| --- Log opened Sun Jan 25 00:00:42 2015 |
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| 00:54 | <@celticminstrel> | McMartin: You can wrangle it so that you get an exception in C++, too - if you dynamic_cast to a pointer, you get null on failure, while if you dynamic_cast to a reference, you get an exception on failure. |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | Oho, OK then. |
| 00:55 | <@celticminstrel> | Actually, I vaguely recall Go doing it in a nice way. I think it was similar to Java but didn't require an explicit cast. |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | "Type assertions". It's totally an explicit cast. |
| 00:55 | <@celticminstrel> | Hm, okay. |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | It's just phrased foo.(type) instead of (type)foo. |
| 01:01 | < JBeshir> | It's only valid on interfaces. |
| 01:02 | < JBeshir> | Go has type assertions, which look like that, for saying "get me type out of the interface", and it has a "v, ok" form for doing it and getting a bool saying whether it was in fact that type rather than a panic if it wasn't. |
| 01:02 | < JBeshir> | And also has conversions, which convert types to other types, mostly used for numeric stuff and []byte <-> string, which looks like int(bluh) |
| 01:03 | < JBeshir> | Whereas C uses the same syntax for both, I think. |
| 01:03 | <&McMartin> | It does, but C++ distinguishes the former (dynamic_cast<>()) from the latter (c syntax, or, alternately, static_cast<> on primitive types), and I believe the latter are also called "coercions" in C and C++. |
| 01:04 | < JBeshir> | I thought C++ distinguished, yeah. |
| 01:04 | <@celticminstrel> | I think C-style casts can be used for both dynamic and static casts. |
| 01:04 | <@celticminstrel> | static_cast does perform coercions, I think. |
| 01:04 | <@celticminstrel> | reinterpret_cast does not. |
| 01:04 | < JBeshir> | I just wasn't sure enough. It's been a long time since I messed with C++ and my use was pretty limited. |
| 01:04 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 01:05 | <&McMartin> | This is a corner of C++ that you explicitly aren't supposed to use anyway, so even though I use C++ professionally I'm rusty on this part. |
| 01:05 | <&McMartin> | reinterpret_cast<> is like deliberately using the wrong field of a union. |
| 01:05 | <@celticminstrel> | I think so, yes. |
| 01:06 | <&McMartin> | Also, in a weird corner of the C++ "must be like C wherever feasible" design space, it turns out you can't dynamic_cast<> any class with no virtual methods. |
| 01:06 | <&McMartin> | Because a class with no virtual methods is a C struct in all ways including memory layout, and as such there is no room for type IDs. |
| 01:06 | <@celticminstrel> | I'm not sure why you'd want to? |
| 01:07 | <&McMartin> | Uniform reference? Not having to care precisely what you were passed? |
| 01:08 | <@celticminstrel> | You need dynamic_cast for that? |
| 01:08 | <&McMartin> | There are ways to do inheritance in C with nothing but C casts and careful structure layout - those still work in C++. |
| 01:08 | <&McMartin> | They do not work once C++ inheritance comes into play because C++ inheritance Doesn't Work Like That |
| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | In particular, in the presence of multiple inheritance you are no longer guaranteed that the same object statically cast to a parent type is the same bit pattern as it was going in. |
| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | Static casts of pointers in C are no-ops in the binary. |
| 01:09 | <@celticminstrel> | Casting to a base cast might modify the pointer. |
| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | Yep. |
| 01:10 | <&McMartin> | A hypothetical C++ with only single inheritance doesn't have that restriction; it's trivial to retain the property that upcasts don't modify the pointer in those cases. |
| 01:10 | <@celticminstrel> | I think the pointer generally is modified only if it's not the first base class, or something like that. |
| 01:10 | <&McMartin> | Yep. |
| 01:11 | <&McMartin> | So, anyway, if you had a class with only fields, and a subclass that added fields, and there were no methods for it, you couldn't use dynamic_cast<> to get the second from the first. |
| 01:12 | <&McMartin> | "You should have been using composition", I hear you say, and you're right - inheritance is awful and I don't think it's a coincidence the latest generation of languages is moving away from it. |
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| 04:10 | < ASCII> | Is there a python wrangler in the house? |
| 04:11 | <@celticminstrel> | I know python, though others probably know it better. |
| 04:12 | < froztbyte> | ASCII: what's up? |
| 04:15 | < ASCII> | I am several levels deep in confusion, using an unfamiliar file import script in unfamiliar software, with a badly understood file format. I'm getting an error with certain files. |
| 04:15 | < ASCII> | http://i.snag.gy/wMRPn.jpg is the exact error. |
| 04:15 | < froztbyte> | okay |
| 04:15 | < froztbyte> | how much of that message do you understand? |
| 04:15 | < froztbyte> | (as in, where do I start?) |
| 04:16 | < ASCII> | From what I gather, the padding between the files that work and the ones that don't are different, and the importet only knows one version. |
| 04:16 | < ASCII> | But I might be misinterpreting it entirely. |
| 04:18 | < froztbyte> | so if you look at https://docs.python.org/2/library/struct.html |
| 04:18 | < froztbyte> | .unpack will give you a tuple result |
| 04:18 | < froztbyte> | and then it tries to pick the first element of that tuple |
| 04:19 | < froztbyte> | the f is presumably some filehandle, and it's trying to read 4 bytes and parse it all according to whatever the hell 'l' is (long or something, I guess) |
| 04:19 | < ASCII> | Right. |
| 04:19 | < froztbyte> | what I reckon is happening is that you're not ending up actually getting 4 bytes (for whatever reason) |
| 04:20 | < froztbyte> | I vaguely know that there are File Oddities on windows |
| 04:20 | < froztbyte> | (in python) |
| 04:20 | < froztbyte> | but I don't know them well enough to tell you where to look, unfortunately |
| 04:21 | < froztbyte> | if you can edit that module (I'm guessing you can?), you can perhaps disjoin that read from the struct, then print out a repr or something of it |
| 04:22 | < ASCII> | I have the py files, so I can do whatever |
| 04:24 | < ASCII> | But as mentioned, I know practically nothing about python, or blender for that matter. |
| 04:24 | < froztbyte> | right |
| 04:24 | < froztbyte> | well, the traceback tells you what the calling filepath is |
| 04:24 | < ASCII> | Right. |
| 04:24 | < froztbyte> | so try to match up against the file that it is loading, try to poke at it a bit in a python repl |
| 04:25 | < froztbyte> | it's fairly easy to get started |
| 04:25 | < froztbyte> | f = open('/path/to/file', 'r') |
| 04:25 | < froztbyte> | type(f.read(4)) |
| 04:25 | < froztbyte> | etc |
| 04:25 | < froztbyte> | (f.seek(0) will reset you to beginning) |
| 04:28 | < ASCII> | Hm. |
| 04:35 | < ASCII> | Can you suggest a suitable interpreter to experiment with? |
| 04:36 | < ASCII> | I'd rather not look at blender any more than I need to |
| 04:36 | < froztbyte> | python idle is the only thing I know of on windows |
| 04:53 | < ASCII> | Hm. No progress, yet, but at least I'm on a bit of a better footing when I track down the guy who wrote this... |
| 04:53 | < ASCII> | Thanks for the help! |
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| 16:59 | | * Julius finishes reinstalling Win7 for the umpteenth time. |
| 16:59 | | * Julius neuters the load-bearing USB not to launch windows setup, EVER. |
| 17:27 | < simon_> | ugh. I just keep a Windows 7 in a VirtualBox. whenever it screws up, I copy in the version from when it was just installed. |
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| 20:33 | < Julius> | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6163683/cycles-in-family-tree-software <- LOL. |
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| 22:35 | < simon_> | quiz: does anyone know what the Python code 'False == False in [False]' does, and why? |
| 22:35 | < simon_> | s/does/results in/ |
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| 22:39 | <@thalass> | simon: True |
| 22:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Shouldn't it return false? |
| 22:43 | <@celticminstrel> | Or wait, I don't actually know which of == and in has higher precedence. |
| 22:43 | <@celticminstrel> | But no, it doesn't actually matter. |
| 22:43 | < simon_> | celticminstrel, it's a trick question. |
| 22:43 | | * thalass shrugs |
| 22:44 | < simon_> | celticminstrel, it looks like it's a precedence question, but it wouldn't make sense either way. |
| 22:45 | < simon_> | '(False == False) in [False]' becomes 'True in [False]' which is False, not True. and 'False == (False in [False])' becomes 'False == True', which is also False. |
| 22:45 | <@celticminstrel> | So why does it return true? |
| 22:45 | < simon_> | Python's logical operators can be chained, sort of like 1 < 2 < 3. so what I wrote is, for some forsaken reason, syntax sugar for 'False == False and False in [False]' |
| 22:46 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah... that's... |
| 22:46 | < simon_> | easy to guess, right! ;) |
| 22:46 | < simon_> | my friend had to inspect python bytecode to figure it out. |
| 22:47 | <@thalass> | heh |
| 22:47 | < simon_> | I don't think it's that common of an idiom in Python. |
| 22:47 | <@celticminstrel> | I'd say it'd make more sense if in was excluded from chaining. |
| 22:48 | <@celticminstrel> | Though, chaining in with in might be useful. |
| 22:48 | <@celticminstrel> | (Not sure.) |
| 22:49 | < simon_> | chaining much more than '<' isn't very useful for me, since it's so different from what any other language would do. |
| 22:50 | <@celticminstrel> | The following pairs make sense in chaining: (<,<=), (<,<), (>,>=), (>,>), (==,==) |
| 22:50 | <@celticminstrel> | It might be different from other programming languages, but it's more like math. |
| 22:51 | <@celticminstrel> | There might be other pairs that make sense. |
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| --- Log closed Mon Jan 26 00:00:37 2015 |