| --- Log opened Thu Feb 28 00:00:35 2013 |
| 00:43 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
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| 00:58 | < mac> | For developing websites is it customary to have your clients test the site and alert you to errors? (large custom application sites) |
| 00:59 | <&McMartin> | Are you using euphemisms to describe using production as your test platform, or do you mean "shipping favored customers the release candidate to make sure that it's going to work for them before going gold"? |
| 01:02 | < mac> | using production as your test platform |
| 01:04 | < RichyB> | That's customarily called "using production as your test platform". |
| 01:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | And in that case it depends on what you mean by "customary" |
| 01:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | Is it a good idea: hell no |
| 01:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | Do people do it way too often anyways: yep |
| 01:05 | <&McMartin> | Shipping customers prebuilds is relatively common and it's a good idea in inverse proportion to the tendency of those customers to deploy the prototype instead of waiting for you to go gold |
| 01:06 | < RichyB> | The sane, principled thing to do is to have a second copy of your entire deployment. Call that one the "QA environment". You check your changes into source control, deploy from source control into the QA environment, test everything, and then once you've confirmed that everything works in the QA environment, deploy the same code into production. |
| 01:07 | < mac> | Can you explain what it means to go "gold" |
| 01:07 | < JustBob> | Live release. |
| 01:07 | < RichyB> | Letting a customer see your QA environment so that they can participate in testing alongside you is perfectly sensible. |
| 01:07 | <@Haeroe> | Can anyone here explain CFB in a way that is not overcomplicated? |
| 01:08 | < mac> | should you actively look for bugs in you QA environment? |
| 01:08 | < RichyB> | Yyyyyyes. |
| 01:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | mac: the point at which you release the product to manufacturing (or flip the switch that makes it live) - the term, I believe, comes from the "gold master" used in CD pressing. To "go gold" means that you have created the gold master and are now mass-producing CDs of your software. |
| 01:08 | < JustBob> | Haeroe - It's a really horrific sort of OpAmp? |
| 01:09 | < JustBob> | I could go dig my textbook out and find the section on CFB opamps. |
| 01:09 | < RichyB> | If you're giving compiled software to your customers, you do QA on pre-release builds. If you're hosting a service for them, you do QA in a duplicate of your live hosting environment. |
| 01:10 | < mac> | But do you rely on them to do most of the testing? |
| 01:10 | < RichyB> | "Running and maintaining a website" definitely falls under "hosting a service". |
| 01:10 | <@Haeroe> | JustBob: Stream cipher thing |
| 01:10 | <@Haeroe> | Similar to CBC |
| 01:11 | < RichyB> | mac: that just depends on what contract you have with that client. |
| 01:11 | < JustBob> | Haeroe - Ah, no idea, then. I only know CFB in the terms of current feedback opamps. Or computational firearms ballistics. |
| 01:11 | < mac> | whats industry standard? |
| 01:11 | <@Haeroe> | Right, thanks anyway |
| 01:12 | < RichyB> | In industry where you have an actual team, you pay some QA engineers full-time to hunt for bugs in pre-release builds (+ releases to QA environment) |
| 01:13 | < mac> | RichyB : can that group of QA engineers also be the programmers? (in some cases) |
| 01:13 | < RichyB> | In industry, your customer will *also* want to test the product before it ships live - but you generally let the QA engineers bang on code first before the customer sees it, so that the most embarrassing bugs won't make it to the people whom you are trying to impress. |
| 01:14 | < RichyB> | In industry, the part of testing where the customer is kicking the tyres is generally called "user acceptance testing" or UAT. |
| 01:14 | < RichyB> | mac: Can be, but it's a really bad idea to try to QA your own work. |
| 01:15 | < RichyB> | Particularly with things like UIs - programmers will tend to write a UI, and then use it in exactly the manner that they were thinking of when they wrote it. |
| 01:15 | < mac> | so if there is a programmer and a designer, would it be a bad idea to have the designer do the QA instead of the programmer? |
| 01:16 | < RichyB> | Meanwhile, the UI that's been written has (accidental) affordances for all kinds of different workflows which should work but don't, because the programmer didn't think of them and hasn't tried them. |
| 01:16 | < JustBob> | Honestly, the best way to QA is to have a completely computer illerate 47-year old White Anglo-Saxon Protestant female with a degree in either business or liberal arts do your testing for you. |
| 01:17 | < RichyB> | How many of you kids are there? We have a formal QA dept of one person here and about 3 full-time programmers. |
| 01:17 | < RichyB> | JustBob: hrmn, but there's a difference between UX testing on the uninitiated and having someone search for obscure broken edge cases. :) |
| 01:19 | < JustBob> | RichyB - Well, there is that. I just find that the secretary or middle-manager is the one who's bored enough to completely break a given piece of software. :p |
| 01:19 | < mac> | Ok well i would love to continue this conversation later, I have to get going, Thanks guys |
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| 01:20 | < JustBob> | That was strange. |
| 01:24 | <@Reiv> | ... was he really that clueless, or something? I don't mean that rudely. |
| 01:25 | <@Reiv> | But I got the feeling he knew way too much to /not/ know the part he was querying. |
| 01:26 | < RichyB> | Sounds like an amateur(*) starting to work professionally(*) for the first time. |
| 01:27 | < RichyB> | * "amateur" and "professional" do not denote technical talent, brains or competence. They just denote whether or not money is changing hands, and hence whether practices appropriate for contract work are relevant. |
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| 03:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | Heeeey |
| 03:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | The main bottleneck is decompression, apparently |
| 03:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | Because loading an uncompressed form of ARCHIVE.DAT takes less than a second. |
| 03:22 | <@Haeroe> | Loading time or the algorithm itself? |
| 03:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | Going from "file on disk" to "all file contents processed and in memory" takes <1s if none of the contents are compressed, and ~20s if they are. |
| 03:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | So, the decompression algorithm. |
| 03:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | I may want to rewrite it in C. |
| 03:27 | <@Reiv> | Any obvious bottlenecks? |
| 03:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | I suspect the main issue here is that it's a straightforward translation of an algorithm originally implemented in C, which means lots of string slicing and mutation operations. |
| 03:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which are basically free in C but imply the creation of lots of temporary strings in Lua. |
| 03:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | I haven't profiled it, but I'd guess that's where the main performance hit comes fr. |
| 03:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | *from. |
| 03:29 | <&Derakon> | How good is Lua's profiling support? |
| 03:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | In 5.1? Pretty good. In 5.2? No idea. |
| 03:30 | <&Derakon> | Presumably at least as good. |
| 03:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | Well, not necessarily, because the profiling is all third-party tools and if they relied on version-specific features... |
| 03:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | I mean, I can write my own pretty easily if it comes to that |
| 03:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | But honestly, I'd want to rewrite the decompressor first anyways, because idiomatic C looks goddamn ugly when ported into Lua. |
| 03:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | And then break out the profiler if it's still significantly slow. |
| 03:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | (at the time I wrote it, I was more concerned with getting something correct than something that looked good, and exactly porting the C implementation was the easiest way to accomplish that |
| 03:33 | <@Reiv> | Man, I know that feeling~ |
| 03:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ok, yeah, it basically creates 2n-1 temporary strings where n is the number of bytes in the decompressed data. |
| 03:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | That is not going to do performance any favours. |
| 03:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | That's about a million temporary objects just for the tile maps. |
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| 05:21 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: That sounds like repeated concatenation - does Lua have an equivalent of Java's StringBuilder? |
| 05:32 | < Syk> | man, I thought I couldn't fail so hard at something |
| 05:32 | < Syk> | then I started learning German |
| 05:33 | <&Derakon> | You could also, I suppose, work with an array of ASCII codes instead of a string~ |
| 05:36 | < JustBob> | Syk - I thought that about german. Then I started learning x86 ASM. :p |
| 05:37 | < JustBob> | And now, slep. |
| 05:37 | < Syk> | heh |
| 05:38 | < Syk> | then again, I've been doing it for like... a day |
| 05:38 | < Syk> | so if I can't say anything more than 'I like this apple' then that's to be expected |
| 05:39 | < Syk> | ("Ich mogen der Apfel" if I remember correctly) |
| 05:40 | < Syk> | (then again that might be 'I am a jelly donut', I'm really bad at German) |
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| 05:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: yes, and yes but I'm not using it here because of the way this is a direct port of the C implementation. |
| 05:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | And now, slep. |
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| 06:59 | <~Vornicus> | http://www.strangehorizons.com/2004/20040405/badger.shtml |
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| 07:29 | <@froztbyte> | I'm guessing this is because of http://i.imgur.com/vr86AGU.jpg |
| 07:42 | <~Vornicus> | froztbyte: you would be correct. |
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| 10:15 | <~Vornicus> | Right about now I wish I could see about ten times as much code on the screen. |
| 10:15 | < RichyB> | You can expand by ~50% by getting a 1920x1080 screen and turning it 90? sideways. |
| 10:16 | < RichyB> | Short of that... paper? |
| 10:16 | < RichyB> | cscope? |
| 10:17 | <~Vornicus> | I have such a screen except that sideways ain't happening |
| 10:18 | <@TheWatcher> | I keep meaning to set up a portrait screen, it just always seems more hassle than its worth |
| 10:20 | < Syk> | well um |
| 10:20 | <@froztbyte> | it is a bit of a pain to do, yes |
| 10:20 | < Syk> | i know of Samsung screens that have it built in |
| 10:20 | < Syk> | you just... turn the screen |
| 10:20 | < Syk> | ...and it's done |
| 10:20 | < Syk> | but you might want to get an IPS monitor for it, as otherwise the viewing angles are so fucked |
| 10:21 | <@TheWatcher> | I have an iiyama screen that can do it |
| 10:22 | <@froztbyte> | there's dell screens that have it, too |
| 10:22 | <@froztbyte> | some dell monitors oddly don't fall into "oh hell, it's a dell" |
| 10:22 | <@TheWatcher> | Mut I'm set up with two screens next to each other, so rotating it means moving the second screen, clearing stuff out of the way, messing with the iiyama screen to rotate it, then putting stuff back... and then reversing the process if I want to play a game |
| 10:23 | <@TheWatcher> | *but |
| 10:23 | <~Vornicus> | Until I moved across the country my monitor was a 19" Dell CRT |
| 10:25 | <~Vornicus> | Which we got in 1998 along with the rest of a computer and a corner desk. Then I put the monitor on the desk and the desk /noticeably sagged/ |
| 10:25 | <~Vornicus> | Turns out the monitor weighed in at 70 lbs and the desk was rated for 55. |
| 10:25 | <@TheWatcher> | Heheh |
| 10:25 | <~Vornicus> | But after 15 years it was still going strong. |
| 10:26 | <@froztbyte> | iswydt |
| 10:27 | <~Vornicus> | I have often complained - at length - about how terrible the viewing angles for LCD monitors are for me, they're like 5 degrees. |
| 10:27 | <~Vornicus> | This thing being a CRT didn't have that issue. |
| 10:29 | < Syk> | i have a delicious IPS |
| 10:29 | < Syk> | and two less-delicious TN |
| 10:30 | <~Vornicus> | from what I can tell most lcd monitors have a viewing angle sweet spot that would put me out in the hall. |
| 10:30 | <~Vornicus> | It's not easy to use a 20" LCD from 15 feet away, though |
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| 10:59 | <~Vornicus> | also, Syk: at least you're not a meat popsicle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8pC8iYQSXI |
| 11:02 | < Syk> | lols |
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| 13:44 | | * TheWatcher eughs, can't get into the right headspace to deal with this code |
| 13:49 | < Syk> | try the left one then |
| 13:50 | <@TheWatcher> | ah-hah |
| 13:52 | < Syk> | 'two wrongs don't make a right, but two rights make a left!' |
| 13:53 | < RichyB> | *Three* lefts make a right. ^_^ |
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| 14:21 | < Syk> | or thaty |
| 14:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | Hmm. |
| 14:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | In saved games, chunk 4001 contains player information. Coordinates, game settings, probably plot flags and inventory information as well. |
| 14:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | In ARCHIVE.DAT, chunk 4001 is all 0s. |
| 14:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | At some point when starting a new game, it gets filled in with default settings, which I know can't be all 0 because that would leave the player floating in deep space with no implants. |
| 14:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | But I can't figure out where those default settings are taken from. |
| 14:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | I will be sad if they're hard coded in CDSHOCK.EXE. |
| 14:41 | <@froztbyte> | oh god |
| 14:42 | <@froztbyte> | that's a filename I haven't seen in *years* |
| 14:42 | <@Tarinaky> | Start a new game, get a byte string from chunk 4001 and perform some kind of search for it? |
| 14:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: that's what I'm doing, searching other files for the four-byte sequence that is the starting player coordinates. |
| 14:43 | <@Tarinaky> | Also: I now have a deadtree copy of the OpenGL Superbible for a month. |
| 14:43 | <@Tarinaky> | I have no idea what to do with it :/ |
| 14:43 | <@Tarinaky> | Inb4 rectal themed suggestions. |
| 14:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | Nothing, but some files are compressed; next step, I think, is to unpack all res files and search the unpacked chunks. |
| 14:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | My concern is that it's hard coded and the code looks something like this: |
| 14:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | player.x = STARTING_TILE_X << 8 | 0x80; |
| 14:44 | <@TheWatcher> | Tarinaky: ... read it, maybe? |
| 14:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | player.y = STARTING_TILE_Y << 8 | 0x80; |
| 14:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which will obviously not produce the byte sequence 80 1e 80 16 in the executable. |
| 14:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | froztbyte: I've been hacking on System Shock in here for like the past week |
| 14:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Or, depending on how you look at it, the past ten years |
| 14:53 | | * TheWatcher wonders if the shock 1 source actually exists anywhere now. |
| 14:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ok, I can now say with a fairly high confidence level that there are no chunks in the game containing that byte sequence. |
| 14:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | My unpacker doesn't support compressed chunk directories yet but those are generally used for textures and other bulk artwork. |
| 14:54 | <@TheWatcher> | Was hard enough to get an incomplete version of Shock2's, I don't hold much hope for shock 1. |
| 14:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah. |
| 14:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | If it does exist, it's probably buried on the hard drive of one of the original programmers somewhere. |
| 15:02 | <@TheWatcher> | I wonder if anyone has actually asked Kevin Levine if he has it, hrm. |
| 15:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ken Levine? |
| 15:04 | <@froztbyte> | ToxicFrog: hehe |
| 15:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | I talked with Marc LeBlanc a bit about the input handling, but the subject of source never came up. |
| 15:05 | <@TheWatcher> | TF: .. yeah, I always get that wrong, no idea why |
| 15:05 | <@TheWatcher> | Although in this case I blame lack of tea and non-working brain |
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| 18:33 | < ShellNinja> | Hmm. Do NPC factions in MoO2 ever attack Antares? |
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| 19:20 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | I could tell you but then I'd be lying. |
| 19:27 | < ShellNinja> | I know they can attack Orion eventually, but I dunno about Antares. |
| 19:30 | <@gnolam> | Not AFAIK. |
| 19:32 | < ShellNinja> | Fun. |
| 19:33 | < ShellNinja> | I'm thinking of how to extract more funsies from MoO2. I've won by conquest, Antares attack and diplomacy. |
| 19:33 | <@gnolam> | Now win a cultural victory. |
| 19:36 | < ErikMesoy> | With no traits. |
| 19:37 | < ShellNinja> | Huh? |
| 19:37 | < ShellNinja> | How do you win cultural? |
| 19:41 | <@gnolam> | I make joke, ha ha. |
| 19:42 | < ShellNinja> | I have been flim-flamed! |
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| 20:21 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | civ5-style religious victory :P |
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| 20:30 | <&McMartin> | That reminds me, I actually have yet to play a proper G&K game. |
| 20:30 | <&McMartin> | Though my first CivIV victory *was* by becoming Hindu Space Pope |
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| 21:10 | <@celticminstrel> | G&K? |
| 21:10 | <&McMartin> | Gods & Kings, the Civ V expansion that is apparently what turns it into The Real Civ V, much as Beyond The Sword turned Civ IV into The Real Civ IV |
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| 21:10 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh. |
| 21:11 | | * celticminstrel has Civ1, Civ2, Civ3, and Civ4, but not Civ5. >_> |
| 21:11 | <@celticminstrel> | Why does Beyond the Sword turn it into "The Real Civ IV"? |
| 21:12 | < RichyB> | I'm surprised that you don't list SMAC among that, since it's really Civ2.5 :) |
| 21:12 | < ShellNinja> | Who prefers vanilla CIV to BTS? |
| 21:12 | <@celticminstrel> | SMAC? |
| 21:12 | < ShellNinja> | Heathen! |
| 21:12 | | * celticminstrel hasn't yet tried BTS, so can't say. |
| 21:12 | < RichyB> | Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri! |
| 21:12 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh that. |
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| 21:12 | | * ErikMesoy likes Civ3, CivIV:BTS:Fall from Heaven mod, and not Civ5. |
| 21:13 | <@celticminstrel> | I think I have that too. |
| 21:13 | <&McMartin> | SMAC and Civ2 were sufficiently different that I actually have trouble interacting with Civ2. |
| 21:13 | <&McMartin> | BTS, among other things, triples the size of the tech tree. |
| 21:13 | < ErikMesoy> | SMAC played rather like Civ3 in my experience, but with funky units. |
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| 21:16 | < jeroud> | I found SMAC to be more like Civ2 than Civ3. |
| 21:17 | < jeroud> | They evolved in different directions. |
| 21:17 | < jeroud> | But I didn't really play vast amounts of either Civ2 or Civ3. |
| 21:17 | | * celticminstrel probably only ever played one game of Civ1. |
| 21:21 | < jeroud> | http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2013/02/10-years-of-pypy.html |
| 21:23 | <&McMartin> | Wow, has it really been 10 years? |
| 21:31 | < JustBob> | 'Terminology-Driven Programming' |
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| 21:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | I like "There is a conspiracy theory that the reason why translation is so slow is because time is stored away during it, which is later retrieved when an actual program runs to make them appear faster" and I remember reading about a recent in-development freeware game where some resource harvesting works exactly this way. |
| 21:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | (you can harvest time, refine it, and ship it to your factories. The factories work faster, everything around the time harvester works slower. Eventually you run out of time to harvest and everything around the harvester just...stops.) |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | Achron? |
| 21:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | No, that's not freeware and it's an RTS involving time travel. |
| 21:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | And "recent" here was earlier this week. |
| 21:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | Erdeweh: http://www.wipfmetz.net/ |
| 21:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | Basically a city management game where the goal is to escape to the moon before everything freezes and/or you run out of local time. |
| 21:49 | <@Reiv> | Achron was a terrible calamity. |
| 21:50 | <@Reiv> | It was clearly, and painfully, Someones Baby. |
| 21:50 | <@Reiv> | In doing so, they lost the key thing that could have made it decent; refinement. |
| 21:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | I have not actually played it yet, but reportedly it's pretty fun but extremely opaque; the developer is working on documentation. |
| 21:50 | <@Reiv> | They tried to make Starcraft I With Time Travel. |
| 21:50 | <@Reiv> | They should really have made C&C GDI With Time Travel. |
| 21:51 | <~Vornicus> | hooray, libraries |
| 21:51 | <@Reiv> | AKA: Bunch of units. Straightforward counters/strengths/etc. Skip the special ability micro. And keep it /clear/. |
| 21:52 | | * Vornicus has a copy of Javascript The Good Parts to laugh about |
| 21:52 | <@Reiv> | You has scouts, you has light tanks, you has super tanks sure, why not. You has tankkiller dudes, you has troopkiller dudes, you has swarmer dudes. The rock-paper-scissors doesn't have to be too excessive. |
| 21:52 | < jeroud> | Vornicus: Is it very short? |
| 21:52 | <@Reiv> | Keep the iconography clear, too. |
| 21:53 | <@Reiv> | Because the strength of this RTS is not in its nuanced and complex unit abilities! It is in goddamn time travel! |
| 21:53 | <~Vornicus> | 150 pages or so |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | And most of it is incredibly inefficient grammar specification tables! |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | The meat is more like 10 pages. |
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| 22:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | I swear the list of edits to the edits to the thesis is longer than the list of edits to the thesis |
| 22:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also my advisor has suggested another footnote \o/ |
| 22:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | I like footnotes and wish they weren't out of favour. |
| 22:19 | | ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep |
| 22:27 | <~Vornicus> | <3 Footnotes |
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| 22:42 | <@Reiv> | Why are footnotes out of favor? |
| 22:43 | <@Reiv> | Beyond "Peoples heads hurt when they try to do them in Word" |
| 22:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | Dunno |
| 22:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | But I was encouraged to use parentheticals instead |
| 22:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which makes me sad because footnotes own own own |
| 22:51 | <~Vornicus> | Footnotes aren't that hard in word |
| 22:51 | <~Vornicus> | you click the footnote button and behold, footnotes |
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| 23:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, here it's just \footnote{text goes here} |
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| 23:35 | | * ShellNinja ponders. |
| 23:35 | < ShellNinja> | Rhymes and melody are great for error correction in memorization. |
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| --- Log closed Fri Mar 01 00:00:51 2013 |