--- Log opened Fri Nov 01 00:00:17 2013 00:02 <&McMartin> Once you assume that votecounting electronically is trivial, I think you could do a "OK, the official votecounters will now check their work" 00:02 <&McMartin> kind of thing 00:02 <&McMartin> But you need a centralized trusted arbitrator at the end because ultimately there is one: the entity that's supposed to be respecting the result. 00:03 <&McMartin> Whatever communicates that to the entity is the final arbiter. The "best" you can hope for is that it shows its work in ways private citizens can check 00:03 <&McMartin> We may, barely, have just enough power now that this is a reasonable thing to do, but you still have social engineering attack points like restricting the franchise or attempting to render ballots invalid after casting. 00:03 <&McMartin> Making it electronic merely changes which skills you use to do that. 00:03 <&McMartin> Er, will now *show* their work, not check their work 00:06 <&McMartin> Mmm 00:06 <&McMartin> OK, the publishing with unique ID gets tricky because you can get companies blackmailing their workers 00:06 <&McMartin> "Prove to us that you voted for the candidate the bosses want or we fire you" 00:06 <@Reiv> NZ does paper votes, but the system could in theory be done electronically 00:07 <@Reiv> Each vote paper has a unique ID that is stickered-over 00:07 <&McMartin> CA switched to an electronic-prints-paper system largely for accessibility reasons 00:07 <@Reiv> You then use said paper to cast your vote. 00:07 <@Reiv> To recieve said paper, you have to be recorded as having voted at that voting station. 00:07 <@Reiv> The numbers are sequential. 00:08 <&McMartin> That sounds like a good system 00:08 <@Reiv> So you know precisely how many votes *should* be there, because you can count how many papers were handed out 00:08 <@Reiv> (Damaged papers can be returned and replaced, but IIRC there is a Process there too) 00:08 <@Reiv> So they know you voted, and where 00:08 Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon 00:08 <@Reiv> And they know how many votes there should be in the box 00:09 <@Reiv> And they can line up the number of votes to the number of people, and (if needed) that each person only voted in one location 00:09 <@Reiv> But they don't actually know which paper they gave you to vote with. 00:10 <&McMartin> Right 00:11 <@Reiv> So that solves voter privacy, single person multiple voting, and ballot destruction to a reasonable degree of compromise, I feel 00:11 <&McMartin> The part where an "internet voting" scheme tends to fall down is that it's really, really hard to beat that voter register at the voting stating. 00:11 <@Reiv> I mean, unless the vote came back 100% for one candidate, or 0 votes for someone you were meant to vote for 00:12 <@Reiv> But you know that's kind of an edge case and we generally depend on Statistics to solve that one. 00:12 <&McMartin> Right 00:12 VirusJTG_ [VirusJTG@Nightstar-lsl.j5i.46.174.IP] has joined #code 00:12 <&McMartin> One place where that gets messy is if the ballot is gigantic 00:12 <&McMartin> As, say, CA's often is 00:12 * AnnoDomini imagines Russian hackerinos writing viruses that infect USian machines and wait for the election. 00:12 <@Reiv> Yeah, in NZ there are mid-weight restrictions on who goes on the ballot 00:12 <&McMartin> AnnoDomini: Why imagine that when the US's leading manufacturer of voting machines openly stated they were pulling for a specific party to sweep wins 00:12 <@Reiv> It costs Actual Money, and you don't get any campaign funding unless you pass a national threshold of votes 00:13 <&McMartin> Reiv: Yeah, that's not what I mean 00:13 <&McMartin> I mean "When I vote in an election I'm simultaneously voting something like 20 positions, plus about a dozen direct referenda" 00:13 <@AnnoDomini> McMartin: Russians will do it more cheaply! 00:13 <@Reiv> McMartin: My main point is that these restrictions mean that the ballot tends to sit at about twenty-odd parties 00:13 <@Reiv> Oh, I see 00:14 <@Reiv> Yeah, we get two Political votes, and then a couple referenda, maybe. 00:14 <&McMartin> (Elections tend to merge federal, state, and municipal level so that you only need to get people out once a year) 00:14 <@TheWatcher> Ballots here still mess with Myst's head 00:14 <@Reiv> (To get on teh vote they have to get enough petition signatures to begin with, and the threshold is not terribly light) 00:14 <&McMartin> ... speaking of, there's an election next week, albeit a purely-municipal one. I should probably start doing my research for that. 00:14 VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-6i5vf7.sta.comporium.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] 00:14 <@TheWatcher> We vote on one or two political positions, that's it 00:15 <@Reiv> Regional elections are by mail ballot. 00:15 <@Reiv> This is obviously forgeable, but oh well etc 00:15 <@TheWatcher> Referenda? Insanely huge thing for that to ever happen 00:15 <@Reiv> TheWatcher: Haha yes, we vote on two; my Resident Californian still finds that weird 00:15 <&McMartin> Several US states are vote-by-mail for *everything* 00:15 <@Reiv> Yeah, referenda here are "There might be two on a paper for a given year, and that's kind of disconcerting" 00:16 <&McMartin> (And most states will let you register to vote by mail regardless) 00:16 <@Reiv> ... uh guys this isn't FLEET~ 00:17 <&McMartin> This is about evoting! 00:17 <&McMartin> It's totally code 00:17 <&McMartin> And algorithms 00:17 <@AnnoDomini> And hax. 00:17 <&McMartin> Speaking of e-voting, it turns out that my favored voting schema ends up being a slight variant on RateMyKitten.com -_- 00:18 <@TheWatcher> Reiv: we've had 11 referenda since 1973~ 00:18 <&McMartin> (Essentially, rate all candidates from 1-10. Note: *rate*, not *rank*. Whatever ratings you give get stretched out to cover the full range before being scored.) 00:19 himi [fow035@Nightstar-q9amk4.ffp.csiro.au] has joined #code 00:19 mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ 00:21 <@Reiv> McMartin: Is there a point to anything but '10' and '1', then? 00:22 <&McMartin> Reiv: That depends~ 00:22 <&McMartin> I think non-strategic voting is a form of throwing away your vote, so my inclination is both to say "no" and also "this is why I usually militate for approval voting" 00:22 <&McMartin> But it seems like people get cranky when they can't have a second-place choice. 00:23 <&McMartin> And, of course, for *non* elections like, oh, judging the IFcomp, or a competition full of kitten photos, a finer degree of judgement is useful. 00:24 <&McMartin> (I'm in the US, and the approval voting algorithm happens to also mesh very well with the collection of historical accidents that is our election system, so this is another reason I favor it specifically) 00:25 <&McMartin> (But the scaled-kitten-rating system -- I think the formal name is "normalized grading" -- is my preferred algorithm for basically *all* forms of mass selection.) 00:25 <@Reiv> hn 00:25 <@Reiv> I guess it has a point 00:26 <@Reiv> It's hard, though. 00:26 <&McMartin> Everything's Easier Than Condorcet~ 00:26 <@Reiv> But then, STV is /awful/ and a plague apon the nations that use it, so best to avoid that too. 00:26 <&McMartin> STV? 00:26 <@Reiv> (Single Transferrable Vote; the australians use it. It's the ranked voting. Augh, augh, augh.) 00:27 <&McMartin> (Oh. I know that system as "instant runoff") 00:27 <@Reiv> ("There are a dozen parties on the list so you have to choose them all, ranked 1 to 12.") 00:27 <&McMartin> And yeah, runoff-based systems tend to break horribly in the presence of three strong and nearly equally powerful parties and an even slightly cynical electorate 00:27 <&McMartin> It's fine if you have two major parties and a bunch of minor ones 00:28 <&McMartin> (Since people will tend to vote even the Kitten Skullfucker Party over the Sole Credible Rival in them) 00:29 <&McMartin> STV breaks the everloving *shit* out of the US electoral college, so I have no worries about that ever coming to pass here~ 00:29 <@Reiv> Yeah 00:29 <@Reiv> They want to change our system ;_; 00:29 <@Reiv> It is a silly idea. 00:30 <&McMartin> OTOH, the US electoral college is also the convenient demonstration of the various paradoxes that occur with runoff systems. 00:30 <@Reiv> Of course, this is simple voter manipulation 00:30 <&McMartin> There's a punchy name for tha ttoo and I forget what it is. 00:30 <@Reiv> We've had demands ever since we went to MMP to change it, because people are Rose Tinted Memories for FTP 00:31 <@Reiv> So the government held a referendum to change the voting system! It said yes! 00:31 <&McMartin> But it didn't say what to? 00:31 <@Reiv> ... So now we're changing how we tick the boxes. Not the MMP. :P 00:31 <&McMartin> I'm guessing FTP is first past the post, but MMP is actually an acronym I can't guess at. Proportional? 00:32 <@Reiv> Mixed Member Proportional 00:32 <@Reiv> In our case, 60 regional seats that work like senate seats or whatever ("I represent the East Ward of Hamilton") 00:33 <@Reiv> And then 60 more that come from our second, 'party vote' - whereapon the dude who gets 40% of the party votes gets 40% of the 60 seats, with some methodical bits for edge case parties and seat rounding 00:33 <@Reiv> They then all sit down in the same level of government. 00:33 * McMartin nods 00:34 <&McMartin> I'm not sure if that's so much a method of voting as it is a method of representation 00:34 <@Reiv> And therein lies the joke. 00:35 <@Reiv> "We hate MMP!" "Vote for us and we'll hold a referundum on our method of choosing governments!" "YES PLZ" "OK, we'll change the voting bit." "wait what" 00:41 <&ToxicFrog> God, I wish we had MMP. 00:42 <&ToxicFrog> FPTP sucks so relentlessly and pervasively I'm not sure why anyone would have rosy memories of it 00:42 <&ToxicFrog> Unless they are politicians who owe their seats to gerrymandering, perhaps~ 00:42 <&McMartin> ToxicFrog: Well, come to think of it, MMP would make the US Senate *even worse* 00:43 <&McMartin> Actually, does anyone mind a change of subject? I have a design I want to bounce off the channel 00:43 Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel 00:44 <&McMartin> I'm getting into the weeds on Monocle's object model, and I'm trying to get it minimal enough to do the job it needs to without unduly constraining client code. 00:45 VirusJTG__ [VirusJTG@Nightstar-6i5vf7.sta.comporium.net] has joined #code 00:46 <&McMartin> Basically, I've got a sensible resource system at this point, so I can just handwave things like "sprite" and have that mean "and all the texture collation and frame information &c" 00:46 <&McMartin> My idea for how a frame goes is that you have a high-level event loop that spews events at the client, and which it consumes and reacts to 00:47 You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] 00:47 <&McMartin> There is a notion of game objects, but Monocle only knows super-basic things about them; location, velocity, hitbox, and which sprite to draw it with absent a user override. 00:48 VirusJTG_ [VirusJTG@Nightstar-lsl.j5i.46.174.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] 00:50 <&ToxicFrog> McMartin: so, just quickly finishing up that thread - the reason MMP is attractive here is that we have like a 6 party system, but most of those get 0-2 seats despite routinely getting 5-10% of the vote, and thus have effectively no say in government. 00:51 You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] 00:52 <&McMartin> A frame's worth of events is: Pre-input, any input events that happened this frame (including stuff like "object X got clicked on", but most input events are global), pre-physics (the 'usual' update step), any collision or object-out-of-bounds events the basic kinematics generate, and then the rendering steps 00:52 <@AnnoDomini> ToxicFrog: How large is your parliament? 00:52 <&ToxicFrog> Client - this is client-server? I thought Monocle was singleplyaer. 00:52 Kindamoody[zZz] [Kindamoody@Nightstar-05577424.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] 00:52 <@Reiv> (ToxicFrog: Which is precisely why we shifted to it) 00:52 <&McMartin> "Client" here means "the people linking against monocle" 00:52 <&ToxicFrog> Aah. 00:53 <&ToxicFrog> AnnoDomini: 308 seats. 00:53 <&McMartin> (Right, see, MMP would mean that the Tea Party would be uneradicable as an explicitly designed feature of the system) 00:53 <&McMartin> I'm thinking game objects get classified into kinds, and a kind specifies a default sprite, and also specifies which of those events it overrides 00:53 Kindamoody[zZz] [Kindamoody@Nightstar-05577424.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #code 00:53 mode/#code [+o Kindamoody[zZz]] by ChanServ 00:53 <@AnnoDomini> ToxicFrog: Hmm, way past Dunbar, not good. 00:53 <&ToxicFrog> (yeah, the closest thing we have to the Tea Party that actually gets >1% of the vote is probably the Partie Quebecois, and they aren't anywhere near as bad) 00:53 <&McMartin> And then you also have a kind-to-kind relation for what collisions are interesting that respects inheritance 00:54 <&ToxicFrog> (whereas it's the left-wing parties like the Green Party and the NDP that get squeezed out) 00:54 <&ToxicFrog> (er, Bloc Quebecois rather) 00:56 <&McMartin> I've basically got two aspects of this design that seem like they might be unduly restrictive 00:56 <&McMartin> First, I'm imagining kinds to have only single inheritance, and it's not clear if that's restrictive at all or even if it simplifies the design 00:57 <&McMartin> Second, you'll notice there's no concept equivalent to game maker's "rooms" here 00:58 <&McMartin> This is in part because the room abstraction kept getting in my grill when I tried to implement things like pause and status menus 00:59 <&McMartin> Is there any reason you can think of that I can't devolve that stuff wholly to the client? I could optimize it by allowing you to snapshot object sets and build active sets out of those. 00:59 <&McMartin> (This would also mean that you wouldn't need one copy of the player object per level; it could be at some persistent level the client doesn't dispose of) 01:01 <&McMartin> I think it makes sense to have the state machine for "what does input mean here" be part of the client engine, and it seems like I get that for "free" simplly by making input be a global event. 01:03 <@Reiv> That seems broadly reasonable 01:03 <&McMartin> A C++ application could have a class for interpreting that stuff - a GameMode class or something, and you could shift between them according to a state machine 01:03 <&McMartin> (Rendering is, itself, about three steps) 01:03 <&McMartin> One major feature GM has that this lacks is automatic support for "views" 01:04 <&McMartin> I think I'm holding off on that until I shift to the SDL2 backend, which has automatic whole-window rotozoom 01:05 <&McMartin> My first test for all of this is basically going to be a simulation of a carnival boardwalk shooting gallery, but I'm up for suggestions for super-simple games to implement as demos 01:05 <@Reiv> Views? 01:06 <@Reiv> A simple test: A card game. 01:06 <@Reiv> Hell, implement War! if you must. >_> 01:06 <&McMartin> OK, so, it also should actually test things like the basic physics engine and collision detection~ 01:06 <&McMartin> Views: did you play Iji? 01:07 <@AnnoDomini> Reiv: Air War! :P 01:07 <@Reiv> Physics engine and collision detection: Breakout. 01:07 <@Reiv> I love breakout. <3 01:07 <@Reiv> AnnoDomini: Is that where you take the deck and throw it at the other guy? 01:08 <&McMartin> I'm leaning towards http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibFejsipSC8 right now 01:08 <&McMartin> Breakout has a set of controls I'm trying to avoid directly implementing. ;-) 01:09 <@Reiv> ... mouse? 01:10 <&McMartin> Pretty much 01:10 <@Reiv> Aw. 01:10 <@Reiv> But mouse is <3 01:10 <&McMartin> Though also, Breakout has some hidden Difficult Design Problems. 01:10 <&McMartin> Oh, mouse *in general* has to be in 01:11 <@AnnoDomini> Reiv: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Air_War 01:11 <@Reiv> McMartin: Tell me about these problems then 01:11 <&McMartin> But if the goal is "so, you're writing a 2D game, here's some code to steal to get started", Breakout Isn't That. 01:11 <&McMartin> Because "the player character is at the mouse's X position" is only your control scheme if you're playing breakout. 01:12 <&McMartin> The problem with writing Breakout is that getting a good playable bounce physics is really hard. 01:12 < Syka_> you use mouse for breakout? 01:12 <&McMartin> It isn't actually "reflect as off a mirror" 01:12 < Syka_> huh 01:12 <&McMartin> Syka_: Yeah, since PCs don't have dials, which is the True Control Scheme. 01:13 < Syka_> i use the keyboard, now i feel like some variety of freak The arguments that apply to mouse supremacy for FPSen also apply to breakout, as it happens~ 01:14 <@Reiv> Yeah, that's fair 01:14 <@Reiv> Oh well, it was an idea~ 01:14 <@Reiv> Hey 01:14 <@Reiv> Throw together Sable 2D 01:14 <@Reiv> Only with an end 01:14 <@Reiv> ... ahaha, I remember hearing about this one: 01:14 <&McMartin> That's two phases down~ 01:14 <@Reiv> A shooter where enemies spawn at the rate you kill the old ones. 01:15 <&McMartin> I want something with a "screen" instead of a "map" this time, so any shmup will be more like Galaga. 01:15 <@Reiv> They also aggressively shoot back. 01:15 <&McMartin> I mean, I could port Target Acquired to Monocle. That would actually probably even be worthwhile. 01:15 * Reiv thinks 01:15 <@Reiv> That could work well. 01:15 <&McMartin> It's kind of hilarous how a piece of high school juvenilia keeps getting reimplemented~ 01:16 <@Reiv> Because it's a good thing to reimplement? 01:16 <&McMartin> Not really. It's a bad game on several grounds 01:16 <&McMartin> But it's good at Hitting The Bases 01:17 <&McMartin> Maybe this time it can do a mix of inertial and non-inertial enemies 01:17 <&McMartin> Oh hey, it's also not online anymore 01:20 <&McMartin> Anyway, views. Did you play Iji? Or, I guess, Hotline Miami or Gunpoint 01:21 <&McMartin> Basically, Game Maker has a concept of "Rooms", but a "Room" is really closer to an "entire level", not "a screen" 01:22 <&McMartin> A view is a subset of the room that is what is drawn to the screen. For a scrolling game like Iji, it follows the character around. For a flipscrolling game like Hero Core or Dapper Delver, it stays static and jumps a screen at a time as needed. 01:22 <@Reiv> Hotline Miami and Gunpoint, yes 01:23 <@Reiv> Oh, you mean "The bit that is on screen but not actually the entire level"? 01:23 <&McMartin> Yeah 01:23 VirusJTG__ [VirusJTG@Nightstar-6i5vf7.sta.comporium.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Program Shutting down] 01:23 <@Reiv> Because I have also played Volgarr The Viking, Duke Nukem, and Commander Keen~ 01:24 <&McMartin> Yes, but those were not Actually Written In Game Maker. 01:24 <&McMartin> Views also include "the window is 1920x1080, but the viewport is 640x480, zoom and pillarbox that, would you" 01:25 <&McMartin> Which SDL2 has as a primitive, so I'm holding off on this until I do the SDL2 conversion 01:25 <&McMartin> And that's a prerequisite for sensible scrolling maps, so~ 01:26 <&McMartin> I haven't actually decided yet whether I want tilemaps to be part of the Monocle engine or something that the client is responsible for doing. 01:26 <&McMartin> I'm leaning towards the latter because there are so many ways one can do it. 01:34 <@Reiv> So non-scrolling maps, OK 01:34 <@Reiv> And a physics engine. 01:35 <@Reiv> Donkey kong~ 02:14 <&McMartin> Oof. My code turns out to not be 32-bit clean 02:33 Thalass is now known as Thalass|codemonkey 02:41 <&ToxicFrog> Awkward. 02:42 <@AnnoDomini> You monster. 02:42 Panzer [Panzer@Nightstar-o7b.u5m.89.109.IP] has joined #code 02:43 < Syka_> I... hm. 02:43 < Syka_> my bank noticed I hadnt used an account for six months, that had nothing in it 02:43 < Syka_> so they closed it for me 02:43 <@AnnoDomini> Sounds bankish. 02:44 < Syka_> ...not sure if I should be happy that now I don't have to do it myself, or slightly scared that some code somewhere has a timer and a shutDownAccount() function 02:46 <&McMartin> It's probably written in COBOL! 02:47 < Syka_> McMartin: i know for a fact it is 02:47 < Syka_> Commonwealth Bank is a Tier 1 bank 02:48 < Syka_> iirc all of the tier 1s use cobol extensively :( 02:48 <@AnnoDomini> Did they bill you the operation fee? 02:48 < Syka_> ...also, some store is selling DAS Model S' 02:49 < Syka_> with a free wireless KB worth $55 02:49 < Syka_> as someone In Business, I now want to know how fucking large their margins are to do that 02:49 < Syka_> or, how desperate they are to clear DAS stock 02:49 Vornicus [vorn@Nightstar-sn7kve.sd.cox.net] has joined #code 02:49 mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ 02:50 < Syka_> since slightly less money than starting is better than no money and stock nobody wants 02:50 <&McMartin> When you start it up does it say DAS BOOT 02:52 < Syka_> ...it's a keyboard 02:52 < Syka_> ...so if it boots up 02:52 < Syka_> it must be a NSA Board 02:53 <@AnnoDomini> McMartin: Once, I managed to hit a plane with the anti-ship cannon. Once. 02:53 < Syka_> embedded Big Brother Functionality, for typing in the CloudÂ®! 02:54 <@Reiv> ... Oooh. A Nexus 5, eh? 02:54 <@Reiv> That could very well compete with my phonemoneys, which has previously gone exclusively toward the Galaxy S. 02:55 <&McMartin> Also, wait 02:55 <&McMartin> Reiv, why have you not played Iji 02:55 <@Reiv> McMartin: I played it briefly, and didn't enjoy it. 02:55 <@Reiv> I was also expecting your analogy to be, uh, more detailed~ 02:56 <&McMartin> It's more "'Rooms' aren't." 02:56 <&McMartin> There are tricks you're supposed to be able to do with views that would make it more detailed, but none of them frickin' work 02:56 <&McMartin> So, "yeah, views are the thing those games use to do autoscrolling" 02:57 < Syka_> the n5 looks interesting 02:57 < Syka_> they didnt release 4.4 for the gnex (my phone) 02:57 < Syka_> :( 02:57 <&McMartin> (It's *supposed* to let you do picture-in-picture like the Descent missile cam, but that doesn't work) 02:58 <@Reiv> (Because of Glitching, or?) 02:58 <@Reiv> Syka: Yeah, it's why Nexus tempts me so 02:58 < Syka_> min 2-3 week shipping delay now 02:58 <&McMartin> (Objects not appearing where they should, major performance penalties, occasionally Just A Black Rectangle That Does Nothing, etc) 02:58 < Syka_> fucking hell google 02:58 < Syka_> learn to fucking stock 02:58 <@Reiv> Samsung is awful at maintaining software updates; this is doublebad when they're the biggest smartphone maker for android. 02:58 Harlow [Harlow@Nightstar-2dbe3d64.il.comcast.net] has joined #code 02:59 < Harlow> any advice on when to use a Virtual bool over a regular bool? 02:59 <@Reiv> A whatnow? 02:59 ktemkin[work] is now known as ktemkin[afk] 02:59 <&McMartin> Can you quote the entire line you're usin ghere? 03:00 < Syka_> Reiv: they also add such an ugly shell on it 03:00 < Syka_> ughhhh dealing with galaxy or htcs makes me sad 03:00 < Harlow> C++, bool Button::checkPosition(int x,int y) 03:00 <@Reiv> I don't mind the shell. The Nexus approach is hardly flawless. 03:01 < Harlow> VS. virtual bool Button::checkPosition(int x,int y) 03:01 <@Reiv> I mind a lot more that no-one sodding upgrades the stuff. 03:01 < Syka_> everything is in a shitty place and looks "omg so inspired by nature" or "inspired by carbon fibre" im htcs case 03:01 < Syka_> Reiv: samsung have been slightly less shit recently 03:01 < Syka_> i think they have 4.2 on the SII now? 03:03 <@Reiv> Serious? 03:03 <@Reiv> Man. 03:03 <&McMartin> Harlow: OK, so that "virtual" modifies checkPosition, not bool 03:03 <@Reiv> I have the SI so I'm still on 2.33 >_> 03:03 < Harlow> oh 03:03 <&McMartin> A virtual method is one that's overridable by subclasses. 03:03 <&McMartin> It looks like you're studying C++. Have you gotten to the bits about inheritance yet? 03:04 < Harlow> I haven't exclusively covered inheritance yet. 03:04 < Syka_> Reiv: cyanogenmod 03:04 < Syka_> Reiv: i believe there is 4.1 for SI 03:07 < Syka_> supports cm 10.2 03:07 < Syka_> which is... android 4.3 03:07 <@Reiv> Yeah, but I was avoiding rooting it 03:07 <@Reiv> It's getting shaky enough as it is :p 03:07 < Syka_> 10.2 is still nightly 03:07 < Syka_> but 10.1 is stable 03:07 <&McMartin> Harlow: OK. "Virtual" is intimately tied up with the notion of inheritance, so for now, there's no difference. 03:07 < Syka_> heh 03:08 < Syka_> well, it's a complete wipe 03:08 < Syka_> so stability depends on your hardware~ 03:08 <&McMartin> The two rules you need now are "if you're subclassing some other class, copy the virtual-ness of the method you're replacing", and "if *any other* method is virtual, the destructor should be virtual." 03:08 <&McMartin> The rest will come when you get to inheritance. 03:17 <&McMartin> Oh hey wait, this demo code I'm writing can play any MOD-like file. 03:17 * McMartin swaps that out for the Crusader No Remorse soundtrack for himself. 03:21 < Syka_> http://3v4l.org/XXbtf 03:21 * Syka_ bursts into laughter 03:22 <~Vornicus> syka_: !? 03:23 < Syka_> php <3 03:25 <@AnnoDomini> Dafuq. 03:31 <@Alek> wat 03:31 <@Alek> look at the performance tab. 03:32 <@Alek> a 2-line php script uses multiple MiBs? 03:32 < Syka_> Alek: PHP! 03:32 < Syka_> because RAM is cheap! 03:33 <@Alek> and of course it has different output in different versions. 03:33 <@Alek> this is the best argument yet to stay FAR away from php. 03:33 * Thalass|codemonkey reads up 03:33 < Syka_> why has nobody written a php interpreter in node.js 03:34 < Syka_> so that we can funnel all the horrible people to one framework 03:34 < Syka_> note: if there is a php interpreter in node.js, PLEASE DON'T TELL ME 03:34 < Syka_> i would prefer to be just sick, rather than sick and inconsolably miserable 03:35 <@Alek> out of the listed versions, looks like 4.3.1 was the least resource-intensive. 03:35 <@Alek> I hesitate to say most efficient. 03:36 < Thalass|codemonkey> The galaxy nexus is a nexus, so samsung's arsehattery shouldn't interfere with the availability of updates. 03:36 < Syka_> Thalass|codemonkey: yes 03:37 < Syka_> but theres an 18 month limit to google updates 03:37 < Syka_> so theyve axed the gnex, which is 22 months old 03:37 < Syka_> oh well, cyanogenmod will provide 03:38 < Thalass|codemonkey> Oh, i didn't know that. I got sick of waiting for Android 4.1 to come to my GNote, so i put CM on it. Now i'm enjoying 4.3 with only a few horrible glitches - which have just served to teach me to not be so update-happy with nightlies. :P 03:38 < Syka_> haha 03:38 < Syka_> i ran the cm 10.1 nightly gauntlet for months on two devices 03:39 < Syka_> never again :( 03:40 * Alek shudders. 03:40 < Thalass|codemonkey> I just keep myself a few days behind the latest, and check the xda forums for major complaints before updating. 03:40 <@Alek> this is one of the reasons I don't volunteer for more betas. 03:40 <@Alek> although I AM hoping to get into the Steam beta. 03:41 < Syka_> ugh. so goddamn sick. 03:41 < Syka_> maybe i should have today off 03:41 <@Alek> when is the decision, does anyone know? 03:41 < Syka_> Alek: which steam beta 03:41 <@Alek> or did it already happen and I wasn't told? ;_; 03:41 < Syka_> i'm in the steam beta 03:41 <@Alek> steamos+steambox+steamcontroller 03:41 < Syka_> oh 03:41 < Syka_> that's not the steam beta then 03:41 < Syka_> that's the steambox beta 03:41 < Syka_> (there is a "steam beta") 03:41 <@Alek> ... 03:42 <@Alek> what's that? 03:42 < Syka_> steam client beta 03:42 < Syka_> if you used steamonlinux 03:42 <@Alek> oh. that. 03:42 <@Alek> ohh. 03:42 < Syka_> you get to be a full beta person 03:42 < Syka_> which means ~magical crashy client~ 03:42 < Syka_> currently looks pretty shiny tho 03:42 * Alek doesn't regularly run linux. only when there's a huge problem with his machine booting, mainly. 03:43 <@Alek> like when my last main disk failed. :/ 03:43 < Thalass|codemonkey> Damnit now i want to update Planetary Annihilation and blow some beta bots :P 03:43 < Thalass|codemonkey> *blow UP 03:44 < Syka_> i didnt realise you swung the mechanical way 03:44 < Syka_> just remember WD40 is your friend 03:44 < Syka_> but yeah, steam is doing pretty ok on linux right now 03:44 < Thalass|codemonkey> *snerk* 03:45 < Thalass|codemonkey> Yeah it's totally the Year Of The Linux Desktop now. >.> 03:45 < Thalass|codemonkey> (but it works well for me) 03:45 < Syka_> hm, so 03:45 < Syka_> nexus 5, 16GB,$400 AUD 03:45 <@Alek> ... 03:46 <@Alek> 16GB? heresy. 03:46 * AnnoDomini appreciates Word 2010 in comparison with OOO. 03:46 * Alek cuddles his Note3. 03:46 < Syka_> Alek: my gnex is 16GB 03:46 < Syka_> i have no problems with that size :P 03:46 <@Alek> ah, then you're used to it. XD 03:46 <@Alek> have fun. 03:46 < Syka_> the 32GB is $450 03:46 < Syka_> Alek: heh 03:46 < Syka_> i don't use ~any~ space 03:46 <@Alek> I just wish I could get the 64GB version. oh well, at least it supports my microSD cards. 03:46 * Thalass|codemonkey eyes Alek 03:46 < Syka_> lessee, storage 03:46 < Thalass|codemonkey> waaaant Gnote3 03:47 < Syka_> total space, 13gb, 1.57gb free 03:47 < Syka_> hmm 03:47 * Alek got it the day before US release. 03:47 < Thalass|codemonkey> my Gnote is showing its age somewhat. 03:47 < Syka_> oh, most of it is cache 03:47 < Syka_> and updates i havent deleted 03:47 <@Alek> it was supposed to be out on Oct 3. we went to the Tmobile store on the evening of the 2nd, and got one each for my brother and me. 03:47 < Syka_> wow 03:47 < Syka_> the n4 is$300 now 03:48 < Syka_> the 8gb is $250 03:48 <@Alek> o_o 03:48 < Thalass|codemonkey> My phone contract doesn't expire until March, but if i get a pay rise soon i might just buy at Gnote outright. 03:48 < Syka_> "At only 130 g and 8.59 mm thin, itâs the most powerful Nexus phone yet." 03:48 < Syka_> google is doing apple-style non-sequiters again 03:48 * Alek would have his 32GB full if it weren't for the card. music, some music videos, ebooks (ha, those are a pittance), and a handful of apps. a huge handful. 03:48 < Syka_> stop it google 03:48 < Thalass|codemonkey> Though i've read that the Gnote3 has an issue where Samsung are being dicks. Namely: If you buy the phone in one region, you will be charged roaming rates in other regions even if you put a local sim card in. This is unacceptable. 03:49 < Thalass|codemonkey> Yeah Google. Don't Be Evil, remember? 03:49 < Syka_> Thalass|codemonkey: why would you buy *any* phone that isnt unlocked 03:49 < Syka_> seriously 03:49 < Syka_> although 03:49 <@Alek> Thal: Tmobile has no-roaming-charges in most of the world, looks like. so there's that. 03:49 < Thalass|codemonkey> This is separate to unlockedness, iirc. 03:49 < Syka_> in the US, you guys are kinda fucked 03:49 < Syka_> because every 2nd carrier uses a different standard 03:50 < Thalass|codemonkey> I'll have to do more research etc later on. 03:50 < Syka_> Thalass|codemonkey: you mean that the bought outright phones aren't unlocked? 03:50 < Syka_> wat 03:51 <@Alek> well, not really. we have about 4 major networks, hosted by the 4 major carriers, with all the minor ones hitching rides on the major ones' networks. 03:51 < Syka_> well, I guess thats similar here 03:51 < Syka_> at least 03:51 < Syka_> when you're a derp 03:51 <@Alek> then we have a dozen standards that are cherrypicked by the various providers. 03:51 < Syka_> ohhh 03:51 < Syka_> Thalass|codemonkey: you're aussie 03:51 < Syka_> give me a second, i have something you'd like then 03:52 < Thalass|codemonkey> k 03:52 < Syka_> Thalass|codemonkey: are you in a 4G area? 03:53 < Syka_> well, everyone should be soon 03:53 < Syka_> Thalass|codemonkey: http://www.kogan.com/au/buy/samsung-galaxy-note-3-n9005-4g-lte-32gb-black/ 03:53 < Syka_> Thalass|codemonkey:$729, free shipping, unlocked 03:53 * Alek is SO thankful he doesn't live in the great plains proper, the northwest, or the southwest except for cali. those guys are SCREWED when it comes to coverage. 03:53 < Thalass|codemonkey> Bah. I'm in a known black spot, because all the nearby towers are on the wrong side of the hill to my house, or are just visible over the rooftops but i suspect the tin is scrambling the signal enough to make it unreliable. 03:54 Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] 03:54 < Syka_> Telstra won't even sell you a GN3 03:54 < Thalass|codemonkey> oooo shiny. 03:54 < Syka_> it appears 03:54 <@Alek> we have 3 or 4 towers within a mile from here, we can SEE them from our windows easily, but... the first floor has erratic signal. 03:54 < Thalass|codemonkey> Neither do virgin, i just checked. :P 03:54 * Thalass|codemonkey nods. 03:55 < Thalass|codemonkey> And signal boosters are illegal in oz. bah 03:55 < Syka_> Thalass|codemonkey: well, this is unlocked, so 03:55 < Syka_> Thalass|codemonkey: actually, they're not! 03:55 <@Alek> heh 03:55 < Syka_> http://www.kogan.com/au/buy/nextivity-cel-fi-3g-repeater-booster/ 03:55 < Syka_> there is *one* legal one 03:55 < Syka_> and it's $750 :D 03:56 <@Alek> anyone remember those antennas you could slip over your cell phone antenna? or the ones you screwed in place of it, if you could unscrew the old one? 03:56 <@Alek> or for that matter, the antenna films you could attach inside the battery cover? XD 03:56 < Syka_> nope :( 03:56 < Syka_> i remember the little gsm sticker things 03:56 < Syka_> that would flash within range of gsm 03:56 <@Alek> old stuff. when you still had fixed or pull-up cell phone antennas. 03:57 < Syka_> Alek: I am not that old unfortunately :< 03:57 <@Alek> oh, those flashing stickers... first I've heard of those. XD 03:57 <@Alek> Syka... I am. ;_; 03:57 < Thalass|codemonkey> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/27/samsung_galaxy_regionlocking_saga_gets_m urky/ <-- Actually it seems to be an effort to curb grey-market business rather than prevent people taking phones with them on holidays. 03:57 <@Alek> this was in the LATE 90's/early 00s. 03:57 < Syka_> i'm 19, so, I got all the stuff when it was not-shit 03:57 < Thalass|codemonkey> That booster only works with telstra next g, Syka_ 03:57 <@Alek> ;_; 03:57 < Syka_> the nokia 3310 was the oldest mobile phone I had 03:57 < Syka_> Thalass|codemonkey: you mean you're not on telstra? 03:57 < Syka_> owO 03:58 < Thalass|codemonkey> haha 03:58 < Syka_> why would one not be on telstra 03:58 < Syka_> well, up here, it's the only choice 03:58 < Syka_> the other carriers don't put anything up on the tower 03:58 <@Alek> oh hey, I still have a wifi finder keychain dongle. XD which is quite useless now, and was back then actually. 03:58 < Thalass|codemonkey> Within metro areas non-telstra coverage is just as good as telstra. Also: Telstra are jerks in general, pining for the days when they were an actual monopoly rather than a virtual one they are now. 03:58 < Syka_> so city people come up, having signed like a 48 month contract with Optus, with a shiny new iphone 03:59 < Thalass|codemonkey> heh yeah. FIFO people have that problem. 03:59 <@Alek> but more so now, when receivers are WAY more sensitive than that thing. 03:59 < Syka_> then they have to cancel and pay it out because they only get signal in certain parts of town 03:59 < Syka_> Thalass|codemonkey: oh man 03:59 < Syka_> i went to perth 03:59 < Syka_> with my at the time htc desire 03:59 < Syka_> did a speedtest 03:59 < Syka_> got -0.00Mb/s download :'D 03:59 < Thalass|codemonkey> pfff 04:00 < Syka_> phone didnt actually work for three days, then it came good 04:00 < Thalass|codemonkey> odd. 04:00 < Syka_> ...then I bought a HTC Sensation off Telstra 04:00 < Syka_> worst purchase I have ever made :( 04:01 < Syka_> ooh, i found my pictures when i first bought it 04:01 < Syka_> it was during CHOGM 2011 04:01 * Alek had a samsung flip-bar for 4 years. thing had maybe 1 or 2 problems, easily fixed by reboots, over the whole time. not even a battery problem. 04:02 < Syka_> i loved how http://reddrgn.net/tidbits_old/files/pic/9.jpg was the example of mac gaming in the apple store 04:02 <@Alek> in fact, the battery's STILL just as good as it was then. 04:02 <&McMartin> Blargh. 04:03 <@Alek> heeeey, lego star wars. I need to get around to playing my copy some day. 04:03 < Syka_> also this piece of shit! http://reddrgn.net/tidbits_old/files/pic/17.jpg 04:03 <&McMartin> jeroud: No dice on the SDL stuff. Even with the objc stuff it's a tremendous pain to get stuff to build right. 04:03 <@Alek> ok, maybe not QUITE as good, it lasted for at least a week when I got it, but only about 6 days at the end there. XD 04:03 < Syka_> i may have actually seen it completed, i don't remember 04:03 < Thalass|codemonkey> Gods. If i was female i would totally want to have Chainfire's babies. He(?) seems to have written an application to take away the region lock issue. 04:03 < Syka_> but it still looks like some post-modernist bullshit 04:04 <&McMartin> I'm going to need to recruit people post-SDL2 to make a usable .framework that doesn't have horrible absolute path dependencies Freaking Everywhere &c 04:06 <@Alek> heh. not to be a 'muritard, but do you guys celebrate halloween in Oz and N-Zed? 04:06 < Syka_> yes and no 04:06 < Syka_> the same way we celebrate #yolo 04:07 < Syka_> ie. it's the teenagers, everyone older than that is like "ugh american things" 04:07 < Thalass|codemonkey> Oddly enough nobody minds celebrating Octoberfest 04:07 < Syka_> oktoberfest is different though 04:07 < Syka_> ie. it has alcohol 04:07 < Thalass|codemonkey> Or anything else foreign. But we do halloween, because my wife is Canadian. 04:08 < Syka_> Thalass|codemonkey: "alcohol" makes it suitable for "allowed cultural imports" 04:08 < Thalass|codemonkey> haha true 04:08 < Syka_> also, apparently the German Oktoberfest is mainly Bavarians and pissed-up Aussies 04:08 < Syka_> so I guess we're just "exchanging culture" (getting smashed) 04:09 <&McMartin> Exchanging yeast cultures. Applied to malt. And hops. 04:09 <&McMartin> And grains. 04:09 < Syka_> for "mutual trust and understanding" (yelling drinking anthems) 04:09 < Thalass|codemonkey> I've heard that, too. 04:09 < Thalass|codemonkey> Anyway. AFK. Spawnling needs food or something (who knew?) :P 04:09 Thalass|codemonkey is now known as Thalass|afk 04:10 <&McMartin> I will grant an America Fuck Yeah for using a drinking anthem as the tune for the national anthem 04:11 < Syka_> McMartin: which country is this 04:12 <&McMartin> The US. "The Star-Spangled Banner" is set to "To Anacreon in Heaven", a drinking song of the day. 04:12 < Syka_> he 04:12 < Syka_> h 04:13 <&McMartin> That said, given how fucking hard it is to sing 18th-century drunks must have been fucking amazing 04:13 * Syka_ <3 her deploy scripts 04:13 < Syka_> seriously i am really happy with them 04:14 <@AnnoDomini> McMartin: Seems likely given that hundred year-old reaction time test they repeated on modern people recently. 04:21 <@Alek> people today are soft and lazy, yadda yadda 04:22 <@AnnoDomini> Yes. 04:22 <@AnnoDomini> A direct consequence of our standard of living. 04:22 Thalass|afk is now known as Thalass 04:22 * AnnoDomini sleep. 04:23 < Syka_> a direct consequence of being awesome 04:23 <&McMartin> Maybe we're better at beer now. 04:23 < Syka_> we made machines do that quick stuff for us 04:23 <&McMartin> Maybe I should learn CMake 04:29 <@Alek> and don't forget how a ton of drinking songs had at least a hundred verses. 04:30 <&McMartin> To be fair, after awhile you can claim that you sang all hundred verses flawlessly and nobody's sober enough to gainsay you. 04:31 <&McMartin> o/~ Oh, me pa sent me to school / But I found it much too hard / When they asked me "Where does coal come from?" / I said "Me neighbors' yard" o/~ 04:31 <@Alek> and most of the verses were each bawdier than the last. 04:32 <@Alek> like the hedgehog or the wizard's staff from Discworld. 04:33 Harlow [Harlow@Nightstar-2dbe3d64.il.comcast.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: BED] 04:35 Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody 05:11 RichyB [RichyB@Nightstar-c6u.vd5.170.83.IP] has quit [[NS] Quit: Gone.] 05:15 RichyB [RichyB@Nightstar-c6u.vd5.170.83.IP] has joined #code 05:21 Stalker [Z@Nightstar-484uip.cust.comxnet.dk] has joined #code 05:36 Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out 05:55 Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] 06:12 celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-90d86201.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [[NS] Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 06:36 himi [fow035@Nightstar-q9amk4.ffp.csiro.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] 06:50 jerith_ is now known as jerith 06:50 mode/#code [+ao jerith jerith] by ChanServ 07:17 Stalker [Z@Nightstar-484uip.cust.comxnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] 07:24 <&McMartin> Anyway, Windows monocle now works 07:25 <&McMartin> (WHY IS IT EASIER TO PORT FROM LINUX TO WINDOWS THAN MAC) 07:25 < Syka_> because it just werks 07:25 < Syka_> qait 07:25 < Syka_> wait* 07:25 <&McMartin> also, why is mingw finding genuine bugs in the code that stock gcc is not 07:25 <@froztbyte> kuwait? 07:25 <@froztbyte> McMartin: gcc isn't very great software 07:26 <@froztbyte> it's okayish software 07:26 <&McMartin> Yes, but mingw *is* gcc 07:26 <@froztbyte> yes, but 07:26 <@froztbyte> mingw have had to cover a couple more "oh, one more thing" cases 07:26 <&McMartin> I suppose 07:26 <@froztbyte> I remember having the same experience about 6 years ago 07:26 <&McMartin> This was use-before-def though and I thought gcc caught all those as long as you set at least -O1 07:26 <@froztbyte> not even mildly complicated code 07:27 <@froztbyte> bloodshed dev.net + mingw 07:27 <@froztbyte> or whatnot 07:27 <&McMartin> Ah yes, Bloodshed Software 07:27 <@froztbyte> would pick up things my linux box (at the time gedit + gcc) would not 07:27 <@froztbyte> (yes, I was /that green/ a mere 5~6 years ago) 07:30 <&McMartin> dev-c++ was still live software 5-6 years ago, wasn't it? 07:32 <&McMartin> I remember Sable used to have Dev-C++ project files maintained for it 07:33 <&McMartin> But yeah, MSYS really does pretty much just work 07:34 <&McMartin> The only real changes I had to make was to remove a few POSIX-specific compiler flags and rename the .so to .dll 07:34 <&McMartin> ... and then install zip because MSYS doesn't by default 07:34 <&McMartin> When MSYS says "minimal system" it isn't kidding 08:19 < Tarinaky_> http://www.math.ucsd.edu/~crypto/java/ENTROPY/ << Can anyone else get the applet on this page to work? 08:19 < Tarinaky_> Oh hang on, yay. 08:19 < Tarinaky_> Working now. 08:29 AverageJoe [evil1@Nightstar-dfmuir.ph.cox.net] has joined #code 08:29 Reiv [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-95746c1f.kinect.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] 08:30 himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code 08:30 mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ 08:33 <@froztbyte> McMartin: yeah, it was still alive then 08:33 <@froztbyte> McMartin: last while of its lifetime, aiui 08:52 You're now known as TheWatcher 09:05 Thalass is now known as Pirate_chef 09:10 * TheWatcher readsup 09:13 <@TheWatcher> Huzzah for working windows monocle! 09:13 < AverageJoe> | 09:13 < AverageJoe> choose one 09:20 <&McMartin> Incorrect! 09:20 <&McMartin> It turns out Mac is the one made of spiders and abandonment. 09:21 <&McMartin> 00:30 <&McMartin> But yeah, MSYS really does pretty much just work 09:21 <&McMartin> 00:30 <&McMartin> The only real changes I had to make was to remove a few POSIX-specific compiler flags and rename the .so to .dll 09:21 < Tarinaky_> Yeah, every Friday and Monday our AI lecturer's Mac sabotages her lecture by doing weird things. 09:22 < Tarinaky_> Nice Power Point you have there, pity if someone were to activate the Expose view. 09:23 <@froztbyte> that pretty much sounds like operator incompetence 09:23 <@froztbyte> but then that's most people with computers, so... 09:23 <&McMartin> I dunno 09:23 < Tarinaky_> Just because the problem exists between keyboard and chair doesn't mean there isn't a problem. 09:24 <&McMartin> When they do things like put the system hibernate key between the volume control buttons, I blame the keyboard designer~ 09:24 <@froztbyte> I can't speak for most 09:24 <@froztbyte> but I've seen one HP laptop with that same kind of idiocy 09:25 <@froztbyte> (on my Air, the power button is top-right, and volume just are the two keys left of it) 09:25 <&McMartin> On my System76 laptop, the alternate function keys for F2, F3, F4, F5, and F6 are, in order: Shut Down, Mute, Hibernate, Volume Down, Volume Up 09:26 <&McMartin> This displeases me 09:27 < Tarinaky_> The F3's alternate is to turn the wireless hardware on/off on my laptop... 09:27 < Tarinaky_> The Fn key is next to the 'Windows'/Meta key... 09:27 < Tarinaky_> And F3 is very close to 3. 09:27 < Tarinaky_> The number of times I've disconnected from the internet instead of switching desktops is large. 09:28 <@froztbyte> esc, brightness down, brightness up, expose(-I'm-on-windows-fuck-I-can't-compose-argh), launchpad (think menu), keyboard brightness down, keyboard brightness up, media prev, media play/pause, media next, mute, voldown, volup, power 09:28 <@froztbyte> on mine 09:28 <@froztbyte> and I need to press fn if I want F-key functionality 09:28 <@froztbyte> this actually works pretty okay for most of my time 09:28 <@froztbyte> (it's actually only in games that I've needed F-keys) 09:29 <@froztbyte> I'm not gonna drag the lenovo out now, but that's just made of dumb 09:39 * McMartin attempts to install the SDL2 dev libraries. 09:39 * McMartin guesses libsdl2-dev, is wrong 09:39 <&McMartin> mcmartin@osmium:~/devel/monocle/bin$ sudo apt-cache search sdl2 09:39 <&McMartin> python-zsi - Zolera Soap Infrastructure 09:39 <@froztbyte> hahaha 09:39 <@froztbyte> that's probably the description 09:40 <&McMartin> sudo apt-cache search libsdl gives a shitload of stuff, all of it 1.2 09:40 <@froztbyte> (in it, I mean) 09:40 <@froztbyte> k, one moment 09:40 <&McMartin> I swear I saw these in the repo just last week 09:40 <@froztbyte> what is this, wheezy? 09:40 < Tarinaky_> I think, for SDL2, you probably need to build it yourself. 09:40 <&McMartin> Precise. 09:40 <@froztbyte> oh god 09:40 <&McMartin> I refuse 09:40 <@froztbyte> you're on your own 09:40 <&McMartin> froztbyte: It often overlaps! 09:40 <@froztbyte> McMartin: if it was debian, I would've gone out of my way to help you 09:41 <&McMartin> Ah, I see =P 09:41 <@froztbyte> but since it's hookers&blow country, nein danke 09:41 <@froztbyte> people have a really bad view of debian for really bad reasons, and I like to fix that 09:41 youaredead[]]a] [youaredead@Nightstar-s1a.j1p.169.202.IP] has joined #code 09:41 youaredead[]_[^] [youaredead@Nightstar-6q0.pq4.202.124.IP] has joined #code 09:41 youaredead[][^a] [youaredead@Nightstar-ka2.q6m.135.177.IP] has joined #code 09:41 < youaredead[]]a]> FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDF 09:41 < youaredead[]]a]> FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDF 09:41 < youaredead[]_[^]> FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDF 09:41 < youaredead[]]a]> FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDF 09:41 < youaredead[]_[^]> FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD 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elsewhere!] 09:41 mode/#code [+b *!*ouaredead@*.pq4.202.124.IP] by McMartin 09:41 < youaredead[]]a]> FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDF 09:41 < youaredead[]]a]> FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDF 09:41 < youaredead[]]a]> FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD FLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoDFLOoD 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<@froztbyte> McMartin: seriously though, I recently ... persuaded Syka to check out debian 09:42 <@froztbyte> and after helping undo the initial bits of ubuntu braindamage 09:43 <@froztbyte> she's loving it 09:44 <&McMartin> That's great if you don't have to interact with the rest of the universe 09:44 <&McMartin> I have to run what deploy targets run 09:44 <&McMartin> (Happily that means *not* Ubuntu 13.x =P) 09:44 <@froztbyte> eh 09:45 <@froztbyte> at $work we have a whole fleet of ububububuntu 09:45 <~Vornicus> froztbyte: while there is a mode for it, it also prevents bold, italic, and underline. 09:45 <@froztbyte> "you know a thing well enough when you can say why it sucks" 09:45 <@froztbyte> Vornicus: heh. 09:45 <&McMartin> froztbyte: So, uh, am I at least entering reasonable commands here 09:46 <@froztbyte> McMartin: yes 09:46 <@froztbyte> McMartin: I'm going to glance at packages.ubuntu.com now 09:46 <~Vornicus> gneh, I was redirected to magrathea instead of where my admin line is 09:47 <&McMartin> Maybe I did this test in a livecd or something before. 09:47 <@froztbyte> http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=sdl2 09:47 <@froztbyte> saucy seems to have it all 09:47 <@froztbyte> so 09:47 <@froztbyte> what you could do 09:47 <@froztbyte> add saucy to your repo list 09:47 <@froztbyte> pin it /way/ the hell down 09:47 <@froztbyte> (do you know how to pin?) 09:47 <&McMartin> (No) 09:48 <&McMartin> This sounds like more work than building from source already 09:48 <@froztbyte> (do you wish to acquire this knowledge?) 09:48 <@froztbyte> McMartin: it's actually not 09:48 <&McMartin> (Not at 0248 while sick) 09:48 <@froztbyte> it's one line in /etc/apt/sources.list or a file in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ 09:48 <@froztbyte> and a line in /etc/apt/preferences 09:49 <@froztbyte> err, 3 lines, sorry 09:49 <@froztbyte> https://wiki.debian.org/AptPreferences#A.2Fetc.2Fapt.2Fpreferences 09:49 <@froztbyte> so you'd want to pin at priority -1 09:49 <@froztbyte> and release 'saucy' 09:59 Panzer [Panzer@Nightstar-o7b.u5m.89.109.IP] has quit [[NS] Quit: ] 10:34 AverageJoe [evil1@Nightstar-dfmuir.ph.cox.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] 10:36 <@simon> dealing with unary minus in lexical analysis: isn't it best to produce a token, MINUS, and let the parser solve the ambiguity? 10:37 <@simon> I don't see a reasonable way of solving the ambiguity this early. 10:39 <~Vornicus> simon: in regular infix math, your tokens go thing operator thing operator thing operator thing. 10:40 <~Vornicus> So you can alternate between modes. 10:40 <&McMartin> Argh, other dependencies 10:40 * McMartin finishes building from source before getting a chimera system working right. 10:40 <&McMartin> (To be fair, this was with one exception a matter of configure make make install, and I think that exception is what was burning me) 10:41 <&McMartin> Hrm, possibly not. I guess we'll see after this song finishes 10:42 <~Vornicus> with, say, javascript syntax: in the mode where you expect an operator, ( is function call, [ is array index, { is "the previous statement has ended and now I'm in a block" 10:42 <&McMartin> (It's defaulting to modplog instead of mikmod, and SDL2_mixer's modplug support doesn't properly handle MODs that have intros.) 10:42 <~Vornicus> Similarly, - is binary minus in that mode. 10:43 <&McMartin> Mikmod is being... inconsistent 10:43 <~Vornicus> In the mode where you expect a thing, - is unary minus, ( is the start of a grouping, [ is the start of an array literal, and { is the start of an object literal. 10:43 <@simon> Vornicus, so if I've just lexed a number, any subsequent - must be infix (e.g. "2 - 3"), and any immediately subsequent - after that must be unary (e.g. "2 - -3"), and three "-"es after each other is, it seems, an error. 10:43 <@simon> Vornicus, thanks :) 10:50 <~Vornicus> Similarly: prefix and postfix operators can be lexed as different objects this way; parentheses around conditionals reduce your language, uh, level? 10:51 <~Vornicus> even if you go "blocks are required for conditional statements" 11:09 Pirate_chef is now known as Thalass 11:38 < JustBob> Fuck me sideways. 11:38 < JustBob> I hate Excel sometimes. 11:38 < JustBob> Vorn. How do I do isoconcentrations in Excel? 11:39 <~Vornicus> what the fuck is an isoconcentration 11:39 < JustBob> Like, I want to plot X as time, Y as depth, and on that graph, plot percentage removal at a given X,Y intersection. 11:39 < JustBob> Then use that percentage data to plot percentage removal lines. 11:39 < JustBob> One second, lemme find the example. 11:40 < JustBob> http://i.imgur.com/cugVQUz.png 11:40 <~Vornicus> you want to plot those lines. 11:40 < JustBob> I want to display the circled values, and then plot those lines. 11:41 < JustBob> They're X% lines. 11:41 < JustBob> Because I can't even get it to plot the damned things 11:41 <@froztbyte> (why is bob plotting with excel?) 11:41 < JustBob> Because it tells me to. 11:41 <~Vornicus> Okay. 11:41 < JustBob> I could do this in 30 minutes in MatLab 11:41 < JustBob> Not 3 hours of hatefucking my eyes in Excel. 11:41 <~Vornicus> Surface chart, top down view. 11:42 <@froztbyte> JustBob: "it" = your lecturer/prof/whatever? ;P 11:42 < JustBob> Yup 11:43 < JustBob> Vorn - I facefault. Because now that I've been told to use surface instead of scatter... 11:43 < JustBob> I can probably figure this out. 11:45 <~Vornicus> You can format the dependent axis to give you iso lines at fixed intervals. 11:45 <@froztbyte> huh, http://prosody.im/ seems like it might be interesting 11:45 <@froztbyte> wholly different language for the server 11:46 < JustBob> Ah, okay 11:47 <~Vornicus> Labelling data points might be a little harder. 11:49 * Tarinaky_ glares at Chrome for being really weird all of a sudden :/ 11:49 < JustBob> How do I forment the dependent axis? 11:57 < JustBob> Because I could do this by hand. 11:57 < JustBob> So easily. 12:00 <~Vornicus> Justbob: get it selected, and choose "format axis' 12:01 < JustBob> okay 12:01 < JustBob> and? 12:03 <~Vornicus> your, um, -- shit, don't remember the exact names. One of the values in there is a grid spacing. 12:04 <~Vornicus> Set it to 5 and it will give you isolines (not smoothed, unfortunately) every 5. 12:04 < JustBob> okay 12:05 < JustBob> Doesn't do anything 12:05 <~Vornicus> Uh... hm 12:06 < JustBob> Do you want me to just send you the file? 12:06 < JustBob> I literally have no idea wtf to do with manipulating this data 12:07 <~Vornicus> ...sure 12:07 < JustBob> What I'd prefer is to have some sort of 3d XYZ plot where I can spec time as X, depth as Y, and just /display/ the Z values. 12:07 < JustBob> I can draw the damned isolines by hand if I have to. 12:08 < JustBob> people.oregonstate.edu/~loa/Class/hw3.xlsx 12:10 <~Vornicus> gnah, silly thing, let me select the right axis. 12:11 <~Vornicus> Okay, click approximately around the lower left corner; you want to get the vertical (value) axis. 12:12 <~Vornicus> format /that/, change Major Unit to 5. 12:14 < JustBob> Okay 12:14 < JustBob> THat makes a lot more sense. 12:15 <~Vornicus> obviously this isn't very pretty. 12:15 <~Vornicus> It only does linear interpolation along orthogonal lines in the data. 12:17 < JustBob> eh 12:17 < JustBob> good enough 12:17 < JustBob> just wish it had data labels, too, but w/e 12:17 < JustBob> I'm tossing the points on this one 12:39 Thalass [thalass@Nightstar-k6vtdf.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] 13:08 * Syka_ has a very intense sad at this client PC 13:09 <@TheWatcher> Is it like an entire depressed clown car of sad? 13:09 < Syka_> it's old enough to have an IDE drive, is 90% dust, and has a pentium D 13:09 < Syka_> TheWatcher: that is a very apt description for this variety of sad 13:09 < Syka_> so yeah, I am just not going to touch it 13:09 < Syka_> and call up the client tomorrow and go "yeah, no" 13:10 <@TheWatcher> Better idea: charge them$5000 to set it up as a /dev/null as a Service node! 13:10 < Syka_> I /really/ don't like telling people "you need to buy a new PC, as this one is way past its use by date" 13:10 < Syka_> TheWatcher: ehhh, it's an individual 13:10 < Syka_> and a family friend, too 13:10 <@TheWatcher> Bah, fine 13:10 <@TheWatcher> $4500 13:10 < Syka_> rofl 13:10 < Syka_> sounds like my main competitor in town 13:11 < Syka_> once he sold someone a "new" PC for$3K 13:11 < Syka_> it had someone elses photos already on it :'D 13:11 <@TheWatcher> .... eech. That's just scum. 13:12 < Syka_> yeppp 13:12 < Syka_> my OTHER competitor tried to sell a $12,000 fuji-xerox printer to a non-profit with two office staff 13:13 <@TheWatcher> Classy. 13:15 < Syka_> oh and it was billed per page on top of that 13:15 < Syka_> I got them a$700 brother which did the exact same and had an only very marginally more expensive per page cost 13:15 < Syka_> well, "exact same" as in, everything but A3 13:16 < Syka_> but they didn't want A3, so, practically the same for their purposes 13:27 < Tarinaky_> You must make a killing. 13:27 < Tarinaky_> With competitors like that. 13:28 < Syka_> Tarinaky_: it depends! 13:28 < Syka_> Tarinaky_: I have a combination of Knowing What I'm Doing, and then I have complete social ineptitude and crushing laziness 13:28 < Syka_> in the past... almost-year, I've issued some 73 invoices 13:28 < Syka_> with a post-tax value of $35K 13:29 < Tarinaky_> Dare I ask how many of said invoices get paid? :p 13:29 < Syka_> naturally, a lot of that is hardware costs, so the profit is much lower 13:29 < Syka_> Tarinaky_: all of them! 13:29 < Tarinaky_> That's okay then. 13:29 < Syka_> Tarinaky_: well, except two that are currently within the 30 day limit 13:30 < Syka_> but yeah 13:30 < Syka_> this next contract is going to be great 13:31 < Syka_> proper consulting work @v@ 13:31 < Syka_> (aka: lots of billable hours) 13:31 < Syka_> and I even beat out a multi-million dollar multi-state consulting corp on it! 13:31 < Syka_> which i'm still giggling about 13:37 celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-90d86201.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #code 13:37 mode/#code [+o celticminstrel] by ChanServ 13:46 < Tarinaky_> Well, if you're looking to hire~ :p 14:10 Vornicus [vorn@Nightstar-sn7kve.sd.cox.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] 14:15 < Xires> general query: as a professional programmer with over, say, 5 years of experience in a particular language; should you no longer have need for a language reference? 14:16 < Tarinaky_> 'No'. Reference manuals are bloody useful. 14:16 <@gnolam> You'll always have a need for a language reference. 14:17 < Tarinaky_> It's literally impossible for one person to remember even the standard libraries, in their entirety, for anything other than a toy language. 14:18 < Xires> that was my thought 14:19 < Xires> I went in for a 'test' for Check Point Software Technologies and was denied access to a language reference for the test 14:19 < Xires> just couldn't remember the fscking syntax for what I was trying to do 14:19 < JustBob> That's what we in the business call bloody fucking stupid. 14:19 < JustBob> But I admit that I'm not a coder; I'm an engineer. 14:19 < Xires> out of 4 tests, the firewall && antivirus tests were done in under 15 minutes each 14:19 < JustBob> If I had to memorize all 6524324 equations I use on a regular basis... I would probably say "fuck this" and go study business. 14:20 < Xires> but I 'failed' the other two because it took too long 14:20 < Xires> with a language reference, all 4 would've been done in under an hour 14:20 Thalass [thalass@Nightstar-k6vtdf.bigpond.net.au] has joined #code 14:20 < Tarinaky_> Usually they tell you that if you don't remember a particular function to use pseudocode or otherwise indicate your thinking. 14:20 < Tarinaky_> I like to believe they mean it. 14:22 < Xires> nope, the goal was to finish 14:23 < Xires> I did write down the algorithm in mind 14:23 < Tarinaky_> Well, not all employers are equal. 14:23 < Xires> logically, it seemed pretty perfect 14:23 < Xires> indeed 14:23 < Xires> I spent over an hour on the DLP test itself 14:23 < Xires> everything worked but 1 message in over 3,000 failed because it was dropped when it should've been accepted 14:23 < Xires> for no reason 14:25 <@simon> does anyone have a good example of something that is difficult to lexify without a lexer generator? 14:25 <@simon> I've got one example, which is scientific-notation floating point numbers. 14:26 <@simon> 0.5E-10 could be interpreted as "0.5" followed by the variable "E", followed by the integer "-10". 14:26 < Xires> summations? 14:27 <@simon> Xires, as in? 14:27 < JustBob> Any pictoral/ideographic language? 14:27 <@simon> JustBob, that sounds a bit esoteric. what do you mean? 14:28 < JustBob> Try coding in mandarin. 14:28 < JustBob> Quietly cry. 14:28 <@simon> I suppose I'm mainly looking for classical language constructs that are hard to lex. 14:29 <@simon> Xires, do you mean something like \sum_i^n ...? 14:30 < JustBob> I suspect that an alternative would be multi-line equations? 14:30 < Tarinaky_> I don't think there are any classical language constructs that're hard to lex for fairly obvious reasons. 14:30 <@froztbyte> It's literally impossible for one person to remember even the standard libraries, in their entirety, for anything other than a toy language. 14:30 <@froztbyte> bzzzt 14:31 <@froztbyte> it's just not generally likely. 14:31 < Tarinaky_> froztbyte: In their /entirety/? 14:31 < JustBob> in the sense of, say, integral(6*(e^(2))*d+3*pi*(d^2)*sqrt(2)+(2^(1/2)),d) 14:31 < Tarinaky_> I mean... they get updated every 5->10 years depending on the language. 14:31 <@froztbyte> Tarinaky_: yes 14:31 <@froztbyte> Tarinaky_: eidetic memory is a thing 14:32 < Tarinaky_> Touche. 14:32 < Tarinaky_> I don't think this detracts from the meaning and wisdom of the sentence though. 14:32 < Tarinaky_> Just the pedantic literalism :p 14:33 <@simon> Tarinaky_, "hard" is perhaps too subjective. the two things I've found so far is: the distinction between unary and binary minus, and scientific-notation floating-point numbers. 14:33 <@froztbyte> hahaha 14:33 < JustBob> Especially if you use a nonstandard spacing setup. 14:33 <@froztbyte> well, part of the reason I can pick things up so quickly is because I have a very good memory 14:33 < JustBob> Unless you do a character by character read, you might screw an input like that up. But fuckall if I know for certain; I'm an engineer who's forced to code. :p 14:34 < Tarinaky_> simon: My point is that if something is hard an engineer is likely to engineer /around/ it and turn it into a simpler problem. 14:34 <@simon> Tarinaky_, right. I'm tempted to solve unary/binary minuses in the parser instead. 14:34 < Tarinaky_> Have you had the rest of the channel force you to read The Dragon Book yet? 14:35 < JustBob> Nope. 14:35 <@simon> Tarinaky_, I suppose what I'm interested in is: a regular language that is better described as a state-machine rather than a program. 14:35 < JustBob> I suspect I'm going to have to bite the bullet and read it when I pick up my BS in CS, though. 14:36 < Tarinaky_> simon: Finite State Automata aren't Turing Complete. 14:36 <@simon> Tarinaky_, neither do you usually expect lexers to be. 14:36 < Tarinaky_> And lexing is only half the battle... 14:36 <@simon> Tarinaky_, i.e. something with a bunch of nondeterminism in it, but which eventually unwinds. 14:38 < Tarinaky_> Err... determinism? 14:39 < Tarinaky_> Are you... sure you're choosing the right word there... 14:39 < JustBob> Speaking of which. Should I do the entire degree in a year, or spread it out over a couple years? 14:39 < Tarinaky_> P. sure a non-deterministic state machine is a Markov-Chain. 14:39 <@simon> ah, I understand why you would mention Turing-completeness, since I mentioned programs. what I meant was that a regular language, described by a classical NFA graph generated by a regex, vs. a manually-written program, the former tends to win (or rather: manually writing lexers vs. using a lexer generator, the latter tends to win). 14:40 <@simon> I didn't know they were. :) 14:41 < Tarinaky_> I... think you're confusing me. 14:41 * Tarinaky_ double checks something... so long since he's cared about state machines. 14:42 < Tarinaky_> By non-deterministic you just meant read-ahead didn't you? 14:42 <@simon> basically: I'm looking for good examples for people to wish to use lexer generators rather than writing their own functions, because those functions, representing the state-machines that lexer-generators automatically generate, tend to get kind of complicated. 14:42 <@simon> yeah. 14:42 < Tarinaky_> Okay, ignore my comment about Markov-Chains. 14:54 < Xon2> simon, a lot of compilers/lexers these days end up being hand written rather than using a lexer generator 14:54 Xon2 is now known as XOn 14:54 XOn is now known as Xon 14:55 < Xon> because the grammer to generate the lexer is generally horrible to debug & maintain with RL programming languages which have decades of cruff accumulated in thier design 14:57 Stalker [Z@Nightstar-484uip.cust.comxnet.dk] has joined #code 14:58 <@simon> Xon, right. 14:58 < Xon> for example, Clang & GCC have a hand written parser 15:00 celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-90d86201.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [[NS] Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 15:08 < Xon> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ericwhite/archive/2010/09/24/building-a-simple-recursive -descent-parser-completed-simple-parser.aspx 15:08 < Xon> lol, Linq-based Recursive Descent Parser for Excel spreadsheet formulas 15:26 Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: @Syloq, Xon, Typherix, @Orthia, Attilla, PinkFreu1, Stalker, @Alek, Tarinaky_, @froztbyte, (+4 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 15:27 Netsplit over, joins: RichyB, PinkFreu1, &jerith, jeroud, @Orthia, @froztbyte, Stalker, Turaiel[Offline], Tarinaky_, Typherix (+4 more) 15:30 Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel 16:12 <@Alek> wow, the flood guy's a regular now. 16:44 Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] 16:51 <@iospace> oh? 16:57 < Tarinaky_> Every nick he's joined with so far has contained three characters from the set {'[',']'} and one instance of the letter a. 16:57 Thalass is now known as Thalass|sleeps 17:08 Derakon2 [chriswei@Nightstar-4k2ccr.ca.comcast.net] has joined #code 17:09 * Derakon2 eyes his microscope control code. 17:09 < Derakon2> Why are you setting the exposure time to 1ms in the experiment runtime but not in my handmade function that exactly duplicates the experiment runtime effects. 17:09 < Derakon2> Rasser frassin' cheeky software... 17:49 < Derakon2> Ahh, the problem was that I was using a decimal.Decimal() object when talking to a specific library, and it was silently accepting it and misinterpreting the result. 17:50 < Derakon2> \o/ it works now 18:04 < Derakon2> I note that the only way I was able to figure this out is by monkey-patching the setProperty() function of said library. 18:04 < Derakon2> Hooray for monkey-patching~ 19:12 Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel 19:39 <@iospace> anti-static smock + sweatshirt = hot iospace 19:48 <@Azash> hot iospace lab action in your area 19:48 <@Azash> Derakon2: Monkey-patching? 19:48 <@iospace> Azash: more or less, though there was still ice on the Liquid N2 lines 19:55 <&ToxicFrog> Azash: modifying the contents of other code at runtime, more or less - e.g. after initialization, replacing some of the methods in a library cass 20:00 < Derakon2> In this case, I replaced a class instance's function with a different function that a) printed the arguments, and b) called the original function. 20:09 <@Azash> Ah 20:18 Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] 20:24 <&jerith> https://twitter.com/fijall/status/396309859106160640 20:24 < Derakon2> Fantastic. 20:37 PinkFreu1 is now known as PinkFreud 20:38 mode/#code [+o PinkFreud] by ChanServ 20:48 Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel 20:49 <@Azash> Maciej Fijalkowski â@fijall 4h 20:49 himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] 20:50 <@Azash> " Failed tests usually indicate a problem with your local system setup and not within PHP itself" I like the attitude 20:50 <@froztbyte> hey a wild fijal quote 20:50 <@Tamber> Of course it's a problem with your local system setup. Your system has PHP on it! 20:50 Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody 20:53 <@Azash> Tamber: WP 20:54 <@Tamber> :p 21:03 himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code 21:03 mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ 21:07 VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-6i5vf7.sta.comporium.net] has joined #code 21:07 Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] 21:21 Stalker [Z@Nightstar-484uip.cust.comxnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] 21:35 himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] 21:44 Vornicus [vorn@Nightstar-sn7kve.sd.cox.net] has joined #code 21:44 mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ 21:48 himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code 21:48 mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ 22:03 ErikMesoy [Erik@Nightstar-ekm.o7n.203.80.IP] has joined #code 22:08 himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] 22:10 Stalker [Z@Nightstar-pdi1tp.customer.tdc.net] has joined #code 22:21 himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code 22:21 mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ 22:27 himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] 22:34 ktemkin[afk] is now known as ktemkin 22:38 Derakon2 [chriswei@Nightstar-4k2ccr.ca.comcast.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: leaving] 22:40 <&McMartin> Hey, Git question. Is there an equivalent to Subversion's date tags? 22:40 himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code 22:40 mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ 22:43 <&ToxicFrog> McMartin: what's a date tag? 22:44 <&McMartin> In Subversion, it causes the file when released to automatically contain a timestamp of its last edit at that point 22:45 <&ToxicFrog> "released"? 22:45 <&McMartin> That thing you do to software occasionally 22:45 < ErikMesoy> When you let newbies use it. 22:45 <&McMartin> http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.7/svn.advanced.props.special.keywords.html 22:46 <&ToxicFrog> That looks more like "every time you commit" 22:47 <&McMartin> I'm trying to avoid mathematician's answers here so I'm deliberately avoiding all words that Subversion and Git both define 22:47 <&McMartin> Because they are never the same thing 22:49 <&ToxicFrog> Hmm. 22:50 <&ToxicFrog> Ok, so, built in, there's no support for this, and I've honestly never missed it and am annoyed when I find those tags in source files 22:50 <&ToxicFrog> There are a bunch of ways you can implement it yourself (or install a canned version from someone else who has implemented) 22:52 <&ToxicFrog> If you want it to happen on commit (which is what SVN appears to do), you probably want a smudge/clean filter or a pre-commit filter; git-scm.com/book/ has a worked example of the former in chapter 7.2 22:53 <&ToxicFrog> If you want it to happen on export (i.e. when you call git-archive to generate a tarball for someone), you want the export-subst attribute 22:53 <&ToxicFrog> Which does actually have some support for SVN date tags 22:54 <&ToxicFrog> cf http://git-scm.com/book/ch7-2.html#Exporting-Your-Repository 22:54 <&ToxicFrog> Finally, if you want it for some kind of automated tool, it may be easier for it to just get the data out of git directly. 22:55 <&McMartin> We want it for content pack metadata, IIRC. 22:56 <&McMartin> Also, SDL_mixer is worse than I remember 22:56 <&McMartin> On the plus side, this means that it can actually play all the WaDF bonus songs 23:13 Vornicus [vorn@Nightstar-sn7kve.sd.cox.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] 23:18 <&ToxicFrog> McMartin: how are the content packs generated? 23:20 * TheWatcher readsup 23:21 <@TheWatcher> McM: my suggestion, use annotated tags on releases, and then VERS=git tag -n1 | sort -V | tail -n1 | perl -e '$tag = ; $tag =~ s/^.*?\s\s+(.*)$/$1/; print$tag;'` 23:21 <@TheWatcher> \$VERS will contain the last tag annotation 23:24 * TheWatcher uses that to include the release info in doxygen generated docs, eg: https://github.com/TheWatcher/webperl/blob/master/makedocs.sh 23:29 <&McMartin> IIRC, the cvs->svn->git conversion used unannotated tags 23:29 <&McMartin> TF: With a shell script that should really be python ;-) 23:29 <&McMartin> And yeah, we can just do the work there, I suppose 23:34 ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep 23:41 Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] 23:42 <&McMartin> Nice, the SDL2 API is clearly optimized for abstracting over "draw in a pixel buffer" vs. "render to texture, then scale that to fit the screen, pillarboxing as necessary" 23:42 <&McMartin> aka The Only Way To Do That Right --- Log closed Sat Nov 02 00:00:32 2013