| --- Log opened Thu Nov 22 00:00:15 2012 |
| --- Day changed Thu Nov 22 2012 |
| 00:00 | <@simon_> | McMartin, are you into formal languages? |
| 00:00 | <@simon_> | AFAIR, NFAs, DFAs and regular expressions all have the same expressivity. |
| 00:01 | <@simon_> | so when I can construct a simple DFA for something, shouldn't I be able to construct some, perhaps not simple, regular expression that corresponds to it? |
| 00:01 | <&McMartin> | Yes |
| 00:01 | <&McMartin> | But I don't know if there's an easy algorithm for it. |
| 00:01 | <@simon_> | I don't know if there is one either. |
| 00:01 | <@simon_> | for regex->dfa there is. |
| 00:02 | <&McMartin> | Well, for regex->nfa there is, and for nfa->dfa there is |
| 00:02 | <@simon_> | right |
| 00:02 | <&McMartin> | But IIRC there's a hidden exponential in the nfa->dfa step, just one that "usually" doesn't matter. |
| 00:02 | <@simon_> | one compilers assignment this year is "make a DFA that matches binary strings whose integer value is divisible by 5" |
| 00:03 | <@Azash> | That's pretty simple, isn't it? |
| 00:03 | <&McMartin> | It's a lot simpler for decimal strings~ |
| 00:03 | <@simon_> | Azash, for "divisible by 4" it's really simple. |
| 00:03 | <&McMartin> | There's a trick for 5, I think, but I don't remember what it is. |
| 00:03 | <&McMartin> | Parity? |
| 00:04 | <@Azash> | All you need are 5 states, one for each value of value_so_far % 5 |
| 00:04 | <@simon_> | McMartin, I have my professor's solution which is pretty cool, but somewhat mathematical, which means if I give that to my students, they won't earn a method for creating regexes. so I thought I'd go the hard way by detecting a pattern. |
| 00:04 | <@simon_> | Azash, right. |
| 00:04 | <@simon_> | Azash, I figured a pattern would show after 5 steps. |
| 00:04 | <@simon_> | Azash, maybe the pattern wouldn't be very apparent after a few more. |
| 00:05 | <@Azash> | The edges are trivial by remembering that a new 0 means that you move to (value_so_far % 5 * 2) % 5 while a new 1 means you move to ((value_so_far % 5 * 2) + 1) % 5 |
| 00:05 | <@simon_> | Azash, for a "guessing the pattern", perhaps twice the amount. |
| 00:05 | <@simon_> | Azash, yes. |
| 00:08 | <@simon_> | my professor's argument is: reading a 0 is the same as multiplying by 2 while reading a 1 is the same as multiplying by 2 and adding 1. so for the remainder m, reading a 0 gives a remainder 2m (mod 5) and reading a 1 gives a remainder (2m+1) (mod 5). then the five remainders can act as nodes in the DFA graph and the transitions can somehow be derived also. |
| 00:08 | <@Azash> | Yep |
| 00:08 | <@Azash> | Sketching it up in MSP |
| 00:08 | <@simon_> | MSP? |
| 00:09 | <@simon_> | but I think in terms of discovering such a method, one must either have some number theory handy or detect the pattern "the hard way" (which is, detecting a method that doesn't obviously generalize to "divisible by N"). |
| 00:10 | <&McMartin> | That's generally true, I think, yes |
| 00:10 | <@Azash> | Discovering what kind of method? |
| 00:12 | <@simon_> | Azash, going from "divisible by 4" to "divisible by 5" by detecting a change in the bit pattern, without relying on number-theoretic formulations (e.g. modulo arithmetic). |
| 00:12 | <@Azash> | Ah |
| 00:12 | <@Azash> | Yeah, that's true |
| 00:12 | <@simon_> | I talked to one mathematician who hadn't taken an algorithms course but had solved 40+ Project Euler assignments... I started talking about dynamic programming and he asked me what it was. I told him about arrays. |
| 00:13 | <&McMartin> | Ah yes |
| 00:13 | <@simon_> | so basically he'd solved all the hard ones involving prime numbers and number theory, and pretty much left out the ones that demand a good run-time... well, these people are the other way around: they have had an algorithms class, but they suck at making up math :) |
| 00:14 | <@simon_> | (I am one of those, sadly.) |
| 00:14 | <&McMartin> | One of those golden, yet vaguely horrifying moments where you begin to realize that CS really *is* an actual philosophical discipline and not merely a trade. |
| 00:14 | <@simon_> | heh |
| 00:14 | | * Azash peers at his sketch of said DFA, ponders |
| 00:14 | <&McMartin> | I'm prone to it myself, but it really is amazing how much computer science takes itself for granted. |
| 00:15 | <@Azash> | Interesting |
| 00:15 | <@simon_> | one other assignment is: Imagine you have a regex operator phi that mismatches on everything. then the assignment is basically definining this operator in terms of sets. the result: you can't use it in any practically relevant regex. |
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| 00:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | How do you mean? |
| 00:15 | <@simon_> | that's philosophical. |
| 00:15 | <@simon_> | umm |
| 00:15 | <&McMartin> | Is that at me? |
| 00:15 | <@simon_> | (the phi operator is) |
| 00:16 | <&McMartin> | The phi operator is "reject state"? |
| 00:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | No, I mean, CS taking itself for granted |
| 00:16 | <&McMartin> | Ah, yes |
| 00:16 | <&McMartin> | Two parts of it, really |
| 00:16 | <&McMartin> | One is that there's some very strong cultural conventions we all share but that other people don't. |
| 00:17 | <@simon_> | if p rejects and x is a regex, p|x = x, px = p, xp = p, p* = epsilon |
| 00:17 | <@simon_> | ToxicFrog, what exactly do you mean by it taking itself for granted? |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | Resulting in, for instance, bioinformaticists learning Perl as their first language (augh) and naming all their variables $foo and $bar because that's what all the variables are named in the examples |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | He's asking me what I mean. I said it. |
| 00:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | simon_: er, that's what I'm asking McM about |
| 00:18 | <@simon_> | ah. :) |
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| 00:18 | | * simon_ 's horrifying first experience as a Java TA: explaining public static void main at the first session. |
| 00:18 | <@Azash> | Do you ever get that feeling when you notice something in a basic mathematical thought that ends up being minor but cool? |
| 00:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is why you don't open with Java, IMO. |
| 00:18 | <&McMartin> | The second is that a lot of core algorithmic work - including even the concept of breaking down an evaluation into steps or translating a mathematical function into something that a stored-program computer can directly handle... |
| 00:18 | <@simon_> | ToxicFrog, we open with Standard ML. ;-) Java is the second language. they just started. |
| 00:19 | <&McMartin> | ... is something we've internalized so far that it's as invisible as counting. |
| 00:19 | <&McMartin> | We never have "man. Assignable variables are kind of weird" moments. |
| 00:19 | <&McMartin> | Outside of multithreading, where they are "kind of a pain in the ass" |
| 00:20 | <@simon_> | McMartin, I ended the class by doing a null dereference, got a NullPointerException and asked what a pointer is and why you can have such an exception when java doesn't have pointers. ;-P |
| 00:21 | <&McMartin> | simon_: I'm now imagining the "wat" talk |
| 00:21 | <&McMartin> | "Let's talk about Java." |
| 00:21 | <@Azash> | Nullpointerexceptions are like 95% of errors for our freshmen before they learn how references work |
| 00:21 | <&McMartin> | Yup |
| 00:21 | <&McMartin> | Also, ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException is the new buffer overflow. |
| 00:22 | <&McMartin> | #pedantic |
| 00:22 | <&McMartin> | References ARE POINTERS. |
| 00:22 | <@Azash> | Well, at least it's an exception and not "well I bet you know what you're doing" :P |
| 00:22 | <&McMartin> | What languages that "don't have pointers" don't have is ARBITRARY POINTER ARITHMETIC. |
| 00:22 | <@Azash> | I thought the split was more about how they are accessed |
| 00:22 | <&McMartin> | Kinda |
| 00:22 | <~Vornicus> | in "don't have pointer |
| 00:22 | <~Vornicus> | er |
| 00:22 | <&McMartin> | You can make a good case that "reference to an array that you then index" is actually pointer arithmetic, just not *arbitrary* about it since it's bounds-checked. |
| 00:23 | <@Azash> | Also type enforced in something like Java |
| 00:23 | <&McMartin> | Sure |
| 00:23 | <&McMartin> | But really, even C++ *can* enforce types. And it often does! |
| 00:24 | <@Azash> | So we can agree that references are babby's first pointer |
| 00:24 | <@Azash> | :P |
| 00:24 | <&McMartin> | It lets you break the enforcement in various ways |
| 00:24 | <&McMartin> | But so does OCaml |
| 00:25 | | * Azash waves goodnight |
| 00:26 | <&McMartin> | It's actually kind of funny |
| 00:26 | <&McMartin> | A lot of the 8-bit chips were not that good at pointers |
| 00:26 | <&McMartin> | So you'd do things *like* Java arrays in the assembly code anyway. |
| 00:26 | <@simon_> | McMartin, right. so once you have arrays, you can simulate real pointer arithmetic on top of it. |
| 00:26 | <&McMartin> | Yes |
| 00:26 | <&McMartin> | But that's base-offset pairs. |
| 00:26 | <&McMartin> | You can't turn a base-offset pair into a new base, basically. |
| 00:27 | <&McMartin> | That's the big operation that C and C++ allow that "no pointers" languages don't. |
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| 00:30 | <@simon_> | right |
| 00:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: to me, the defining distinction between pointers and references is that pointers let you access both the data pointed to, and the pointer itself, while references only let you do the former. |
| 00:30 | <@simon_> | so I don't have the freedom to mess up my entire Java program in this simulation (only throw an OutOfBoundsException or mess up my simulation), right? |
| 00:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | And from that capability, you get things like pointer math. |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | simon: Mmmmmostly. |
| 00:31 | <@simon_> | McMartin, thanks for bringing another point of distinction between references and pointers. I've always just said that pointer arithmetic is the distinction without considering that array indexing is implicit arithmetic. |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | JNI will let you corrupt things. |
| 00:31 | <@simon_> | JNI? |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | Java Native Interface. |
| 00:32 | <&McMartin> | Also, IIRC, you can write Java bytecodes that many Java implementations don't bother verifying that will let you type-pun in unsafe ways. |
| 00:32 | <&McMartin> | They may have since fixed that~ |
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| 00:32 | <@simon_> | I suppose you could put all your program data in one big array and mess up everything good that way. |
| 00:33 | <&McMartin> | Java types are homogeneous and strongly typed at run-time |
| 00:35 | <@simon_> | I found a regex for bit strings that are divisible by integer 5. I am curious if deriving its optimal DFA gives the same result as my professor. my way is, of course, kind of tedious. |
| 00:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | "homogenous"? |
| 00:37 | <@simon_> | no, it doesn't work yet. |
| 00:38 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: Every element of an array is declared as the same type. |
| 00:38 | <&McMartin> | You can fill the array with subtype references if it's a type that allows subtypes, but then you have to use RTTI to take advantage of that. |
| 00:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah. Java *arrays* are homogenous. |
| 00:44 | <&McMartin> | Java Collections are *technically* homogeneous in that they are always Object~ |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | Java arrays for subtypables are also always arrays of references, which means that they're less homogeneous than C++ arrays |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | C++ arrays of Foo must be Exactly Type Foo, and if you try to assign a Bar to it, it will rewrite the vtable and hack out any fields that weren't part of Foo. |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | (If Bar inherits from Foo) |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | (C++ is really bad, yo) |
| 00:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | :gonk: |
| 00:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | I am glad my C++ days are behind me. |
| 00:46 | <~Vornicus> | oh wow |
| 00:46 | <~Vornicus> | That's... |
| 00:46 | <~Vornicus> | Damn |
| 00:47 | <&McMartin> | This is because a C++ array of Foo actually is a tightly packed array of Foo fields, unboxed. |
| 00:47 | <&McMartin> | If you wanted a *pointer to something interpretable as Foo* you'd have said so, righT? |
| 00:48 | <&McMartin> | So that means that foos[3] is actually memory location (&foos[0])+(3*sizeof(Foo)) |
| 00:48 | <~Vornicus> | I think we need something stronger than gonk |
| 00:48 | <&McMartin> | the sizeof() bit is of course done invisibly by the compiler, just like in C |
| 00:48 | <&McMartin> | If Bar inherits from Foo, sizeof(Bar) is not guaranteed to be sizeof(Foo), so of course that won't work! |
| 00:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: :stonk:? |
| 00:48 | <@simon_> | hmm |
| 00:49 | <~Vornicus> | :stonk: works. |
| 00:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | ... :c++: needs to be a cross between :stonk: and :pcgaming:, somehow. |
| 00:49 | <@simon_> | I think the regular expression for "bit string divisible by 5" is very big. |
| 00:49 | <&McMartin> | Oh, also, when you declare that array of Foo, the Foo default constructor is called once for every element in the array. |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | And when it leaves scope, the corresponding destructors are called. |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | Yes. C++ arrays know their bounds, and have to in order for the semantics to work. |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | But it won't tell you because C doesn't. |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | (Actual solution: use std::vector, heathen) |
| 00:51 | <&McMartin> | (std::vector has the same problem re: nonpointer contents, but the solution to that is to load it with boost::smart_ptrs) |
| 00:51 | <~Vornicus> | simon_: well, thinking, you need to, uh. |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: All of the batshittery in C++ is actually justified with logic that looks OK as long as you don't consider it in context |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | As such, I believe that :c++: is actually :scigonk: |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | Which is :science: mixed with :gonk: and the lightning is going the other direction. |
| 00:54 | <~Vornicus> | So, when in decimal, you can find numbers divisible by 11 by adding/subtracting alternating digits, and if the result is divisible by 11, then so is the original number. |
| 00:55 | <~Vornicus> | so if you ahve a decimal number you split it up abababababab, and add the as together and add the bs together and subtract |
| 00:56 | <~Vornicus> | You can do the same thing for 101, except that you have to take the digits in pairs. aabbaabbaabbaabb. Take each pair of digits as a single number. |
| 00:58 | <@simon_> | Vornicus, adding every other digit seems non-regular to me. |
| 00:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: remind me, if you statically allocate an array, does sizeof() give you the number of elements, the total number of bytes allocated, or sizeof(void*)? |
| 00:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | ISTR in C it gives you the number of elements, but it's been a while. |
| 00:58 | <~Vornicus> | This trick also works in binary. |
| 00:59 | <~Vornicus> | But yes, adding stuff up is probably not that great an idea, but it does tell you that there's a 4-bit cycle here. |
| 00:59 | <@simon_> | Vornicus, I still can't imagine how this would work for arbitrary large numbers using a regular expression. |
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| 01:00 | <@simon_> | Vornicus, hmm, a 4-cycle even? |
| 01:01 | <~Vornicus> | So if you can find a way to be, after every 4 bits, in one of five states, you should be able to pull it off, but I'm not sure how that works in a regular grammar |
| 01:02 | <@simon_> | I had imagined that "divisible by N" would lead to a minimum number of DFA states of O(N), which might suggest that the size of an equivalent regular expression is some O(f(N))... shrug. I'm on deep water. |
| 01:02 | <@simon_> | right |
| 01:03 | <@simon_> | I would have imagined after every 5 bits. |
| 01:03 | <~Vornicus> | 16 = 1 (mod 5) |
| 01:04 | <~Vornicus> | Nope. Cycles are length n-1 at most for prime n. |
| 01:06 | <~Vornicus> | (long story short: fuck yeah, fermat's little theorem) |
| 01:15 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: Total number of bytes allocated. |
| 01:15 | <&McMartin> | I believe, I'd have to check. |
| 01:15 | <&McMartin> | It's idiomatic to do this with static geometry in OpenGL code, but I need to confirm what argument those calls *take* |
| 01:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | ben@thoth:/tmp$ ./a.out |
| 01:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | sizeof(uint32_t[8]) = 32 |
| 01:24 | <~Vornicus> | simon_: even easier, somehow, is 7: it's a 3-bit cycle. |
| 01:29 | <&McMartin> | OK then |
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| 01:36 | <@simon_> | Vornicus, funny. |
| 01:38 | <@simon_> | Vornicus, maybe the distance from n to some binary exponent determines the length of the cycle. |
| 01:38 | <@simon_> | Vornicus, maybe not. |
| 01:43 | <~Vornicus> | if n*x = 2^k - 1 for some integer x, then n has a k length cycle |
| 01:43 | <~Vornicus> | at most. |
| 01:44 | <@simon_> | cool, right. |
| 01:48 | <~Vornicus> | it may be some factor of that. This also works in decimal: 7 has a length 6 cycle because 10^6 - 1 = 142857 * 7 |
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| 02:50 | <&McMartin> | Oh, I guess I haven't yet gotten to the part TF gave up on TAG at |
| 02:51 | <&McMartin> | mischan |
| 03:12 | <~Vornicus> | Oh, sexy. |
| 03:12 | | * Vornicus makes ship designs for Galactic Vorntiers |
| 03:35 | | * Vornicus can't think of a fourth shape. |
| 03:39 | <~Vornicus> | So far I've got "jet fighter", "trimaran", and "saucer" |
| 03:42 | <@Alek> | Sphere? |
| 03:42 | <@Alek> | Cigar? |
| 03:42 | <@Alek> | Random Assembly of Components? or do they have to be aerodynamic? |
| 03:44 | <~Vornicus> | I guess I should describe here, the shapes are a single solid color, with white highlights |
| 03:45 | <@Alek> | ah, 2d? |
| 03:45 | <@Alek> | or 3d? |
| 03:45 | <@Alek> | this actually shoulda been my first question. |
| 03:46 | <~Vornicus> | 2d, straight top down view. |
| 03:55 | | * Vornicus finds a fourth design. One more for the neutral faction and we'll have ourselves a party. |
| 04:05 | <@Alek> | what's the fourth? |
| 04:05 | <@Alek> | ah. how about a torus? |
| 04:05 | <@Alek> | possibly with crossbar. or cross. XD |
| 04:05 | <~Vornicus> | The fourth is, well, I know I've seen it properly but it looks vaguely like the Marathon logo |
| 04:05 | < Reiv_> | Diamonds. |
| 04:05 | < Reiv_> | IMperial Star Destroyer style. |
| 04:06 | <~Vornicus> | What's in my hand? Two spaceships to that planet you love. Look again: the spaceships are now diamonds. |
| 04:08 | < thalass> | ... |
| 04:08 | <@Alek> | >_> |
| 04:11 | <@Tamber> | xD |
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| 04:25 | | * Vornicus goes with it, sort of. |
| 04:30 | <@Alek> | huh. |
| 04:30 | <@Alek> | Win8 is less than half the price of 7. |
| 04:30 | <@Alek> | and I don't even need Pro. |
| 04:30 | | * EvilDarkLord snickers at a language that's supposed to be shown to be in DP. "Given a graph, is it true that it <condition which is in Co-NP>, but <condition which is in NP>". Why yes, this is the intersection of languages which are in Co-NP and NP. |
| 04:30 | <@Alek> | should be able to get by on just the base version. (not RT). |
| 04:31 | <@Alek> | $100 bucks. |
| 04:31 | <@Alek> | it's compatible with older programs, which RT isn't. |
| 04:31 | | * Alek ponders muchly. |
| 04:38 | < Reiv_> | Alek: This time round, they're not trying to make huge profit off the upgrade. |
| 04:38 | | * Vornicus preps his images for posting. |
| 04:38 | < Reiv_> | They're trying to trap you into the ecosystem they're forging with phones and tablets~ |
| 04:38 | < Reiv_> | (Seriously though, not sure why you'd /bother/ with win8.) |
| 04:43 | <~Vornicus> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/7861878@N06/8206885159/in/photostream and here we are. |
| 04:43 | <@Alek> | heh. |
| 04:43 | <@Alek> | well, win8 does have better memory management, apparently. |
| 04:43 | <@Alek> | noticeably so, even. |
| 04:43 | <@Alek> | hrm. |
| 04:43 | | * Alek checks out additional memory for his machine. |
| 04:44 | <@Alek> | I have 2 sticks in, 4 slots total. |
| 04:44 | <@Alek> | 2 compatible sticks found, only slightly different stats. |
| 04:44 | <@Alek> | http://www.newegg.com/Product/Productcompare.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100006519%2050002 204%2040000147%20600006107&IsNodeId=1&Description=memory%20ddr2&bop=And&CompareI temList=147%7C20-220-548%5E20-220-548-TS%2C20-220-279%5E20-220-279-TS |
| 04:45 | <@Alek> | given that my existing sticks are CAS latency 4, and voltage 2.1, according to EPP #1 of cpuz... which of the 2 would be better (if they can be paired with the existing), and would they be better as primary or secondary sticks? |
| 04:45 | <@Alek> | dual-channel. |
| 04:47 | <@Alek> | I'm looking at same-manufacturer only, too. for now. |
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| 11:44 | | * TheWatcher eyes 3PS |
| 11:45 | <@TheWatcher> | ... so very true |
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| 16:36 | <@Tarinaky> | "mmm. Yeah. I know what some of these words mean" |
| 16:39 | <@gnolam> | TheWatcher: I'd say it depends on whose legacy code. :P |
| 16:39 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 16:54 | <@Tarinaky> | Anyone know where I can find out more about Light Field Descriptor and Multidimensional Scaling? |
| 16:55 | <@Tarinaky> | I think I have a fuzzy understanding of the former and the wikipedia article on the latter isn't great. |
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| 21:54 | <@gnolam> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK62I-4cuSY |
| 21:55 | <@Tarinaky> | Just watched that >.> |
| 22:19 | < AnnoDomini> | Is there something like Open Pizza Tycoon Deluxe? |
| 22:27 | <@gnolam> | IIRC that was a crap game, so... |
| 22:30 | < AnnoDomini> | I wouldn't know. It's kinda hard to get by the interface. :P |
| 22:30 | < AnnoDomini> | I've had less trouble with Dwarf Fortress. :V |
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| 23:03 | < AnnoDomini> | gnolam: That's hilarious! |
| 23:12 | <@gnolam> | It's scarily accurate. |
| 23:12 | < AnnoDomini> | That's why it's hilarious. |
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| --- Log closed Fri Nov 23 00:00:52 2012 |