| --- Log opened Sun Apr 26 00:00:14 2015 |
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| 07:47 | < kourbou|brkfst> | " $ ar x "matey, the treasure" ar: matey, the tresure does not exist" |
| 07:48 | < kourbou|brkfst> | Another reason why Unix is great. |
| 07:49 | < abudhabi> | Haha. |
| 07:50 | < kourbou|brkfst> | Unix is also very twisted: { look; find; talk; grep; touch; finger; find; flex; unzip; |
| 07:50 | < kourbou|brkfst> | mount; workbone; fsck; yes; gasp; fsck; yes; eject; umount; makeclean; |
| 07:50 | < kourbou|brkfst> | zip; split; done; exit } |
| 07:54 | < kourbou|brkfst> | " The program apt-get is currently not installed. You can install it by typing apt-get install apt" |
| 07:57 | <&jeroud> | How do you get a Debianoid without apt? |
| 07:57 | <&jeroud> | Uninstall it or something? |
| 08:00 | < kourbou|brkfst> | Uh. |
| 08:00 | < kourbou|brkfst> | Yeah. |
| 08:01 | < kourbou|brkfst> | You have to run apt-get remove apt |
| 08:01 | < kourbou|brkfst> | I'm not sure if that works tho because you're running and deleting it. |
| 08:03 | < kourbou|brkfst> | I guess you could delete a symlink. |
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| 08:17 | < abudhabi> | Couldn't you use dpkg to remove apt? |
| 08:18 | < kourbou|brkfst> | No idea, you try it. :P |
| 08:20 | < kourbou|brkfst> | Really too lazy to get a VM just to test that. :P |
| 08:21 | < abudhabi> | I once had aptitude remove itself, though. |
| 08:21 | < abudhabi> | Along with pretty much the rest of the system. |
| 08:24 | < kourbou|brkfst> | rm -rf * ? |
| 08:25 | < abudhabi> | No, it was simply an effort to resolve dependency conflicts on upgrade. |
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| 09:19 | <@froztbyte> | jeroud: apt != apt-get |
| 09:19 | <@froztbyte> | (apt, the single command, is newish) |
| 09:22 | < kourbou|work> | aptitude = apt-get? |
| 09:23 | < abudhabi> | No. |
| 09:23 | < kourbou|work> | I remember using aptitude install just like aptitude. |
| 09:23 | < kourbou|work> | apt-get I mean xD |
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| 09:23 | < abudhabi> | In the command line, yeah. |
| 09:24 | < abudhabi> | But it also has a 'graphical' mode. |
| 09:24 | < kourbou|work> | -G? |
| 09:25 | < kourbou|work> | AH nice. |
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| 12:40 | <@froztbyte> | apt != aptitude != apt-get |
| 12:40 | <@froztbyte> | the first will hopefully end up being the nicest in the bunch for general use |
| 12:40 | <@froztbyte> | (as I said, it's a newerish one to have around by default) |
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| 13:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | kourbou: unlike windows, deleting an in-use file is both possible and commonplace on linux. |
| 13:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is, for example, how the package manager can update itself. |
| 13:14 | < kourbou> | Oh |
| 13:14 | < kourbou> | So the file is loaded in RAM? |
| 13:14 | < kourbou> | before executing? |
| 13:17 | <@Tamber> | Deleting it (unlinking) removes the human-friendly entry you can use to find it, but doesn't remove the actual contents of the file, until all processes accessing it end. So as long as something's still got it open to read, and you know where to look, it's still there. (AFAIUI) |
| 13:20 | <@froztbyte> | correct |
| 13:21 | <@froztbyte> | the file "name" is, so to speak, disjoint from the file "location" (on disk) |
| 13:21 | < kourbou> | Alright |
| 13:21 | <@froztbyte> | when you access the name, your application gets given a file handle, which is a sort of shorthand direct reference to the location |
| 13:21 | < kourbou> | Interesting |
| 13:22 | < kourbou> | yeah |
| 13:22 | < kourbou> | like a pointer |
| 13:22 | < kourbou> | ? |
| 13:22 | <@froztbyte> | something like that, yes |
| 13:22 | <@froztbyte> | so what happens when you do something like delete and create a new file, you actually just remove the initial name, create some more data at another location, and create a new name pointing at that new location |
| 13:23 | <@froztbyte> | when everything with a handle on the old location closes, the filesystem will do whatever it needs to do to mark the old space as available |
| 13:23 | <@froztbyte> | (typically this involves clearing some inodes) |
| 13:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is also kinda why hardlinks are possible; a given file can have zero names referencing it, or lots. |
| 13:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | (this also means you can create temp files that exist on disk and that you have a handle to, but which have no name at all) |
| 13:31 | < kourbou> | Meaing you could flash th kernel while running it? :O |
| 13:33 | <@froztbyte> | the kernel doesn't quite run the same way, but there are mechanisms for that |
| 13:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | That's even easier, AIUI, since the kernel and initrd are copied entirely into RAM at boot and no file handles are ever opened to them |
| 13:33 | <@froztbyte> | something like ksplice allows for rebootless upgrades |
| 13:33 | <@froztbyte> | (with some caveats taken into account) |
| 13:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | But usually you just put the new kernel next to the old one and reboot or kexec into it |
| 13:34 | <@froztbyte> | ^ that |
| 13:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | (rebootless kernel upgrades are a different and much more difficult sack of ferrets) |
| 13:35 | < kourbou> | Cool. |
| 13:35 | < kourbou> | Linus Torvalds is a clever guy. |
| 13:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | He copied this behaviour pretty much exact from UNIX, actually~ |
| 13:45 | < kourbou> | lol |
| 13:45 | < kourbou> | Maybe |
| 13:45 | < kourbou> | But you can't deny his kernel is good. |
| 13:45 | <@froztbyte> | sure can |
| 13:45 | <@froztbyte> | it's pretty janky |
| 13:51 | < kourbou> | janky? |
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| 15:50 | | * Tarinaky blarghs. |
| 15:51 | <@Tarinaky> | I need a way to graph out a reource/dependency network |
| 15:51 | <@Tarinaky> | *resource |
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| 17:48 | <@froztbyte> | kourbou|isolated: not as good as you might think |
| 17:49 | <@froztbyte> | Tarinaky: well, there's stuff like graphviz and whatever |
| 17:49 | <@froztbyte> | and a whole bunch of JS/webby things |
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| 20:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: graphvizzzzzzzzzzzzzz |
| 20:04 | <@Tarinaky> | Graphiz requires learning dot :/ |
| 20:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's pretty simple if all you want to do with it is simple things |
| 20:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | If you'd rather manually place your boxes and arrows, Dia. |
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| 23:39 | <~Vornicus> | I could never get graphviz to do what I want without essentially manually placing boxes and arrows. |
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| --- Log closed Mon Apr 27 00:00:30 2015 |