| --- Log opened Mon Mar 23 00:00:14 2015 |
| 00:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | True |
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| 00:09 | <@Reiv> | I am desirous of being able to assemble a 3D map. |
| 00:09 | <@Reiv> | Out of hexagons. |
| 00:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 00:09 | <@Reiv> | Because I am a madman, obviously. |
| 00:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Not love2d, then. |
| 00:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | 3d how? |
| 00:09 | <@Reiv> | My current plan is, hm |
| 00:11 | <@Reiv> | http://www.howardmodels.com/0-topographic/topographic-map-models/st-louis-glenca iru/glencairu2.jpg but with hexes making up the terrain? Does that parse? |
| 00:15 | <@Reiv> | As in, I fully intend to leave it with little 'steps' between the different layers and everything. |
| 00:15 | <@Reiv> | Because why not. |
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| 00:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: so, Heroscape or Greed Corp style |
| 00:30 | <@Reiv> | Right |
| 00:30 | <@Reiv> | (Thank you, I'd forgotten the name of Greed Corp) |
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| 01:42 | <@thalass> | Hey does anyone know a bootable linux antivirus distro off the top of their heads? |
| 01:43 | <@thalass> | My google fu is failing me again |
| 02:18 | <~Vornicus> | Reiv: so I'd go for 2d, actually, in the "isometric" layout |
| 02:21 | <~Vornicus> | Then you can push them up or down; just make sure your models have sides, and that you do z-order rendering |
| 02:22 | <&Derakon> | What does this buy him over letting an engine handle the 3D? |
| 02:22 | <&Derakon> | I mean, even if logically it's a 2D surface, you don't want to deal with 3D-ifying things yourself. |
| 02:23 | <@Reiv> | I was about to ask why I wouldn't just run a 3D engine. |
| 02:54 | <~Vornicus> | Big one is that 2d assets are still a lot easier to create than 3d |
| 02:54 | <~Vornicus> | and you don't have to worry about how to do T&L |
| 02:57 | <&Derakon> | Ehh, I don't think that slapping a texture on a quad to fake 3D is a big deal. |
| 02:57 | <&Derakon> | Lighting can be aggravating potentially, but for a board game setup you'd only need to deal with it once, and it wouldn't need to be complicated. |
| 03:29 | <@Reiv> | T&L? |
| 03:29 | <@Reiv> | oh |
| 03:29 | <@Reiv> | hm |
| 03:29 | <@Reiv> | Yes that is the challenge isn't it |
| 03:29 | <@Reiv> | The three games I want to make are all 2D, or 2D*. |
| 03:30 | <@Reiv> | (* By default, but 3D would be useful in specific bits) |
| 03:30 | <@Reiv> | So perhaps I need to pick a 3D engine based on how well it handles 2D cleanly. |
| 03:30 | <@Reiv> | >_> |
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| 04:09 | <&Derakon> | Unity and UE4 both have decent support for 2D-in-3D, as I understand it. |
| 04:09 | <&Derakon> | But bed now. |
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| 08:44 | < abudhabi> | Is there any way to speed up the rendering of a big table? |
| 08:44 | < abudhabi> | I have a table of approx. 1000 rows. |
| 08:45 | < abudhabi> | It loads, slowly, showing a few dozen new rows per second. |
| 08:46 | < abudhabi> | 1MB of page, 22 seconds to render. |
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| 08:49 | <@macdjord> | abudhabi: Context, please? Web page, loading from a DB backend? DB interface accessed directly? What DB? What interface? |
| 08:49 | <@macdjord> | Or do you mean an HTML <table>? |
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| 08:52 | < abudhabi> | HTML, yes. I'm unsure that the backend is the problem - the query returns the results in no appreciable time, and since the page starts rendering, I expect that it had already been prepared by the server. At the same time, saving the page to a local file leads to instant page loading, with none of the gradual, incremental table loading that I see when I access the remote (though still localhost) page. |
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| 08:53 | < abudhabi> | I've determined that the list.js plugin I'm using for searching and pagination not to be the problem (turning it off doesn't speed up rendering). |
| 08:54 | < abudhabi> | Removing styles from the table also did not improve rendering speed. |
| 08:56 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|afk |
| 08:56 | <@macdjord|slep> | abudhabi: Most browser will happily render a page piecemeal as it comes in, as it happens. Try checking the dev tools - there should be something in there that lets you visualise communications to and from the server; that will tell you how long the actual loading process takes. |
| 08:56 | <@macdjord|slep> | Now, 'tis time for me to sleep. |
| 08:57 | <@macdjord|slep> | Keep talking, though; whoever's next up will likely answer when they can. |
| 08:58 | < abudhabi> | Already using dev tools. |
| 08:58 | < abudhabi> | It tells me that the js and css stuff gets loaded in 2-4 milliseconds each, and the html takes ~22000 milliseconds. |
| 09:14 | < abudhabi> | What could be the reason that the page loads slowly from the server but very quickly from a static HTML file? |
| 09:17 | < abudhabi> | The server log shows a huge amount of net.sourceforge.stripes.controller.UrlBindingFactory matches. |
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| 09:51 | <@TheWatcher> | Most browsers are pretty shit at rendering large tables, and loading them incrementally can cause page reflows which make it even slower |
| 09:51 | <@TheWatcher> | A better question is wehther you need to show more than a part of the table at a time |
| 09:52 | <@TheWatcher> | say, 30-50 rows, and some pagination controls |
| 09:55 | < abudhabi> | Found the problem: The server was actually taking so damn long generating the page and sending piecemeal. |
| 12:38 | | * gnolam eyes VB6. |
| 12:38 | <@gnolam> | Storing Booleans as 16-bit ints, eh? |
| 13:08 | < abudhabi> | Anyone know AJAX in here? |
| 13:08 | < abudhabi> | Specifically, I'm looking at Prototype. |
| 13:08 | < abudhabi> | I want to know how its Request works. |
| 13:09 | < abudhabi> | (I mean, Ajax.Request.) |
| 13:10 | < abudhabi> | How does one specify the parameters? |
| 13:18 | <@TheWatcher> | new Ajax.Request(url, { method: 'POST', parameters: 'key=value&foo=bar', onsuccess: function(transport) { console.log(transport.responseText); } }); |
| 13:19 | <@TheWatcher> | you can also use |
| 13:19 | <@TheWatcher> | parameters: { foo: 'bar', 'value': somevar } |
| 13:21 | < abudhabi> | Ah, thanks. |
| 13:21 | <@TheWatcher> | (and yes, the docs for it are shit) |
| 13:38 | <&McMartin> | The docs may be awful, but from your explanation it seems like a pretty reasonable API |
| 13:38 | <&McMartin> | I've seen worse than that in a lot of languages. |
| 13:42 | <@TheWatcher> | Indeed |
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| 14:50 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[d00m] |
| 14:51 | < abudhabi> | TheWatcher[d00m]: Are you sure about that syntax? I'm getting a syntax error. |
| 14:53 | < [R]> | abudhabi: paste your code please. |
| 14:55 | < abudhabi> | Can't, NDA. |
| 14:55 | < abudhabi> | I've located the problem, though. |
| 15:14 | <@Tarinaky> | Does anyone have any advice for typing software on an onscreen keyboard? I've already bound ESC to 'qqq' in vim. |
| 15:15 | <@Tarinaky> | s/typing software/coding/ |
| 15:19 | < [R]> | Why... |
| 15:20 | <@Tarinaky> | Because I don't have a laptop anymore, it broke. |
| 15:21 | <@Tarinaky> | And my boyfriend tends to monopolise my desktop when he comes over. |
| 15:21 | <@Tarinaky> | Because he doesn't have a desktop atm. |
| 15:21 | <@Tarinaky> | And I tend to have my boyfriend over a lot atm because I like sleeping with him. |
| 15:24 | < [R]> | USB keyboard? (BTW you haven't specified an OS on your OSK device) |
| 15:25 | <@Tarinaky> | Windows 8 |
| 15:25 | <@Tarinaky> | Like... proper Windows. |
| 15:25 | <@Tarinaky> | I wanted to get a keyboard with it but none of the ones they sold actually worked.. |
| 15:25 | < [R]> | lolwut |
| 15:25 | <@Tarinaky> | Yeah :/ |
| 15:26 | < [R]> | Did you buy the world's shittiest tablet? |
| 15:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Quite possibly. |
| 15:26 | <@Tarinaky> | I originally got it to watch movies on the road, replace my first-gen Kindle and to fit in my handbag. |
| 15:27 | <@Tarinaky> | £99 |
| 15:27 | < [R]> | Ah |
| 15:30 | <@Tarinaky> | It's a bit smaller than an iPad, so it's hard to find compact keyboards for. |
| 15:30 | <@Tarinaky> | And I don't /really/ want to have to carry some horrible Cyberdeck sized thing with me when I travel. |
| 15:31 | <&McMartin> | Cyberdecks are sooooo 2012 |
| 15:31 | <&McMartin> | >_> |
| 15:32 | <@Tarinaky> | Anyway, yeah. |
| 15:32 | < [R]> | Found something that might do you, but it's non-free (in the non-GNU sense) |
| 15:32 | < [R]> | http://www.comfort-software.com/on-screen-keyboard.html |
| 15:33 | <@Tarinaky> | tbh Windows already has a decent onscreen keyboard. |
| 15:33 | <@Tarinaky> | It's just super hard to click on small stuff. |
| 15:34 | < [R]> | http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/07/17/designing-the-windows-8-touch-keyb oard.aspx |
| 15:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Yup. |
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| 16:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh yeah. |
| 16:39 | <@Tarinaky> | btw. |
| 16:39 | <@Tarinaky> | They might have found life* on Mars. |
| 16:39 | <@Tarinaky> | (* Organic molecules) |
| 16:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Noting, of course, that the most likely source for any positive reading is contamination from the probe itself. |
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| 16:44 | | * Derakon WTFs at Clojure. |
| 16:44 | <&Derakon> | I added this line to some code we're using to set up a metadata map: |
| 16:44 | <&Derakon> | "ProfileName" (.getProfileName DefaultUserProfile/getInstance) |
| 16:45 | <&Derakon> | And when I try to compile, I get the error "Unable to find static field: getInstance in class org.micromanager.internal.utils.DefaultUserProfile" |
| 16:45 | <&Derakon> | But! |
| 16:45 | <&Derakon> | Immediately before that error occurs, I see a log message from DefaultUserProfile's code, complaining that it tried to load the user's profile file and couldn't find it. |
| 16:45 | <&Derakon> | So the Clojure compiler is running the code in DefaultUserProfile! |
| 16:45 | <&Derakon> | :wtc: |
| 16:47 | <&Derakon> | Complete compile dump: http://pastebin.com/RaCPRdH9 |
| 16:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Derakon: if you have top-level forms in a file, they will be evaluated when the file is loaded by the compiler, yes, same as in lua or python. |
| 16:49 | <&McMartin> | Unlike Lua and Python, they are only evaluated once, at compile time, as opposed to "when you run it", like Python |
| 16:50 | <&Derakon> | Um... |
| 16:51 | <&Derakon> | So the way this is supposed to work, DefaultUserProfile is a global singleton, that loads the user's profile at runtime. |
| 16:51 | <&Derakon> | (If it can't find the profile, it makes up a new blank one) |
| 16:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | Is DefaultUserProfile implemented in Clojure, and if so can you paste the source? |
| 16:51 | <&Derakon> | No, it's Java, but I can paste it. A moment. |
| 16:52 | <&Derakon> | http://pastebin.com/cmD8m1xC |
| 16:52 | <&Derakon> | In particular, lines 36-38 cause it to self-initialize, and getInstance is on line 714. |
| 16:53 | <&Derakon> | Oh, or you can see the file here: https://github.com/ChrisWeisiger/micro-manager/blob/mm2/mmstudio/src/org/microma nager/internal/utils/DefaultUserProfile.java |
| 16:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...I've never seen a static {} block like that in Java |
| 16:54 | <&McMartin> | Class Initializer |
| 16:54 | <&McMartin> | Runs on class load. |
| 16:55 | <&Derakon> | Saves me from having to have "new DefaultUserProfile()" in main() somewhere. |
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| 16:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | But at a guess that looks like it should cause the new expression to fire on class load, which will fire the constructor, which will call loadPropertyMap() |
| 16:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | And the compiler needs to load the class to see what it contains |
| 16:56 | <&Derakon> | Well |
| 16:56 | <&Derakon> | That's weird but not really harmful. |
| 16:56 | <&Derakon> | Doesn't explain why I can't do getInstance() though. |
| 16:56 | <&Derakon> | Which is what's actually preventing the Clojure code from compiling. |
| 17:03 | <&Derakon> | NB it's also kind of weird how after the compiler error, I have to manually kill the compilation process -- that is, it doesn't exit on its own. Maybe because of the code run by DefaultUserProfile? |
| 17:03 | <&McMartin> | If it starts a nondaemon thread that could happen |
| 17:03 | <&McMartin> | (I'm not going to be nearly as on-grid as usual today, sorry) |
| 17:04 | <&Derakon> | (No worries) |
| 17:04 | <&Derakon> | Ooh, yeah, and DefaultUserProfile spins up a new thread to handle saving changes to disk asynchronously. |
| 17:04 | <&Derakon> | That is a problem. Hm. |
| 17:07 | <&Derakon> | Okay, I've reworked it so we go through the API access to the profile instead of accessing it directly, which avoids loading the DefaultUserProfile module. |
| 17:08 | <&Derakon> | Still seems like Clojure ought to be able to compile without having to load Java code. I mean, it's got the Java compiler available, right? |
| 17:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | My understanding is that it loads the .class file and pokes at it using the reflection API |
| 17:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | And if the mere act of loading the .class causes code to execute, there you go |
| 17:12 | <&Derakon> | So it's an implementation flaw, is what you're saying~ |
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| 17:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Derakon: I'm honestly not sure what the better alternatives would be here. |
| 17:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Require that the source code be available for any Java libraries you want to call into? |
| 17:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | Write their own classfile parser that reads the signatures without actually letting the JVM see it? |
| 17:17 | <&Derakon> | ...hm. |
| 17:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | Do everything at runtime with reflection? ...ok, you can actually do that, but it's slower and by default the compiler will warn you if you're reflecting rather than resolving things at compile time where that could be avoided. |
| 17:19 | <&Derakon> | Okay, I don't have a good answer for that. |
| 17:19 | <&Derakon> | But it still bugs me that a "Compile" step ends up actually running my code. |
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| 17:25 | | * ToxicFrog nods |
| 17:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | Derakon: asked in #clojure, apparently there is actually a .forNameNonLoading API that can be used here and Clojure 1.7 uses it |
| 17:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | So once that drops (or if you're comfortable using HEAD) this problem goes away. |
| 17:32 | <&Derakon> | Cool, glad someone was working on it. |
| 17:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1315 |
| 17:34 | <&Derakon> | Ultimately we want to get rid of Clojure use altogether (at least as part of the main program; it might stick around for plugins but those are restricted to the API anyway). |
| 17:34 | <&Derakon> | So I don't think we're likely to upgrade our Clojure version. |
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| 19:29 | | * abudhabi lols at the DICSS affair. |
| 19:41 | <@iospace> | should I get a mechanical keyboard for work or no? |
| 19:41 | <@iospace> | abudhabi: the what? |
| 19:42 | <@Namegduf> | iospace: If noise is manageable. |
| 19:42 | <@iospace> | someone has a model M here |
| 19:44 | < abudhabi> | iospace: Some guy made a CSS injector. It is named DICSS. The documentation is full of dick jokes. |
| 19:44 | <@iospace> | heh |
| 19:44 | < abudhabi> | The concern trolls from Tumblr have descended on it. |
| 19:44 | < abudhabi> | The author is revelling in all the attention. |
| 19:44 | <@iospace> | oh dumblr |
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| 20:38 | <@Reiv> | Concern trolls? |
| 20:41 | < abudhabi> | http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=concern+troll |
| 20:43 | < abudhabi> | https://github.com/letsgetrandy/DICSS/issues/15 <- The thread in question. |
| 20:44 | < abudhabi> | And this: https://github.com/letsgetrandy/DICSS/pull/16 |
| 20:45 | < abudhabi> | https://github.com/letsgetrandy/DICSS/pull/16/files |
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| 20:59 | <@gnolam> | Dammit. Now I have "Eat Randy" stuck in my brain. |
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| 21:09 | <@gnolam> | (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqKPe9w5bUs ) |
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| 21:20 | | * McMartin learns a small amount about how .deb files work |
| 21:23 | < kourbou> | lol gnolam: nice find. :) |
| 22:04 | <@Reiv> | So, specific issue above and beyond "I don't think this is appropriate", up to "You're getting in trouble and/or look bad" stuff |
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| 22:16 | <&McMartin> | http://kernelmag.dailydot.com/issue-sections/features-issue-sections/12228/mac-p lus-modern-web/ |
| 22:17 | <&McMartin> | There are stock hobbyist solutions for this stuff for the 8-bit Commodores. -_- |
| 22:18 | <&McMartin> | (But those mostly involve speaking nothing more complex than telnet) |
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| 22:22 | < abudhabi> | Reiv: Guy makes software with dick jokes. Another guy cries "SEXISM!!@!!@!!!111one!" and demands that the software be *removed* and apologized for. |
| 22:23 | < abudhabi> | This is like shirtgate all over again. |
| 22:25 | <@Reiv> | Sounds about right |
| 22:26 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: This deserves breathless reporting because it's a *mac*, duh |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | Reiv: Well, it's also running a full TCP stack |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | And software of the time |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | That's honestly kind of a big deal, and I haven't seen that before. |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | I've seen modern stacks backported, but to IIgs, which came *later*, and I've seen older machines acting as dumb terminals (as they note at the start) |
| 22:28 | <&McMartin> | I guess technically we've also seen it backported to the SNES, because of Pokemon Plays Twitch~ |
| 22:30 | <@Reiv> | That's a fair point then |
| 22:30 | < abudhabi> | PPT? |
| 22:31 | <&McMartin> | http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/01/pokemon-plays-twitch-how-a-robot-got-irc-r unning-on-an-unmodified-snes/ |
| 22:31 | <&McMartin> | A stunt at Awesome Games Done Quick last year |
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| --- Log closed Tue Mar 24 00:00:25 2015 |