| --- Log opened Wed Jan 27 00:00:52 2016 |
| 00:57 | < catalyst> | yay I crashed the clang frontend |
| 00:57 | | * catalyst declares victory |
| 00:59 | <&McMartin> | High five |
| 00:59 | <&McMartin> | I can only claim devastation of lldb |
| 01:04 | < catalyst> | sadly this means that my template does not work |
| 01:05 | <&McMartin> | :( |
| 01:22 | | * catalyst fixes it by having fewer implicit cast cases |
| 01:23 | < catalyst> | (probably for the best) |
| 01:25 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:25 | <&McMartin> | Heh, quite |
| 01:25 | | mode/#code [+ao Derakon Derakon] by ChanServ |
| 01:25 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, the time I leveled lldb it was because I was using a library that made such heavy use of template metaprogramming that individual symbol names were over 2KB. |
| 01:25 | <&McMartin> | lldb was... not okay with that |
| 01:27 | <@Reiv> | What do you mean by symbol names |
| 01:27 | <@Reiv> | or in fact, template metaprogramming |
| 01:34 | <&Derakon> | Symbol names are stuff like names of classes and functions. |
| 01:34 | <&Derakon> | Template Metaprogramming is heavy shit that I can't adequately describe except in that you probably should not be doing it. |
| 01:35 | <&Derakon> | (symbol names typically get mangled by the compiler in order to enforce that e.g. it can tell the difference between class A's "foo()" and class B's "foo()" even though B inherits from A) |
| 01:35 | <@Reiv> | snrk |
| 01:47 | <&McMartin> | Also to tell the difference between foo(int x) and foo(float x) |
| 01:47 | < catalyst> | So, this is what crashes it: http://paste.ofcode.org/nrRa3ZbFJSAiRRUydELPSG |
| 01:48 | | * McMartin beholds intentional use of std::forward, flees in terror |
| 01:48 | < catalyst> | :D |
| 01:48 | < catalyst> | I was attempting to implement std::result from Rust, it turns out that's a little forlorn |
| 01:48 | <&Derakon> | Man, I can't read that shit. |
| 01:48 | <&McMartin> | I need to rebuild my stockpile of Elder Signs |
| 01:48 | < catalyst> | that's a stripped down version of it |
| 01:48 | <&Derakon> | My C++ knowledge dates from the early 2000's and I never did much with templates. |
| 01:48 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, so |
| 01:49 | <&McMartin> | C++11 is, as I've noted a few times over the last six months, for all practical purposes a completely different language |
| 01:49 | <&McMartin> | std::forward and its related technologies turn out to be a large part of why |
| 01:49 | <&McMartin> | And they are "supposed" to live in the depths of standard library implementations |
| 01:49 | < catalyst> | This crashes the compiler via: Assertion failed: Loc.isValid() && "point of instantiation must be valid!", file D:\src\llvm_release_build_3.7.1\llvm\tools\clang\include\clang/AST/DeclTemplate. h, line 1606 |
| 01:49 | < catalyst> | :D |
| 01:49 | <&McMartin> | This is where I occasionally delve and where catalyst lives |
| 01:50 | <&McMartin> | Result is the one that's basically bost::optional but instead of "none" it's a value of some different type, right? |
| 01:50 | <&McMartin> | *boost |
| 01:50 | <&McMartin> | My rust is rusty |
| 01:50 | < catalyst> | I wrote an internal article on how to use std::forward (to wit: don't, unless you're writing core factory types, generally) |
| 01:51 | < catalyst> | result is the one that's basically <returntype, errortype> and has the try! macro |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 01:51 | < catalyst> | it basically provides compiler support for scoping exceptions implicitly |
| 01:51 | | * McMartin nods |
| 01:51 | < catalyst> | amusingly, this is basically Haskell's do syntax applied from the other direction |
| 01:51 | | * McMartin <3 that mechanism. Death to exceptions~ |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, it's Haskell's Either type |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | And IIRC under that name or one similar to it it's made it into C++17 |
| 01:52 | <&McMartin> | I do not recall if building the reference version of it required extending the language somehow |
| 01:52 | <&McMartin> | That is, I'm not sure if C++11 is good enough to do Result *right* |
| 01:52 | < catalyst> | this is essentially C++14 |
| 01:53 | < catalyst> | I should actually submit a bug report to clang |
| 01:53 | < catalyst> | but I'll do that tomorrow |
| 01:53 | < catalyst> | it's 2am |
| 01:53 | <&McMartin> | Sounds good |
| 01:54 | < catalyst> | (incidentally, the template support is there in theory, the macro support to enable decent use of something like try! I've not figured out yet) |
| 01:54 | < catalyst> | (I'm sort of heading down the 'Well, Alexandrescu might have invented it' path with that) |
| 01:54 | <&McMartin> | (Heh) |
| 01:54 | <&McMartin> | (Yeah, I'm a little vague on exactly what it was I found, and maybe it's just a standardization of template-discriminated unions) |
| 01:54 | < catalyst> | Regardless, I'm pretty happy that I managed to break a compiler xD |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | Definitely a fine accomplishment |
| 01:55 | < catalyst> | boost::variant is likely to make it into the standard |
| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | That is probably what I was thinking of. |
| 01:58 | | * McMartin checks Wiki |
| 01:58 | <&McMartin> | ... oh yes please, can we get boost::filesystem into the standard, its lack is an embarassment |
| 02:01 | < catalyst> | right, I've got the crashing example down to http://paste.ofcode.org/jeHMXTvFkPdQcRsmCZGKGD |
| 02:01 | < catalyst> | ugh |
| 02:01 | < catalyst> | let me fix the whitespace |
| 02:02 | < catalyst> | http://paste.ofcode.org/QTxtPZRaeRYPKDLekzZ6zx |
| 02:02 | < catalyst> | there |
| 02:02 | < catalyst> | ...that still has dodgy whitespace |
| 02:03 | < catalyst> | http://paste.ofcode.org/V2uWMs4HMdacugsK5kbAQC |
| 02:03 | < catalyst> | THERE |
| 02:04 | < catalyst> | oh, wait I can remove the parameter names |
| 02:04 | | * catalyst wonders if she's gone past pedantry into sleepless mania at this point |
| 02:04 | <&McMartin> | Hee |
| 02:07 | < catalyst> | conclusion: definitely - http://paste.ofcode.org/pq9LjVbtQPU9Mr4kGRwRvH |
| 02:09 | < catalyst> | fs, every time I think it's minimal enough I find a way to shave bits off |
| 02:11 | < catalyst> | Pretty sure this is the smallest I'm getting it: http://paste.ofcode.org/3pFkccbKHta7xYYDjNRzCc |
| 02:12 | < catalyst> | ...that was a lie |
| 02:15 | < catalyst> | http://paste.ofcode.org/35JukEyvQmnrf9fR2HxU2EG |
| 02:15 | < catalyst> | :D |
| 02:15 | < catalyst> | (someone tell me to stop) |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | plz stop |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | go to bed |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | you're drunk |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | on power |
| 02:19 | <&Derakon> | And possibly on alcohol. |
| 02:21 | < catalyst> | I'm teetotal for a reason |
| 02:21 | < catalyst> | I feel like I might be an alright programmer right now, though |
| 02:22 | <&Derakon> | Ahh, then you are in the madness place~ |
| 02:22 | <&Derakon> | Delusions of competence strike us all from time to time. |
| 02:23 | <&McMartin> | Now now |
| 02:23 | <~Vornicus> | So wait that's -- hang on, you've done - built a "base" struct that contains a "foo" and a "bar", and then building a derived object that-- I don't know what the hell you're doing with that using |
| 02:23 | <&McMartin> | using is the new typedef |
| 02:23 | <@Reiv> | If Vornicus can't follow it, I am relieved. |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | Oh wait |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | That is "re-import the declarations from _____", I think |
| 02:24 | <&Derakon> | Catalyst and McM have openly admitted that this is deep magic. |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | using itself is not so much deep magic |
| 02:24 | <&Derakon> | I sincerely hope there's no shame in not understanding it because I don't have a clue. |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | But it's one of The New Bits |
| 02:24 | <&Derakon> | Well, maybe not using necessarily, but std::forward et al. |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 02:24 | <&Derakon> | (I also don't know what using is either~) |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | That's now missing from the latest |
| 02:24 | <&Derakon> | (I mean, aside from "using namespace std"~) |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | (In C++98, it was the equivalent to... yeah) |
| 02:25 | < catalyst> | the latest one is pretty simple |
| 02:25 | < catalyst> | derived is is a class that wants to use the constructors from base |
| 02:25 | < catalyst> | is just* |
| 02:25 | <&McMartin> | ! |
| 02:25 | < catalyst> | wait, I was wrong |
| 02:25 | <&McMartin> | And that's a private derivation, isn't it |
| 02:25 | < catalyst> | I can reduce it further |
| 02:25 | < catalyst> | it works with public as well |
| 02:25 | <&Derakon> | You're playing golf with crash-the-compiler? |
| 02:25 | <&McMartin> | ... yes? |
| 02:25 | < catalyst> | I have been for the past hour, what of it? |
| 02:25 | <&McMartin> | That's standard practice |
| 02:26 | <&Derakon> | ...yes, you're right. |
| 02:26 | <&McMartin> | "Minimal repro", etc |
| 02:26 | <&Derakon> | A minimal reproducing sample is generally appreciated by the developers of whatever you're filing a bug report against. |
| 02:26 | < catalyst> | oh shit dawg |
| 02:27 | < catalyst> | oh, no, that is the minimal one |
| 02:27 | < catalyst> | you need to derive from a templated type with two templated constructors |
| 02:28 | < catalyst> | onto templated types |
| 02:28 | < catalyst> | then attempt to use one of them |
| 02:28 | < catalyst> | and it crashes without any other error output |
| 02:28 | < catalyst> | there appears to be another report of the same assert with like 500kb of compressed source attached :| |
| 02:29 | | * catalyst thinks that perhaps hers might be more useful |
| 02:29 | <&Derakon> | Haha. |
| 02:30 | | * McMartin confirms that g++ will compile the code |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | But not link it >_> |
| 02:30 | < catalyst> | xD |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | (But that code won't link alone, anyway; none of declared constructors are defined, and there's no main) |
| 02:30 | < catalyst> | it's kind of past being useful at this point |
| 02:31 | <~Vornicus> | 300 bytes is a little bit better than ...I guess it'd probably come out to 2MB |
| 02:31 | < catalyst> | McM: try this? http://paste.ofcode.org/AJFvS4sFbsTiM4fn52TjFb |
| 02:33 | <&McMartin> | Works |
| 02:33 | <&McMartin> | well |
| 02:33 | <&McMartin> | "control reaches end of non-void function" |
| 02:33 | | * McMartin adds a return 0, works |
| 02:33 | < catalyst> | coolio |
| 02:33 | < catalyst> | (incidentally, the standard mandates that that implicitly returns 0) |
| 02:33 | < catalyst> | (so :P) |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | Even if it didn't though, hitting an assertion in the front end is *always* a compiler bug |
| 02:35 | < catalyst> | oh, sure |
| 02:35 | < catalyst> | given that correct code does not compile |
| 02:35 | <&McMartin> | And incorrect code is not correctly signalling an error |
| 02:36 | < catalyst> | aye |
| 02:36 | < catalyst> | well, it is... just orthogonal to the useful one ;) |
| 02:36 | < catalyst> | (honestly, I suffer ridiculously from imposter syndrome :/) |
| 02:37 | <&McMartin> | You can file this episode in your counterexample file >_> |
| 02:40 | < catalyst> | <.< |
| 02:40 | < catalyst> | (you think this is something that's uncommon to find?) |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | (Yes) |
| 02:41 | <&McMartin> | (Getting into corners deep enough that you hit compiler crashes in release-quality compilers is rare, and isolating it within two hours is A Feat.) |
| 02:42 | < catalyst> | it looks so innocuous |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | It's a baby scorpion! :D |
| 02:44 | < catalyst> | I guess if I look at what I was trying to achieve with the original code, writing that within a few hours belies that I implicitly understand move semantics and perfect forwarding, placement new/delete and templated name lookup |
| 02:44 | < catalyst> | and the rules about lvalue collapsing within template argument type deduction |
| 02:44 | < catalyst> | ...that last sentence is probably enough evidence by itself |
| 02:46 | < catalyst> | I also love the mental image of playing golf with compiler crashes |
| 02:47 | <&McMartin> | They keep driving the little cart into lakes and sand traps, the bastids |
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| 03:05 | <@Reiv> | catadroid: Yeah, so, that entire sentence is Magic Wizard Words and I am generally pretty decent at parsing technical talk, it's my job |
| 03:06 | <@Reiv> | So yes, you're just fine~ |
| 03:08 | | * catadroid nods |
| 03:09 | < catadroid> | It's.. the concept seems quite simple but I'm also weird so |
| 03:10 | < catadroid> | I guess it only matters if you are writing very abstracted generic code |
| 03:11 | < catadroid> | And it determines whether things are moved or copied |
| 03:16 | <@Reiv> | It is /far/ from simple |
| 03:17 | <@Reiv> | It is only simple once you've already internalised several other complex topics, themselves only making sense in the context of a whole swirling world around them. |
| 03:17 | <@Reiv> | This being one of those things like where you can explain the theory of relativity very simply indeed... but to actually use the sucker requires you to have done all the hard work beforehand yourself. "But I can explain it simply" just means you've mastered it. ;) |
| 03:23 | <&McMartin> | I think I could manage to explain move semantics, but I'd want about three days of prep work writing slides and rehearsing lectures |
| 03:30 | <@Reiv> | Hence: Not exactly 'simple' |
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| 06:57 | <&jeroud> | catadroid: If we were in the market for your skillset and I were authorised to do so, I would offer you a job at the maximum salary our budget could handle just on the strength of that conversation. |
| 06:59 | <&jeroud> | That demonstrates the kind of directed competence that is extremely rare to find. |
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| 08:30 | < catadroid> | jerith: that's extremely heartening |
| 08:40 | < catadroid> | jeroud even, sigh |
| 08:47 | < catadroid> | Move semantics are where you can transfer internal state from one object to another. You begin with one externally valid object and end with one externally valid object. Copy semantics only ever allows to begin with one valid object and end with two valid objects. C++11 allows you to distinguish these cases by overloading functions - you use a reference when the object is to be copied, and the new rvalue reference when it is to be moved. Situati |
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| 08:49 | < catadroid> | This has two effects - when users naturally refer to complex objects by value, the code is naturally faster because the language elides a lot of pointless copies. |
| 08:51 | < catadroid> | And you can use the compiler to enforce uniqueness by only declaring the move operations and not the copies (which is what enables unique_ptr) |
| 08:54 | < catadroid> | The template type deduction rules now allow you to write template arguments that decay to either an old style reference or an rvalue reference - so your code is optimal in the case where you are allowed to move into functions deeper in your implementation but keeps a reference to the original object if not |
| 08:57 | < catadroid> | And you only have to write one implementation to cover both cases. In code this looks like an rvalue reference to a template type - but it might decay to either be an rvalue reference or an lvalue reference depending on whether the thing passed to you was either of those things. The problem is that once your argument is named, it is treated as an lvalue reference. Perfect forwarding allows you to use the original template argument to preserve th |
| 09:01 | < catadroid> | Again, this is achieved by casting the type of the object to call the correct overload - this is what std::forward does. |
| 09:01 | < catadroid> | And if any of that makes sense, then I'm glad. |
| 09:19 | <@gnolam> | Well, some of it got cut off. |
| 09:19 | <@gnolam> | ".. when it is to be moved. Situati", "... reference to the original object if not ", "... allows you to use the original template argument to preserve th" |
| 09:33 | < catadroid> | http://pastebin.com/j3w4QKxX |
| 09:33 | < catadroid> | ^ couldn't make it paste into either of my preferred places so have one at the devil's site |
| 11:12 | < catadroid> | I do feel like less of a fraud than normal, which is nice |
| 11:19 | <@TheWatcher> | \o/ |
| 11:22 | <@gnolam> | Yay! With the Scotch-draining "port a custom printing solution from 20 years ago" stuff brought up to a working level (it prints, and I can change stuff in a WYSIWYG interface rather than an arcane proprietary macro language), I can finally start /adding/ features. |
| 11:23 | <@TheWatcher> | Now the madness truly begins!~ |
| 11:47 | < catadroid> | :D |
| 11:48 | | * TheWatcher ponders that to call this function |
| 11:50 | <@TheWatcher> | I suspect it should be `sub deepfork { ... }`, but that seems wrong somehow... |
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| 14:49 | <@froztbyte> | http://blog.chipx86.com/2016/01/26/a-tribute-to-vmware-workstation-fusion-and-ho sted-ui/ |
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| 16:04 | < Natanial> | hi |
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| 16:22 | <&jeroud> | Hello Natanial. |
| 16:22 | <@gnolam> | ... and of course I had to go back and redo the arcane macro language parser >_< |
| 16:22 | <&jeroud> | Do you write software? |
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| 16:23 | <&jeroud> | If not, this channel is an excellent place to learn. :-) |
| 16:26 | <@gnolam> | And with that I naturally also discovered that the vertical alignment is off between the editor and the output. |
| 16:26 | | * gnolam sighs. |
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| 16:29 | <@gnolam> | Relatedly, the Hardest Problem in Computer Science also applies to file extensions. |
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| 16:46 | <@Alek> | Naming Things? I heard it was tied with Cache Invalidation. |
| 16:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | The two hardest problems in CS are naming things, cache invalidation, and counting. |
| 16:57 | <&McMartin> | That sure is problems 0-2. |
| 17:31 | <@Alek> | :P |
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| 18:47 | < abudhabi> | http://www.adityaravishankar.com/projects/games/commandos/ |
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| 20:42 | < Natanel> | hi? |
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| 20:54 | <@gnolam> | ToxicFrog: I prefer the phrasing "... and off-by-one errors". |
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| 21:35 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
| 21:41 | | * Azash scratches head |
| 21:41 | < Azash> | Has anyone here ever embedded an LCD display (from a monitor or similar, desktop use sized) in wood or similar? |
| 21:46 | <@gnolam> | How big? If it's small enough, you don't have to worry about heat. |
| 21:50 | < Azash> | gnolam: Well ventilation can always be sorted |
| 21:50 | < Azash> | My thoughts are mainly how I should go about attaching it |
| 21:54 | | Meatyhandbag [sebastianfe@Nightstar-6bm.1a3.224.136.IP] has quit [Client exited] |
| 22:01 | <@gnolam> | Are you dealing with a screen that's meant to be embedded or are you embedding a regular consumer screen? |
| 22:02 | <@gnolam> | (I'm counting a laptop screen as the former) |
| 22:09 | < Azash> | It'd probably be the latter |
| 22:09 | < Azash> | Unless I stumble on affordable ones of the former that have usable resolution |
| 22:12 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 22:35 | | Reiv_ [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-q8avec.kinect.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 22:36 | | Reiv [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-q8avec.kinect.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| --- Log closed Thu Jan 28 00:00:26 2016 |