| --- Log opened Wed Mar 11 00:00:03 2015 |
| 00:31 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 01:11 | <&Derakon> | Couldn't you just use some isopropyl alcohol? |
| 01:11 | <&Derakon> | It's like $2/bottle. |
| 01:13 | | Thalass [thalass@Nightstar-h1qmno.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 01:13 | <@Alek> | or that. >_> |
| 02:05 | < RchrdB> | Alek: if you're cleaning electrical contacts, try iso-propyl alcohol. |
| 02:06 | < RchrdB> | oh nvm Derakon beat me to it |
| 02:06 | < RchrdB> | cheaper and better at dehydrating shit |
| 02:06 | < RchrdB> | just don't even think about drinking the stuff |
| 02:06 | <@Alek> | :P |
| 02:07 | <@Alek> | I actually meant more as a use for vodka you're not gonna drink. |
| 02:12 | < RchrdB> | oh |
| 02:12 | < RchrdB> | molotovs? |
| 02:12 | < RchrdB> | just dilute it with orange juice until it's only about 5% abv then drink it |
| 02:12 | < RchrdB> | practically nonalcoholic |
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| 09:18 | < abudhabi> | Why is there a <input type="submit"> and <button type="submit">? |
| 09:33 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|afk |
| 09:48 | <@TheWatcher> | because <input> will only let you use a text value for the contents of the widget, while <button> allows a mix of text and images. Yes, you can achieve the same effect with input and css. Or with styled divs/spans and onclick handlers.... |
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| 13:09 | < Tarinaky_> | http://www.reddit.com/r/talesfromtechsupport/comments/2yclyb/i_didnt_thought_it_ was_a_real_contract/cp8j1ad |
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| 14:22 | <@gnolam> | Tarinaky_: ? |
| 14:23 | < Tarinaky_> | gnolam: You might have to click parent. I thought the comment funny. |
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| 16:32 | < Tarinaky_> | "So I popped the hood and saw there was an engine. And then I was out of troubleshooting steps." |
| 16:34 | <@Tamber> | s/engine/enormous plastic cover where I thought I remembered an engine being/ |
| 16:37 | < Tarinaky_> | I feel like such a toon looking inside my car. |
| 17:02 | <@Thalass> | No need to pop the bonnet. Just plug in an OBD2 reader, check the fault codes. |
| 17:07 | | mode/#code [+oooooooooooooo abudhabi Xires Attilla grindhold RchrdB VirusJTG Xon HTH Syka Tarinaky_ Turaiel[Offline] EvilDarkLord simon [R]] by Tamber |
| 17:07 | <@Tamber> | I still have no idea how to use the onboard diagnostic port on mine. |
| 17:16 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 17:36 | <@Thalass> | If it's obd2, then you plug the thing in, plug it in to your computer, turn car key to "on". Run program on laptop. Or plug it in, make sure bluetooth is turned on on your device, start Torque, then turn key to "on". |
| 17:40 | <@Tamber> | It is not. :p |
| 17:41 | <@Tamber> | It doesn't quite predate OBDI, but isn't far off. |
| 17:54 | <@Thalass> | Aaaah yeah. I had that same problem on my old car. It had an OBD plug, but it was wired differently and you had to use an expensive Subaru reader. Jerks. |
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| 18:08 | <@Tamber> | It's one of those ones that's a little awkward to find information about, too. Its larger 'relatives' have plenty of information floating around on the web; not so much the little dribbling loon that is Mono-Motronic~ |
| 18:45 | <@Thalass> | dang |
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| 19:57 | <@RchrdB> | Man, the OS X-specific hacks in old versions of Python are SO grody that I actually can't blame OS X itself for them. |
| 19:57 | <@RchrdB> | this code is just diseased |
| 19:58 | <@Shiz> | lol |
| 19:58 | <@Shiz> | what version |
| 19:58 | <@RchrdB> | Please don't judge, we have a legacy-ish codebase here: Python 2.4. |
| 19:59 | <@Shiz> | cpython's impl in general is kinda gross |
| 19:59 | <@Shiz> | i had to dive into it at different times |
| 19:59 | <@RchrdB> | This old version of Python's build infrastructure is full of absolutely toxic-assed hacks for smallish compatibility headaches with historical versions of OS X |
| 20:01 | <@RchrdB> | currently I'm trying to work out if I can do anything about the fact that some code detects the machine as "macosx-10.10-x86_64" and some detects "macosx-10.9-x86_64" |
| 20:04 | <@RchrdB> | Shiz: yeah. I view cpython's impl, on a good day, as a cursèd relic from ye olde 1970s. |
| 20:04 | <@RchrdB> | er, other way around |
| 20:05 | <@RchrdB> | on a bad day, a radioactive shitpile from the day after Woodstock in 1969, when presumably every single computer scientist on Earth had a hangover, simultaneously. |
| 20:24 | | Derakon[AFK] [chriswei@Nightstar-5fqf0m.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 20:25 | <&McMartin> | 12:54 <@RchrdB> currently I'm trying to work out if I can do anything about the fact that some code detects the machine as "macosx-10.10-x86_64" and some detects "macosx-10.9-x86_64" |
| 20:25 | <&McMartin> | You can almost certainly blame OSX for this one. |
| 20:25 | <&McMartin> | The Gestalt call you get to get system versions only returned a value between 0 and 9 for minor version |
| 20:26 | <&McMartin> | And they didn't introduce an actual replacement until 10.10, so there is literally no code sequence that correctly reports the version on both. |
| 20:26 | <&McMartin> | (Beyond "Attempt to dlsym in the 10.10 one, use it if you succeed, otherwise use Gestalt) |
| 20:26 | <@RchrdB> | Yeah, the low bits of the return gestalt("sysv") are 0x1090 |
| 20:26 | <@RchrdB> | which Python interprets as "this is running 10.9" |
| 20:26 | <@RchrdB> | *Python2.4 |
| 20:27 | <&McMartin> | Yes |
| 20:27 | <@Shiz> | if anything else fails, uname -s |
| 20:27 | <@Shiz> | amd a mapping |
| 20:27 | <@Shiz> | ;p |
| 20:27 | <@RchrdB> | why they couldn't have just made it return 0x10A0 I might never understand. |
| 20:27 | <@Shiz> | err |
| 20:27 | <@Shiz> | uname -r |
| 20:27 | <@RchrdB> | Shiz: or that |
| 20:27 | <&McMartin> | So, like, IIRC that was the only option and the correct one when Python 2.4 was written? |
| 20:27 | <@RchrdB> | seriously I would have gone with that |
| 20:27 | <@RchrdB> | os.uname() has SO much less drama in it |
| 20:28 | <@Shiz> | well, there is no linear uname -r -> OSX rel mapping |
| 20:28 | <&McMartin> | It's also officially deprectade~ |
| 20:28 | <&McMartin> | *deprecated |
| 20:28 | <@RchrdB> | McMartin: I guarantee that that isn't the only option, because there's *something else* sneaking around in this Hell of zc.buildout, setuptools and distribute which also detects OS X's version, but detects it as 10.10! |
| 20:28 | <@RchrdB> | McMartin: did you not see "legacy-ish codebase"? :P |
| 20:29 | <&McMartin> | That is fascinating, and implies a later patch if so! |
| 20:29 | <&McMartin> | Because AFAIK the syscall that actually returns 10.10 does not exist in any previous version of OS X it would have been targeting |
| 20:29 | <&McMartin> | So I'm genuinely curious how it's working that out |
| 20:30 | <@RchrdB> | I'll report back when I succeed in getting a pdb.set_trace() call close enough to it to take a look. <3 |
| 20:30 | <@RchrdB> | I really miss strace. :( |
| 20:30 | <@RchrdB> | (I miss BSD's ktrace more, because Linux's strace sucks by comparison, but one step at a time) |
| 20:31 | <&McMartin> | (Sun had this preposterous programmable one that it was impossible to do simple stuff in but which could implement arbitrary instrumentation regimes. You could, IIRC, literally write valgrind in it.) |
| 20:32 | <@RchrdB> | truss? |
| 20:32 | <@Shiz> | dtruss |
| 20:32 | <@Tamber> | dtrace? |
| 20:32 | <@RchrdB> | Right. |
| 20:32 | <@Shiz> | yeah, dtrace |
| 20:32 | <@Shiz> | dtruss is the osx equivalent to strace |
| 20:32 | <@RchrdB> | OS X has dtrace, and dtruss |
| 20:32 | <@Shiz> | a frontend to dtrace |
| 20:32 | <@Tamber> | Ah. |
| 20:32 | <@RchrdB> | but it seems to be incredibly painful to use |
| 20:32 | <@RchrdB> | hence missing strace |
| 20:32 | <@RchrdB> | (strace in turn is somewhat painful to use, hence missing ktrace) |
| 20:33 | <@RchrdB> | (IDK what it does differently, but FreeBSD's ktrace runs with IME hundreds of times less overhead than strace, so you can actually use it on things like Ruby that make gratuitous syscalls without subjecting yourself to a hell of waiting.) |
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| 20:53 | < kourbou> | Hi. |
| 20:54 | <@Shiz> | RchrdB: the most annoying thing about dtruss on osx is that it needs sudo |
| 20:54 | <@Shiz> | :| |
| 20:55 | < kourbou> | Are people gonna hate me if I say i code in C#? :P |
| 20:56 | <@Tamber> | Some will. Some will mean it. Others won't. But then, you'd get that no matter what you say you program in. ;) |
| 20:56 | < kourbou> | True. |
| 20:56 | <@RchrdB> | kourbou: we did have one client ask if they could give us this app in C# for them to deploy on IIS against MSSQL |
| 20:57 | < kourbou> | lol |
| 20:57 | < kourbou> | Sounds tedious. |
| 20:57 | <@RchrdB> | we told them to install Hyper-V instead unless they had >£500k in their budget and about a year's slack in their timeline to have it rewritten from scratch. |
| 20:57 | < kourbou> | lol. |
| 20:58 | <@RchrdB> | (they did... not have half a million quid lying around, nor even a 3-months-away deadline, forget a year plus) |
| 20:58 | < kourbou> | Yeah. |
| 20:59 | < kourbou> | You can't answer to every needs the client has... |
| 20:59 | < kourbou> | Need* |
| 20:59 | <@RchrdB> | McMartin: something something distutils.core seemes to manage it somehow |
| 20:59 | <@RchrdB> | I'm still stepping through |
| 21:00 | < kourbou> | Something somehow somewhat is. |
| 21:00 | < kourbou> | :P |
| 21:01 | < kourbou> | I'd probably get more hate if i coded in Swift-lang. |
| 21:02 | < kourbou> | lol. |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | Swift clearly isn't Done Yet as a language, though it does have a variety of things I want more languages to have |
| 21:02 | < kourbou> | That's true. |
| 21:03 | < kourbou> | But it's not very open source. |
| 21:03 | <&McMartin> | And it only ever runs on one platform |
| 21:03 | < kourbou> | Yeah. |
| 21:03 | <&McMartin> | So choosing it as a language basically means "if you ever intend to develop on anything that isn't a version of OS X 10.10 or later, you can completely ignore everything I'm talking about" |
| 21:03 | < kourbou> | Haha. |
| 21:04 | <&McMartin> | Or I guess iOS... 7? |
| 21:04 | <&McMartin> | That said, DISCRIMINATED UNIONS, MOTHERFUCKERS, DO YOU SWITCH ON THEM |
| 21:04 | < kourbou> | Slight overreaction? :P |
| 21:04 | | * McMartin <3 him some ML-like match/switch semantics |
| 21:04 | <&McMartin> | No, no, that is exactly the bit of Swift more languages need to do :P |
| 21:05 | < kourbou> | Also: new platform, 10k $ gold iWatch. :P |
| 21:06 | < kourbou> | My thoughts on it are: more like "iWatchYouCry" |
| 21:07 | <&McMartin> | I don't cry when I encounter people who had more money than sense. |
| 21:08 | < kourbou> | By that i meant cry because you mortgaged your house. |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | Oh. |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | If anyone mortgages their house to blow $10k on an iWatch they are trying to be a rich bastard without the rich part. |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | Which just leaves them as a bastard, I guess |
| 21:09 | < kourbou> | Heh |
| 21:09 | < kourbou> | Not on any iWatch |
| 21:09 | < kourbou> | A "golden" iWatch |
| 21:09 | < kourbou> | xD |
| 21:10 | <&McMartin> | Having fiddled a little with Swift, it has some ugly corners that it needs to have to do what it was designed to do that I think will limit its uptake outside of "interface with Cocoa and Foundation" |
| 21:10 | <&McMartin> | (In particular, the silly ObjectiveC insistence on interspersing function names with arguments) |
| 21:11 | < kourbou> | ObjectiveC gives me a headache. |
| 21:11 | < kourbou> | Overly complicated for no reason. |
| 21:11 | <@RchrdB> | McMartin: "python setup.py bdist_egg" is getting the correct OS X version by querying distutils.sysconfig.get_config_vars(), which gets it from a copy of the Makefile that the interpeter was built with, stashed in $PREFIX/lib/python2.4/config/Makefile |
| 21:12 | <@RchrdB> | McMartin: the other stuff is getting the wrong OS X version by querying gestalt. |
| 21:12 | <@RchrdB> | why |
| 21:12 | <@RchrdB> | the |
| 21:12 | <@RchrdB> | fuck |
| 21:13 | <@RchrdB> | why the fuck anyone bothered writing code to cope with the shittastic gestalt API when $PREFIX/lib/pythonX.Y/config/Makefile is already there, I have no clue |
| 21:13 | < kourbou> | Time to waste? |
| 21:13 | <&McMartin> | ... have you seriously never worked on a project with more than one developer or |
| 21:13 | <@RchrdB> | McMartin: point. |
| 21:13 | < kourbou> | lol |
| 21:14 | <&McMartin> | Especially since the code for dealing with the shittastic API is one function call and two bitwise operators on the result of it, and would fit in a tweet |
| 21:14 | <@RchrdB> | s'not |
| 21:14 | <@RchrdB> | it's like 50 lines spread over multiple files |
| 21:15 | <&McMartin> | That said, it occurs to me that these are two different questions. |
| 21:15 | <&McMartin> | One of the questions is "which OS was I built on", and the other is "which OS am I running on right now" |
| 21:15 | <&McMartin> | The latter will be wrong for every project written before Yosemite came out when running on Yosemite, because Apple understands deprecation. |
| 21:16 | <@RchrdB> | Boldtext is sarcasm with you, right? |
| 21:16 | <&McMartin> | It depends on context. |
| 21:16 | <@RchrdB> | So yes. |
| 21:16 | <&McMartin> | It does generally mean I'm gesturing wildly or have shifted to a more bombastic tone, and that often means sarcasm. |
| 21:16 | <&McMartin> | But it didn't right there, for instance. |
| 21:16 | <@RchrdB> | Dick. :D |
| 21:16 | <&McMartin> | :D |
| 21:19 | < kourbou> | Well Turaiel told me to f off with my geek jokes so I'm back here. |
| 21:19 | <@RchrdB> | so... /System/Library/CoreServices/SystemVersion.plist was introduced in 10.10? |
| 21:19 | <@Turaiel> | Thanks for twisting my words. |
| 21:19 | < kourbou> | You're very welcome. |
| 21:19 | <&McMartin> | Checking to see what the thing was that was added |
| 21:20 | <&McMartin> | But there's a direct call for "hey what version am I" added in 10.10. |
| 21:20 | <@RchrdB> | The Python 2.7 platform.py reads that plist file and then falls back to Gestalt if it doesn't exist. |
| 21:21 | < kourbou> | Why is our called Gestalt and not Getsalt? :V |
| 21:21 | <&McMartin> | [NSProcessInfo processInfo].operatingSystemVersion is the thing that was introduced in 10.10 |
| 21:22 | < kourbou> | It* |
| 21:22 | <&McMartin> | kourbou: Because "Gestalt" is a word and that is how it is spelled. |
| 21:22 | < kourbou> | Ok then. :( |
| 21:22 | <@RchrdB> | Why the ":("? You weren't being chastised and you just learned a thing! :) |
| 21:22 | < kourbou> | xD |
| 21:23 | <&McMartin> | It is a poor choice of words for what the Gestalt operator actually does, but that's beside the point~ |
| 21:23 | <@Tamber> | RB: Learning things is painful for some people. :p |
| 21:23 | <@RchrdB> | Learning from your own experience always hurts. |
| 21:23 | <&McMartin> | Hrm. I don't have a 10.8 machine handy so I can't check to see if the plist format changed in 10.10 as well |
| 21:23 | <@RchrdB> | Learning from pointing and laughing at other people is practically painless! Except when you double up with laugher and ow. |
| 21:24 | <&McMartin> | Checking on a 10.10 machine I see that the .plist fails to lie, so hooray for that at least. |
| 21:24 | < kourbou> | Well someone told me that when you learn something your brain makes a neuron connection and that connection is matter so my brain for heavier. That's why :( |
| 21:24 | <&McMartin> | (Win8.1 and later do lie) |
| 21:24 | <@RchrdB> | McMartin: but you can confirm that it's there in 10.9? That's really helpful, thank you. |
| 21:24 | <&McMartin> | RchrdB: Er, I can't there either immediately |
| 21:24 | < kourbou> | Is heavier* autocorrect >.> |
| 21:24 | <&McMartin> | Either of these I can check by reaching out to contacts. One moment. |
| 21:24 | <@RchrdB> | Ah, not the end of the world. |
| 21:25 | <@RchrdB> | The python2.7 code actually attempts to look for that plist file, and falls back to Gestalt iff it doesn't exist or can't be read |
| 21:25 | <@RchrdB> | if I patch python2.4 to do the same thing then I should be happy everywhere too |
| 21:25 | | * McMartin nods |
| 21:25 | <@RchrdB> | since Gestalt *is* known to return good results for 10.9 and prior... |
| 21:26 | <&McMartin> | Exactly |
| 21:26 | <&McMartin> | (When we hit this here we checked to see if NSProcessInfo responds to the relevant selector and then use that if it's there) |
| 21:26 | <&McMartin> | (And if not we fall back to Gestalt) |
| 21:26 | <&McMartin> | (More finicky, but might save us a file access? I haven't tried stracing it, and it's not my code) |
| 21:27 | <@RchrdB> | I expect that it's probably much more convenient if you're in ObjC to use NSProcessInfo? |
| 21:28 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, this was an ObjC library to begin with. |
| 21:31 | < kourbou> | Also going to ask the ultimate question: when writing a function do you jump a line for the curly braces "{" after the function name or not? |
| 21:33 | <&McMartin> | Depends on the language I'm using. |
| 21:33 | <&McMartin> | I don't in C or C++. I do in Java and C#. |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | RchrdB: SystemVersion.plist confirmed correct on 10.9 |
| 21:35 | <@RchrdB> | McMartin: thank you! <3 |
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| 22:00 | <@RchrdB> | Heh. So "gcc" on OS X is really a wrapper around clang now, right? |
| 22:01 | <@RchrdB> | Python 2.4.6 emits a LOT of warnings. :) |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | It is indeed |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | As always, no two compilers agree on what is and is not a warning |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | We're tri-platform here so there are three compilers in use here |
| 22:02 | <&McMartin> | Only gcc considers "unused parameter" a warning by default - which it totally should not... |
| 22:02 | <&McMartin> | ... and only gcc considers "variable defined but not used" a warning by default - which is a damning indictment of everyone else |
| 22:02 | <@RchrdB> | MOTHERFUCKER HOORAY |
| 22:02 | <@RchrdB> | PIL built. |
| 22:03 | <@RchrdB> | Today, PIL. Tomorrow, the world^H^H^H^H^Happlication! |
| 22:03 | <&McMartin> | Heh. |
| 22:03 | <&McMartin> | Grats |
| 22:03 | <@RchrdB> | Thanks. |
| 22:04 | <@RchrdB> | (IDK if you're ever interacted with PIL, but it's famous for having an extremely-flaky custom setup.py) |
| 22:04 | <&McMartin> | (I've not) |
| 22:04 | <@RchrdB> | (which in this case was, surprisingly, not the source of the problem ;_;) |
| 22:05 | <@RchrdB> | this pull request for buildout.python is going to be really embarrassing because I'm going to have to explain to somebody why... |
| 22:05 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 22:10 | <@RchrdB> | fuck |
| 22:10 | <@RchrdB> | Our app uses Varnish. Varnish wants to use pkg-config to pick up libpcre. |
| 22:11 | <@RchrdB> | I was really hoping I'd be able to do this WITHOUT installing fucking macports or brew or ANYTHING from that general factory of woe. |
| 22:13 | <@[R]> | PATH attack pkg-config? |
| 22:13 | <@RchrdB> | [R]: ? |
| 22:13 | <@Shiz> | RchrdB: oh god PIL |
| 22:13 | <@Shiz> | it's the worst |
| 22:14 | <@Shiz> | RchrdB: also brew is fairly decent imo |
| 22:14 | | * RchrdB high-fives Shiz. |
| 22:14 | <@RchrdB> | It might... be easiest... to just take Varnish out for now... |
| 22:15 | <@RchrdB> | Shiz: fair, but the situation I have now is that this build has to work on the Macs of a variety of colleagues who already have mixed semi-broken Macports/Brew/the other one whose name I've forgotten/I'm sure there's a fourth installations. |
| 22:15 | <@RchrdB> | Asking anyone to install pkg-config and libpcre from Brew will cause at least one die-hard MacPorts user to come disembowel me. |
| 22:15 | <@[R]> | RchrdB: Basically you write a script that emulates the output for pkg-config that'll be correct for what your libprce actually has, then adjust the PATH so your script is run instead of pkg-config. |
| 22:16 | <@RchrdB> | Does OS X come with libpcre? |
| 22:16 | <@Shiz> | RchrdB: fink |
| 22:16 | <@Shiz> | ;p |
| 22:16 | <@Shiz> | i think it does |
| 22:16 | <@RchrdB> | huh yeah it does |
| 22:16 | <@RchrdB> | heh |
| 22:16 | <@RchrdB> | /usr/lib/pkgconfig/libpcre.pc exists. There just isn't any pkg-config. :D |
| 22:17 | <@RchrdB> | Shiz: that's the one. |
| 22:17 | <@RchrdB> | [R]: that's sneaky and I might actually do it, albeit later. >_> |
| 22:18 | <@RchrdB> | Thanks. |
| 22:18 | <@Shiz> | of course you can also just ship your libraries with your .app |
| 22:18 | <@Shiz> | like everyone does |
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| 22:31 | <@RchrdB> | Not the use case here. I'm not shipping a .app file to end-users. This is a web application based on Plone |
| 22:32 | <@RchrdB> | so I'm actually shipping a repo from which the app can be built on... Fedora (my laptop), CentOS (production servers, and my Vagrant machines) and OS X (the rest of the programmers here who all have an irrational hatred of Vagrant) |
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| 22:52 | <@RchrdB> | Pull request created. <3 https://github.com/collective/buildout.python/pull/43 |
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| 22:53 | < kourbou> | Okay I got AndChat. Crossing my fingers. |
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| 23:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | kourbou|sleeping: ? |
| 23:32 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
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| --- Log closed Thu Mar 12 00:00:19 2015 |