| --- Log opened Fri Mar 01 00:00:51 2013 |
| 00:01 | | VirusJTG_ [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 00:32 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
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| 02:29 | | * Vornicus wanders through Javascript: The Good Parts |
| 02:29 | <~Vornicus> | wait. |
| 02:29 | <~Vornicus> | why the hell are all tehse words reserved? |
| 02:31 | <&McMartin> | For Future Expansion |
| 02:31 | <&McMartin> | Because C didn't, and this is half the reason C++'s syntax is so retarded |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | The correct solution is of course to instead have your language's lexing depend on the parser state, possibly rendering the whole language non-context-free. |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | This is totally the sane answer! |
| 02:32 | <~Vornicus> | ...wat |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | That's his suggested solution; to have reserved words only be reserved words when that would parse, and be identifiers otherwise. |
| 02:33 | <~Vornicus> | wat |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | He lists "JS has reserved words" as part of The Awful Parts at the end. |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | Not "it has too many" |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | But "It has any" |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | This is consistent, and it can be made to work, but this is part of why I referred to him as insane. |
| 02:34 | <~Vornicus> | wat wat mcwat |
| 02:35 | <&McMartin> | He's not *wrong*, just insane~ |
| 02:35 | <~Vornicus> | Also, the For Future Expansion thing |
| 02:35 | <&McMartin> | (I had to add something similar to Ophis >_<) |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | (Because LDA $40, X has "X" as a modifier to the addressing mode and thus picks the opcode along with LDA, but BBR1 $40, X has "X" as an identifier specifying a memory location) |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | (Curse you, Honeywell :argh:) |
| 02:37 | <&McMartin> | My understanding is that JS reserves more words than it has to in the expectation that later editions of JavaScript would add new features, and it would be nice if doing so didn't break every script in the world thanks to already using those words as variable names. |
| 02:39 | <@Reiv> | Which requires shotgun planning. |
| 02:43 | <~Vornicus> | Since I started using python2, they've added three keywords, three builtin types, a goodly number of builtin functions, a surprising number of new language constructs, and tons of modules. |
| 02:45 | <~Vornicus> | There has only been one issue with that in all my code: my old Schlockian code used the words "True" and "False" as functions (wtf was I thinking) |
| 02:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | Now, the hardest part of my thesis revisions |
| 02:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | The acknowledgements |
| 02:46 | <~Vornicus> | naming? |
| 02:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | No, that's the hardest part of libss1res |
| 02:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which I actually wanted to discuss in here |
| 02:46 | < JustBob> | There has been a minor issue with my code: When I realized that I had variables named x, xx, xxx, xxxx, xxxxx, and xxxxxx. And they were all used in single statements. Something like x/xx^x*xxx+xxxxx+x^xxxxxx/xxx, etc. |
| 02:46 | <~Vornicus> | JustBob: okay you're just evil. |
| 02:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | In particular, the naming of various parts of the object heirarchy is giving me grief, but I'm not sure what to replace it with |
| 02:47 | <@celticminstrel> | XD Why would you call functions true or false... |
| 02:47 | <@celticminstrel> | Also... "Schlockian"? |
| 02:47 | < JustBob> | Vorn - It was honestly an accident. I was... Not really paying attention when I was coding. |
| 02:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Specifically, object IDs are actually a triple indicating position in the hierarchy - so, for example, the laser rapier has ID (0,3,1). |
| 02:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | 0 (Weapons) 3 (Melee Weapons) 1 (Laser Rapier) |
| 02:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | In some places this has to be translated into a single linear ID to look up object names and stuff, which is incredibly annoying, but that's not the issue. |
| 02:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | The unofficial specs call these "class", "subclass", and "type". |
| 02:49 | <~Vornicus> | Schlockian was a language I wrote for a dicebot. |
| 02:49 | <~Vornicus> | it had 64-bit arithmetic. |
| 02:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | These are all terms of art with different meanings, and furthermore "class" is a reserved word in some languages I use and "type" is a builtin function in the implementation language for this project. So I'd like names that are both more descriptive and less collidey. |
| 02:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | But I'm not sure what. |
| 02:50 | | * Vornicus eyes |
| 02:51 | <@Namegduf> | Superphylum, phylum |
| 02:51 | <@Namegduf> | :D |
| 02:52 | <@Namegduf> | Sphere, division, kind |
| 02:52 | < JustBob> | ToxicFrog - Can't you, uh, just name them Weapon, Range/Melee, Name? |
| 02:53 | <~Vornicus> | JustBob: not quite what is meant here |
| 02:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | JustBob: er |
| 02:53 | <@Namegduf> | I think the first one is supposed to let the 0 be replaced by something else for something other than weapons. |
| 02:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes, what Namegduf said. |
| 02:53 | <~Vornicus> | the "class" of that particular item is "weapon", the "subclass" is "melee weapon", and the "type" is "laser rapier" |
| 02:53 | <@Namegduf> | And the others may have different subclasses. |
| 02:53 | <@Namegduf> | Sphere, division, kind is serious |
| 02:53 | <~Vornicus> | So for instance if you wanted a, uh |
| 02:53 | < JustBob> | Ah. Then why don't you just use an arbitrary numeric system and just have a reference table? |
| 02:53 | <~Vornicus> | JustBob: um |
| 02:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | Every object type in this weapon is identified by these three numbers. The first number ("class") is 0 for weapons, 1 for ammo, 3 for explosives, 4 for dermal patches, etc. |
| 02:54 | < JustBob> | Or arbitrary name system. |
| 02:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | That's not the question I'm asking. |
| 02:54 | <~Vornicus> | JustBob: it's the other way around |
| 02:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'm asking what do I call these three numbers other than class/subclass/type. |
| 02:54 | <@Namegduf> | I'm guessing he wants to be able to implement logic for "all weapons" |
| 02:54 | <@Namegduf> | Or "all melee weapons" |
| 02:54 | <~Vornicus> | Not just "all weapons", "all entities", period. |
| 02:54 | <~Vornicus> | These things include not just weapons or pickupables. |
| 02:54 | <@Namegduf> | All entities doesn't require a hierarchial system |
| 02:55 | <~Vornicus> | All entities is /already in/ a hierarchical system. |
| 02:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | E.g., a laser rapier is "class 0, subclass 3, type 1". An energy grating is "class 10, subclass 2, type 5". These are terrible names for these values; I want better ones. |
| 02:55 | <@Namegduf> | That doesn't make sense |
| 02:55 | <~Vornicus> | The question is what to call the segments of the hierarchical numbering scheme the game itself uses. |
| 02:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | Namegduf: I am writing editing tools for an existing game. I have no control over the object hierarchy. I do have control over what those struct fields are called in my own code. |
| 02:56 | < JustBob> | Category/style/effect? |
| 02:56 | <@Namegduf> | Ah. |
| 02:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Most of these are not "effects", they are types of physical objects. |
| 02:56 | < JustBob> | I was meaning the weapon effect. |
| 02:56 | < JustBob> | As in, KE, AP, ArP, energy, etc. |
| 02:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Er |
| 02:56 | <~Vornicus> | Not part of this data. |
| 02:56 | < JustBob> | As a rough sort classification. |
| 02:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Except that's only what the last number means for certain classes of weapons. |
| 02:57 | <~Vornicus> | It's not just weapons. |
| 02:57 | < JustBob> | Classification/Usage/[fuckifIknow] |
| 02:57 | <~Vornicus> | We have things like, uh, I don't know, those zombies that throw things. |
| 02:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | For 0/X/X (weapons), the second number determines the type of weapon (semi-automatic kinetic, fully-automatic kinetic, energy beam, melee, etc) and third indicates the specific weapon within that classification (0/X/0 is a dartgun if X is 0, and an EMP blaster if X is 5, for example) |
| 02:58 | <~Vornicus> | And that has three mumbers. |
| 02:58 | <&McMartin> | Primary/Secondary/Tertiary~ |
| 02:58 | | * McMartin is a helper |
| 02:58 | <~Vornicus> | Family Genus Species |
| 02:58 | < JustBob> | Ah, okay. That makes it clearer. |
| 02:58 | < JustBob> | I would go Device/Classification/Name, if that were possible. |
| 02:59 | <@Namegduf> | I already mentioned my suggestion of sphere, division, kind |
| 02:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, again, "device" is misleading, since other top-level categories include static decorations, invisible map triggers, enemies, animations, ammo clips, and software upgrades. |
| 02:59 | < JustBob> | Ah. Category? |
| 02:59 | < JustBob> | Or is that reserved? |
| 02:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ages ago I used root/branch/leaf but that was kind of awful as well. |
| 03:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | Category/subcategory/kind is a possibility. |
| 03:00 | < JustBob> | Category/Classification/Name |
| 03:00 | < JustBob> | I'm not a coder (duh) and I would be able to look at that and go, "Okay, that makes sense." |
| 03:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | "name" is already a separate field which is the actual object name. |
| 03:00 | < JustBob> | Err, well, kind, then. Or ObjectID. SOmething of that ilk. |
| 03:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | E.g., object.category = 0; /* weapons */ object.subcategory = 2; /* melee weapons */ object.kind = 1; /* laser rapier */ object.name = "MARK FOUR LASER RAPIER"; |
| 03:02 | < JustBob> | That looks sensible. |
| 03:02 | < JustBob> | Well, I'd swap 'kind' with 'ID' but I'm weird like that. |
| 03:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | The ID is that complete set of three numbers which uniquely identifies that object type. |
| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | ... Ubuntu going to Rolling Release wat |
| 03:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | yessssssssssssssssss finally |
| 03:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | RR supreacy |
| 03:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | supremacy |
| 03:03 | <&McMartin> | The problem is, everythign that isn't LTS is eternally fucked up, so RR means All fuckups All The Time =( |
| 03:03 | < JustBob> | Ah. Well, in that case, cat/subcat/kind should work fine, at least from my perspective. |
| 03:03 | <&McMartin> | I think they're going to, um. Bring out RR before going to RR though. |
| 03:04 | <&McMartin> | The aptly-named QQ does not fill me with confidence |
| 03:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ok, in that case I think we have a winner. |
| 03:04 | <@Reiv> | Being? |
| 03:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | Category, subcategory, kind. The object type ID is the set of those three numbers. The object name is the actual string describing the object. |
| 03:05 | < JustBob> | Looks reasonable. |
| 03:05 | < JustBob> | Too reasonable, in fact. You should redo it with arbitrary labels of x/y/z. |
| 03:05 | <@Reiv> | As a sanity check? |
| 03:07 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 03:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | (there is also an "slot number" which is unique to each object on a given map; if you have, say, two laser rapiers on a map, they both have ID 0/3/1, but different slot numbers. The ID is used to look up generic properties of laser rapiers in the gamesys, like "how much damage does it do" and "what does it mass"; the slot number is used to look up properties specific to that particular laser rapier, like where it's located in the worl |
| 03:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | d.) |
| 03:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | JustBob: x/y/z are already used for 3d positioning~ |
| 03:07 | | * JustBob facefaults. |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | pwnt |
| 03:07 | < JustBob> | rho/epsilon/phi. |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | rho omega eta tau |
| 03:08 | <~Vornicus> | Now it looks like a 6-axis rotation |
| 03:09 | < JustBob> | nu/psi/phi. :p |
| 03:09 | | * Vornicus eyes DeceasedCrab's latest video. |
| 03:09 | <~Vornicus> | "Let's Play With Regular Expressions!" |
| 03:09 | <&McMartin> | Oh, is he done with Knytt Underground? |
| 03:10 | | * McMartin is still waiting for that to come out via a venue he's willing to trust with financial data~ |
| 03:10 | <@Reiv> | foo/bob/kar |
| 03:10 | <~Vornicus> | No, he's nowhere near done with Knytt Underground. |
| 03:11 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: wut |
| 03:11 | < JustBob> | Nah. Nu/Psi/Phi, because it amuses me to have it be phonetically "New Sci-Fi" |
| 03:11 | | syksleep is now known as Syk |
| 03:14 | | * Vornicus finds himself examining the old Schlockian code. |
| 03:14 | <~Vornicus> | omg I was the worst programmer on the planet |
| 03:14 | <@celticminstrel> | XD |
| 03:14 | <&McMartin> | Reiv: Knytt Underground is a commercial game. The last time I checked it was only available from wacky venues I've never heard of. |
| 03:14 | <~Vornicus> | (this was written when I had less than one year of programming under my belt) |
| 03:14 | <&McMartin> | I'm holding off on purchasing it until it shows up on, say, GOG or Steam. |
| 03:15 | <@Reiv> | Vornicus: No, I very much doubt that. |
| 03:16 | <@Reiv> | I would, however, believe that you suffered rapid Code Smell due to a lack of initial experience. |
| 03:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: this is every program I wrote more than a year ago for me |
| 03:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | With very few exceptions |
| 03:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | (I'm still pretty happy overall with vstruct, for example) |
| 03:27 | | * McMartin checks. Nope! Still haven't forgiven Debian for causing him to get like 30 bug reports regarding not running on a version of GTK that was 10 releases out of date |
| 03:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | Snrk |
| 03:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: in contrast, I look at, say, the old gamesys editor, and it makes me want to vomit. |
| 03:38 | <@Reiv> | ... OUYA is apparently being manufactured already. |
| 03:38 | <@Reiv> | They're planning annual hardware refreshes. |
| 03:38 | <@Reiv> | ... wouldn't that defeat the whole /point/ of a console? |
| 03:38 | <@Namegduf> | It's very commodity hardware. I can believe that. |
| 03:38 | <&McMartin> | They should probably looking into having a first release |
| 03:38 | <&McMartin> | *look into |
| 03:39 | <@Namegduf> | If it's being manufactured then they're working on that. |
| 03:39 | <@Reiv> | Also this means they're clearly not subsidising hardware or anything close to it. |
| 03:39 | <@Namegduf> | It's pretty commodity hadware. |
| 03:39 | <@Reiv> | Which... I guess makes sense? |
| 03:39 | <@Reiv> | Given they had to kickstart it. |
| 03:40 | <@Namegduf> | I'd hope they aren't, at the prices they're charging and what the hardware does. |
| 03:40 | <@Reiv> | But it also means that devs aren't going to get to play 'finetune the hardware' or anything like it either. |
| 03:40 | <@Namegduf> | It's basically Android in a box that plugs into a TV. |
| 03:40 | <@Reiv> | I get that, yes. |
| 03:40 | <@Namegduf> | I think they'd have trouble playing finetuning in Java anyway. |
| 03:41 | <@Namegduf> | Refreshes could work if they make all the relevant aspects of it backwards compatible and don't do wild shifts like architecture changes which would break NDK stuff. |
| 03:41 | <@Namegduf> | Basically just a somewhat faster machine each year. |
| 03:42 | <@Namegduf> | I'm dubious that they will make it work, though. |
| 03:42 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Program Shutting down] |
| 03:43 | <@Namegduf> | I think its more interesting as a apps-for-your-TV platform than a gaming platform, myself. |
| 03:43 | <@Namegduf> | Lots of gaming platforms do stuff like Netflix on the side, it seems like it'd be a good place for a generic marketplace in apps like that. |
| 03:44 | <@Reiv> | Android TV is already a thing, mind |
| 03:44 | <@Reiv> | Hard to compete in the area, it's already a race to the bottom with chinese chips |
| 03:45 | <@Alek> | I dunno what they're going to be doing, but what I'd do is put out a model, then a newer model number every so often (half a year? a year?), and if people want to buy a cheaper, older model from refurb, they can, and if they want an up-to-date one, they can, and if they want to put up-to-date hardware in their old one, they can, except then it's not going to be a line model any longer. |
| 03:45 | <@Alek> | hope you followed all that. |
| 03:47 | <@Reiv> | Alek: They do that already |
| 03:47 | <@Reiv> | It's called "a PC" |
| 03:47 | <@Reiv> | ~ |
| 03:49 | <@Alek> | close. |
| 03:49 | <@Alek> | but anyway. >_> |
| 03:53 | <@Namegduf> | Only an engineer could think that there's no difference between a box which you plug into your TV and which immediately works, and PC hardware which can hypothetically be configured that way with the right software. :P |
| 03:56 | | Reiv [NSwebIRC@A3BDC3.5BE3EC.B8847E.5ADB9D] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 04:15 | < Syk> | that's because there isn't a difference |
| 04:15 | < Syk> | the box which you plug into your TV is essentially a PC, with 'the right software' |
| 04:15 | < JustBob> | Speaking as an engineer... |
| 04:15 | < Syk> | there is no functional difference |
| 04:15 | < JustBob> | There's supposed to be a difference? |
| 04:16 | < JustBob> | If there is, we need to flog the code-monkeys harder. :p |
| 04:16 | < Syk> | the PS4 is literally a PC |
| 04:16 | < JustBob> | Um, the original Xbox was literally a PC. |
| 04:16 | < Syk> | it's an AMD shitbox with a controller |
| 04:16 | < JustBob> | This is nothing new. :p |
| 04:16 | < Syk> | I've never seen an Xbox in person |
| 04:16 | < Syk> | so I don't know much about them :P |
| 04:17 | < JustBob> | Heh. |
| 04:18 | < JustBob> | 64 megs of ram, 700 mHz pentium processor, 20-gig HDD, and an nVidia geforce2 mod, iirc. |
| 04:19 | < Syk> | if the xbox was x86 and NT |
| 04:19 | < Syk> | why the fuck did Halo have to be ported |
| 04:20 | <@Namegduf> | So in short either you use a definition of 'PC' which it is no criticism of a console for a console to be |
| 04:20 | <&Derakon> | The Gamecube was basically an IBM G4. |
| 04:20 | <&Derakon> | Consoles want to uses standard components as much as anyone else; they have to keep their costs down somehow! |
| 04:20 | < Syk> | the PS4 is AMD, so, yeah |
| 04:20 | <@Namegduf> | Or you use the definition of PC used in selling products and it isn't |
| 04:21 | < Syk> | cheap and shitty, perfect for Sony |
| 04:21 | <@Namegduf> | Syk: Also there was a huge difference, the software that comes preinstalled and configured. |
| 04:21 | | * Syk awaits Christmas, and thousands of housefires |
| 04:21 | <@Namegduf> | Syk: Which is kind of dramatically important |
| 04:21 | <@Namegduf> | And "only an engineer" could fixate on the equivalence of the hardware to the point of missing it |
| 04:22 | | * iospace pokes Syk |
| 04:22 | < Syk> | because engineers aren't thick |
| 04:22 | | * Syk pokes iospace with a box of nerds |
| 04:22 | < JustBob> | Speaking as an engineer, I am plenty thick. |
| 04:22 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah sure that's exactly why. |
| 04:22 | | * iospace takes them and eats them |
| 04:22 | <&Derakon> | My word, Syk certainly is sure of him/herself, aren't they? |
| 04:22 | < JustBob> | My skull is capable of stopping high-intensity gammas better than lead. |
| 04:22 | <&Derakon> | Doesn't mince words. |
| 04:22 | < Syk> | :P |
| 04:22 | <&Derakon> | Opinionated, too. |
| 04:23 | < Syk> | lawl |
| 04:23 | <&Derakon> | It took serious effort to not kick you for saying that, just now. |
| 04:23 | <@Namegduf> | Preconfigured software differences matter a *lot* in hardware sales |
| 04:23 | <&Derakon> | I'm not kidding! |
| 04:23 | < Syk> | it's just that there's no actual difference between a PC and a console |
| 04:23 | < Syk> | it's a marketing thing |
| 04:23 | < JustBob> | There's very little /hardware/ difference. |
| 04:24 | < JustBob> | There's a fuckton of software difference. |
| 04:24 | <@Namegduf> | No, there is a huge practical difference in terms of what a consumer can actually do with them. |
| 04:24 | <@Namegduf> | Which is what matters in product sales. |
| 04:24 | < JustBob> | ^- That. |
| 04:24 | <&Derakon> | Namegduf: what they can, and what they don't have to do with them. |
| 04:24 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah, that too. |
| 04:24 | <&Derakon> | There is a lot of value in walled gardens that work without needing endless configuration! |
| 04:24 | < Syk> | I plug my computer into my TV, and my XBox controller into my computer |
| 04:24 | < Syk> | does that make it a console? both are pre-configured to work. |
| 04:24 | <&Derakon> | There is also value in endlessly-configurable devices as well. |
| 04:24 | <@Namegduf> | You can play the latest XBox exclusives now, right |
| 04:25 | <@Namegduf> | Wait, no, you can't |
| 04:25 | < Syk> | Namegduf: so things that aren't the XBox aren't consoles? |
| 04:25 | < Syk> | interesintg |
| 04:25 | <&Derakon> | You're being intentionally thick, Syk. |
| 04:25 | <@Namegduf> | No, things that aren't the XBox do not have "no actual difference" between them and the XBox |
| 04:25 | <@Namegduf> | Well, not these things that aren't the Xbox. |
| 04:26 | < Syk> | maybe there was a difference before, but if I plug a TV into a Windows 8 computer, I get games, I get video, I get internet |
| 04:26 | < Syk> | right out of the box |
| 04:26 | <&Derakon> | You do not get the same games, the apps for video and internet are different, the experience is different. |
| 04:26 | < Syk> | and? |
| 04:27 | <&Derakon> | And that's what makes the difference between a computer and a console. |
| 04:27 | < Syk> | the games between the PS3 and the 360 are different |
| 04:27 | < JustBob> | Not sure if trolling or just dense. |
| 04:27 | <&Derakon> | I fail to see how that is pertinent. |
| 04:27 | <&Derakon> | I'm going to go with both. |
| 04:27 | < Syk> | so it makes a difference if it's 360 -> PC |
| 04:27 | < Syk> | but not if it's 360 -> PS3? |
| 04:28 | < JustBob> | 360 <-> PS3, because they're equivalent devices. |
| 04:28 | < JustBob> | Functionally, I mean. |
| 04:28 | < Syk> | and no, the 'apps for video and internet' are NOT different |
| 04:28 | <&Derakon> | Okay, look. A console is a preconfigured device with custom software that is mass-produced and has more software specifically written to its particular hardware configuration. |
| 04:28 | < Syk> | go and find a 360, and a Windows 8 PC |
| 04:28 | <&Derakon> | By that metric, say, a C64k could qualify as a console. |
| 04:28 | < Syk> | you'll notice the 360 has IE, and the PC has XBox Live Video |
| 04:29 | <&Derakon> | A "PC" does not because there is a functionally infinite number of PC configurations. |
| 04:29 | < JustBob> | Console != PC, despite using similar hardware. Consoles are standardized for a certain configuration and setup. |
| 04:29 | < Syk> | Derakon: so would that make a Mac Mini a console, then? |
| 04:29 | < Syk> | there's only been five models of those in seven years |
| 04:29 | <&Derakon> | No. |
| 04:29 | < Syk> | and there's been 10+ PS3 models in that amount of time |
| 04:29 | <&Derakon> | Because there's multiple configurations (customizations of models), and because there isn't software written targeting specifically that hardware/OS combination. |
| 04:30 | < Syk> | except there is customisations of PS3s as well |
| 04:30 | <&Derakon> | There's a difference between a Mini with 2GB of RAM and one with 8GB. They won't be able to do the same tasks. |
| 04:30 | < Syk> | and there is software made for the Mac Mini |
| 04:30 | <&Derakon> | Okay, look, Syk? |
| 04:30 | <&Derakon> | Stop being dense. |
| 04:30 | <&Derakon> | It's really tedious. |
| 04:30 | <&Derakon> | If you don't get what we're talking about, say so. |
| 04:30 | <&Derakon> | But if you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, then fuck off. |
| 04:30 | <&Derakon> | Or you will be fucked off. |
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| 05:10 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out |
| 05:22 | <~Vornicus> | You can standardize on hardware configuration et al and still have improvements |
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| 05:25 | <~Vornicus> | RAM and CPU speed and disc speed and so forth. |
| 05:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | In practice, though, everyone is going to optimize for the base model. |
| 05:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...well, almost everyone, cf Perfect Dark on the N64. |
| 05:26 | <~Vornicus> | What happened with Perfect Dark? (I never had an N64) |
| 05:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | Unless you had an Expansion Pak (which doubled the N64's RAM, from 4MB to 8MB) installed, the only available game modes were 2P multiplayer and 8P botmatch and challenges. |
| 05:28 | <@RStamer> | It required the extended-RAM thing. |
| 05:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | In particular, no singleplayer, co-op, counter-op, or 4P multiplayer. |
| 05:29 | <~Vornicus> | Oh I met a few games that required the expansion pak |
| 05:29 | <@RStamer> | There's even a game that won't run with it (Silicon Valley) |
| 05:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | That said, the expansion pak was a separate addon you could get and even came bundled with some games, rather than being a completely new console revision |
| 05:30 | <@RStamer> | Err |
| 05:30 | <@RStamer> | Space Station Silicon |
| 05:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | And with, say, the PSX, everything is written to run on an SCPH-1001. Similarly with the PS2 and PS3. |
| 05:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | (granted, the differences between those, from a programmer's point of view, are comparatively minor) |
| 05:31 | | * ToxicFrog deploys the slep |
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| 06:11 | | * Vornicus finalizes his mvc design: the model has a reference to a view object, and passes itself to the view object's methods when it needs updating. |
| 06:12 | | mac [mac@Nightstar-fe8a1f12.il.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 06:19 | | ErikMesoy|sleep is now known as ErikMesoy |
| 06:28 | <~Vornicus> | The control functions currently just send signals to a single model object. |
| 06:34 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 06:35 | <~Vornicus> | I can't think of a better way for that yet. |
| 06:37 | <@froztbyte> | ToxicFrog: I'm talking from article-gained knowledge here, but I understood the PS3 to be hell to write for |
| 06:48 | <~Vornicus> | I'm slowly getting my /* */ reflex back. |
| 06:49 | <~Vornicus> | (they're right next to each other on the numpad, so I use them there) |
| 06:49 | <~Vornicus> | (but python doesn't do block comments, certainly not like that, so) |
| 06:50 | | * froztbyte usually just uses an editor-block-select thing if necessary |
| 06:50 | <~Vornicus> | I've never gotten the hang of those. |
| 06:50 | <~Vornicus> | except for mass indent/dedent |
| 06:51 | <@froztbyte> | hehe |
| 06:51 | <@froztbyte> | it's kinda funny |
| 06:52 | <@froztbyte> | I write so little code in the course of things, but my editor setup plays at a weight of at least a few professional coders :D |
| 06:53 | <@froztbyte> | often I hear the argument "I only do it once in a blue moon, don't need to care [about all that effort]" for various things (still using perl/php even when something else can solve it better, using nano, etc), and it just honestly feels like the bit of time spent learning these things was worth it |
| 06:53 | <@froztbyte> | hell, even just to be aware that the option is there |
| 06:55 | <~Vornicus> | At some point I decided nano wasn't good enough, but I can use it. of the two big ones I prefer vi mostly because i have a reference sheet |
| 06:55 | <@froztbyte> | hehe |
| 06:55 | <~Vornicus> | But I can't. fucking. stand. not being able to use the mouse. |
| 06:55 | <@froztbyte> | eh, you can do that |
| 06:55 | <~Vornicus> | One time I tried writing a plugin for devstoo that would accept gamepad input. |
| 06:56 | <~Vornicus> | It didn't really work. |
| 06:56 | <@froztbyte> | both in vi/vim with a console (takes some hackery, but can be done), but the easier way is to just fire up gvim |
| 06:56 | <~Vornicus> | usually nowadays I'm using jedit |
| 06:56 | <@froztbyte> | I find that getting to love visual mode, and the movement keys, goes a long way to making the mouse issue less of a problem |
| 06:57 | <@froztbyte> | that said |
| 06:57 | | * froztbyte enworks |
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| 08:12 | <~Vornicus> | I saw recently a post by some game maker that recommended that until you start succeeding you make your targets easier and easier. |
| 08:12 | <~Vornicus> | I don't remember where i saw it, but I bet someone here also saw it and has a better memory. |
| 08:12 | <@froztbyte> | that's for people who aren't stubborn enough ;D |
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| 09:39 | | thalass [thalass@Nightstar-23c59d3f.bigpond.net.au] has joined #code |
| 09:39 | | * thalass is easily amused |
| 09:40 | < thalass> | $ cowsay moo |
| 09:40 | <~Vornicus> | That's pretty impressively easily amused. |
| 09:40 | <&McMartin> | Ah, cowsay |
| 09:41 | <&McMartin> | Cowsay's author is a fairly good friend of mine. |
| 09:43 | < thalass> | i installed Terminal IDE on my (android) phone, and since sshd is not 100% with that, i thought i would learn telnet. In doing that i found this: http://smashingtips.com/linux/cool-terminal-commands-for-linux |
| 09:43 | < thalass> | Tell him i am suitably amused, McM |
| 09:43 | <&McMartin> | It is an Old Shame (tm) >_> |
| 09:43 | <&McMartin> | And, I suspect, also a catbacon kind of thing |
| 09:44 | <&McMartin> | http://scalzi.com/perspectivecatbig.jpg |
| 09:47 | | * thalass laughs |
| 09:52 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 09:55 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-bdbb4730.in-addr.csiro.au] has joined #code |
| 09:55 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 09:57 | | * Vornicus detaffies. |
| 09:58 | <~Vornicus> | the model is completely encapsulated now. |
| 09:59 | <~Vornicus> | now to get the view that way. |
| 10:13 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: like the guy who made bindgraph |
| 10:13 | <@froztbyte> | it was supposed to be a quick afternoon hack for use at a conf |
| 10:14 | <@froztbyte> | then somehow the code stayed alive, and someone packaged it |
| 10:14 | <@froztbyte> | it's a goddamned abomination |
| 10:15 | < Syk> | thalass: if you need a good terminal, Irssi Connectbot has a decent local term setting |
| 10:20 | < thalass> | connectbot on android? I think i have that, too, but thought i'd try Terminal IDE |
| 10:22 | < Syk> | yeah |
| 10:22 | < Syk> | irssi connectbot is different than regular, it has some improvements for irssi |
| 10:22 | < Syk> | (long-press the screen, it gives you some shortcuts and things) |
| 10:23 | < thalass> | ah cool |
| 10:25 | <@TheWatcher> | (Or just use regular connectbot + hacker's keyboard, but anyway) |
| 10:28 | <@froztbyte> | keyboard switching is too frustrating to want to deal with that |
| 10:28 | <@froztbyte> | so irssi-connectbot is my preferred ssh client |
| 10:41 | | * Vornicus appears to have run himself out of taffy. |
| 10:41 | <~Vornicus> | holy shit. |
| 10:42 | | * Vornicus needs to fill in the last few holes in the monolith though. |
| 11:01 | < Syk> | TheWatcher: except stock JB4.2 keyboard is so niiiice |
| 11:18 | <@TheWatcher> | Keyboard switching? |
| 11:18 | <@TheWatcher> | Why would you? |
| 11:19 | <@froztbyte> | because I wouldn't use hacker kb by default |
| 11:19 | <@froztbyte> | (nor the stock) |
| 11:19 | | * TheWatcher shrug |
| 11:19 | <@TheWatcher> | Each to their own |
| 11:21 | | Vornicus [vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 11:27 | | * thalass is back! |
| 11:28 | < thalass> | I have hacker's kb, and connectbot. I've been using sshdroid as a server, but lately it has been freezing to the point of uselessness, which is one of the reasons i thought i'd try terminal IDE. It has lots of things. |
| 11:32 | < thalass> | To be honest, it's times like these that i miss my N900, with its proper xterm and hardware keyboard. |
| 11:34 | < thalass> | Someone needs to make an N9000 octo-core 4gb ram 5" screen (" is inches, right?) with slide out keyboard running proper linux. >.> |
| 11:34 | < thalass> | Kickstarter, anyone? |
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| 11:35 | < thalass> | wow i think i just had a five minute conversation with myself. |
| 11:35 | < thalass> | >.< |
| 11:35 | < Syk> | thalass: the problem with the N900 though |
| 11:35 | < thalass> | Oh not. *phew* |
| 11:35 | < Syk> | is that it's meego |
| 11:35 | < thalass> | Maemo, even. :P |
| 11:35 | < Syk> | arent they the same thing |
| 11:36 | < Syk> | but yeah |
| 11:36 | < Syk> | wasn't maemo running like... X11 or something on top |
| 11:36 | < Syk> | I dunno, X11 on a phone just doesn't sit well with me |
| 11:37 | < Syk> | Android using its own thing was a good idea, but, it went and made a Java monstrosity |
| 11:37 | < Syk> | maybe Wayland on a phone might not be bad? |
| 11:39 | | * thalass looks up wayland |
| 11:39 | < Syk> | (it's more 'oh god we don't need to put X11 on MORE things') |
| 11:39 | < Syk> | thalass: wayland is X11 take II |
| 11:39 | < Syk> | brilliant idea to start off with, but as it develops it's kind of getting a bit 'what' |
| 11:39 | < thalass> | ah |
| 11:39 | < Syk> | every application owns its windows |
| 11:39 | < Syk> | each app writes to a graphics buffer |
| 11:40 | < Syk> | there's no system-level graphics tearing, only app-level |
| 11:40 | < Syk> | or something like that |
| 11:40 | < thalass> | That sounds messy |
| 11:40 | < Syk> | it's theoretically a good idea |
| 11:40 | < Syk> | but yeah |
| 11:40 | < Syk> | then the window managenment is done by wayland' |
| 11:40 | < Syk> | and compositing |
| 11:40 | < Syk> | which... may be interesting |
| 11:41 | < thalass> | heh |
| 11:42 | < thalass> | Still. I'll take crusty old Actual Linux over a java monstrosity any day. :P |
| 11:43 | < Syk> | Android is a Java monstrosity, but, it's a good Java monstrosity |
| 11:43 | < Syk> | it's not as bad as it could have been |
| 11:43 | < thalass> | heh |
| 11:45 | < thalass> | The main thing with the N900 was native python. I started learning python because i could do it on the go. Then i get an android phone and there is no python. Though that isn't the case as such now, software keyboards suck for lots of typing. |
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| 13:03 | <@TheWatcher> | Idly thal, apparently there is a way to cross-compile python 2.7 to run native on android. |
| 13:05 | | Thalass|brb is now known as Thalass |
| 13:06 | < Thalass> | ORLY? |
| 13:07 | < Syk> | yup |
| 13:07 | < Syk> | it's just regular old ARMv7 mostly |
| 13:07 | < Syk> | you wont be able to do gui things probably tho |
| 13:07 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, apparently with SDL you can |
| 13:08 | | * TheWatcher will get link in a moment when windows has finished berooting |
| 13:08 | < Thalass> | huh |
| 13:11 | <@TheWatcher> | http://mdqinc.com/blog/2011/09/cross-compiling-python-for-android/ - dunno if it still works, but *shrug* |
| 13:16 | < Thalass> | Interesting |
| 13:21 | < Thalass> | I have qpython, but i haven't yet figured out how to run it from command line like normal python. |
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| 14:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | froztbyte: having actually worked with that hardware - yes, it is. |
| 14:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | You get a powerPC processor connected in a ring network to a bunch of subsidiary processors with different instruction sets and 256k of directly attached memory per processor. |
| 14:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | It is hella powerful but hard to make use of effectively, and you can't effectively treat it as either a single-core machine or an SMP one. |
| 14:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | (it is, in fact, a distant cousin of the hardware I wrote my thesis on) |
| 14:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | The point I was making, though, is that there've been a bunch of PS3 hardware revisions, but everyone writes their games to run well on the lowest common denominator. |
| 14:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | You will never buy a PS3 game and have it not work because you have a CECHB rather than a CECH-40 |
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| 14:29 | < Syk> | wait am I being proven right in an argument done six hours ago |
| 14:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | No, not in the slightest. |
| 14:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | I was responding to <froztbyte> ToxicFrog: I'm talking from article-gained knowledge here, but I understood the PS3 to be hell to write for |
| 14:45 | <@froztbyte> | ToxicFrog: ring network, as in a la token ring? |
| 14:45 | <@froztbyte> | (in terms of architecture) |
| 14:46 | < Syk> | :( |
| 14:46 | < Syk> | man i should do some work sometime |
| 14:46 | < Syk> | that'd be a good idea |
| 14:46 | < Syk> | lol |
| 14:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | froztbyte: no; token ring actually uses a hub topology and the "circulating token" is an ethernet protocol construct. |
| 14:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | "ring network" here refers to the physical topology of the network; each processor is directly connected only to the adjacent processors. |
| 14:57 | <@froztbyte> | yeah, I'm familiar with how the token ring system actually works |
| 14:57 | <@froztbyte> | was wondering about the latter |
| 14:57 | <@froztbyte> | but thanks, you answered what i wanted to know :) |
| 14:58 | <@froztbyte> | that must be terribly confusing to a lot of people |
| 14:58 | <@froztbyte> | you can effectively only really do pipelining |
| 14:58 | <@froztbyte> | or "applicative" modelling |
| 14:58 | <@froztbyte> | and people aren't really used to that way of working |
| 15:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | I think we'll see more of it as core counts rise, though. |
| 15:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | Cache coherency is expensive. |
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| 15:55 | <@froztbyte> | well, I can't really argue the benefits much |
| 15:55 | <@froztbyte> | but I believe we'll find some ways to work with it :) |
| 15:55 | | * froztbyte is only that good at architecture things, mostly due to lack of practice/exposure |
| 15:58 | <@iospace> | http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/A-CSV-is-as-Good-as-RAM,-Right.aspx |
| 16:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | froztbyte: the main issue here is that a ring network grows linearly with the number of processors, whereas a cache coherency network grows...faster. And imposes increasing performance penalties. |
| 16:31 | <@froztbyte> | amongst them locking/mutex fun |
| 16:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Cache coherency lets you pretend that you're programming a PRAM machine rather than a CTA machine, but at some point the abstraction breaks down. |
| 16:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | (also, even in PRAM contexts, I greatly prefer message passing to LMU anyways, soooo) |
| 16:58 | < Xon> | <ToxicFrog> It is hella powerful but hard to make use of effectively, and you can't effectively treat it as either a single-core machine or an SMP one. |
| 16:58 | < Xon> | I always wonder what the /hell/ sony was on when they dreamt up the PS3's CPU specs |
| 17:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | I have some speculation, but I'm off to turn in the final build of my thesis now, so it'll have to wait. |
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| 19:17 | <&jerith> | Bleh. |
| 19:18 | <&jerith> | Just as I thought I'd reached a reasonable "everything works" checkpoint in my epic refactor, it turns out a whole lot of functionality relies on the hackery I just cleaned up. |
| 19:19 | <&jerith> | This is why hidden coupling is bad, people. |
| 19:38 | <@gnolam> | Crouching Python, Hidden Coupling |
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| 19:45 | | Wires is now known as ShellNinja |
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| 21:22 | | Kyte [c80e6b02@Nightstar-4fab16c5.mibbit.com] has joined #code |
| 21:24 | | * iospace waves at Kyte |
| 21:25 | < Kyte> | yo |
| 21:28 | <@iospace> | welcome btw, leave your sanity at the door :P |
| 21:30 | <@iospace> | time to blow up XPe! |
| 21:31 | < Kyte> | just poke it |
| 21:31 | < Kyte> | should do it on its own |
| 21:33 | <@Haeroe> | Welcome |
| 21:34 | < Kyte> | hi |
| 21:36 | <@iospace> | Kyte: i did try asking it nicely |
| 21:40 | <@iospace> | but it somehow can't find files when i build it |
| 21:40 | <@iospace> | Dx |
| 21:40 | < Kyte> | wut |
| 21:40 | < Kyte> | what kinda files? |
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| 21:43 | <@iospace> | AHCI drivers |
| 21:43 | <@iospace> | IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN IMPORTED YOU HOOOOOOOOOOOORS |
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| 21:57 | <@iospace> | WE HAVE AHCI SUPPORT |
| 21:57 | <@iospace> | TAKE THAT YOU PIECE OF SHIT :D |
| 22:01 | | ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep |
| 22:09 | <@iospace> | and may have graphics soon :3 |
| 22:12 | <@iospace> | well, proper graphics drivers :D |
| 22:18 | <@iospace> | fuckyeahgraphics :3 |
| 22:24 | <&McMartin> | AHCI... is that USB 3.0? |
| 22:25 | | * McMartin checks |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | Guess not~ |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | Looks like SATA? |
| 22:26 | <@iospace> | SATA |
| 22:26 | <@iospace> | the successor to IDE |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | And Linux kernels seem to pretend they are SCSI |
| 22:27 | <@iospace> | heh |
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| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | But you can tell it isn't, because when you do hardware detection they actually show up~ |
| 22:29 | <&McMartin> | How one goes about loading disk controller drivers is one piece of the bootstrap process I've always found a little black-magicky. |
| 22:29 | | * iospace shrugs |
| 22:29 | <@iospace> | either way |
| 22:29 | <@iospace> | it's a pain in the ass because this is XP |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | Ouch |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | Yes, that would do it |
| 22:41 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: ....pretend? |
| 22:42 | <&McMartin> | froztbyte: I was under the impression that SCSI and SATA were different things? |
| 22:42 | <&McMartin> | But both show up in the /dev/sd* hierarchy. |
| 22:42 | <&jerith> | AFAIK, they just used the SCSI kernel APIs. |
| 22:42 | <@RStamer> | Depending on kernel options, SATA drives can show up as hd* IIRC |
| 22:43 | <&jerith> | Because the IDE ones were full of spiders or something. |
| 22:43 | <@froztbyte> | they are, but afaict the /dev/sd* naming scheme is more like how any ethernet adapter will default to showing up as ethX |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | That wouldn't surprise me |
| 22:43 | <@froztbyte> | special-name stuff in the driver will show up however it's made to |
| 22:44 | <@froztbyte> | but yeah, there was some big wiggle in '07 or so which changed the drive stuff a bit |
| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | That's honestly after the last time I checked on this, I think~ |
| 22:44 | <@froztbyte> | that said, I don't really keep up with the specifics |
| 22:45 | <@froztbyte> | I see an interesting article on lwn now and then when people link one somewhere |
| 22:45 | <@froztbyte> | and I'll delve if something breaks |
| 22:45 | | * froztbyte doesn't have enough spare cycles to do otherwise in-between all the firefighting |
| 23:00 | <@iospace> | oi |
| 23:00 | <@iospace> | froztbyte: |
| 23:01 | <@iospace> | 12:08:51 < froztbyte> gnolam: this is in line with what I was guessing, but I was feeling about as sensible as iospace sounds when her coffee runs out <--- what did you mean by this D< |
| 23:02 | <@froztbyte> | iospace: you get very silly when your caffeine runs out &| you get very tired |
| 23:02 | <@froztbyte> | and I'd felt about like that |
| 23:02 | <@iospace> | oh? |
| 23:03 | | * froztbyte hasn't eaten a proper meal in 3 days, and is going to make crackers with creamcheese just now before falling into bed |
| 23:03 | <@froztbyte> | iospace: well, this is the example that sprang to mind for me |
| 23:03 | <@froztbyte> | iospace: maybe it's observer bias |
| 23:03 | <@iospace> | ._. |
| 23:03 | <@iospace> | eat something you foole! |
| 23:03 | <&jerith> | froztbyte: Come stay with me for a week or two. Bunnee will make sure you'er properly fed. |
| 23:03 | <@froztbyte> | jerith: I actually need to ping you about that soon |
| 23:03 | <@froztbyte> | like, later |
| 23:04 | <@froztbyte> | sometime in the next few days |
| 23:04 | <&jerith> | But not later tonight. |
| 23:04 | <&jerith> | Because </awake> |
| 23:04 | <@froztbyte> | need to figure out where I'll be staying before||after alpha1's place |
| 23:04 | <@froztbyte> | err, not place, wedding |
| 23:04 | <@froztbyte> | see? |
| 23:04 | | * froztbyte encrackers |
| 23:04 | <@froztbyte> | iospace: too tired to make food. will worry about that in 10 hours. |
| 23:05 | <@iospace> | heh |
| 23:06 | <&jerith> | froztbyte: Seriously, she's been saving me from crackers and creamcheese at 1am a lot recently. Except I don't have crackers and creamcheese. |
| 23:06 | <&jerith> | So I'd either be hungry or driving down the road to a petrol station for stale pies or whatever. |
| 23:07 | <&jerith> | froztbyte: Also, come for Scaleconf. I think tickets are still cheap. |
| 23:10 | <@Haeroe> | "This compressor takes more time (~100x slower), but compresses around 5% better than zlib and better than any other zlib-compatible compressor we have found." |
| 23:11 | <@Haeroe> | Sounds like a worthwhile tradeoff |
| 23:11 | <~Vornicus> | Sometimes you need to bake it really, really well. |
| 23:12 | < jeroud> | Haeroe: If space is *really* tight and you only have zlib on the other side... |
| 23:14 | < jeroud> | Of course, if it's that important you probably have something better than zlib. |
| 23:22 | | Orthia [orthianz@3CF3A5.E1CD01.5A78C0.03128C] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 23:23 | < RichyB> | If you're running a CDN, serving up static files, it's great, |
| 23:25 | < RichyB> | e.g. you may serve a jQuery 1.9.1-min.js a hundred million times. With gzip -4 it's 33,745 bytes. With gzip -9 it's 32646 bytes. |
| 23:28 | < RichyB> | with zopfli it's 31691 bytes. |
| 23:29 | < RichyB> | You compress it *once* and serve the compressed version directly. |
| 23:35 | | Orthia [orthianz@3CF3A5.E1CD01.5A78C0.03128C] has joined #code |
| 23:35 | | mode/#code [+o Orthia] by ChanServ |
| 23:38 | <@RStamer> | ... |
| 23:38 | <@RStamer> | Because gzip is totally unsupported by most browsers now-a-days. |
| 23:53 | | Orthia [orthianz@3CF3A5.E1CD01.5A78C0.03128C] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| --- Log closed Sat Mar 02 00:00:06 2013 |