code logs -> 2013 -> Mon, 07 Oct 2013< code.20131006.log - code.20131008.log >
--- Log opened Mon Oct 07 00:00:24 2013
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00:43
<&ToxicFrog>
This is creepy.
00:43
<&ToxicFrog>
Run program from source, works fine.
00:43
<&ToxicFrog>
Run from jar, output gets cut off.
00:43
<&ToxicFrog>
Add explicit (flush) at end of main, works from jar.
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02:25
< Ogredude>
bleh. this sucks.
02:25
< Ogredude>
I have absolutely no idea how to proceed.
02:25
< Ogredude>
so my only choice is to take a wild guess, fire an install task, wait 10 minutes for it to complete, and see if my change did what I hope it did. Lather, rinse, repeat.
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02:42
< Ogredude>
ok, I'm about 5 builds in, each one so far has failed
02:42
< Ogredude>
but at least they're failing in a different way each time
02:48
< Vorntastic>
What are you building?
02:53
<@Alek>
a skyscraper
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06:38
< ErikMesoy>
http://imgur.com/gallery/AsKAoFA Do we need input sanitization here? :P
06:39
<~Vornicus>
Not really.
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08:06
<@Tarinaky>
ErikMesoy: There is no reasonable 'sanitation' you can do short of verification, which probably costs far too much.
08:07
<@Tarinaky>
Unless the other person is legally obligated to use their legal name when signing up for your service it's also completely pointless.
08:07
<@Tarinaky>
And some jurisdictions have very weak notions of legal names.
08:09
<@Tarinaky>
The example is, fundamentally, a semantically valid name.
08:10
<@Azash>
I think he meant just checking for the length since the title is usually just mr/ms/mrs
08:10
<@Tarinaky>
Usually, but there are exceptions.
08:11
<@Tarinaky>
That said, pretty sure there's a civil offence for impersonating a peerage.
08:21
<@Tarinaky>
I should go make breakfast.
08:22
<@Tarinaky>
Umm, mischan.
08:22
< Syka_>
in soviet russia, breakfast does not exist
08:25
< xybre>
Except on dashcam.
09:10
< [R]>
Also there's a certain attention whore that has a single character name.
09:10
< [R]>
There was a huge blogpost on slashdot about names a while back actually.
09:10
< [R]>
... or was it codinghorror?
09:11
<~Vornicus>
http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/ This thing?
09:12
<@Tarinaky>
[R]: You mean the artist formerly known as the artist formerly known as Prince?
09:13
< [R]>
Tarinaky: yes
09:13
<@Tarinaky>
He's just called Prince now.
09:13
<@Tarinaky>
He changed back.
09:13
< Syka_>
the artist currently known as prince
09:13
< [R]>
Yes, that thing Vornicus
09:13
<@Tarinaky>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNoS2BU6bbQ << Vaguely relevant.
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09:46 * Namegduf is from the "It's a fucking identifier, if you don't have any one that's remotely conventional, *pick one*, and give me that, it doesn't matter so long as it's not too ambiguous"
09:47
<@Namegduf>
School of thought.
09:47
<@Namegduf>
"There exists an algorithm which transforms names and can be reversed losslessly." <- This sounds like an absolutely trivial encoding problem.
09:47
<@Namegduf>
"You mean, like, base64?"
09:48
< xybre>
gzip
10:04
<@Tarinaky>
Namegduf: There are certain circumstances (like applying for an Insurance quote) where that's not actually legal.
10:05
<@Namegduf>
Tarinaky: In some countries, perhaps. In the UK, no.
10:05
<@Namegduf>
Tarinaky: The UK has no required legal procedure for name changes. You need merely choose and go by it.
10:06
<@Namegduf>
Deed polls are required for certain government functions.
10:06
<@Tarinaky>
Sure. But if you give an insurance company a name which you don't go by...
10:06
<@Tarinaky>
That's a little more gray.
10:06
<@Namegduf>
Perhaps, but if you haven't used any other remotely conventional one anywhere I doubt it would be an issue.
10:07
<@Namegduf>
It probably is advisable to make one anglicised name, once, and use it consistently.
10:08
<@Tarinaky>
It's also advisable to just store a wide character string :p
10:08
<@Namegduf>
Well, it's not advisable to work with anything that calls itself a "wide character", because all the tech referring to wchars and such is awful.
10:08 * gnolam eyes that link.
10:09
<@Tarinaky>
True enough.
10:11
<@gnolam>
Yes, people handle names really badly, but at least half the items on that list are "you can find counterexamples, but only if you actively go look for them in cultures you won't have to deal with". I.e. of no practical importance.
10:16
<&McMartin>
Yes, the "things you assholes keep assuming about names" list actually proved the opposite of what it intended
10:16
<&McMartin>
To wit: It proves that having to deal with names universally is a hopeless task, so enforcing your personal cultural norms is basically fine
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12:50
<@Tarinaky>
Is it just me or am I learning absolutely nothing from this 'Intelligent Learning' module.
12:50
<@Tarinaky>
:/
12:59
<@Tarinaky>
Oh God every second just gets longer.
13:02
<@gnolam>
Is that the same kind of "Intelligent" as in "Intelligent Design"?
13:03
< Syka_>
intelligent learning: also known as a vaguely aimed brute force attack
13:08
<@Pandemic>
I liken it to the shot gun approach. Puch as much crap in the air at the same time as you can in the general direction of the target and eventually you will hit /something/
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13:40
<@Tarinaky>
gnolam: Intelligent Learning as in Computer Science
13:41
<@Tarinaky>
So Intelligent as in Artificial-
13:42
<@Tarinaky>
But yeah. It's just a wall of being talked at by a lecturer for whome English is not their first language while I was kindof hoping we might be learning some algorithms/techniques/applicables by now :/
13:42
<@Tarinaky>
Rather than providing endless lists of examples of where these techniques could be used and lamenting how easily Humans find these problems.
13:44
< AnnoDomi1i>
Artificial Stupidity, amirite?
13:44
<@Tarinaky>
Except with odd emphasis in unexpected places in the mid... Dle of words... Yes?
13:44
< AnnoDomi1i>
.
13:47
<@Tarinaky>
On an unrelated note: apparently the University of Newcastle has applied for a trademark on the Central University of Newcastle upon Tyne.
13:48
<@Tarinaky>
I am unsure how factually accurate this is however it is sufficiently amusing that I deem truth irrelevant.
14:13
< simon_>
hi. I've got a recursive function and I have convinced myself that I can rewrite it into a "closed form" so I avoid any recursion.
14:14
< simon_>
https://gist.github.com/sshine/401a9b092fc0833e9d98
14:14
< simon_>
but I lack a proof.
14:14
< simon_>
can anyone help me construct such a proof?
14:15
< simon_>
I want to show that findMax(n) = findMax(n+8) for n > 2
14:15
< simon_>
I suppose this smells of induction... I'm not sure.
14:19 * simon_ starts tinkering and asks another question when he is stuck.
14:26
< simon_>
base case: P(3): fmax(3) = fmax(3+8) => max(fmin(8), fmin(7), fmin(6)) => 0 = 0 (by simple expansion of the recursive definition)
14:28
< simon_>
inductive case: P(n) => P(n+1): fmax(n+1) = fmax(n+8+1) => max[fmin(n-5+1), fmin(n-4+1), fmin(n-3+1)] = max[fmin(n+9-5), fmin(n+9-4), fmin(n+9-3)]
14:28
< simon_>
=> max[fmin(n-4),fmin(n-3),fmin(n-2)] = max[fmin(n+4),fmin(n+5),fmin(n+6)]
14:29
< simon_>
my initial thought is that I should take advantage of the fact that P(n) holds.
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17:13 * AnnoDomi1i pokes froztbyte.
17:17
< Syka_>
he is currently being angry at wine
17:20
< AnnoDomi1i>
Does this reduce the likelihood that he'll answer my questions?
17:20
<@Tarinaky>
It appears so, it's certainly reducing the likelihood that you'll ask it.
17:21
< AnnoDomi1i>
Curiously enough, I had already asked, last night.
17:21
<@Tarinaky>
Well mea culpa then.
17:23
< AnnoDomi1i>
I'll restate just to be clear.
17:24
< AnnoDomi1i>
froztbyte: Which parts of http://slexy.org/view/s20qe3XA4W need to be modified to do what I need to do? (Also, which of those packages is actually used by the code below?)
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19:09
< simon_>
if I have a function that takes the product of a list of numbers, what should the product of the empty list be?
19:10
< simon_>
(I'm settling a dispute here, just looking for backing voices:)
19:10
<@celmin>
1
19:10
<@celmin>
An empty product is 1.
19:10
< simon_>
does anyone else agree/disagree?
19:13
< AnnoDomi1i>
I'd probably do it as 1 too, but if you're feeling anal-retentive, you could have it return a NULL-error thingy.
19:13
< ErikMesoy>
I sort of say 1 for defining things like 0! = 1 for convenience
19:15
< simon_>
AnnoDomi1i, that's very diplomatic. or 'int option' as it'd be in Standard ML:
19:15
< simon_>
s/:/./
19:18
<@celmin>
How do I make "A ::= B | B ; A" non-left-recursive? Would it just be "A ::= A T" and "T ::= | ; B T"?
19:18
< AnnoDomi1i>
I think 1 is more useful because it is an output that is of the same kind as for valid lists.
19:21
< simon_>
celmin, "A ::= A T" is left-recursive in A.
19:21
< simon_>
celmin, are you asking how to make "A ::= B | B ; A" unambiguous?
19:21
< simon_>
(I assume here that | is a part of BNF syntax and ';' is a literal.
19:22
<@celmin>
Agh.
19:22
<@celmin>
Yes I am.
19:22
<@celmin>
Oh, I meant "A ::= B T"
19:22
< simon_>
celmin, and you want to disambiguate this and also make it left-factorized? (i.e. avoid left-recursion)
19:22
<@celmin>
Yeah
19:23
< simon_>
so your suggestion is "A ::= B T" and "T ::= ε | ; B T"?
19:23
<@celmin>
Yeah.
19:24
<@celmin>
Was too lazy to type the epsilon. >_>
19:24
< simon_>
yeah, that solves it.
19:24
<@celmin>
Yay.
19:24
<@celmin>
I suppose this means I do understand this.
19:25
< simon_>
first course in compilers / formal languages?
19:26
<@celmin>
Compilers, yes.
19:26
<@celmin>
I think formal languages might be next term, the course title is "Foundations of Computing".
19:36
<&ToxicFrog>
simon_: concur that it should be 1; the identity value for product (and thus the seed value for (fold *) is 1.
19:37
<&ToxicFrog>
Compilers before formal languages? o.O
19:38
<@celmin>
Not entirely sure if formal languages is the focus of the second course.
19:38
<@celmin>
They're both 4th-year and don't have each other as prerequisites.
19:38
<@celmin>
that is, neither has the other as a prerequisite.
19:43
<&ToxicFrog>
Here, it used to be one third year course covering formal languages in the first half and compilers in the second; they later split it into a third year course for formal languages, and fourth year for compilers with formal languages as a prereq.
19:51
< AnnoDomi1i>
SDL1. How do I reposition the application window? I want to make it either centered or just in some specific spot, because it keeps popping up partly occluded by my taskbar.
19:57 Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz]
20:20
<@Tarinaky>
if I have a function that takes the product of a list of numbers, what should the product of the empty list be?
20:20
<@Tarinaky>
<< NAN
20:20
<&McMartin>
1.
20:21
<&McMartin>
The result of an empty list should be the identity for the operation upon it.
20:21
<&McMartin>
So, 0 if you're summing it, 1 if your multiplying it.
20:21
<@Tarinaky>
Is there any particular reason you say that?
20:21
<@celmin>
0!
20:22
<@celmin>
x^0
20:22
<&McMartin>
Tarinaky: Well, uh, 50 years of tradition, I guess?
20:22
<@celmin>
Both of those are empty products. Both of them are 1.
20:22
<&McMartin>
Also, yeah, imagine a list of n xs, the result of which is x^n
20:22
<&McMartin>
It makes for a trivial translation into a command like fold_left or fold_right
20:23
<&McMartin>
Which takes an initial value, and if the list is empty, returns that initial value
20:23
<@Tarinaky>
I see.
20:24
<&McMartin>
> (apply * '())
20:24
<&McMartin>
1
20:24
<@celmin>
Pretty sure there's a mathematical reason why it has to be 1.
20:24
<@celmin>
Something you can prove.
20:25
<@Tarinaky>
Pretty sure it'd just be notational convention.
20:25
< AnnoDomi1i>
If you define a product to be 1[*$every_element_of_list] then an empty list fed into it logically returns 1.
20:26
<@Tarinaky>
That makes sense.
20:26
<&ToxicFrog>
Like I said, 1 is the identity value for multiplication.
20:27
<@Tarinaky>
I never said I was smart.
20:27
< AnnoDomi1i>
My opinion actually comes from having encountered a WTF with mIRC's $mid().
20:28
<@Tarinaky>
Here's a more fun question. Sign(0) = ?
20:28
< AnnoDomi1i>
It takes three arguments, a string, an int M and an int N. It normally returns a substring of N starting at M.
20:28
<@Namegduf>
Neither.
20:29
< AnnoDomi1i>
Except if N is 0. Then it returns something like the length of the string.
20:29
<@Namegduf>
0 is neither positive nor negative.
20:29
<@celmin>
sgn(0) = 0
20:29
< AnnoDomi1i>
Which threw me because I used it in a loop assuming that a substring of length 0 would be an empty string.
20:29
<@Tarinaky>
There are three definitions in 'the wild', 1, 0 and NAN.
20:29
<@celmin>
1 is incorrect
20:29
<@celmin>
sgn(0) sgn(1)
20:30
< ErikMesoy>
I disagree
20:30
< ErikMesoy>
Some systems have 0 (default to interpreting as +0) and -0
20:30
<@celmin>
NaN, I dunno, maybe.
20:30
< ErikMesoy>
Sign(0) is positive here
20:30
<&ToxicFrog>
I note that some numeric representations draw a distinction between +0 and -0.
20:30
<@celmin>
Oh sure, if you want to have a negative zero, fine.
20:30
<&McMartin>
The signum function, as far as I know, is *defined* as "-1 when negative, 0 when 0, 1 when positive"
20:30
<&ToxicFrog>
In which case sgn(0) == sgn(1) ~= sgn(-1) == sgn(-0)
20:30
<@Namegduf>
AIUI floating point is not considered authoritative on how things are normally defined.
20:30
<&McMartin>
Though I guess I'm used to signum being defined on Z, not R.
20:31
< ErikMesoy>
What are you trying to do? It strikes me that this may depend somewhat on context.
20:32
<@Tarinaky>
I'm not trying to do anything. I just wanted an argument.
20:32
<@Namegduf>
Anyways. The sum of an empty list is 0.
20:32
< ErikMesoy>
e.g. if you want to withdraw X dollars and Y cents, the bank should be checking that X is non-negative (so 0 is legal and in the same category as 1)
20:32
<@Namegduf>
This is because 0 is the identity for addition.
20:32
< AnnoDomi1i>
Tarinaky: You got it!
20:32
<@Namegduf>
a+0 = 0
20:33
<@Namegduf>
The product is 1, because 1 is the identity for addition.
20:33
<@Namegduf>
a*1 = a
20:33
<@Namegduf>
Er, a + 0 = a
20:33
<@Namegduf>
I need to go sleep
20:33
<@celmin>
Heh
20:33 * ErikMesoy codes a math where a+0=0.
20:33
<@Tarinaky>
ErikMesoy: No need to, just define the smallest technically correct vector space over R.
20:33
< AnnoDomi1i>
In this math, is a the zero?
20:33
<@Namegduf>
The identity is the only valid value you can treat as an "initial" value before you start applying the list's values
20:33
<@Tarinaky>
{0}.
20:33
<&McMartin>
Yay, Z_1!
20:34
< AnnoDomi1i>
Or perhaps the + symbol means multiplication?
20:34
< ErikMesoy>
AnnoDomi1i: ALL THE NUMBERS are zero.
20:34
< AnnoDomi1i>
:gasp:
20:34
<@Tarinaky>
ErikMesoy: So the smallest technically valid vector space over R it is then :p
20:35 * ErikMesoy fucks around with the additive and multiplicative identity elements, having just taken group and ring theory the past semester.
20:35
<@Namegduf>
This also preserves the property that removing an element from the list divides the list by it, even when it's a list of a single element
20:35
<@Namegduf>
I mean, divides the product of the list
20:35
<@celmin>
Divides the product by i
20:35
<@celmin>
Ninjas
20:35
<@celmin>
^it
20:36
<@Namegduf>
It also preserves the property that adding the identity to the list does nothing
20:36
<&McMartin>
AnnoDomi1i: Traditionally, if you're only defining one operation, you use *, not +, but if the operation is commutative, then you can call it +.
20:36
<@Namegduf>
For the operation that it is the identity for
20:36
<&McMartin>
If you're using + and * *at the same time* the minimum requirement to be making sense is typically for + to be commutative and for the distributive law to work.
20:36
<@Namegduf>
Adding 0s won't change the sum, adding 1s won't change the product, even if it was previously empty.
20:36
<@Namegduf>
That kind of thing.
20:37
<&McMartin>
Presence of inverses for * is generally optional
20:37
<&McMartin>
Yeah
20:37
<@celmin>
Z doesn't have inverses for * anyway.
20:37
<&McMartin>
The formal study of this stuff is called "abstract algebra", and the smallest thing that "kinda looks like" a normal operation is called a group.
20:37
<&McMartin>
celmin: Indeed, which is why groups and rings don't need them
20:38
< AnnoDomi1i>
McMartin: OBTW, how do I change the position of a SDL1 window?
20:38
<@celmin>
Groups only have one operation as I recall.
20:39
< simon_>
McMartin, is a 'normal operation' something formal, or did I not read this conversation carefully enough?
20:39
<@celmin>
It's not something formal.
20:42
< simon_>
I'm not sure what's implied, then. both monoids, semigroups and groupoids are less strict, so in some sense, I suppose, smaller..
20:46
<&McMartin>
They are, but they're also "weird"
20:46
<&McMartin>
The algebra on groups can be readily mistaken for algebra on integers or rationals.
20:51 celmin [celticminst@1AB00B.855209.73FD43.A25BB5] has quit [[NS] Quit: And lo! The minstrel departs, to spread the music to the masses!]
20:58 * simon_ is collecting a list of 'cheaters' on the introductory programming course. it's growing quite fast.
20:59
< simon_>
unfortunately, the course responsible doesn't want to do the paperwork against them
20:59
<&ToxicFrog>
Oh dear.
20:59
<&ToxicFrog>
how are you detecting it?
20:59
< simon_>
they hand in identical assignments, or they hand in perfect assignments and act as complete retards in class.
20:59
< AnnoDomi1i>
Did you apply the Dehnadi-Bornat test to them?
21:00
< simon_>
e.g. someone defined a flawless fixpoint-combinator, and he couldn't make the function 'fun addNewline s = s ^ "\n"' after two hours.
21:00
< simon_>
AnnoDomi1i, no! what's that?
21:00
<&ToxicFrog>
simon_: aka the sheep/goats test
21:00
<&ToxicFrog>
That one's designed to be applied to people with no prior programming experimence, though.
21:00
< simon_>
interesting!
21:00
< AnnoDomi1i>
http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/paper1.pdf
21:01
< simon_>
wow
21:01
< ErikMesoy>
^ as composition operator? What language is this?
21:01
< simon_>
ErikMesoy, string concatenation, Standard ML.
21:01
<&ToxicFrog>
(also, they've gone back and forth on the predictive power of the test - there are a number of follow-up tests)
21:01
< simon_>
interesting
21:01
<&ToxicFrog>
(I believe the current conclusion is "it's measuring something but we aren't entirely sure what")
21:01
< simon_>
I was hoping it was a plagiarism detection tool. ;)
21:01
<&ToxicFrog>
(er, follow-up papers, not tests)
21:02
< AnnoDomi1i>
ToxicFrog: Are these follow-ups online?
21:02
<&ToxicFrog>
AnnoDomi1i: yes - they're on Dehnadi's website, IIRC
21:02
<&ToxicFrog>
Should be googeable
21:03
< AnnoDomi1i>
Ah, I think I found them.
21:32
< simon_>
interesting.
21:32
< simon_>
at my uni, we ask people "On a scale of 0-3, how good are you at programming?" and then people answer somewhat randomly.
21:35
<@iospace>
I'd say 11
21:35
<@iospace>
:P
21:35
< AnnoDomi1i>
Pff.
21:36
< AnnoDomi1i>
(I'd say 1.)
21:37
< [R]>
2.
21:42
<@gnolam>
simon_: for real?
21:42
<@gnolam>
(Dunning-Kruger powers, activate!)
21:43
< [R]>
Really the only valid answers become 0, 1 and 2. With "3" being 0 or 1.
21:43
< AnnoDomi1i>
(I seem to recall that D-K only really applies to Americans.)
21:44
< [R]>
Nope
21:44
< AnnoDomi1i>
Or at least Americans suffer more from it.
21:44
< [R]>
Possibly.
21:45
< [R]>
source.txt is not from an American. Though the author is quite certain it's the greatest thing and gets pissed at Google for not adopting it.
21:46
< [R]>
Though there's the possibility he's just a very focused troll.
21:46
< AnnoDomi1i>
source.txt was what?
21:46
< [R]>
SSDS.
21:46
< [R]>
That VB5 program that crashes on first run.
21:46
< AnnoDomi1i>
Ha.
21:46
<@gnolam>
?
21:46
< [R]>
(It crashes because it doesn't have the supplimentory files, but any run will generate any of those files that are missing)
21:47
< AnnoDomi1i>
(Sounds like Aurora 4x.)
21:50
<@gnolam>
SSDS?
21:51
< [R]>
http://www.telusplanet.net/public/stonedan/source.txt
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22:04
<@Azash>
Has anyone here ever tried writing a program that meets the crash-only paradigm?
22:04
< [R]>
?
22:16
<&ToxicFrog>
[R]: ...is there somem greater context to this I can reaD?
22:17
< [R]>
ToxicFrog: search "the daily wtf" forums SSDS
22:18
< [R]>
Warning: 1000+ threads.
22:18
< [R]>
1000+ post*
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--- Log closed Tue Oct 08 00:00:39 2013
code logs -> 2013 -> Mon, 07 Oct 2013< code.20131006.log - code.20131008.log >

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