| --- Log opened Mon Jul 26 00:00:20 2010 |
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| --- Log closed Mon Jul 26 03:52:03 2010 |
| --- Log opened Mon Jul 26 03:52:13 2010 |
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| 16:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Holy shit: http://www.zachtronicsindustries.com/ |
| 16:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's an entire site of Manufactoria-style games. |
| 16:52 | < Orth> | Yes. |
| 16:52 | < Orth> | The steam robots is kind of amusing. |
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| 17:31 | | mode/#code [+o Attilla] by Reiver |
| 18:47 | | * Vornicus-Latens starts on "ruckingenur" |
| 18:48 | < Orthia> | VRON |
| 18:48 | < Orthia> | Would you mind helping me with an Excel Sheet, if I can make the rules of probability a little less painful? |
| 18:49 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Absolutely |
| 18:49 | | * Orthia is trying to figure out the odds of X dice rolling Y successes. Isn't worried about Crazy Awesome Unusual Odds, just the 'reasonably expected' stuff. From 2 to 12. |
| 18:50 | < Orthia> | So we can go with the following: 1/2 chance of +1 success, 1/12 chance of +2 success, 1/72 chance of +3 success. I care not about things beyond that point, the odds are too low to care. |
| 18:51 | < Orthia> | So presuming we can combine those values to get an average score per dice, I'm pretty sure I can hit a binomial distribution, y/n? |
| 18:54 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | technically a "multinomial" distribution - since each thing has many different possible success chances... |
| 18:54 | < Orthia> | Ah, I suppose. |
| 18:54 | < Orthia> | Though each individual dice has the same. |
| 18:54 | < Orthia> | See, I realised you may have a specific point about the pain of dice pools - say I have one gun with a chance of hitting once, 50/50. |
| 18:55 | < Orthia> | Adding a second gun to that is not too bad - small improvement to hit with any at all, and if you get lucky you hit with both. |
| 18:56 | < Orthia> | When it was suggested one add five guns, for a six-gun broadside... suddenly the dice pool could be going from 6 or 7 to 11 or 12. And you're still aiming at DV 3... |
| 18:56 | < Orthia> | Suddenly you start to look like you're going to hit with all of them, 'cuz the curve is in your favor. This... doesn't seem quite how I'd intended matters, so I want to see where the breakpoints are. |
| 19:02 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | So, the question is, if I have this right: you have a 6-skill turret, and by adding more guns to the turret you give it +1 skill each, and you're wondering how this shakes out against (say) a DV 3 target. |
| 19:03 | < simon_> | what game is that? |
| 19:08 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Reiver's own game. |
| 19:09 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Orthia: I take it your success requirements for k hits are k - 2? |
| 19:09 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | so, say, to get 3 hits you need 5 rolls? |
| 19:11 | < Orthia> | No, they tend to need roughly 2K |
| 19:11 | < Orthia> | 3 hits tends to want 6, 4 tends to want 8, and so on |
| 19:11 | < Tarinaky> | Orthia: Change it to 4+ on a d6 with no exploding 6s |
| 19:11 | < Tarinaky> | -Or- make it 5+ with exploding 6s. |
| 19:12 | < Orthia> | We could for the purpose of testing. |
| 19:12 | < Orthia> | The exploding die skews it to be better than precisely 1/2, but this is intentional. |
| 19:12 | < Orthia> | I don't actually want a game where you always succeed 50% of the time; I want it to be slightly better than that. |
| 19:12 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | (the actual expected value is 3/5) |
| 19:13 | < Tarinaky> | The exploding 6 is about equal to +1 on an extra number. |
| 19:13 | < Orthia> | (Interesting! I've got a 60% success rate? I'll take it. [Thank you for figuring that out]) |
| 19:13 | | * Vornicus-Latens misread it. |
| 19:13 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | er, miswrote it |
| 19:13 | < Orthia> | Tarinaky: Not quite: If it was, the proportion would be 2/3rds |
| 19:13 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | To get three hits on a DV 3 target, you need 5 successes, from this gun. |
| 19:13 | < Orthia> | Right. |
| 19:13 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Ok. |
| 19:13 | < Orthia> | Oh, heh |
| 19:13 | < Tarinaky> | Orthia: About. |
| 19:14 | < Orthia> | I see how I did it poorly, but yeah, you're onto it Vorny |
| 19:14 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Ok, give me a few moments. |
| 19:15 | < Orthia> | NP |
| 19:30 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | http://paste.pocoo.org/show/241908/ |
| 19:30 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Have some data. |
| 19:31 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | More guns is down, more hits is right. |
| 19:32 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | As you can see, the chance of hitting with all the guns is significant throughout. |
| 19:34 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Hm, Infiniminer: "Team Dwarf Fortress" |
| 19:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | BSE really needs a size-1 crossover connector |
| 19:45 | | Orth [orthianz@Nightstar-f1aeb5f6.xnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 19:47 | < Orth> | Vorn: That's interesting... |
| 19:47 | < Orth> | On the other hand, as you've noted, to hit DV 3 half the time, you really only want 5 dice |
| 19:48 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-48e63a4f.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 19:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...hmm. I'm having trouble figuring out how to bring a chamber up to pressure and then isolate it from the rest of the system without using the manual override. |
| 19:52 | < Orth> | Does it need to maintain pressure, or is this cannons? |
| 19:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aha. I see why they gave me two boilers, now. |
| 19:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | And it's crouch, which I didn't think was a pressure sink, but apparently it is |
| 19:53 | < Orth> | Yeah, it's a most leeging annoying pressure sink~ |
| 19:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ffff |
| 19:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, so: crouching robots with low-mounted robots can only hit other crouching robots? |
| 19:57 | | * Vornicus-Latens can't figure out the steam thing at all. |
| 19:58 | | Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: @AnnoDomini, simon_, @Reiver, Alek, @Kazriko, @jerith |
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| 19:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | Seems pretty straightforward to me, just hard |
| 19:59 | | Netsplit over, joins: ~Reiver, @jerith, Alek, @AnnoDomini, @Kazriko |
| 19:59 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Like, I /think/ I'm hooking stuff up, but it doesn't do anything? |
| 20:00 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Walking worked, the buzzsaw... kinda worked, but only hit well the first time, and the gun doesn't seem to work at all. |
| 20:00 | < Orth> | They're poorly described. |
| 20:01 | < Orth> | Buzzsaw takes an age and a half to get back up to speed, and can't while a robot is against you. |
| 20:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Gun needs pressure applied to the top connector to reload after firing, and -lots- of pressure intermittently on the bottom to fire - a steam tank + pressure valve works well there. |
| 20:02 | < Orth> | The gun, easiest to rig it so you get constant pressure to the top valve, and burst pressure to the lower one. |
| 20:02 | < Orth> | You can do a complicated shunt back-and-forth to put steam to the right hole as needed, but it doesn't care if you just hose the top hole steadily anyway. |
| 20:03 | < Orth> | (If it had one thing, I wish it had a pipe squeeze.) |
| 20:03 | < Orth> | (So many times you need "Some steam", not "half my steam" >_<) |
| 20:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok,finished the second level, but I'm not happy about it |
| 20:05 | < Orth> | Yeah; a lot of the times it's a pretty horrible setup you get. |
| 20:05 | < Orth> | It's not as... elegant... as the conveyor game |
| 20:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | I consider any solution where I have to resort to manual control to be a failure, but that's what I had to do for #2, and it looks like #3 is heading there as well |
| 20:11 | < Orth> | Yeah, no |
| 20:11 | < Orth> | The manual control is pretty much hugely needed throughout. |
| 20:11 | < Orth> | The 'challenge' is in that there is but one lever~ |
| 20:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hah! Solved it without manual control |
| 20:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Each side had boiler -> tank -> valve -> { cannon, vent x3 } |
| 20:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | The cannons fire, provoking the enemy into charging. Then the vents depressurize them fast enough to reload before the tanks are at pressure again, causing it to fire a second time and win. |
| 20:18 | | * ToxicFrog completes #4 and, apparently, the game |
| 20:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | I only needed the lever for mission #2, though. |
| 20:21 | < Orth> | Yah, game was a wee tad too short. |
| 20:21 | < Orth> | Greatly so. :/ |
| 20:21 | | * ToxicFrog stabs Magnum Opus. Don't force me to do a packet capture just to download your game, goddamnit! |
| 20:22 | < Orth> | O.o |
| 20:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Nvm, got it from the cache |
| 20:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | (I save them for offline play) |
| 20:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...Codex of Alchemy doesn't seem to work for me; I can't rotate arms with ctrl. |
| 20:27 | | Stalker [Z@26ECB6.A4B64C.298B52.D80DA0] has joined #code |
| 20:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh, there we go |
| 20:30 | < Stalker> | Hi? |
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| 20:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | 'aftenoon |
| 20:48 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 20:49 | <@Vornicus> | Things that suck about these games: 1. they're waay too much like real life, 2. they don't save your designs automatically. |
| 20:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | (2) I agree with, but I don't get (1) |
| 21:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...ok, maybe I get it with kohctpyktop. |
| 21:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Fuck gate design forever. |
| 21:02 | <@Vornicus> | By 1, I mean, well, yes, kohctpyktop, and the engiwhatsit, and... |
| 21:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | "engiwhatsit"? |
| 21:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Of the three I've played (kohctpyktop, steam, alchemy) I rather enjoyed steam and alchemy. |
| 21:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | And I might have enjoyed kohctpyktop if it didn't cause Xilinx and Cadence flashbacks. |
| 21:05 | <@Vornicus> | "ruckingenur" |
| 21:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh, the reverse-engineering game. |
| 21:23 | | Gruber is now known as gnolam |
| 23:05 | <@Vornicus> | Somebody should beat Toady with Infiniminer. The graphics aren't, you know, /epic/, but at least they're a bit more sensible than EXTREEM ASCII ART |
| 23:06 | <@Vornicus> | Looks like it was easy to do, too. |
| 23:08 | | * TheWatcher will be over here making no comment whatsoever. |
| 23:09 | <@Vornicus> | ? |
| 23:09 | | * Vornicus wonders what your comment would be anyway! |
| 23:15 | <@TheWatcher> | Merely related to my long-standing position on DF's user-hostile UI |
| 23:17 | <@Vornicus> | It's not very often that I meet something where opening the source would measurably /improve/ the user interface, but DF meets it. |
| 23:19 | <@TheWatcher> | If you attached a device to your computer that, at specific game-triggered times, poked you in the eyes, it would improve DF's UI. |
| 23:20 | < Namegduf> | This is making me want to play DF more. |
| 23:20 | | * Namegduf loved NetHack |
| 23:21 | <@Vornicus> | Nethack isn't nearly as hostile in the UI. |
| 23:21 | < Namegduf> | Ah. |
| 23:21 | < Namegduf> | What about vim? |
| 23:21 | < Namegduf> | I like vim, too. |
| 23:21 | <@Vornicus> | It's got a tough learning curve, but it's not actively hostile. |
| 23:21 | <@Vornicus> | Not vim either, really. |
| 23:22 | <@Vornicus> | vim is designed in a lot of ways for efficiency, and it does pretty damn well at it. |
| 23:23 | <@Vornicus> | It's not /easy/ to use by any measure, and it's not /obvious/ either, but once you get going it's very good at what it does. |
| 23:23 | <@Vornicus> | DF's interface induces only rage. |
| 23:28 | | Thaqui [Thaqui@27B34E.D54D49.F53FA1.6A113C] has joined #code |
| 23:28 | < gnolam> | And hints at a generally bad program design, too. |
| 23:28 | <@Vornicus> | It's neither efficient nor unobtrusive nor simple nor well-organized nor obvious. It simultaneously puts too much and too little information onto the screen. |
| 23:29 | < Namegduf> | Wow. |
| 23:31 | < Tarinaky> | Eh. Dwarf Fortresses UI isn't bad. |
| 23:31 | < Tarinaky> | It's just impenetrable. |
| 23:31 | <@Vornicus> | Oh, it's bad. |
| 23:32 | < Tarinaky> | It's Microsoft Notepad bad. That's all. |
| 23:32 | <@Vornicus> | Notepad is actually a pretty good interface. |
| 23:32 | <@Vornicus> | It doesn't /do/ much, but neither does it need to! |
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| 23:50 | < gnolam> | Tarinaky: Like Vorn says, it simultaneously puts too much and too little information on the screen. It's horribly inconsistent. Even the most common tasks can be hidden away behind half a dozen interactions. |
| 23:50 | < gnolam> | Etc. |
| 23:55 | < Tarinaky> | It's still more fun than a poke in the eye. |
| 23:55 | < Tarinaky> | Which I do believe was the comparison being made. |
| 23:56 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:57 | <@TheWatcher[T-2]> | No, I was saying that a poke in the eye would be an /improvement/. |
| 23:58 | < Tarinaky> | I disagree. I would rather play Dwarf Fortress as it is now than suffer a blindness inducing injury. |
| 23:59 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| --- Log closed Tue Jul 27 00:00:20 2010 |