| --- Log opened Wed Aug 17 00:00:56 2016 |
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| 07:07 | <~Vornicus> | okay, enough adventures in advanced math land, I need to actually write code, gosh. |
| 07:09 | < catadroid`> | Make the game Vorn |
| 07:09 | | Netsplit over, joins: ToxicFrog |
| 07:09 | < catadroid`> | Make Vorn game again |
| 07:11 | <~Vornicus> | I'm halfway thinking I should, like, set up twitch or something, so I can pretend to have an audience. audiences seem to work well on me |
| 07:12 | | * catadroid` nods |
| 07:12 | <~Vornicus> | not as good as, I suspect, multiplyeral, but, you know |
| 07:13 | < catadroid`> | multiwhatty? |
| 07:14 | <~Vornicus> | as opposed to adderal |
| 07:14 | < catadroid`> | Oh |
| 07:14 | <&McMartin> | Is that a drug that, when you take it, causes you to team up with several copies of yourself from THE FUTURE? |
| 07:16 | <&McMartin> | Because man, I need some of that |
| 07:16 | <&McMartin> | Preferably from far enough in the future that they can have already read documentation that doesn't exist yet >_< |
| 07:16 | <~Vornicus> | preach |
| 07:18 | <&McMartin> | I'm in crunch mode at the moment primarily on task Make Sure Shit Works On iOS 10 and the beta documentation and tooling is just an absolute tire fire |
| 07:18 | <&McMartin> | Xcode isn't even picking up "log to debugger console" messages from the device half the time |
| 07:19 | <&McMartin> | I have been reduced to "set multiple conditional breakpoints and see which one hits" |
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| 08:58 | < catadroid> | I am looking forward to committing things to Elite when I get into work |
| 08:59 | < catadroid> | Largely because this means they'll finally have some of the core container fixes I did a while ago |
| 09:02 | | * catadroid is a competent programmer |
| 09:02 | < catadroid> | And a proficient one, too |
| 09:08 | <~Vornicus> | I remember you talking about those. |
| 09:19 | <~Vornicus> | I'm still kind of surprised the standard library's implementation is not-great enough that you went in and redid them |
| 09:20 | < catadroid> | I have a long and considered list of pros and cons if you want to know them |
| 09:27 | <~Vornicus> | Certainly |
| 09:32 | <&[R]> | Elite, the game? |
| 09:35 | <~Vornicus> | http://imgur.com/CifHuC0 yay, basic level loading works |
| 09:35 | <~Vornicus> | and it seemed to help |
| 09:50 | < catadroid> | Elite: Dangerous, yes |
| 09:50 | < catadroid> | Yay for Vornball level! |
| 09:55 | <@TheWatcher> | New head of school is blind, I can see a lot of a11y fixes in my future... |
| 09:56 | <~Vornicus> | now I need to write basic physics for the scenarios presented in this level. of which there are, uh, at least three. there are a couple of questions to be futzed with, mostly having to do with control vs vertical walls. |
| 09:57 | <@TheWatcher> | (Which isn't to say that I didn't /try/, I am pretty sure I didn't /succeed/ however) |
| 09:57 | <@TheWatcher> | Vornicus: then you need to have your levels procedurally generated, so there's an infinite number of them!~ |
| 09:57 | | * TheWatcher flrrrrrd |
| 09:58 | <~Vornicus> | You are fortunate that there is an ocean between us |
| 09:59 | <@TheWatcher> | :D |
| 10:02 | < catadroid> | X) |
| 10:04 | <~Vornicus> | (there's another several that I must think about later; for now, the ones I actually care about are "in the air", "touching a line", and "touching two things") |
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| 11:08 | | * TheWatcher argh |
| 11:11 | <@TheWatcher> | Good news: In a moment of terrifying clarity I realised that this database wasn't fully normalised, and identified how it could be fixed properly. |
| 11:13 | <@TheWatcher> | Bad news: I didn't identify this two months ago, when I wouldn't have to code like the wind to fix everything around it |
| 11:25 | < catadroid> | Erk |
| 11:25 | < catadroid> | godspeed |
| 11:35 | | * catadroid enjoys Simon Peyton Jones's enthusiasm |
| 11:50 | < catadroid> | There do seem to be interesting similarities between Haskell type classes and Go interfaces |
| 11:50 | < catadroid> | From an implementation standpoint |
| 11:51 | < catadroid> | (compiler implementation) |
| 11:54 | < catadroid> | Pi: now that I understand how Haskell views type classes, I understand why what I was saying about packages is irrelevant in that world |
| 11:55 | < catadroid> | Although single system unique instances feels like a very idealised view of the world that likely doesn't work in practice |
| 12:00 | < catadroid> | God, Haskell has such an image problem |
| 12:00 | < catadroid> | The language is actually simple enough |
| 12:00 | < catadroid> | I guess there are a lot of people who like acting clever and making it seem complex |
| 12:01 | < catadroid> | I mean, it is complex enough by itself, especially since functional programming is hard for imperative programmers for various reasons |
| 12:02 | < catadroid> | But a lot of folk seem to want it to feel unlearnable |
| 12:04 | <@Tamber> | Well, if it feels unlearnable for mere mortals, then you get to feel extra special for having learnt it, right? |
| 12:07 | | wolfmoon [uid178473@Nightstar-6br85t.irccloud.com] has joined #code |
| 12:07 | < wolfmoon> | Hi |
| 12:07 | < catadroid> | But there's so much to learn that everyone to a first approximation knows nothing anyway |
| 12:07 | < catadroid> | Hi |
| 12:08 | < catadroid> | Having said that, I suppose I derive some sense of value from knowing deep C++ bullshit |
| 12:09 | < wolfmoon> | I am trying to call the API from a website but I am having difficulty seeing how to call it. I can't seem to find any tutorials on the matter. At least not anything relevant.. ;-; |
| 12:09 | < catadroid> | Even if that complexity is kind of easy to cut through once I understood lisp macros |
| 12:09 | < wolfmoon> | Does anyone have any suggestions maybe? |
| 12:10 | <@Pi> | catadroid: Indeed! |
| 12:10 | <@Pi> | catadroid: That's why crappy monad tutorials were such a scourge at a point; it seems like everyone who gets to a point of half-understanding them feels the need to write about it. xP |
| 12:11 | <@Pi> | (which is not a great thing if your understanding is and your exposition is bad, as the case tends to be) |
| 12:11 | <@Pi> | People like SPJ are a blessing. |
| 12:11 | < wolfmoon> | Pi: I missed the first part. What is catadroid referring to? |
| 12:11 | < catadroid> | wolfmoon: it's going to be easier to help if you give more details (and might help you work through how to do it) |
| 12:11 | <@Pi> | wolfmoon: Ah, we were talking about Haskell. |
| 12:12 | < wolfmoon> | catadroid: I am trying to pull weather information from News24 for CT |
| 12:12 | < catadroid> | Pi: my view of Haskell has been shaped by those godawful expansions |
| 12:12 | <@Pi> | catadroid: My main pet peeve these days are how badly-explained IO actions always seem to be. |
| 12:12 | < wolfmoon> | At least that is the end result |
| 12:12 | < catadroid> | Explanations* |
| 12:12 | <@Pi> | catadroid: I know, and it's not just you. :( |
| 12:12 | < catadroid> | IO actions are never explained as actions |
| 12:12 | <@Pi> | They are by reasonable people! |
| 12:12 | <@Pi> | But the unreasonable ones seem to outnumber them. |
| 12:12 | <@Pi> | Anyhow. |
| 12:13 | <@Pi> | wolfmoon: Do you know how to look at the requests in the inspector? |
| 12:13 | < wolfmoon> | Pi: What exactly is meant by IO? |
| 12:13 | < wolfmoon> | Input/Output? |
| 12:13 | <@Pi> | wolfmoon: Yeah, Haskell represents IO actions as first-class values. |
| 12:14 | <@Pi> | So there's a type called "IO" for that. |
| 12:14 | < wolfmoon> | Pi: ah, okay |
| 12:14 | <@Pi> | For Input/Output, but it can represent basically any external effects. |
| 12:14 | < wolfmoon> | Pi: I think so? I am not sure exactly what I am seeing to be completely honest |
| 12:14 | <@Pi> | Basically, if it changes state outside of your Haskell program itself, it's an IO action. |
| 12:15 | < wolfmoon> | I tracked down the ajax files that call the API |
| 12:15 | < wolfmoon> | But it is missing classes etc |
| 12:15 | <@Pi> | It's probably easier just to look at the calls directly |
| 12:16 | <@Pi> | This is basically what you want to see: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/qgEcSk6t/ |
| 12:16 | <@Pi> | You'll see there in the "Network" tab, you can either view all requests the page makes, or filter it down to types. |
| 12:17 | <@Pi> | In this case, filtering it down to "XHR" is what you want: those are the XHR calls that the page makes to get the weather data. |
| 12:17 | < catadroid> | IO is always explained as 'here understand this maths'... Side effects! |
| 12:17 | < catadroid> | Without any actual explanation of how the side effects work |
| 12:17 | <@TheWatcher> | Although I'd suggest that using a service that's actually properly documented like the weather underground API will make your life easier >.> |
| 12:18 | < catadroid> | The one exception being Pi's explanations here |
| 12:18 | < wolfmoon> | Pi: I got that but then what does one do with that? I mean how would one use that to call the API? |
| 12:18 | <@TheWatcher> | wolfmoon: you write code to replicate the requests |
| 12:18 | <@Pi> | catadroid: My other pet peeve; "side effects" |
| 12:18 | <@Pi> | Haskell doesn't have side effects, it has first-class effects :) |
| 12:18 | <@Pi> | Side effects happen to other languages! |
| 12:19 | <@Pi> | (unsafePerformIO and other internal plumbing notwithstanding) |
| 12:23 | < wolfmoon> | TheWatcher: Hmm, I do not know what to write in order to do that. Like, if I have to request a cookie, or include other documentation etc. If you call the ajax file highlighted in Pi's picture, it displays a list of functions under a class but those call other objects/functions/classes/whatever that is not included in this file. Should I just assume then |
| 12:23 | < wolfmoon> | that it will work without having to request other files? |
| 12:23 | <@Pi> | wolfmoon: Right, so what's happening here is that the resource is being called in different ways. |
| 12:24 | <@Pi> | What you're seeing when you just call it directly like that is the response to a GET request |
| 12:24 | < wolfmoon> | http://weather.news24.com/ajaxpro/TwentyFour.Weather.Web.Ajax,App_Code.ashx |
| 12:24 | <@Pi> | But what the page is actually doing is a POST request, with some extra data to idntify the call. |
| 12:24 | < wolfmoon> | That? |
| 12:24 | <@TheWatcher> | wolfmoon: a really noddy example, to get the weather for joburg: wget --header 'X-AjaxPro-Method:GetAstronomyForecast' http://weather.news24.com/ajaxpro/TwentyFour.Weather.Web.Ajax,App_Code.ashx --post-data '{"cityId": "77105"}' -O - |
| 12:24 | <@Pi> | Right. That's their API endpoint, effectivly |
| 12:25 | <@TheWatcher> | Soryy s/weather/astronomical data/ |
| 12:25 | <@TheWatcher> | to get different types of data, you change the header |
| 12:25 | <@TheWatcher> | so |
| 12:25 | <@Pi> | Yeah, what TheWatcher pasted is the GetAstronomyForecast call, using wget |
| 12:26 | <@Pi> | They have a bit of a weird system where they identify the call being made in that "X-AjaxPro-Method" header :) |
| 12:26 | <@TheWatcher> | wget --header 'X-AjaxPro-Method:GetCurrentOne' http://weather.news24.com/ajaxpro/TwentyFour.Weather.Web.Ajax,App_Code.ashx --post-data '{"cityId": "77105"}' -O - |
| 12:26 | <@Pi> | The GetForecast7Day is probably the call you're interested in. |
| 12:26 | <@Pi> | And the POST data is that bit that identifies the cityID |
| 12:26 | < wolfmoon> | Pi: So basically I was overcomplicating it |
| 12:27 | < wolfmoon> | What is wget? Is this a javascript function or html or just a request? Like how would one call that? |
| 12:27 | < wolfmoon> | Pi: Actually the current one :) |
| 12:27 | <@TheWatcher> | wget is a program you run from the terminal |
| 12:28 | < wolfmoon> | Ahhh |
| 12:28 | < wolfmoon> | TheWatcher: Thank you! :D |
| 12:28 | < wolfmoon> | This is from a linux machine, right? |
| 12:28 | <@Pi> | curl is the other program you'll see referenced a lot. |
| 12:29 | <@Pi> | (for "cat url") |
| 12:29 | < wolfmoon> | Thank you!! This actually helped a lot |
| 12:30 | < catadroid> | Sure, but it can do *effects* |
| 12:30 | < catadroid> | And that's not even generally covered by people trying to explain IO |
| 12:30 | <@TheWatcher> | wolfmoon: wget and curl are available for linux, mac, and windows. Depends what you want to do with the data as to whether they're appropriate to use, I just used it as an example for how you could craft a request without any special gubbins. |
| 12:30 | <@Pi> | catadroid: Which is sad, because that's literally the entire and only point of IO: representing effects. |
| 12:34 | < catadroid> | Aye |
| 12:34 | < catadroid> | And leaves the reader thinking 'great, now i don't understand how to do either monads or IO" |
| 12:41 | < catadroid> | Haskell seems to be suffering from the problem of lacking homoiconicity |
| 12:42 | < catadroid> | I wonder what happens if one implements a LISP with a REEPL |
| 12:42 | < catadroid> | Where eval is only reduction internally and there's a separate execute step |
| 12:42 | < catadroid> | ...am I going to end up implementing this |
| 12:43 | < catadroid> | I guess I've already been through how to implement scheme |
| 12:44 | <@TheWatcher> | `M-x ielm`~ |
| 12:44 | < catadroid> | none of your operating system calls here |
| 12:44 | <@TheWatcher> | :D |
| 12:45 | < catadroid> | Do I sound idealistic and stupid? I feel really stupid |
| 12:47 | <@TheWatcher> | Don't sound either to me, frankly. |
| 12:47 | < wolfmoon> | TheWatcher: it is possible to call this from django for example? :D |
| 12:48 | < wolfmoon> | As far as I understand it, it is, hey? |
| 12:51 | <@TheWatcher> | Any python program could craft an appropriate request using urlib2, or if you're sane using somehting like Requests: http://www.python-requests.org/en/master/ |
| 12:53 | < catadroid> | I really need to write down the thoughts I have on context and nominal pivots |
| 12:53 | <@TheWatcher> | Blog! |
| 12:53 | < catadroid> | That's my plan! |
| 12:54 | < catadroid> | I guess my last blog post wasn't awful |
| 12:54 | < catadroid> | I should not be so harsh on myself |
| 12:56 | <@Pi> | catadroid: TH is homoiconic for all intents and purposes. |
| 12:56 | < catadroid> | It is not, you cannot use it as it's own representation |
| 12:56 | <@Pi> | You can. |
| 12:56 | <@Pi> | The syntax is just ADTs |
| 12:56 | < catadroid> | Yes, you need a different syntax |
| 12:57 | <@Pi> | Well, that's just how it gets reified. |
| 12:58 | < catadroid> | My feeling is that being homoiconic is a binary state - like being sort of pregnant isn't a useful distinction |
| 12:58 | <@Pi> | There are certainly degrees of it. |
| 12:58 | < catadroid> | I'm not actually sure what the implications are explicitly yet, but I feel that it is important in some way to thinking |
| 12:59 | <@Pi> | (same with pregnancy, really, but that's a whole other debate) |
| 12:59 | < catadroid> | My point is that being almost homoiconic is not the same as being homoiconic |
| 12:59 | <@Pi> | It's hard to pin down any exact binary definition of homoiconicity |
| 12:59 | < catadroid> | It might be useful, but it's still a qualitative difference |
| 12:59 | <@Pi> | What would you hinge the definition on? |
| 13:00 | < catadroid> | That's a very good question |
| 13:00 | < catadroid> | I want to work that out myself but it will take some time |
| 13:00 | <@Pi> | catadroid: By all the usual definitions I know of, there are degrees. |
| 13:00 | < catadroid> | I just have an intuition that there's merit in being entirely homoiconic |
| 13:00 | < wolfmoon> | requests is so useful :D |
| 13:00 | <@Pi> | I would say, for example, that homoiconicity of common languages would fall like: Lisp > Haskell > Python > C |
| 13:00 | < wolfmoon> | It might actually do the job |
| 13:01 | <@Pi> | Each one of those is distinctly more or less homoiconoc than the ones next to it. |
| 13:01 | <@Pi> | catadroid: Well, first you have to define "entirely homoiconic" :) |
| 13:01 | < catadroid> | Perhaps, but only one actually represents it's code using the data type syntax |
| 13:01 | <@Pi> | You might find it's one of those things that get greyer and fuzzier the closer you look. |
| 13:01 | <@Pi> | catadroid: No all of those can do it. |
| 13:01 | < catadroid> | Yes yes I know I'm stupid I'm sorry |
| 13:02 | <@TheWatcher> | wolfmoon: simple example: http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/712 |
| 13:02 | <@Pi> | The main question that homoiconicity hinges on is how similar the reified code looks to source code. |
| 13:02 | <@Pi> | Lisp is obviously the closest, by far. |
| 13:02 | < catadroid> | And if you look closely you can see exactly the point where I realise my depression is affecting my ability to converse without hurting myself |
| 13:03 | < catadroid> | It's not just the closest, it's *exactly the same* |
| 13:03 | < catadroid> | I just believe that that's important |
| 13:03 | <@Pi> | (But even then, there are all kinds of corners; for example, quasiquotation and many other superficial syntax bits get a bit fuzzy and more distant in reified and non-reified forms, as far as the definition of homoiconicity is concerned.) |
| 13:03 | <@Pi> | (In Lisp, I mean.) |
| 13:03 | < catadroid> | Argh why do i hate myself so much |
| 13:04 | <@Pi> | In Haskell, your code is also represented using the native data type syntax, but the distance is greater. |
| 13:04 | < catadroid> | Sorry I think I need to leave for a while or I'm going to get into an argument with you that's unnecessary |
| 13:04 | <@Pi> | In Python, the distance gets a lot greater. |
| 13:04 | <@Pi> | In C, it's way way way greater. |
| 13:04 | <@Pi> | Not really recognisable at all unless you go through many layers of indirection. |
| 13:04 | < catadroid> | This has nothing to do with code and everything to do with my state of mind |
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| 13:04 | <@Pi> | catadroid: Alright, sorry, didn't mean to start something. |
| 13:06 | <@Pi> | Oops. :/ |
| 13:06 | <@Pi> | wolfmoon: requests is pretty great, yeah. |
| 13:08 | < wolfmoon> | TheWatcher: Thanks! |
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| 13:12 | < wolfmoon> | TheWatcher: Omg it works! :D thank you!!! |
| 13:12 | < wolfmoon> | I now understand how to do it :D thank you! |
| 13:13 | <@TheWatcher> | Excellent. :) |
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| 14:09 | < catadroid> | Pi: apologies, my head is a little messed up today |
| 14:10 | <@Pi> | catadroid: No probs... sorry I went into infodump mode there. |
| 14:10 | <@Pi> | I wasn't being cognisant. |
| 14:10 | <@Pi> | All good now. :) |
| 14:23 | < catadroid> | :) |
| 14:33 | | * catadroid wants to feel competent in this world, feels she has a lot to potentially contribute |
| 14:47 | <@simon> | catadroid, what usually keeps me from writing blog posts is that whenever I've got something to write about, it's always dead-obvious to me. it usually requires a little conviction from others that it isn't dead-obvious to others. |
| 14:50 | <@simon> | catadroid, what I don't realize until after is that it was all pointless and unproductive, but usually entertaining to read and write. :P |
| 14:52 | < catadroid> | Writing about things crystallises them |
| 14:52 | < catadroid> | And allows you to advance your thinking |
| 14:52 | < catadroid> | Even if that's nowhere near cutting edge, it is still worthwhile writing about them |
| 14:53 | < catadroid> | The problem I'm having in general today is that my lack of self confidence is causing me to interpret lack of knowledge as a personal attack, which isn't helpful for anyone |
| 14:59 | < catadroid> | This office is getting better at passing the Bechedel test |
| 15:00 | <@simon> | the office at work? |
| 15:01 | <@simon> | ah, I can see how that sucks. my self-confidence is mostly wound up around how long it takes for me to do things. |
| 15:13 | < catadroid> | I just feel like when I don't know something, that it's a personal failing |
| 15:24 | < catadroid> | I wonder if I should write a blog post about abstraction from physical principles to top level. I feel like that knowledge drives a lot of my fundamental thinking about computation |
| 15:29 | <@Pi> | catadroid: Woo, re. office :) |
| 15:36 | < ToxicFrog> | </dev/catalyst grep 'wonder if I should write a blog post' | yes |
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| 15:59 | < catadroid> | ToxicFrog: do you think the last one was interesting / readable? |
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| 16:35 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|afk |
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| 17:22 | < ToxicFrog> | catadroid: yes! |
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| 21:55 | <@ErikMesoy> | Emoji: Apparently the new generation of Bobby Tables. |
| 21:55 | <@ErikMesoy> | Weird coincidence of seeing two stories today about systems broken because someone entered emoji name. |
| 21:55 | < catadroid> | ð |
| 21:56 | <@Azash> | A very small part of me wants to use the autocomplete I have for the good shit copypasta |
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| 22:43 | <@gnolam> | ErikMesoy: link? |
| 22:44 | | * Vornicus streams Let's Make Vornball. https://www.twitch.tv/vornotron |
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| --- Log closed Thu Aug 18 00:00:12 2016 |