code logs -> 2013 -> Thu, 31 Oct 2013< code.20131030.log - code.20131101.log >
--- Log opened Thu Oct 31 00:00:02 2013
00:00
<&McMartin>
Going back to the original question, though
00:01
<&McMartin>
"Is the NSA going rogue" is a different question from "Is the NSA's scope excessive"
00:01
<&McMartin>
Everything I've seen indicates the answer to the first question is "no"
00:01 Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon
00:02
<&McMartin>
And I consider the Dual_EC_DRBG case to actually be more like "The NSA is being derelict in its duties"
00:03
<&McMartin>
Oho, and the case before was actually the 70s, not the 90s. It was the original DES.
00:03
<&Derakon>
God dammit Reiver, now I want to work on Jetblade again >.<
00:04
<&Derakon>
(I note that procgenned platformers are the perfect vehicle for DLC, since each pack can give you a new region, set of powerups, and enemies.
00:05
<@Tarinaky>
Whatever happened to your procedural Metroidvania thing?
00:05
<&Derakon>
That's Jetblade.
00:05
<@Azash>
http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/10/silent-circle-and-lavabit-launch-darkmai l-alliance-to-thwart-e-mail-spying/
00:05
<&Derakon>
It got stalled out due to some fundamental design issues.
00:05
<&Derakon>
Specifically, the procedural generation aspect was overly general.
00:05
<&Derakon>
It made beautiful cave systems but was hell to build a game around.
00:06
<&McMartin>
Heh
00:06
<&McMartin>
You could make it a melancholy combat-free exploration game!
00:06
<&Derakon>
And sell 5 copies!
00:07
<&McMartin>
Proteus sold way more copies than that!
00:07
<&Derakon>
Well, sell 0 copies if I were to base on the original Jetblade engine, since that's all FOSS.
00:07
<&McMartin>
For one penny each, but still!
00:07
<&Derakon>
Heh.
00:07
<&Derakon>
Jetblade also had the problem that it was aiming for a quote-unquote realistic style.
00:07
<&Derakon>
Which is harder to do well than a cartoony style would be.
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00:22 * Vornicus should get back to working on Vorntiers, but it's crunch time re: work.
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00:33
<&McMartin>
Hmm. People better at network/crypto than me:
00:33
<&McMartin>
http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/10/silent-circle-and-lavabit-launch-darkmai l-alliance-to-thwart-e-mail-spying/
00:34
<&McMartin>
How does encrypted XMPP defeat traffic analysis?
00:38
<@Reiv>
Didn't lavabit die?
00:38
<@Reiv>
Or has it since been ungagged?
00:38
<@Reiv>
I really need a news aggregator that is better at 'keep an eye on this subject'.
00:39
<&McMartin>
It looks like it's been partially ungagged: they had been ordered by a judge to turn over their SSL keyes.
00:39
<&McMartin>
*keys
00:39
<&McMartin>
Also, as you may recall, Corporations Are People
00:39
<&McMartin>
Lavabit is totally dead!
00:39
<&McMartin>
Darkmail is an entirely different legal entity
00:39
<&McMartin>
That happens to share some board members with the defunct Lavabit and Silent Circle entities.
00:40
<&McMartin>
It's also worth noting that they were ordered to turn over their SSL keys when their reply to standard law enforcement disclosure requests was "we don't store that information"
00:40
<@Reiv>
... they can order you to turn over SSL keys
00:40
<@Reiv>
That's kinda scary.
00:41
<@Reiv>
hn
00:41
<@Reiv>
Does that make it more forgivable?
00:41
<&McMartin>
Well, they *can't*, apparently, order you to actually store information that would be responsive to subpoenas~
00:41
<&McMartin>
Uh, that's a complicated question
00:42
<&McMartin>
Compared to, say, Germany, this is highly extreme; but Germany also apparently requires you to keep adequate records for them to capture as needed and the gag-order part of such capture is routine instead of requiring something with ominous acronyms.
00:42
<&McMartin>
And they're supposed to be one of the best ones out there
00:42
<&McMartin>
I admit to preferring "require a certain amount of record-keeping and then never use extreme measures"
00:43
<&McMartin>
But I'm pretty sure that this makes me a jackbooted thug of the surveilliance state because I'm requiring a certain amount of record-keeping that law enforcement gets access to
00:44
<&McMartin>
Also, judges can order all kinds of things; that's kinda what the judiciary is for
00:45
<&McMartin>
A judge that thinks you're trying to skate on technicalities to hold out on him for stuff he thinks he's entitled to often has a very wide array of options, and I'm pretty sure this is how that judge viewed that.
00:45
<@Reiv>
So what's the new solution?
00:45
<&McMartin>
Especially after they initially provided the SSL key as a printout.
00:45
<@Reiv>
Also: With all this, I'm still waiting for the New BitTorrent.
00:45
< Syka_>
at least germany sorta says it up front
00:45
< Syka_>
as part of doing business, you need to keep these records
00:45
<@Reiv>
You'd think some cryptogeeks out there would be inventing it.
00:45
<&McMartin>
Syka_: Yeah, that's really the question
00:45
< Syka_>
rather than LOL ALL UR DATA NAOW
00:46
<&McMartin>
Well, no
00:46
< Syka_>
McMartin: then its just a function of doing business
00:46
< Syka_>
ie. don't do business there if that compromises your business
00:46
<&McMartin>
The question is "if "LOL ALL UR DATA NAOW" is a required part of every contract, is that better or worse"
00:46
< Syka_>
well, I think it's better
00:46
<&McMartin>
I call them out here because they're supposed to be the privacy paragons
00:46
<&McMartin>
I agree that it is
00:46
< Syka_>
because then you can clearly avoid it
00:47
<&McMartin>
But I also have to admit that it boils down to "trust us"
00:47
<&McMartin>
Well
00:47
<&McMartin>
If they *really are* a paragon
00:47
<&McMartin>
You have two choices: places that admit it, and places that try to hide it.
00:47
< Syka_>
but "MURICA FREE SPEECH oh wait no nevermind, give us everything ever and wiretap all your servers :D"
00:47
< Syka_>
is also bad form
00:47
<&McMartin>
That's not what "free speech" means, as I assume you know~
00:47
< Syka_>
McMartin: yes :P
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00:48
< Syka_>
but america is all for freedomz, and "thats why the terrorists hate us"
00:48
< Syka_>
and then oh wait, there's a great big police state there
00:48
< Syka_>
also, does this mean the terrorists won?
00:48
<&McMartin>
Dude, America has been a Kenyonesian Maoist Dictatorship since like 2009
00:49
< Syka_>
because if they do as they say on the tin
00:49
< Syka_>
ie. create terror
00:49
< Syka_>
they seem to have scared the bloody pants off the USG
00:49
< RichyB>
"<McMartin> How does encrypted XMPP defeat traffic analysis?" I think that the answer is "it doesn't".
00:49
<&McMartin>
Syka_: Well, there's usually in there "in the service of a political goal"
00:50
<&McMartin>
IIRC the actual goal for 9/11 was "US troops out of Saudi Arabia"
00:50
< Syka_>
McMartin: Kenyonesnain?
00:50
< Syka_>
McMartin: you didnt fit the word muslim in there :|
00:50 You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ]
00:50
< RichyB>
There are no details in that Ars piece that are particularly interesting aside from the acknowledgement that the DarkMail people are aware of the reasons for which Lavabit was a cryptographic clusterfuck to begin with
00:50
<&McMartin>
Syka_: Barack Hussein Obama is totally a Kenyan Indonesian Atheist Muslim Radical Black Liberation Christian
00:50
< Syka_>
and now Big Brother
00:51
< Syka_>
man, he's going to require one hell of a nametag
00:51
<&McMartin>
Yeah, uh, if you think Obama *started* this you have some reading to do, I'm afraid
00:51
< Syka_>
yes, I know
00:51
< Syka_>
it's happened since like, the 90s
00:51
< Syka_>
AT&T black rooms and et
00:51
< Syka_>
etc*
00:51
<&McMartin>
More like the 40s.
00:51
< Syka_>
McMartin: well, yes, foreign stuff
00:51
< Syka_>
I mean domestic dragnets
00:52
< RichyB>
(perfect forward secrecy not being a default property + violation of the end-to-end principle)
00:52
<&McMartin>
Blanket pen registers go back to the postwar period domestically too, IIRC
00:52
< Syka_>
ie. it became cheap enough to collect
00:52
< Syka_>
cheap enough to collect *everything*, rather
00:52
<&McMartin>
Granted, pen registers correspond to metadata here, not taps
00:52
< Syka_>
while before you would have to listen to phone taps
00:52
<@Reiv>
You know, it was not until this very conversation that I learned that the NSA was SIGINT
00:52
<@Reiv>
I had thought that the CIA did both avenues.
00:52
< Syka_>
NSA are sigint?
00:53
< Syka_>
i thought they were something else
00:53
< Syka_>
wait no, they are signals intel
00:53
< RichyB>
Anyway. They're not talking about defeating traffic analysis at all, otherwise they'd have to start by talking about deliberately compromising message delivery latency and efficiency by sending fake messages around a mesh on purpose.
00:53
< Syka_>
they are foreign sigint, CIA are domestic sigint, I think
00:53
<&McMartin>
NSA is exclusively SIGINT, CIA is supposed to be all intel but in practice is largely HUMINT.
00:53
<&McMartin>
CIA is supposed to also be purely abroad
00:53
< Syka_>
who is domestic then?
00:53
<&McMartin>
The FBI is domestic stuff, and they count as law enforcement.
00:53
< Syka_>
oh fbi
00:53
< Syka_>
right
00:54
< Syka_>
in australia, we just have the Feds
00:54
< Syka_>
and ASIO i guess
00:54
< Syka_>
but theyre also the Feds
00:54
<&McMartin>
One nice thing about this is all our alphabet soup bureaucracies have widely available TV shows
00:54
< Syka_>
one big blob of "we're gonna arrest your ass"
00:54
<&McMartin>
Meanwhile, in the US, "The Fed" is the group that controls the money supply
00:54
<&McMartin>
(Federal Reserve)
00:54
< Syka_>
well
00:54
< Syka_>
i've heard of "the feds" meaning the fbi
00:54
< Syka_>
ie. on the *chans
00:54
<&McMartin>
How much autonomy do Australian provinces (? states?) have
00:55
< Syka_>
McMartin: it depends
00:55
< Syka_>
in what element
00:55
<&McMartin>
Yeah, "the feds" are "any element of the Federal Government", really
00:55
< Syka_>
they are all the federal's bitch
00:55
< Syka_>
because taxes are federal
00:55
<&McMartin>
Yes, that's what supremacy clauses are for
00:55
< Syka_>
so they have to suck up to the feds for money
00:55
<&McMartin>
But the US devolves a lot of stuff, etc
00:55
< Syka_>
but lots of things are state level
00:55
<&McMartin>
Most of educational curricula, standard criminal law, etc
00:55
< Syka_>
ie. police, education
00:55
< Syka_>
most of our laws are federal
00:56
<&McMartin>
Murder generally speaking isn't a federal crime, it's just illegal in all 50 states
00:56
< Syka_>
if theyre not, its very minor
00:56
<&McMartin>
Fleeing across state lines after murdering someone makes it a federal case.
00:56
< Syka_>
but, again, with the "federals bitch"
00:56
<&McMartin>
(See also the idiom "making a federal case out of it")
00:56
< Syka_>
if the feds want a law in every state, they'll get it
00:56
< Syka_>
or the reverse
00:56
<&McMartin>
Heh
00:56
<&McMartin>
Well
00:56
< Syka_>
right now the feds are trying to stomp on the ACT's gay marriage law
00:56
<&McMartin>
We have a rather grim and obvious counterexample for that here
00:56
< Syka_>
which is hella ironic
00:57
< Syka_>
as the ACT is basically what Washington DC is in the US
00:57
< Syka_>
a tiny bit of land containing the federal capital
00:57
<&McMartin>
Ah, this is a place then where the US and Australia share a similar contempt for their own capitals~
00:57
< Syka_>
similarly to the US, it has always voted for the left-wing party
00:58
<&McMartin>
(DC licence plates have as their semi-official motto "Taxation Without Representation")
00:58
< Syka_>
hah
00:58
< Syka_>
well, the ACT is a Territory
00:58
< Syka_>
territories get screwed
00:58 * McMartin nods
00:58
< Syka_>
nearly no federal representation in the senate
00:58
< Syka_>
which is good
00:58
< Syka_>
as every Territory we have is shit
00:58
<&McMartin>
I have no idea what the deal is with US territories
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00:58
< Syka_>
the ACT and the Northern Territory and the shitty islands
00:59
< thalass>
?
00:59
<&McMartin>
They seem to vary between "what, where, who what?" and "why aren't they a state yet"
00:59
< Syka_>
none of them deserve a federal vote
00:59
< thalass>
O_o
00:59
<&McMartin>
Thalass: US and AU federal disrespect for non-states
00:59
< Syka_>
thalass: we are discussing states and things
00:59
< thalass>
Ah.
00:59
< Syka_>
seriously, the northern territory is a shithole
00:59
< Syka_>
they effectively have no speed limit
00:59
< Syka_>
because there are no police on the highway
00:59 * McMartin was ignorant of how "tight" Australia's federal government is over the states
01:00
<&McMartin>
Heh
01:00
< Syka_>
and the roads are long, flat and empty
01:00
< Syka_>
180kmh with a caravan on is scary
01:00
< thalass>
Howard made them have a 130km/h limit. The death rate on those long boring highways went up. :P
01:00
<&McMartin>
Montana ("Big Sky Country") literally had no speed limit for awhile.
01:00
< Syka_>
McMartin: but yeah
01:00
< Syka_>
generally, here
01:00
< Syka_>
the states are division of work units
01:00
< thalass>
Admittedly my source for that is Wheels Magazine, who are not unbiased
01:00
< Syka_>
rather than being entities upon themselves
01:00
<&McMartin>
What this actually meant was that it had a *secret* speed limit because it's always OK for them to ticket you for going "too fast for conditions"
01:00
< thalass>
hee
01:01
< Syka_>
there are the different laws
01:01
< Syka_>
but nothing major
01:01 * McMartin nods
01:01
< Syka_>
ie. no "lol pot is legal here"
01:01
<&McMartin>
That's more like state-municipal
01:01
< Syka_>
but mace is legal in WA and nowhere else
01:01
<&McMartin>
Oy, pot laws >_<
01:01
< Syka_>
and the same with e-collar imports
01:01
<@Reiv>
McMartin: My understanding is that the Australian states have considerably less power than their american counterparts; they're effectively super-councils.
01:01
<&McMartin>
We have to do some dancing to make those work.
01:01
< Syka_>
states rights is not a thing
01:01
< Syka_>
well
01:01
<&McMartin>
The feds are supposed to be mandated by international treaty to crush the states that are legalizing pot
01:02
< Syka_>
WA has threatened to secceed
01:02
< Syka_>
because we are the rich one
01:02
<&McMartin>
There is mysteriously not enough money in the budget to do this, so tragic
01:02
< Syka_>
and the rest of the states have no minerals
01:02
< Syka_>
or anything of worth
01:02
< Syka_>
right now, NSW is mostly on fire
01:02
<&McMartin>
Literally or figuratively
01:02
< Syka_>
literally
01:02
<&McMartin>
(Asks the Californian)
01:02
< Syka_>
there is a lot of fire there right now
01:02
<&McMartin>
... right, it's moving on towards fire season for you guys, and that would be six months removed from CA fire season
01:02
< Syka_>
our prime minister is on the ground fighting it, even
01:03
<&McMartin>
Damn
01:03
< Syka_>
he may be a right wing misogynist asshole
01:03
<@Reiv>
McMartin: There is more Physically On Fire Right Now than there is Sydney, counting the suburbs
01:03 * Derakon eyes this channel, wonders why it has morphed into #fleet.
01:03
< Syka_>
but he does have some redeeming qualities
01:03
< Syka_>
that, and he's not Fucking Gillard, or Fucking Rudd
01:03
<@Namegduf>
Most jurisdictions do not actually consider treaties to be directly binding on executive branch/function behaviour (or behaviour of anyone non-governmental for that matter), but consider it a matter for the legislature to either make appropriate law or for people to deal with international repecussions
01:03
<@Reiv>
Because Syka does not hang out in FLEET.
01:03
<@Namegduf>
AIUI
01:03
<@Reiv>
Syka probably should.
01:03
<&McMartin>
Namegduf: That soudns about right
01:03
< Syka_>
what is fleet
01:04
<&McMartin>
A social channel full of geeks
01:04
<@Reiv>
Syka: Another channel on the network. Consider it 'the place where this sort of conversation is commonplace'.
01:04
< Syka_>
wonderful, where do i sign up
01:04
<@Reiv>
#Code is, in fact, a side-branch of several channels, in which the programmers kept monopolising screenspace with technical discussions on esoteric systems/programs/code assistance
01:05
< Syka_>
hmm okay it is 9am and i am mildly shaking for some reason
01:05
< Syka_>
i wonder why this is
01:05
<@Reiv>
So I kinda figured "Hey why not have a dedicated channel so they don't flood out their own chans, and while we're at it make it cross-channel so that way expertise is not silo'd"
01:06
<@Reiv>
And thus #Code was born. (I was just too lazy to keep founder status. It's fine, because Vorn is my bromance.)
01:07 * thalass reads up
01:08
< thalass>
We apparently did secede, or at least the referendum passed, but then WW2 kicked in and we realised we didn't have our own military and backed down. :P
01:09
< Syka_>
rofl
01:09
<&McMartin>
I hope Canberra sent a telegram that literally read "You and what army" >_>
01:10
< thalass>
hah
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01:31 * thalass idly wonders if one could set up a honeypot computer (or VM) for those "tech support" calls to access.
01:31
< Syka_>
thalass: yeah, it'd be easy
01:31
< Syka_>
virtualbox + paste some pictures from google on it
01:31
< Syka_>
set a really bad picture as a background
01:31
< Syka_>
some text files named DFGBDFG
01:31
< Syka_>
and they'll never know the difference
01:35
< thalass>
haha
01:36
< thalass>
If i had the codefu i'd have one waiting for the next time i got one of those calls. Infect those guys with various viruses etc. Sadly i'm still poking at Python.
01:47
<@Alek>
thal: it's been done. XD
01:47
<@Alek>
been linked in here over the past few days, iirc.
01:48
<@gnolam>
Alek: find it!
01:48
<@gnolam>
I hope they set Tubgirl as the desktop background.
01:48
<@Alek>
lazy!
01:49
<@Alek>
some guy had a win2k vm, set up a bunch of viruses in passwords.zip and a bunch of spacedicks in bankdata.zip, let the logmein in.
01:49 * thalass laughs
01:49
< thalass>
winning
01:49
<@Alek>
inorite
01:58
<@Xon>
<ToxicFrog> Anyways. Now it's all encrypted. Hopefully they haven't broken SSL~
01:58
<@Xon>
they can just demand the SSL cert and then issue a gag order on google handing over the certs
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08:57
<&McMartin>
OK, it looks like Monocle mostly builds on MinGW after some makefile tweaks.
08:58
<&McMartin>
I'll have to experiment more thoroughly to let it coexist, and I don't trust the exports yet.
08:58
<&McMartin>
But I got the demo to build! https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/games/DD/earthball_demo.zip
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11:01
<@Tarinaky>
I would like to convey my sincerest thanks to all of the lecturers out there who actually do send emails informing the students in advance of their intentions to take part in strike activity.
11:02
<@Tarinaky>
Instead of leaving me as the only mook sat up here on my own wondering where the fuck everyone else is ;/
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11:07 * TheWatcher isn't boethering striking today, can't see the point
11:07
<@TheWatcher>
You know that definition of insanity, the "repeating the same actions and expecting different outcomes"?
11:07
<@TheWatcher>
Yeah
11:09
<@TheWatcher>
I've yet to recieve a straight answer to the simple question "Exactly how is this strike supposed to produce a useful outcome when the ones in previous years did bugger all?"
11:09
<@TheWatcher>
Especially when they've timed it during Reading Week at many universities.
11:13
<@TheWatcher>
AUT is too scared to upset anyone to stage any effective action, frankly.
11:13
<@TheWatcher>
*UCU
11:13
<@TheWatcher>
whatever they're calling themselves this week
11:14 AverageJoe [evil1@Nightstar-dfmuir.ph.cox.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving]
11:15
<@Tarinaky>
I'm not entirely sure there's anyone university staff can upset who have any more power than they do.
11:15
<@Tarinaky>
It's not like the students have had much success with their own peacful (and not so peaceful) protests of late.
11:16 Sleep_Deprivation_Zombie is now known as Thalass
11:16
<@Tarinaky>
Normally these kinds of things are effective because businesses and quasi-government agencies have contracts/licenses that they have to meet or incurr fines and there's a fiscal penalty for not meeting them.
11:17
<@TheWatcher>
Or the action has a meaningful and noticable impact on the bottom line
11:17
<@Tarinaky>
Otherwise the staff're just creating more work for themselves to catch up the lost day while the business is happy to let the lost day come out in the wash.
11:17
<@TheWatcher>
Yep
11:18
<@TheWatcher>
Last truly successful strike we staged was back before sympathy strikes were made illegal, and we got the porters to walk out in sympathy.
11:18
<@TheWatcher>
That shut down entire campuses.
11:18
< Thalass>
sympathy strikes are illegal?
11:18
<@TheWatcher>
Yep
11:18
< Thalass>
geez
11:19
<@Tarinaky>
Thanks Robot Thatcher Obama.
11:19
<@Reiver>
it's how Thatcher broke the miner strikes
11:20
<@TheWatcher>
Actually, not quite
11:20
<@Tarinaky>
Forgive my ignorance, but does losing a day actually hurt a universities bottom line?
11:20
<@TheWatcher>
Thatcher restricted sympathy strikes pretty severely, but didn't outlaw them
11:20
<@TheWatcher>
John Major outlawed them
11:20
<@Reiver>
... can't help but notice an awful lot of the UK mining industry is dead now
11:20
<@Tarinaky>
I thought a lot of their funding would be... mostly independent of that and it's not like the Student's can demand back 1/260th of their Tuition Fee.
11:21
<@Tarinaky>
Reiver: It was 'dying' during the mining strikes, that's what the strikes were over.
11:23
<@Tarinaky>
Granted small scale collary operations are still profitable - and there's been some movement of alte to license out those kinds of operations - but nothing of the scale of the 1970s is possible short of the government burying money and inviting bids from private companies to dig it back up.
11:26
< Thalass>
heh
11:26
< Thalass>
So you're saying these resources are finite? Blasphemy!
11:27
<@JustBob>
I'd say it has more to do with the fact that these days, you pay half again the costs of mining in environmental mitigation.
11:27
<@TheWatcher>
Plus it's cheaper to import coal than pay miner's wages
11:28
<@Tarinaky>
Plus there's less dependence, in Britain, and less domestic demand for coal.
11:28
<@TheWatcher>
We still have a shitton of coal in the yorkshire and welsh coalfields, but raising it just isn't economically viable
11:28
<@Tarinaky>
Whereas back in the 70s this is how people heated their homes.
11:28
<@TheWatcher>
Yep
11:29
<@JustBob>
Tsk, tsk. The iron fist of economics, striking down an industry.
11:30
<@Tarinaky>
Off the top of my head China's the only country building coal plants en-mass and they have a lot more, cheaper, and more proximate sources of coal that they're not touching the sides of yet.
11:31
<@Tarinaky>
Maybe in the post-apocalyptic post-WW3/Fallout-esque world the only people who'd survive would be welsh and yorkshire coal miners and Sheffield would become the center of the new world order.
11:32
<@Tarinaky>
But until then~
11:32
<@JustBob>
Snort.
11:32
<@JustBob>
Fairly unlikely.
11:33
<@Tarinaky>
Everything is better with Steampunk :)
11:34
< Thalass>
hee
11:35 * TheWatcher drops https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFCuE5rHbPA on Tarinaky
11:35
<@Tarinaky>
That is the video I expected you to link to. I was not disappointed.
11:36
<@TheWatcher>
Jolly good.
11:37
<@Tarinaky>
I meant steampunk in the 'coal-fired steam engine as primary means of generating power' sense, rather than gears :p
11:39
<@Tarinaky>
People who insist it has to be set in or from the past are being silly and missing the point.
11:40
<@Reiver>
That song is the best song.
11:40
<@Reiver>
I am pleased the brits decided to share their injoke.
11:41
<@Reiver>
(I also agree with that song /so very much/, zomg.
11:41
<@Reiver>
Why do they screw that up so lazy ;_;)
11:41
<@Tarinaky>
http://imgur.com/NsQlc57
11:42
<@TheWatcher>
>.<
11:42
<@Tarinaky>
Note for the foreigners: In Britain 'high speed' roughly translates as 85mph on a clear day with no wind.
11:43
<@TheWatcher>
And no leaves on the line
11:43
<@Tarinaky>
Or snow. Or rain.
11:44
<@Tarinaky>
With perfectly spherical passengers in a vacuum.
11:49
<@Tarinaky>
In practice they'll probably run closer to 50 or 60 mph including the time taken for stops. Which is 10mph slower than the legal speed limit on the motorways and about 30mph slower than the speed everyone actually drives.
11:51
<@TheWatcher>
Yeah. It now takes 50 minutes to get the 15 miles into manchester from here on the train
11:52
<@Tarinaky>
All that said I am in favour of the high-speed rail link and the only people who oppose it are NIMBY. There are very good technical reasons why the trains are so slow in this country and no inexpensive fix.
11:54
< Syka_>
Tarinaky: hyperloop?
11:54
<@Tarinaky>
Hyperloop?
11:54
< Syka_>
elon musk's thing
11:54
<@Tarinaky>
I have no idea what you're talking about.
11:54
< Thalass>
whee hyperloop
11:54
< Syka_>
"A hyperloop would be, according to Musk, "an elevated, reduced-pressure tube that contains pressurized capsules driven within the tube by a number of linear electric motors.""
11:55
<@Tarinaky>
Ahh.
11:55
< Syka_>
"...a hyperloop would enable travel from the Los Angeles region to the San Francisco Bay Area in 35 minutes, meaning that passengers would traverse the proposed 354-mile (570 km) route at an average speed of just under 598 mph (962 km/h), and a top speed of 760 mph (1,220 km/h)."
11:56
< Syka_>
how's that for some speed
11:57
<@Tarinaky>
In terms of practicality and cynicism (and the lack of eagerness to fund any large building projects) the most likely speculative technology 'fix' to transportation are self-driving cars, flock-behavior research and automobile 'trains'.
11:57
< Thalass>
I think it would work, for what it's worth. Whether it's economically feasible is another story. But i don't care about monies, i just want things to be built.
11:57
<@Tarinaky>
Truthfully we need cheap/bulk passenger transportation more than fast.
11:57
<@Tarinaky>
And anything that allows the existing motorways to be used more efficiently is a boon.
11:58
< Thalass>
Tarinaky: Automobile trains? As in small carriages available on demand from a multitude of small stations? I like those. They'd be simpler than self driving taxis, due to the restricted routes and dedicated rail/road. Self driving cars are a must, though.
11:58
< Thalass>
I haaaate commuting. And an extra half an hour of sleep would be good.
11:59
< Syka_>
I have a bitch of a commute
11:59
< Syka_>
my bed is all the way over there
11:59
< Syka_>
:(
11:59
<@Tarinaky>
Thalass: Not much simpler than a self-driving taxi. Just smaller and lighter in weight since they don't need to bring a driver with them.
12:00 * Thalass nods
12:00 * Thalass shakesfist at Syka_
12:00
<@Tarinaky>
And probably a much smaller engine.
12:00 * Thalass ponders
12:00
<@Tarinaky>
Also has the advantage, over a train, that still get your 'bubble' of personal space that you get in a car.
12:01
<@Tarinaky>
Which removes the main problem with public transport - namely the public.
12:01
< Thalass>
There's no point doing it if it's not electric. Though i am biased. The mini train cars would be able to be powered from overhead wires, too. Not as feasible on the road.
12:01
< Syka_>
Thalass: that being said
12:01
< Syka_>
Thalass: it takes me an hour to get out of bed and in a state where I am operational
12:02
< Syka_>
:P
12:02
<@froztbyte>
ehhhh
12:02 * Thalass laughs
12:02
<@froztbyte>
that's a bit bad
12:02
<@froztbyte>
you probably need a better bed
12:02
<@froztbyte>
and a better diet
12:02
<@froztbyte>
:D
12:02
< Syka_>
well, no
12:02
<@Tarinaky>
The main benefit of it being electric is you don't need a mechanical transmission.
12:02
< Syka_>
froztbyte: have you /seen/ my hair
12:02
<@froztbyte>
Syka_: yes
12:02
<@Tarinaky>
Which means less weight, which means less power is needed etc...
12:02
<@froztbyte>
Syka_: why does that matter?
12:02
< Syka_>
it is impossible to get in and out of the shower in under 40 minutes :(
12:02
<@froztbyte>
burn it all off
12:02
<@froztbyte>
(also it is, you just need to level up)
12:03
< Thalass>
I still want my Tesla Model S, though. An autopilot would be good for the commute, but i like to stomp on the go pedal sometimes. :P
12:03
<@Tarinaky>
It's not like any of the existing transportation technologies are pure-electric.
12:03
< Syka_>
froztbyte: i put all my skill points in tea drinking
12:03
<@Tarinaky>
Even electric trains ultimately get their electricity from a fossil fuel plant.
12:03
< Syka_>
Tarinaky: Depends(TM)
12:03
<@Tarinaky>
And many of them have a diesel engine as well.
12:04
< Syka_>
Tarinaky: yeah the electricity source can be anywhere
12:04
< Syka_>
but, that's not the point
12:04
< Thalass>
Meh. The energy has to come from somewhere. Coal plants are still less polluting than petrol engines, as are diesel electrics compared to straight diesel. Though neither are better than wind/solar/magic powered etc.
12:04
< Syka_>
mass created electricity in a power plant is much less damaging per mW than car engines
12:05
< Syka_>
it's not the /best/, but
12:05
< Syka_>
you can also switch out, say, coal for solar
12:05
< Thalass>
i'm going to have a basement full of hobo slaves on exercise bikes to charge my car. >.>
12:05
<@Tarinaky>
But it's not a killer for the idea.
12:05
< Syka_>
without changing anything in the middle
12:05
< Syka_>
which is a huge benefit
12:05
<@Tarinaky>
It doesn't /require/ electric cars for the idea to provide a saving over regular cars.
12:05
<@Tarinaky>
Which is ultimately what you're competing with.
12:06
<@Tarinaky>
Any fuel saving is a fuel saving.
12:07
< Thalass>
true
12:07
< Thalass>
I just haaaate lining up for petrol, paying nearly $1.50/L for something i don't want, feeling like someone forced to line up for a shot of heroin or something.
12:07
< Syka_>
$1.50/L?
12:07
< Syka_>
lucky
12:08 * Syka_ eyes $1.93 at her local BP
12:08
< Thalass>
sheez is that for premium?
12:08
<@Tarinaky>
Oh how cute. The American is complaining about fuel prices to the Europeans :p
12:08
< Syka_>
Thalass: no, standard 85 octane
12:08
< RichyB>
Hey fuck you and your quid a litre.
12:08
< Syka_>
or 87
12:08
< Thalass>
Australian. But yes, i know it's up towards $2.50 or so over there
12:08
< Syka_>
whatever standard is
12:08
< Syka_>
the premium is nearer to $2
12:09
< Syka_>
BUT, I drive a moped
12:09
<@JustBob>
Waaah, waaaah, I pay $3.41 for 3.785 liters.
12:09
<@JustBob>
SO EXPENSIVE.
12:09
< Syka_>
which has a 50cc engine
12:09
<@froztbyte>
85 octane?
12:09
<@froztbyte>
lolzipants
12:09
< Syka_>
a 5L tank
12:09
<@froztbyte>
95, bitches
12:09
< Thalass>
moped win
12:09
< Syka_>
and gets 250km to said tank
12:09
<@froztbyte>
VROOM VROOM MOTHERFUCKERS
12:09
< Syka_>
I have spent $150 on fuel in ~20 months
12:09
< RichyB>
Syka_, nice. :)
12:09
<@froztbyte>
I wish I could put racing fuel in my scooter
12:09
< Syka_>
that is about one tank of my parents landcruiser
12:09
<@JustBob>
Snerk.
12:09
<@froztbyte>
but it'd probably explode
12:09
<@JustBob>
I was about to say. I spend that much every few days.
12:09
< Syka_>
they use diesel tho
12:09
< Thalass>
If the bastards would let me pass my license test, i'd be riding my motorcycle everywhere instead of the crusty old car. :P
12:10
< Syka_>
which is slightly different
12:10
< Syka_>
but yeah
12:10
< Syka_>
$8 a month on fuel or something
12:10
< Syka_>
shit's great
12:10
< Syka_>
it'
12:10
< Thalass>
booya
12:10
< Syka_>
its cost me more servicing it
12:10
< Syka_>
which you're supposed to do every 1000kms
12:10
< Syka_>
it's at 3900km now and I've done it twice (the 2nd at 3800km)
12:10
<@froztbyte>
jeez.
12:10
<@froztbyte>
I'm on 26000km or something ;p
12:11
< Syka_>
froztbyte: yes, well, you had a day job for most of your owning it :P
12:11
<@froztbyte>
Syka_: my day job was close for most of that time
12:11
<@froztbyte>
like, 8km
12:11
< Syka_>
dgfndg
12:11
< Syka_>
8km is not close
12:11
<@froztbyte>
driving to the office is not the main thing I did :P
12:12
<@froztbyte>
Syka_: 8km is pretty close
12:12
< Syka_>
8km is far away :<
12:12
<@froztbyte>
you have seen joburg, right?
12:12
< Syka_>
to the shops here is 3km
12:12
<@froztbyte>
shit's /wide/.
12:12
< Syka_>
and it's so longggg and I am like argghhh
12:12
< Syka_>
why is there a highwayyyy
12:12
<@froztbyte>
cute
12:12
< Syka_>
froztbyte: it'd be 2km, if my roads were sane
12:12
< Syka_>
every road in town is a curve
12:12
< Syka_>
every. single. one.
12:13
<@Tarinaky>
That's because the Earth is a sphere and not flat.
12:13
< Syka_>
Tarinaky: no I mean
12:13
< Syka_>
you have turned 70 degrees in 250m
12:13
<@Tarinaky>
I know, I was just being annoying ;P
12:13
< Syka_>
back where I used to live, there was the largest blind corner ever
12:14
< Syka_>
it was a good 700m of a turn that is just sharp enough to not see more than 30m or so
12:14
<@JustBob>
Hrm.
12:14
< Syka_>
and EVERYONE on that street had hedges
12:14
< Syka_>
I almost got hit by a car on that road :U
12:14
<@JustBob>
You know, I think the US love affair with cars correlates to the fact that we developed sprawlwise, instead of concentrated urban areas.
12:14
< Syka_>
actually, no, I did get hit by a car
12:14
<@JustBob>
I mean, the oldest towns in the US are, what, a fifth the age of London?
12:15
< Syka_>
some guy backed out of his driveway, which was flanked by two thick hedges
12:15
< Syka_>
JustBob: the US also has Places
12:15
< Syka_>
that are Far Away
12:15
<@JustBob>
Well, yes.
12:15
< Syka_>
a roadtrip is a thing in the US
12:15
<@Tarinaky>
Nah, everywhere developed sprawlwise.
12:15
< Syka_>
in the UK, everything is like 12 metres away
12:15
<@JustBob>
I live in a state with counties bigger than some /other states/, I note.
12:16
< Syka_>
brighton is 20 minutes down the road
12:16
<@Tarinaky>
It has more to do with the state of the postwar US and the automobile as a symbol of wealth and status.
12:16
< Syka_>
my local county/shire is 1/3rd the size of Germany
12:16
<@Tarinaky>
But conurbation is a thing everywhere.
12:16
<@JustBob>
(This actually gets amusingly weird; I live in Corvallis, and I can literally walk or bike everywhere. Driving's actually a hassle, most of the time.)
12:16
< Syka_>
and it contains 7,000 people
12:16
< Syka_>
:D
12:17
<@Tarinaky>
And a lot of continental cities are planned in the same way as American cities.
12:17
< Thalass>
I'm fairly sure the car is largely responsible for urban sprawl, yes.
12:17
< Syka_>
Tarinaky: cities are planned?
12:17
<@JustBob>
Yes.
12:17
< Syka_>
Tarinaky: from going to several, I find this incredibly hard to believe
12:17
<@JustBob>
You just have to bomb them flat, first.
12:17
<@Tarinaky>
Syka_: Paris, very famously.
12:17
<~Vornicus>
Syka_: you live in europe, don't you.
12:17
< Syka_>
hahahahaha
12:17
< Thalass>
in short term chunks, yes
12:17
< Syka_>
Vornicus: Australia!
12:17
< Syka_>
actually
12:17
< Syka_>
relatedly
12:17
<~Vornicus>
Weird.
12:17
< Syka_>
who knows about Darwin here
12:17
< Thalass>
Now there are two of us
12:17
< Syka_>
Vornicus: Perth is just a really shit city
12:17
<@froztbyte>
JustBob: that early?
12:18
< Syka_>
so what happened with Darwin
12:18
<@froztbyte>
london's been around for over 2000 years
12:18
< Thalass>
heh
12:18
<~Vornicus>
Thal: three
12:18
< Thalass>
woot
12:18
< Syka_>
in the 1940s, it got bombed to shit by the Japanese
12:18
< Syka_>
absolutely fucking flattened
12:18
< Syka_>
so they rebuilt
12:18
<@Tarinaky>
froztbyte: Arguably it may or may not be older than that under a different name. The evidence is just a bit weaker since the Celts weren't as good at book-keeping as the Romans.
12:18
< Syka_>
1974, Cyclone Tracy
12:18
< Thalass>
Rebuilt
12:18
< Syka_>
hit on Christmas Day
12:18
< Thalass>
hehe
12:18
<@froztbyte>
Tarinaky: yeah, something like that
12:19
< Syka_>
the smallest tropical cyclone ever
12:19
<@froztbyte>
it's been a place for a while
12:19
< Syka_>
like, I am fairly sure it has been the smallest cyclone ever
12:19
< Syka_>
it hit Darwin /directly/
12:19
<@JustBob>
froztbyte - If we ignore the native cities, the oldest US town that's been continuously inhabited was 1607 or something.
12:19
<@JustBob>
So, yes, about a fifth. :p
12:19
< Syka_>
they rebuilt
12:19
< Syka_>
they are due for another flattening
12:19
<@froztbyte>
JustBob: ah, interesting
12:19
< Syka_>
and after going to Darwin for holidays, they need it
12:20
< Thalass>
*snerk*
12:20
< Syka_>
because Darwin is a terrible place that is full of miserable people
12:20
<@froztbyte>
Syka_: become a terrist, blow 'em to the ground
12:20
< Thalass>
That's because it's too hot.
12:20
< Syka_>
because what else would you be if you lived in the NT
12:20
<@froztbyte>
Thalass: Tamber's also from weirdcountry
12:20
< Syka_>
other than absolutely miserable
12:20
<@froztbyte>
(if you were wondering about the third)
12:20
< Syka_>
but yeah
12:21
< Syka_>
Perth and my town has given me no confidence in city/town planning, anywhere
12:21
< Thalass>
on that topic: apparently a cache of explosives has been found a few hours south of Perth. (Australind area)
12:21
< Syka_>
Thalass: great
12:21
<@JustBob>
Heh. It depends on the city; Portland is fairly well-planned.
12:21
< Syka_>
maybe they can get rid of the fucking convention centre with it
12:21
<@JustBob>
Down to the UGB.
12:21
< Syka_>
and have some left to flatten that abnoxious bus station
12:21
< Syka_>
obnoxious?
12:21
< Thalass>
Even the new suburb i live in, in Perth, was planned by several children with ADHD. Large main road, roundabout, tiny residential street, roundabout, moar big road.
12:21
< Thalass>
wtf
12:22
< Syka_>
Thalass: haha
12:22
< Syka_>
theres some fuss over here
12:22
<@Tarinaky>
Who here is familiar with the 'Magic Roundabout'?
12:22
< Syka_>
Tarinaky: the UK roundabout?
12:22
<@Tarinaky>
Yes.
12:22
< Syka_>
aka The Roundabout Of Oh God Why?
12:22
< Syka_>
I have seen it
12:22
< Thalass>
I've seen the image. That must be some powerful drugs the planners were on
12:22
<@Tarinaky>
Why is very simple. It's actually brilliant.
12:22
< Syka_>
I have been hunting for it on Euro Truck Simulator 2
12:23
< Thalass>
hah
12:23
< Syka_>
Tarinaky: in Australia, that wouldbe an intersection
12:23
< Syka_>
because fuck traffic control
12:23
<@Tarinaky>
The traffic flows in two directions, around the large roundabout and the other way amongst the smaller roundabouts.
12:23
< Syka_>
god, now i have an urge to play cities xl again
12:23
< Syka_>
and make a city with not shit roads
12:23
< Syka_>
because every city I make ends up having a giant congestion place
12:23
<@Tarinaky>
And everything is clearly signposted and it's easy to get through if you just treat each roundabout as, well... a roundabout.
12:24
<@Tarinaky>
And if you don't know how to tackle a roundabout you shouldn't be driving in the UK.
12:24
< Syka_>
haha
12:24
< Thalass>
It's insanity. Why not use a single large roundabout. Or, if the traffic is that bad, intelligent traffic lights. Or bloody cloverleaf onrampy things. Anything but that hellmouth.
12:24
< Thalass>
:P
12:24
< Syka_>
we have roundabouts here
12:24
< Syka_>
in town
12:24
< Syka_>
no traffic lights, at all
12:24
< Syka_>
it's brilliant because all the asphalt is shoved up into mini hills
12:25
< Syka_>
so navigating it on a moped is like playing Lego Racers where everyone has an oil slick deployed
12:25
<@Tarinaky>
Thalass: The honest answer is none of them would work as well.
12:25
<@Tarinaky>
The Magic Roundabout is an amazing example of British Engineering :p
12:25
<@Tarinaky>
Works fine, looks nightmarish.
12:25
< Syka_>
oh man
12:25
<@Tarinaky>
Best not to think about it too closely~
12:25
< Thalass>
I fix British Aerospace Engineering aircraft for a living. I know all about "British Engineering" :P
12:26
< Syka_>
theres this great picture of British Engineering
12:26
< Syka_>
let me find it
12:26
<@Tarinaky>
Engineered in Britain, built in India :p
12:26
<@TheWatcher>
Thing that pisses me off about roundabouts are that their proponents claim that they "reduce congestion"
12:27
<@Tarinaky>
Yeah... no. The Magic Roundabout is by all accounts a special case.
12:27
<@TheWatcher>
I would dearly love to invite such people to try and get off the M67 at hattersley, or deal with several of the roundabouts on the junctions on M60
12:28
< Syka_>
sigh cant fins it
12:28
< Syka_>
it has like
12:28
< Syka_>
a ramp
12:28
< Syka_>
and then it did a 180 and ended in stairs down
12:28
< Syka_>
it was completely useless
12:29
< Syka_>
and absolutelt
12:29
< Thalass>
Roundabouts are good for medium traffic, no more than three lanes at most (clearly marked L S R lanes, too). After that traffic lights then cloverleaf things. Seriously, the road planners here need to go overseas and see how freeways are supposed to work
12:29
< Syka_>
sums up the stereotypical british attitude
12:29
< Thalass>
You aren't supposed to get stuck at a traffic lights when coming off or going on the freeway!
12:29 * TheWatcher wonders if he can find a picture of the Offramp To Nowhere on the Manchunian Way
12:30
<@Tarinaky>
It's worth noting that a lot of European motorways, like everything else in Europe, are older than their American equivalents.
12:30
< Syka_>
the bridge to nowhereeee
12:30 celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-90d86201.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #code
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12:34
<@TheWatcher>
http://goo.gl/maps/N9WVM - there we go
12:34
<@TheWatcher>
that one always amuses me when I see it. Really wish they'd remove the barriers >.>
12:35
<@JustBob>
http://ghostramps.blogspot.com/
12:35
<@Tarinaky>
What am I looking at?
12:38
<@TheWatcher>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mancunian_Way#Oddities
12:39 * TheWatcher eyes http://ghostramps.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/these-are-two-of-portlands-most-famous. html
12:40
<@Tarinaky>
Ahhh.
12:44 Vornicus [vorn@Nightstar-sn7kve.sd.cox.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving]
12:58
<@Tarinaky>
Who would I be best served poking with Control Theory questions?
12:58
<@Tarinaky>
Vorn?
12:59
<@Tarinaky>
JustBob?
13:04
<@Tarinaky>
(the Gods? >.<)
14:04
< RichyB>
Ask 'em anyway and *then* poke people.
14:04
<@Azash>
Syka_: Reminds me of this gift from Manchester http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44422000/jpg/_44422059_logo203.jpg
14:04
<@Azash>
(a logo for some bus service)
14:04
< RichyB>
I don't know any Control Theory but
14:05
< RichyB>
at the very least, phrasing your question in IRC might cause your brain to untangle it and figure out the answer :)
14:05
< Syka_>
azash: 404
14:05
< RichyB>
See "rubber duck debugging". :)
14:05
< Syka_>
wait
14:05
< Syka_>
no
14:06
< Syka_>
thats irssi connectbot being dumb
14:06
< Syka_>
also, haha
14:24
<@Tarinaky>
RichyB: Sadly my questions aren't very rubber-duck friendly.
14:24
<@Tarinaky>
I don't understand how Laplace and Z-transforms are useful.
14:27
<@Tarinaky>
I mean... that's not even a question :/
14:43
< RichyB>
I have no idea either. :)
15:10 Thalass is now known as thalasleep
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16:02
<@Azash>
http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/10/meet-badbios-the-mysterious-mac-and-pc-m alware-that-jumps-airgaps/
16:06
<@TheWatcher>
... that's pretty damned freaky
16:16
<@gnolam>
"Strangest of all was the ability of infected machines to transmit small amounts of network data with other infected machines even when their power cords and Ethernet cables were unplugged and their Wi-Fi and Bluetooth cards were removed."
16:16
<@gnolam>
Color me skeptical.
16:17
< Syka_>
gnolam: by power cords
16:17
< Syka_>
they mean running off battery
16:17
< Syka_>
also check 0xabadidea's twitter
16:17
< Syka_>
about the communication
16:17
< Syka_>
sonic audio communication is a Real Thing, it seema
16:18
<@gnolam>
In which case it's still sensationalist, which also justfies my ceasing reading the article at that point. :P
16:18
<@Azash>
Ruiu is credible and the malware in question is worrisome
16:18
< Syka_>
well, you can run ethernet through power lines :p
16:19
<@Azash>
And yeah afaik communicating using mic/speakers isn't a new thing either
16:27
<@froztbyte>
gnolam: the non-sensationalized version
16:27
<@froztbyte>
gnolam: is that it wasn't pulsecoding on power-line by varying power draw or some kind of shit like that
16:27 celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-90d86201.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [[NS] Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!]
16:27
<@froztbyte>
gnolam: but using internal speakers to send messages
16:28
<@froztbyte>
Syka_: sonic comms has been A Thing for/ever/ ;p
16:28
<@froztbyte>
even on computers
16:28
<@froztbyte>
how do you think modems work?
16:28
<@froztbyte>
(do you know what modem stands for?)
16:31
< Syka_>
uhhh
16:31
< Syka_>
i think so
16:31
< Syka_>
modulating something
16:33
<@froztbyte>
modulator demodulator
16:33
<@froztbyte>
modulation being the process of encoding bits into soundwaves
16:33
<@froztbyte>
and demodulation the inverse
16:33
< Syka_>
yeah
16:33
<@froztbyte>
"acoustic couplers" were places you could put your phone handset
16:33
< Syka_>
froztbyte: I /am/ old enough to remember 56k :<
16:33
<@froztbyte>
the first gen of near-field comms~!
16:34
<@froztbyte>
Syka_: remembering is a different thing from understanding or knowing
16:34
<@froztbyte>
Syka_: which is why I asked
16:34
< Syka_>
:p
16:34
< Syka_>
but yeah
17:22
<&ToxicFrog>
Ahahaha
17:23
<&ToxicFrog>
So, internal tools that need to display a tty progress bar often use a cute library that shows something like this:
17:23
<&ToxicFrog>
download 85% |Goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooogle.......| Time: 00:00:07
17:23
<&ToxicFrog>
Today, they are instead doing
17:23
<&ToxicFrog>
download 100% |Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaains| Time: 00:00:00
17:24
<@Tamber>
Hee
17:41
< Ogredude>
nice.
17:52 ^Xires is now known as Xires
18:04
<@froztbyte>
hey ToxicFrog
18:04
<@froztbyte>
may I bother you in a /query for a moment?
18:05
<@gnolam>
http://jakepoz.com/soviet_debugging.html
18:07
<&ToxicFrog>
froztbyte: rock on
18:20
<@froztbyte>
gnolam: that's fantastic
18:34
<@Tarinaky>
Wouldn't sticking a thick piece of dense debris along the side of the computer have fixed the problem?
18:34
<@Tarinaky>
Or at least, mitigated it somewhat.
18:35
<@Tarinaky>
(Obviously, I mean the technial problem - not the food safety problem)
18:48
< Stalker>
gnolam: Cute.
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18:49 Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: @jerith, @Alek, @JustBob, @Tarinaky, @PinkFreud, @Xon, @Orthia, @Typherix, @jeroud, @Attilla, (+4 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
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18:49
< Tarinaky_>
Stupid question: Are there any utilities designed to determine, by brute force, what a particular character set a section of English is encoded in?
18:49
< Tarinaky_>
Copying and pasting from this PDF yields a line of special characters.
18:49
< Tarinaky_>
I suspect foreign charactersets are involved.
18:50 froztbyt1 is now known as froztbyte
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18:50 Turaiel[Offline] [Brandon@Nightstar-bs56sr.resnet.mtu.edu] has joined #code
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18:50
< Tarinaky_>
Naturally, the channel dies as I ask my question so I will copy+paste so everyone sees it.
18:50
< Tarinaky_>
18:49 < Tarinaky_> Stupid question: Are there any utilities designed to determine, by brute force, what a particular character set a section of English is encoded in?
18:50
< Tarinaky_>
18:49 -!- Attilla [uid13723@Nightstar-ed0oqj.irccloud.com] has joined #code
18:50
< Tarinaky_>
18:49 < Tarinaky_> Copying and pasting from this PDF yields a line of special characters.
18:50
< Tarinaky_>
18:49 < Tarinaky_> I suspect foreign charactersets are involved.
18:51 Alek [omegaboot@Nightstar-qa936g.il.comcast.net] has joined #code
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19:11
<&ToxicFrog>
Tarinaky_: there are a few, none of which I have found to be at all useful~
19:11
<&ToxicFrog>
That said, I note that not all PDFs have text that match up with what displays on screen.
19:11
<&ToxicFrog>
This is especially common in scanned documents where it shows the scanned text but copy-pastes its best guess at the OCR of that text, which is often complete garbage.
19:11
<&ToxicFrog>
Run it through pdftext first, then analyze that.
19:12
< Tarinaky_>
The document was clearly made using LaTeX.
19:14
< Tarinaky_>
Anyway, it was a silly idea.
19:18 himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code
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19:33
<@Azash>
Tarinaky_: Write one
19:34
<@Azash>
Though a simpler approach would be to simply present it in different charsets and let the user pick the correct one
19:34 Orthia is now known as NSGuest46914
19:34 JustBob is now known as NSGuest3345
19:34
< Tarinaky_>
I am the user. I don't know what the correct charset is.
19:35
< Tarinaky_>
I only know the language/made up of latin characters.
19:35
<@Azash>
I'm referring to the program I suggested you write, I figured you are the user since you're asking about the problem
19:36
< Tarinaky_>
Oh, I see.
19:36
< Tarinaky_>
Anywya, it was a dumb idea because this is more work than just copying out the URL by hand.
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19:49
<@froztbyte>
http://www.reddit.com/r/talesfromtechsupport/comments/1pk90e/the_surrealism_of_m anaged_services_or_why_are_you/
19:52
<@Tamber>
"until the morons aligned" *snrk*
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22:55
<@Azash>
Remember kids, defensive coding: 23:35 <+MisfortuneCooki> and another channel's bot spontaneously banned and kicked everyone in the channel
22:56
<@Reiv>
... because?
22:56
<&McMartin>
IT IS MY WILL THAT LOGGED YOU IN HERE. IT WAS I WHO GAVE YOU YOUR OPS, THE ONLY BEAUTY IN THAT MEAT YOU CALL A BODY
23:02
<@TheWatcher>
Pffft
23:03
<@TheWatcher>
Reiv: because someone is a prat? >.>
23:04
<@Reiv>
Brilliant.
23:06 * AnnoDomini fondly recalls the time he tutored people by example in Applied Anti-Troll Measures In Dice Bots.
23:07 thalasleep is now known as Thalass
23:13
<@Reiv>
Man, I don't remember what that suite of countermeasures ended up like
23:43 * Thalass eyes the /still ongoing/ Senate vote recounts, ponders how one would make electronic voting secure
23:44 NSGuest46914 is now known as Orthia
23:45
<&McMartin>
By making it non-electronic~
23:45
<&McMartin>
In all seriousness, "electronic input that produces a paper-based ballot"
23:45
<@AnnoDomini>
By limiting the franchise down to an amount you can check by hand?
23:45 Orthia is now known as NSGuest10089
23:46
<&McMartin>
AnnoDomini: Scalable, hand-counted universal suffrage has been a largely solved problem for over a hundred years. You use a cell structure
23:46
<@AnnoDomini>
OK. In that case what's the problem?
23:47
<@Azash>
https://images.4chan.org/g/src/1383259491869.png
23:47
<@Azash>
The meeting of doom
23:47 NSGuest10089 [orthianz@Nightstar-avg.1ee.224.119.IP] has quit [[NS] Quit: Going dooooown...]
23:47 Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-avg.1ee.224.119.IP] has joined #code
23:47 mode/#code [+o Orthia] by ChanServ
23:47
<&McMartin>
AnnoDomini: Well, it is slow, and remains subject to various forms of corruption
23:47
<@AnnoDomini>
Azash: [x] Genuflect.
23:48 ktemkin is now known as ktemkin[work]
23:48
<@AnnoDomini>
McMartin: But you said it's a solved problem. That doesn't sound very solved!
23:48
<&McMartin>
The fundamental theory of voting is that you don't get all the nice properties
23:48
<&McMartin>
"Conspiracy within a precinct to systematically destroy ballots" isn't easy to defeat under any system, but with paper it's trivial to prove that it has happened.
23:49
<&McMartin>
"Slow" is occasionally considered a feature, so there's a specification problem~
23:49
<@Namegduf>
I think it's considered a feature by people with severe rationalisation problems.
23:50
<@Namegduf>
If you ignore them, and you should, on everything, it becomes sensible again.
23:50
<&McMartin>
Well, the price you pay for speed is "you had to trust the vote-counting program"
23:50
<&McMartin>
That's... not a price people are generally willing to pay
23:50
<@Namegduf>
That does not make speed a feature and you're enough of a developer to know it. :P
23:51
<@Namegduf>
Er being slow a feature
23:51
<@Namegduf>
It makes speed too expensive
23:51
<&McMartin>
(A midlevel that works is to have the electronic ballot generator make a human-readable variant and an OCRable variant and cross-check the two"
23:51
<&McMartin>
(The cross-check is slow but you get preliminary results fast)
23:51
<&McMartin>
(I am not actually convinced "you get preliminary results fast" is a feature)
23:52
<@Namegduf>
That's a distinct thing.
23:52
<@AnnoDomini>
Hmm. Are web-based bank account operations considered secure?
23:52
<@Namegduf>
Yes.
23:52
<&McMartin>
(Having a uniform electronically generated ballot has some advantages for anonymity, though, AIUI)
23:53
<&McMartin>
They aren't anonymous, though.
23:53
<@AnnoDomini>
Is anonymity desirable?
23:54
<&McMartin>
Very, very yes.
23:54
<@Namegduf>
They don't map in a variety of ways, the biggest one being that the banks have zero transparency and trust the government.
23:54
<&McMartin>
Secret ballot is not only desirable, it's nearly mandatory.
23:54
<@Namegduf>
Which is fine for banking. The government is not going to steal your money.
23:55
<@Namegduf>
And you can see your balance and that's all you care about, not the sum total of the system.
23:55
<&McMartin>
Without it you're vulnerable to enforcable vote-selling and direct voter coercion
23:55
<@Namegduf>
An equivalent system where you could see your vote only would be unsatisfactory. You'd have to trust the service to count the totals correctly because there's no transparency or vetting to the system.
23:55
<@AnnoDomini>
Namegduf: The government is already taking a lot of your money. But they probably won't stoop to hacking your bank account to get at it, no. :P
23:56
<@AnnoDomini>
(They'll tell the bank to freeze it instead while they bring you to court or something.)
23:57
<@AnnoDomini>
Hmm. What about decentralized cryptographic votes?
23:57
<@AnnoDomini>
Bitvote? :V
23:58
<&McMartin>
Hm
23:58
<&McMartin>
How is that different from just publishing all ballots for anyone to count?
23:58
<@Namegduf>
Not discussed in policy debates, in general, because ideas there are so basic.
23:59
<&McMartin>
(With a unique ID for each ballot so you can find your own, and the ID is presented to the voter as a destroyable physical artifact to ultimately ensure anonymity)
23:59
<@Namegduf>
Bitcoin itself is not a direct solution because suddenly the "51% of the processing power can conspire to control the system" issue becomes a breaking, huge practical problem.
23:59
<&McMartin>
Tracking "Voter X was present" needs to be done outside of the counting system
23:59
<@Namegduf>
Especially given that that's closer to "51% of the wealth" than "51% of the people"
--- Log closed Fri Nov 01 00:00:17 2013
code logs -> 2013 -> Thu, 31 Oct 2013< code.20131030.log - code.20131101.log >

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