | < afny> | urgh |
| 21:06 | < afny> | I'm probably still burned out |
| 21:06 | <@randolph> | Heh np |
| 21:07 | < huhwhozat> | oooh I should try HEc |
| 21:07 | <@randolph> | I haven't played in awhile, but since I was at Riot for the game night, we played a few rounds |
| 21:07 | < huhwhozat> | I still haven't hit 30 :P |
| 21:07 | <@randolph> | hehe |
| 21:07 | < huhwhozat> | I'm like what... lv24ish? |
| 21:08 | <@randolph> | Varus is also free this week (newish champ) |
| 21:08 | < huhwhozat> | ah cool, ain't tried him yet |
| 21:08 | < huhwhozat> | I've been playing waaay too much Mumu lately |
| 21:09 | <@randolph> | ahaha at your comic on the stream huhwhozat |
| 21:09 | < huhwhozat> | :D |
| 21:10 | <@randolph> | nice trees too |
| 21:10 | < huhwhozat> | it was pretty funny in game. The little buggers WOULD NOT DIE |
| 21:10 | < huhwhozat> | I kept getting d6's on white :D |
| 21:10 | <@randolph> | ooh, deepcope has some NICE damaged stone walls |
| 21:11 | < afny> | I've been a fan of deepcopes builds for a while now |
| 21:11 | < afny> | really unique flavor |
| 21:12 | <@randolph> | It's been hit-and-miss for me, but I clearly have strange tastes |
| 21:17 | < afny> | I like the outlines |
| 21:17 | < afny> | always interesting shapes |
| 21:21 | < huhwhozat> | whoah somone else just did a massive imgdump. I apologize for mine btw, didn't realize I hadn't been posting to the group, being new to flickr and all |
| 21:22 | < huhwhozat> | those damaged walls are very slick |
| 21:23 | < Mercutio> | I'm trolling through ihavenotimeforthis' image dump. |
| 21:24 | < afny> | it's a bit macabre |
| 21:24 | < afny> | all those dismembered figs... |
| 21:24 | < Mercutio> | Looks like he suffers from my affliction -- not having enough of the right pieces for good building |
| 21:24 | < Mercutio> | They look rather fragile, to boot. |
| 21:27 | < huhwhozat> | That's where I'm at, but not for long! My last bricklink order just got marked as shipped :D |
| 21:27 | < huhwhozat> | now to wait on USPS |
| 21:27 | < DeathZero> | I placed two small orders thursday and got em today. |
| 21:30 | < huhwhozat> | so what do you have planned for those 1x1's death? |
| 21:31 | < Mercutio> | Depending on what happens around Christmas time, bricklink is high on my list of places to spend a few bucks. |
| 21:32 | < huhwhozat> | mercutio, I don't believe I have my eye on your flickr if you have one |
| 21:33 | < Mercutio> | I have not yet posted anything to it, although I did register to follow the MF0 feed |
| 21:33 | < Mercutio> | I have a company of 6 frames I've managed to cobble together that aren't awful. I'll be posting those soonish. |
| 21:33 | < huhwhozat> | there are a LOT of users with mercutio on flickr.... |
| 21:34 | < huhwhozat> | ok so only 37, but yeah |
| 21:34 | < Mercutio> | I think I'm registered under cameron.mount |
| 21:35 | < huhwhozat> | I'm kinda obsessing about following the MF0 stream now. It's bad. |
| 21:35 | < Mercutio> | My wife is getting annoyed when I point to lego sets on sale while we're shopping |
| 21:36 | < Mercutio> | BJs had a trash truck that looked like it had some decent bricks for about 7 cents a brick |
| 21:36 | < afny> | hm, I should check BJs |
| 21:36 | < afny> | I don't like shopping at wal-mart so I don't usually buy sets |
| 21:36 | < Mercutio> | Walmart by me is complete crap |
| 21:37 | < huhwhozat> | BJ's? |
| 21:37 | < afny> | it's a wholesale club |
| 21:37 | < Mercutio> | BJ's Wholesale |
| 21:37 | < afny> | like sam's club but better |
| 21:37 | < huhwhozat> | cool |
| 21:37 | < Mercutio> | Like Sam's Club or Costco |
| 21:37 | < Mercutio> | Target by me doesn't seem to send lego to clearance |
| 21:37 | < Mercutio> | Best place I've found near me is actually a Books-a-Million |
| 21:38 | < afny> | we've got a TJ Max that sometimes has stuff |
| 21:38 | < afny> | I hate trolling retail for lego though |
| 21:38 | < Mercutio> | I've looked in Marshall's but haven't found anything good yet. |
| 21:39 | < Mercutio> | I would just buy from bricklink now had I the liquid funds. |
| 21:39 | < afny> | all tied up in bills, eh? |
| 21:39 | < afny> | I have a juicer for that. |
| 21:39 | < afny> | it comes out a bit pulpy though. |
| 21:39 | < Mercutio> | Bills all around |
| 21:39 | < Mercutio> | Yeah. |
| 21:40 | < Mercutio> | That and adjunct college professors get paid crap. |
| 21:40 | < Mercutio> | No full-time jobs to be had. Each opening I hear of and apply for gets in the neighborhood of 200+ applications |
| 21:41 | < afny> | yeah, it's a bad time for education on pretty much every level right now |
| 21:49 | < afny> | Okay, Mercutio |
| 21:49 | < afny> | I was polling people in another channel yesterday |
| 21:49 | < afny> | what's the best Shakespeare film adaptation that preserves the text? |
| 21:50 | < afny> | you must have an opinion on this |
| 21:50 | < Mercutio> | Ooh, tough one. |
| 21:50 | < Mercutio> | If we weren't worried about text, I'd go with West Side Story |
| 21:50 | < afny> | I haven't seen that many, I was just looking for one to watch |
| 21:50 | < afny> | next in line for me to watch that doesn't preserve the text is Ran |
| 21:50 | < Mercutio> | Or maybe Kurosawa's Ran or Throne of Blood |
| 21:51 | < afny> | Yeah, Ran looks incredible |
| 21:51 | < Mercutio> | For text preservation, I'm probably going to throw a serious wrench in the gears of Shakespeare purists, but Baz Lurhmann's Romeo+Juliet |
| 21:52 | < afny> | I actually love Baz Lurhmann |
| 21:52 | < afny> | I think he was the perfect choice for Gatsby |
| 21:52 | < afny> | that movie is going to be so fucking good |
| 21:52 | < Mercutio> | I saw one preview, and it looked pretty good. |
| 21:53 | < afny> | everyone harped on the preview because of the music or whatever |
| 21:53 | < afny> | because it was some pop song |
| 21:53 | < afny> | I think his style of direction is very roaring 20's, though |
| 21:53 | < afny> | and he can handle the emotional weight of the characters |
| 21:53 | < Mercutio> | Has to be better than the original. |
| 21:54 | < Mercutio> | Didn't like that one. |
| 21:54 | < afny> | Yeah, it was horrible |
| 21:54 | < Mercutio> | Robert Redford doesn't do much for me |
| 21:54 | < afny> | Nick was miscast as well |
| 21:54 | < afny> | really everyone was |
| 21:58 | < Mercutio> | Just watched the trailer again. I think it will be a good interpretation. |
| 21:58 | < Mercutio> | I may have to break out the novel again and read it before I see the film. |
| 21:58 | < Mercutio> | Haven't read it in years |
| 21:59 | < afny> | I read it pretty often |
| 21:59 | < afny> | it's cliche but it's one of my favorites |
| 21:59 | < Mercutio> | I'm that way with On the Road. |
| 21:59 | < Mercutio> | I read that about once a year or so. |
| 22:00 | < afny> | Once was enough for me, I guess :P |
| 22:01 | < afny> | When I went through my beat phase I enjoyed Ginsberg a lot more |
| 22:01 | < Mercutio> | Yeah, it's not for everyone |
| 22:01 | < Mercutio> | The one Beat era author I come back to wasn't a true beat - Lawrence Ferlinghetti |
| 22:02 | < Mercutio> | He was part of the San Francisco Renaissance more than anything. |
| 22:02 | < Mercutio> | Eh, wife beckons. Dinner time. |
| 22:02 | < afny> | o/ |
| 22:09 | < afny> | randolph |
| 22:09 | < afny> | don't want to clutter up that thread but I have to say I agree |
| 22:10 | < afny> | when a ruleset is broken enough to allow "munchkin" as a philosophy |
| 22:10 | < afny> | it's the ruleset, not the players, that need to be addressed first |
| 22:10 | < afny> | a good ruleset won't turn assholes into fun players, but it can't possibly hurt |
| 22:16 | < huhwhozat> | afny: agreed on that last point. However, I also think that pretty much any system is going to have loopholes. The tighter you lock things down though, the more daunting it's going to be for newcomers |
| 22:17 | < afny> | I don't think the two are mutually exclusive |
| 22:17 | < huhwhozat> | true, but it tends to happen |
| 22:17 | < afny> | I mean, I don't think a "good" ruleset is necessarily a TIGHT, super EPLICT one |
| 22:17 | < afny> | in fact, sometimes the more explicit you become, the more powercreep will happen |
| 22:17 | < afny> | take dnd 1 vs dnd 3.5 |
| 22:18 | < afny> | for the most part, MFZ doesn't seem to be vulnerable to that kind of power creep, though |
| 22:18 | < huhwhozat> | yeah, putting the nitty gritty in the hands of players leads to power creep |
| 22:18 | < afny> | yea |
| 22:18 | < afny> | EPLICIT? |
| 22:18 | < afny> | explicit. |
| 22:18 | < afny> | Got dayum. |
| 22:18 | < huhwhozat> | but again, MFZ doesn't have an 'impartial' rules arbitrator |
| 22:19 | < huhwhozat> | all the players have equal stakes |
| 22:19 | < huhwhozat> | and if people are concentrated more on winning than having fun, things can get ugly fast |
| 22:19 | < afny> | well, games without a GM rely on the text to be the arbitrator |
| 22:19 | < afny> | which is why randolph is so concerned, I think |
| 22:20 | < huhwhozat> | it's a valid concern, in my opinion. |
| 22:20 | < huhwhozat> | I for one, hope we see draft 0.9 before we see this rulebook published |
| 22:21 | < neoaez> | Yo. |
| 22:21 | < afny> | oh yeah, it's a totally valid concern |
| 22:21 | < neoaez> | Wow. Are we still discussing the station soak rule? |
| 22:21 | < afny> | maybe |
| 22:21 | < afny> | I think it was settled, actually |
| 22:22 | < neoaez> | Just now catching up. |
| 22:23 | < huhwhozat> | well I love being involved in reasonable discussion (it's such a refreshing change from a lot of the internet) but I must away |
| 22:23 | < huhwhozat> | to home |
| 22:23 | < afny> | o/ |
| 22:24 | < huhwhozat> | bye all, cath you later |
| 22:24 | < huhwhozat> | *catch |
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| --- Log closed Tue Aug 14 00:00:13 2012 |