| --- Log opened Mon Feb 08 00:00:29 2021 |
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| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | Speaking of distros |
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| 02:23 | | * McMartin gets smooth bitmap scrolling working |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | I didn't hit the limits that would require me to actually do this right |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | But since I didn't that was *quite a bit* easier than I expected it to be |
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| 14:53 | | * TheWatcher flails vaguely at languages, tries to stop himself compulsively putting `;` at the end of lines in python |
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| 17:25 | | * catalyst throws whitespace at TW |
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| 18:18 | <@TheWatcher> | catalyst: *flails* |
| 18:18 | <@TheWatcher> | (so much haet for whitespace sensitivity) |
| 19:19 | < catalyst> | big same |
| 19:19 | | * McMartin grew up with FORK=STOAT |
| 19:20 | < catalyst> | with what? x) |
| 19:21 | <&McMartin> | That's a loop with variable K, in the range [S, AT] inclusive. |
| 19:27 | < john_cephalopoda> | WhitespaceIsOverratedAnyway,youDon'tEvenNeedItWhenYouGotCamelCase. |
| 19:33 | < catalyst> | McMartin: that's an abomination |
| 19:40 | | * Emmy shudders |
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| 19:47 | < Yossarian> | Can anyone lend me a hand? https://termbin.com/wlwt |
| 19:48 | < Yossarian> | or the github, I got him to upload it I reckon because his personal git repo was borked: https://github.com/asiekierka/voirc/blob/master/src/message.nim |
| 19:50 | < Yossarian> | not sure where he draws some of his numbers from, it's going to be using 1200 bit/sec codec2 |
| 19:54 | < john_cephalopoda> | What is the code supposed to do? |
| 19:55 | < Yossarian> | That's what I'm wondering. If I had to take a rough guess, it takes codec2 encoded data and shortens it. |
| 19:56 | < Yossarian> | It's just written in a terrible obscure language called 'Nim' that I can't get an environment up and running. |
| 19:56 | <&[R]> | I just installed nim on disc0, does that help you any? |
| 19:57 | < john_cephalopoda> | Yossarian: It runs in browser. |
| 19:57 | < john_cephalopoda> | https://play.nim-lang.org/ |
| 19:57 | < john_cephalopoda> | It seems to drop the last character when decoding. |
| 19:57 | < john_cephalopoda> | echo(decode(encode("1234567890", 10))); -> @['1', '2', '3', '4', '5', '6', '7', '8', '9'] |
| 19:58 | < Yossarian> | [R]: if it is 0.19.2 |
| 19:59 | <&[R]> | Name : nim |
| 19:59 | <&[R]> | Version : 1.4.2-1 |
| 19:59 | < Yossarian> | Drops the last character? Not sure how that helps. |
| 19:59 | < Yossarian> | 1.4.2-1 should be fine |
| 19:59 | < Yossarian> | set a cron job or something as a reminder that if it isn't used in a month to remove it. |
| 19:59 | < Yossarian> | I hate packages that just linger around... |
| 19:59 | < john_cephalopoda> | Yossarian: It has nothing to do with the function of the code, I was just surprised that decode(encode()) isn't the original input. |
| 20:06 | < Yossarian> | it's probably expecting a certain amount of bytes |
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| 20:09 | < Yossarian> | john_cephalopoda: try echo(decode(encode("0123456789ABCDEF", 16))); |
| 20:11 | < Yossarian> | anything less than 13 bytes and you do lose the last byte on decode |
| 20:12 | < Yossarian> | Omf\DSBm*Fnw9U7u/A&} |
| 20:12 | < Yossarian> | :/ |
| 20:12 | < john_cephalopoda> | What exactly is the question about that code? |
| 20:13 | < Yossarian> | What the hell does it do? |
| 20:14 | < john_cephalopoda> | It looks like it is taking an array of bytes (0-255) and squeezes it into ASCII characters. |
| 20:14 | < john_cephalopoda> | The "plus 33" makes sure that the character is not a control character and not <space>. |
| 20:15 | < john_cephalopoda> | The 94 is the number of printable characters over 33. |
| 20:15 | <&McMartin> | catalyst_: It is indeed an abomination, and enduring that abomination throughout my entire childhood is, I think, a big part of why I am unbothered by significant whitespace here in Cyberpunk Future Year 2021 |
| 20:16 | < Yossarian> | Oh, I didn't think of looking at an ASCII table. |
| 20:16 | < Yossarian> | However, perhaps a better encode and decode could be formulated. Encoding each codec2 frame into smallest amount of characters possible. |
| 20:19 | < john_cephalopoda> | Hm, in which way? Huffman coding? Is there a known distribution of characters or would one have to send a new table for every frame? |
| 20:20 | <&McMartin> | If that matters just send gzipped data gosh |
| 20:20 | <&[R]> | Ahem |
| 20:21 | <&[R]> | It's called *x*z now |
| 20:21 | <&McMartin> | Is it? I thought that was a different algo |
| 20:21 | < Yossarian> | The intended purpose is for sending text over IRC and then having a plugin on userside to play it back. |
| 20:21 | <&[R]> | thatwasthejoke.jpg |
| 20:21 | <&[R]> | Like a custom bouncer |
| 20:21 | | * john_cephalopoda . o O ( gzip = GNU/zip ) |
| 20:23 | <&McMartin> | (Unhelpful: gzip is not PKZIP compatible) |
| 20:23 | <&McMartin> | (and zip alone is the PKZIP format) |
| 20:24 | < john_cephalopoda> | Wait, it is actually "GNU"? Lol. |
| 20:24 | <&McMartin> | They like to name things after themselves |
| 20:25 | <&McMartin> | That said, yeah, aiui the g is for GNU and not Jean-loup Gailly |
| 20:25 | <&McMartin> | and this is actually pretty important because the gzip format can be streamed and PKZIP cannot. PKZIP puts crucial data at the back the file. |
| 20:26 | < john_cephalopoda> | Even the 'G' in "GNU" stands for "GNU", so you can be absolutely sure that they love their name. |
| 20:26 | <&McMartin> | There are ways to mess with zlib (which is PKZIP compatible, sorta) to make it streamable but I never got that deep into it |
| 20:26 | <@Tamber> | Recursion jokes ad nauseum~ |
| 20:28 | <&McMartin> | ... huh |
| 20:28 | <&McMartin> | OK, correction |
| 20:28 | <&McMartin> | gzip *does not* use a different algorithm from the one normally used in PKZIP |
| 20:28 | <&McMartin> | It just isn't compatible with those bitstreams. |
| 20:29 | <&McMartin> | (The both use DEFLATE) |
| 20:30 | < Yossarian> | Weird, I can't get audacity to record my microhpnone. I was hoping Audacity could measure samples instead of seconds given a variable |
| 20:30 | < Yossarian> | brb |
| 20:32 | <&McMartin> | If you're on Windows 10, make sure you don't have the OS secretly blocking microphone input under privacy/security options |
| 20:32 | <&McMartin> | Since IIRC this is kinda the default |
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| 20:33 | < john_cephalopoda> | Yossarian: Audacity can display time in samples. In the bottom bar, right-click on the time and it will show a menu where "samples" is an option. Tested in audacity 2.4.2. |
| 20:34 | < john_cephalopoda> | https://cuttle.space/tmp/samples.png |
| 20:35 | < Yossarian> | excellent, that's how codec2 forms its packets |
| 20:42 | < Yossarian> | Well, samples are converted to frames depending on the encoding choices |
| 20:46 | < Yossarian> | McMartin: Not sure if you were joking but seems like in my one test that using gzip `gzip -c 3sec_test.c2` actually produced more text. |
| 20:47 | <&McMartin> | Yossarian: Call it a ha ha only serious |
| 20:47 | <&McMartin> | Not really a joke butL |
| 20:47 | < Yossarian> | There are no silly ideas. |
| 20:48 | <&McMartin> | - The reason this is a bad idea is because the things being compressed are noticably smaller than the fixed-size header info |
| 20:48 | <&McMartin> | - *streamed* gzipped content as a general transfer mechanism is hugely powerful when it's something like "pulling down a web page" |
| 20:49 | <&McMartin> | But that does not I think work for "somebody's IRC lines" |
| 20:49 | < Yossarian> | but for 1-6 sec of audio, not so much |
| 20:49 | <&McMartin> | Well |
| 20:49 | <&McMartin> | 1-6 sec of WAV audio, probably pretty good |
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| 20:49 | <&McMartin> | But I assume this has been through some kind of DCT or something? |
| 20:49 | < Yossarian> | 1-6 sec of codec2 @ 1600bit/s |
| 20:50 | <&McMartin> | Right what I mean is, this is *compressed* audio |
| 20:50 | <&McMartin> | Deflate is LZ77 + Huffmann encoding |
| 20:50 | <&McMartin> | Those generally can't squeeze much out of compressed audio |
| 20:51 | <&McMartin> | (You can get a tiny savings from something like Vorbis but decompression is very expensive and it's flatly not worth it.) |
| 20:51 | < Yossarian> | Well, actually to be pendantically correct, it isn't compressed... the audio is sampled like WAV audio in packets and the main thing is sinusoidal (spoken words) are smoothed over while a lot of other stuff gets thrown out |
| 20:51 | <&McMartin> | DCT = Discrete Cosine Tranform |
| 20:52 | <&McMartin> | ... but it looks like it isn't that *specifically* |
| 20:52 | < Yossarian> | it models speech as a sum of sinusoids, but it wouldn't be wrong to say that it is compressed as a lot of data gets thrown out |
| 20:53 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, yeah, circuit crossed with Opus, which is a different speech-level audio format that does use the Modified Discrete Cosine Transform as part of its operation. |
| 20:54 | <&McMartin> | Anyway yeah, lossy compression is still compression |
| 20:55 | < Yossarian> | Regardless, I think this will be the project I'll work on. |
| 20:56 | < Yossarian> | As silly as a project or limited use as it might seem... because the fundamental codec2 encoding can be changed, students at university of stuggart got codec2 down to 450bit/s |
| 20:56 | < Yossarian> | which is like 56 byte/sec ? |
| 20:58 | < Yossarian> | I can enable voice over IRC on servers with limited text limit per message by implementing a queue and having that adhere to the rules of the channel then server, respectively |
| 21:00 | < Yossarian> | IRC plugin to play the audio back shouldn't be too difficult but the plugin to allow audio to be inserted seems a bit trickier. |
| 21:01 | < Yossarian> | queue + start packet + end packet for a server like this where I don't think you're allowed many characters per single line. |
| 21:34 | < john_cephalopoda> | The line length is actually set in the IRC standard. |
| 21:38 | < john_cephalopoda> | RFC 1459, section 2.3 says that 512 character make up one message. This includes "\r\n" and the prefix text saying where the message is directed to. |
| 21:43 | < john_cephalopoda> | So you'll be left with a bit less than 500 characters per transmission. That's extremely little. |
| 21:43 | < Yossarian> | yeah I've tried it on slashnet and it still breaks up before 512 |
| 21:43 | < Yossarian> | [R] was there |
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| 21:58 | < Yossarian> | if you have codec2 installed from your repo you can use c2enc (encode) and c2dec (decode). codec2 is expecting 8000Hz S16_LE raw audio files. |
| 21:59 | < Yossarian> | here is encoded 2000ms at 700B: Æ!`0/&b@c@+ kv0[ 'D*@&@@7 |/`3:/ G\ cS_'@'逷g?f5`a%`,w`l* |
| 22:00 | <&McMartin> | That really did not work out in my UTF-8 terminal. |
| 22:00 | < Yossarian> | so `c2dec 700B yosspaste paste.raw ; aplay -f S16_LE paste.raw` |
| 22:01 | < Yossarian> | No? What did you see? |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | Text from three alphabets and a fair amount of whitespace. |
| 22:02 | < john_cephalopoda> | Try to base32 the output. |
| 22:02 | <&McMartin> | Base64 would be fine, really. |
| 22:02 | <&McMartin> | IRC will handle the entire 32-127 range without complaint. |
| 22:03 | < Yossarian> | https://termbin.com/vvi3 |
| 22:03 | < Yossarian> | oh, you're right |
| 22:03 | < Yossarian> | let me see if screen is not in utf-8 mode for some reason |
| 22:03 | <&McMartin> | https://imgur.com/a/NFlDusC |
| 22:04 | <&McMartin> | Since if I repasted it would probably cycle it and you might get the same thing back, here's a screencap |
| 22:07 | | * Yossarian scratches chin |
| 22:07 | < Yossarian> | I wonder if my terminal emulator is outputting UTF-8 properly |
| 22:09 | < john_cephalopoda> | Try "cat file | base32 --", then paste the output. |
| 22:09 | < john_cephalopoda> | Or base64, doesn't matter. |
| 22:10 | <&[R]> | `base64 < file` |
| 22:10 | <&[R]> | Don't be a savage |
| 22:10 | <&[R]> | john_cephalopoda: Spark, Alpine, Void, or Gentoo (your question from yesterday) |
| 22:11 | < Yossarian> | https://termbin.com/vf00 base32 encoded |
| 22:11 | <&[R]> | http://nobl.ca/1612822276.png <-- the UTF thing (I can't be assed to crop stuff) |
| 22:13 | < Yossarian> | and my terminal is outputting UTF-8 properly it seems |
| 22:14 | < john_cephalopoda> | Hm, no support for 700B for me, only 700C. |
| 22:14 | < Yossarian> | try typing it in anyway |
| 22:14 | < Yossarian> | the short help is a little |
| 22:15 | < Yossarian> | out of date? |
| 22:15 | <&[R]> | 700B 700C? |
| 22:15 | < Yossarian> | 700B is the encoding scheme used |
| 22:16 | <&[R]> | Ah |
| 22:16 | < john_cephalopoda> | [R]: I couldn't find a Linux called "Spark", only one called "Sparky". Is it that? |
| 22:16 | <&[R]> | https://fleshless.org/pages/spark.html |
| 22:17 | < Yossarian> | [R], john_cephalopoda: I'm not sure what the B or C stand for... they might have different models for sinusodial summing or perhaps they're meant for SSB radio or somethin'. |
| 22:17 | < Yossarian> | with error correction perhaps? |
| 22:18 | < john_cephalopoda> | [R]: The first sentence on that page already sounds off-putting. |
| 22:18 | <&[R]> | It's a refernce to something Poettering said |
| 22:18 | <&[R]> | And purely that |
| 22:19 | < Yossarian> | but that inital output I pasted to channel is when I used 'cat' on the encoded file... I looked at locale -c charmap and that one character is a japanese kanji |
| 22:20 | < Yossarian> | although when I open the encoded file in vim, it doesn't show UTF-8 or anything, it actually converts it to raw UTF characters with backslashes |
| 22:20 | <&[R]> | You mean escaped characters? |
| 22:20 | < Yossarian> | yeah |
| 22:20 | < Yossarian> | there is probably a way to stop it from doing that |
| 22:21 | < Yossarian> | it can be perceived as annoying behavior in some instances |
| 22:21 | < Yossarian> | just curious, did you get it to play back? |
| 22:23 | < john_cephalopoda> | [R]: Still, quoting that without context leaves a bad impression. And the "FAQ" section doesn't improve that. |
| 22:24 | <&[R]> | Fair |
| 22:25 | <&[R]> | Spark is what I run BTW |
| 22:25 | < Yossarian> | y<&McMartin> https://imgur.com/a/NFlDusC --> that's exactly what a 'cat' of the encoded file looks like for me |
| 22:25 | < john_cephalopoda> | Yossarian: The file is not UTF-8, it is raw binary data. It can and will contain characters that are invalid UTF-8. |
| 22:26 | < john_cephalopoda> | Yossarian: The Nim code you posted earlier was written for that exact purpose: To turn binary data into ASCII (which is a subset of UTF-8), so it will always be valid ASCII/UTF-8. |
| 22:26 | < Yossarian> | maybe that's what the encoding and decoding was for |
| 22:27 | < Yossarian> | yeah |
| 22:28 | < Yossarian> | I thought it was some sort of gray encoding to reduce the amount of characters by a little. |
| 22:28 | < john_cephalopoda> | I really wish there were more open-source projects that experiment with minimalism and other gimmicks without having a toxic community. |
| 22:29 | < john_cephalopoda> | Yossarian: It actually makes the code a bit longer, packing a byte into 13 bits :) |
| 22:29 | <&[R]> | I gave you a few of them |
| 22:29 | <&[R]> | Artix also |
| 22:30 | < john_cephalopoda> | [R]: Not talking about distros but open-source projects in general. |
| 22:30 | <&[R]> | Ah |
| 22:30 | < Yossarian> | but you should have been able to decode it to raw and play it back *shrug* |
| 22:32 | < john_cephalopoda> | Yossarian: Can you try encoding it with an other mode, e.g. 1200, 700C, 450, or 450PWB? The 700B encoding mode doesn't seem to be supported in the decoder on my side. |
| 22:32 | < Yossarian> | oh shit |
| 22:33 | < Yossarian> | they added 450 to the repo you pulled from? |
| 22:33 | < Yossarian> | that's new, it was merged with mainline... now I don't get to do it myself >:| |
| 22:33 | < john_cephalopoda> | Ah, I checked out git. |
| 22:33 | < Yossarian> | ah |
| 22:33 | < Yossarian> | but still |
| 22:34 | < Yossarian> | $ base64 < ABC_1200.c2 | termbincp |
| 22:35 | < Yossarian> | https://termbin.com/ayeg |
| 22:36 | < john_cephalopoda> | Alpha Bravo Charlie. Works perfectly. |
| 22:37 | < Yossarian> | I should have paid more attention to math in school. |
| 22:37 | < john_cephalopoda> | Why that? |
| 22:37 | < Yossarian> | Yeah, that's my voice. TTS had stilted pronunciation and getting it to work quickly was grating my nerves. |
| 22:38 | < Yossarian> | Because the applications are great. |
| 22:39 | < Yossarian> | ah, codec2 on github doesn't have any actual dependencies besides cmake, huh? |
| 22:40 | < john_cephalopoda> | It would cry if it was missing something :þ |
| 22:41 | < john_cephalopoda> | git clone https://github.com/drowe67/codec2 && cd codec2 && mkdir build && cd build && cmake .. && make && cd src/ |
| 22:43 | < Yossarian> | because the uh, github for codec2 is just the reference implementation... I think the german students who did 450 and 450PWB applied machine learning from banks of speakers of various languages |
| 22:43 | < Yossarian> | not very long data sets, like 30-60-90 minutes each |
| 22:44 | < john_cephalopoda> | I wanted to mess around with machine learning, but tensorflow is scary, even installation is a bit complicated. |
| 22:45 | | catalyst_ [catalyst@Nightstar-ejd4sd.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 22:46 | < Yossarian> | kinda cool that the original algorithm/implementation didn't use any machine learning, just good ol' signal analysis and maffs |
| 22:54 | < Yossarian> | [R]: What does Spark do for ya? |
| 22:54 | <&[R]> | It's Arch without systemd |
| 23:04 | | himi [sjjf@Nightstar-1drtbs.anu.edu.au] has joined #code |
| 23:04 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 23:06 | | Emmy [Emmy@Nightstar-l49opt.fixed.kpn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 23:09 | < john_cephalopoda> | [R]: It's suckless init, isn't it? |
| 23:10 | <&[R]> | Yes |
| 23:10 | <&[R]> | With a homegrown service manager |
| 23:11 | <&[R]> | ssm is apparently pretty old |
| 23:14 | < john_cephalopoda> | Hm, what about devuan? |
| 23:15 | < john_cephalopoda> | Hm, maybe I should check out freebsd. |
| 23:17 | <&[R]> | I am not a fan of debianoids |
| 23:20 | < john_cephalopoda> | I used to be very specific in the distros I used, but in the end they are all just a Linux kernel, an init system, a package manager and a package repo. |
| 23:22 | < john_cephalopoda> | There are only a few that deviate a lot from the more-or-less standard way, namely NixOS. |
| 23:23 | <&[R]> | There's another distro that's like NixOS |
| 23:23 | <&[R]> | GUIX |
| 23:24 | < john_cephalopoda> | Interesting stuff that has its use somewhere, not really a good option for day-to-day desktop use though. |
| 23:36 | < Yossarian> | john_cephalopoda, [R], McMartin: Thanks your assistance. |
| 23:36 | < john_cephalopoda> | np |
| 23:36 | < Yossarian> | Thanks for your assistance, too. |
| 23:36 | <&[R]> | Most of my assistance was elsechan |
| 23:37 | <&[R]> | What clients are you planning to patch? |
| 23:37 | <&[R]> | client(s)* |
| 23:38 | <&McMartin> | Remember, machine learning is generally just an extremely general search algorithm whose results are difficult to precisely replicate~ |
| 23:38 | < Yossarian> | If I get that far, which would be interesting... weechat, irssi, trying to think of the next big one with plugin support but I can't |
| 23:40 | < john_cephalopoda> | McMartin: I had a lecture on it in university. It all practically amounted to "If we add another layer with *spins wheel of fortune* 5 synapses, it might work better!" |
| 23:40 | < john_cephalopoda> | Just trial and error until the result works. |
| 23:42 | < john_cephalopoda> | But it can be fun :D |
| 23:43 | < john_cephalopoda> | Leaving for today, cya~ |
| 23:44 | <&McMartin> | https://xkcd.com/1838/ always an xkcd, as usual |
| 23:46 | < Yossarian> | [R]: if I were to make this thing a plugin, primarily, for the clients that support plugins... I'm not so sanguine about having python or whatever plugin call a sound library for recording - there are instances where the microphone might not be attached to the machine (how I'm ssh'd in your boxen) with the plugin. And playback, too. |
| 23:49 | < Yossarian> | but there is probably a solution somewhere |
| 23:50 | < Yossarian> | if I keep thinking on the problem I'll get fatigued |
| 23:50 | | john_cephalopoda [john@Nightstar-iobmls.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| --- Log closed Tue Feb 09 00:00:31 2021 |