| --- Log opened Thu Mar 19 00:00:27 2009 |
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| 04:41 | < User> | Hallo to all. |
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| 04:43 | | dogapult [~dogapult@Nightstar-5308.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #code |
| 04:44 | < dogapult> | hello to people in room. |
| 04:44 | < ToxicFrog> | 'evening |
| 04:45 | | * Vornicus greets the canine seige engine. |
| 04:45 | < dogapult> | I have a random question for all who care to try to answer. if you had 20k to spend on a used car, but it had to be interesting, rare, and radically different (oh, and registered in the USA) what would you buy? |
| 04:46 | < dogapult> | Hello Vornicus and ToxicFrog. |
| 04:46 | < Derakon> | Meeting those requirements is tricky. |
| 04:46 | <@Vornicus> | a Stingray. |
| 04:46 | < Derakon> | Most of the interesting, rare, and different cars I would consider owning cost more than $20k used. |
| 04:46 | < Derakon> | A DeLorean, for example. |
| 04:46 | < dogapult> | oh, I forgot reliable. |
| 04:47 | < Derakon> | What's wrong with regular cars? |
| 04:47 | < dogapult> | as a car enthusiast, everything. |
| 04:47 | < Derakon> | I'm quite fond of my used hybrid Civic, which I got for $12k. |
| 04:47 | < Derakon> | Ah. |
| 04:47 | < dogapult> | that's the problem. |
| 04:48 | < dogapult> | most cars today are just so Boring. |
| 04:48 | < dogapult> | thats why I own a 1963 VW Beetle. |
| 04:48 | < dogapult> | :D |
| 04:49 | < dogapult> | and it appears I've alienated everyone, and now they ignore me. Sorry all! |
| 04:49 | <@Vornicus> | This channel is also about code. being, you know. #code |
| 04:50 | < ToxicFrog> | I'm not sure how much interest there is in cars in this channel. |
| 04:50 | < Derakon> | And it's a pretty quiet place. |
| 04:50 | < dogapult> | yes. I've noticed. |
| 04:50 | <@Vornicus> | Quite, this is not #cars |
| 04:50 | < dogapult> | apologies. |
| 04:50 | <@Vornicus> | I don't think there is a #cars |
| 04:51 | < dogapult> | damn, I was just going to ask. |
| 04:51 | < Derakon> | There might be an #lcars, but that would be Star Trek. >.> |
| 04:51 | < dogapult> | >.< |
| 04:51 | < Derakon> | If you're just looking for general conversation, I think you want the bar. |
| 04:51 | < Derakon> | #nightstar_bar, right? |
| 04:51 | < ToxicFrog> | Yep |
| 04:51 | < ToxicFrog> | Not sure how active it is this time of night |
| 04:52 | < dogapult> | apologies for bothering all. Take Care! *please return to your regularly scheduled #code chat* |
| 04:52 | <@Vornicus> | So anyway I applied Science to the PHP escaping problem. |
| 04:53 | < Derakon> | Did you see Jerith's post? |
| 04:53 | <@Vornicus> | The results were indistinguishable from the null hypothesis. |
| 04:53 | <@Vornicus> | Yes, and responded to it. |
| 04:53 | < Derakon> | Ahh, you'd dropped off the first page on my friendslist. |
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| 04:54 | <@Vornicus> | I actually got the opposite results, if you count a 1% change in a process that took anywhere between 5 and 14 seconds a run enough to count as results. |
| 04:54 | | * Derakon facepalms. |
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| 05:03 | <@Vornicus> | Gah wiring up events is boring boring boring |
| 05:06 | < Derakon> | Events? |
| 05:09 | <@Vornicus> | Doing VB homework. Gotta tell it what to do when this button is clicked, when that thing loses focus... |
| 05:09 | <@Vornicus> | That the actual activities are all of three lines long doesn't help. |
| 05:09 | < Derakon> | Ahh. |
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| 06:00 | <@jerith> | VB makes me sad. :-( |
| 06:01 | <@Vornicus> | It is an unbelievably wordy language. |
| 06:02 | <@jerith> | It manages to get almost every single thing wrong. |
| 06:03 | < McMartin> | That's too bad, because in 1995 it was ten years ahead of its time, and it's absolutely criminal how long it took everyone else to catch up. |
| 06:04 | < McMartin> | (Wiring up events in non-VB languages is still boring except it all breaks horribly when you don't do it and the signatures are all twelve times as long!) |
| 06:04 | < McMartin> | (Or you can link in 30 MB of libraries, as long as your code was written in the last two years) |
| 06:05 | <@Vornicus> | JS has a pretty good event model. |
| 06:05 | < Derakon> | But it fails everywhere else~ |
| 06:05 | <@Vornicus> | And it does functions as first-class objects approximately as well as can possibly be done. |
| 06:06 | < McMartin> | What it doesn't have is any kind of consistent GUI librarie. |
| 06:06 | <@jerith> | VB's killer app was always building GUIs for things. |
| 06:06 | < McMartin> | Instead, it has four GUI libraries, all of whose functions have identical names but incompatible contracts. |
| 06:06 | < McMartin> | jerith: Yeah. That's the bit where I'm claiming "ten years ahead of its time" |
| 06:07 | | * jerith nods. |
| 06:07 | < McMartin> | Because they got it basically right in VB 5, and the next piece of software by anyone that got remotely close to it in utility was Glade. |
| 06:07 | < macdjord> | [/lurk]Perl forever![lurk] |
| 06:07 | <@Vornicus> | Blech, type warts |
| 06:07 | <@jerith> | It's never been very good at anything else and there have been better GUI-builders for ages. |
| 06:07 | < Derakon> | Vorn: better than typeless warts like PHP has~ |
| 06:07 | <@Vornicus> | Der: No arguments there! |
| 06:08 | | * Vornicus likes Ruby's scope warts. |
| 06:08 | < McMartin> | The first GUI builder I actually liked was Qt Designer 4, and that's unnervingly recent. |
| 06:08 | < McMartin> | (And it does Better than VB's model because its springs are actually sensible and I could use them.) |
| 06:08 | <@jerith> | Delphi's GUI builder is pretty ggod. |
| 06:08 | <@jerith> | *good |
| 06:08 | < McMartin> | (Glade's were always a matter of painful guesswork for me, and half the time I had to compromise my design to get something I could actually realize as code.) |
| 06:08 | < McMartin> | (I am beginning to realize that this was in part GTK+'s fault.) |
| 06:09 | < McMartin> | Haven't used Delphi for much, I must admit, so that's a gap in my experience. |
| 06:09 | <@jerith> | I always preferred it to VB, at least. |
| 06:09 | < McMartin> | VB didn't handle resizable windows well. |
| 06:09 | <@jerith> | But that was around '97-'02. |
| 06:10 | < McMartin> | That's still early enough that you wouldn't be as bitter as I am~ |
| 06:10 | <@jerith> | I've since realised that I don't really like GUIs at all, and now avoid them wherever possible. |
| 06:10 | < McMartin> | I used VB5 as a target platform while doing C++ develepment in 1996. |
| 06:10 | <@Vornicus> | I like GUIs but I'm very, very picky about them. |
| 06:10 | < Derakon> | Heh. |
| 06:10 | <@Vornicus> | I have actually never seen a file manager that I like. |
| 06:10 | <@jerith> | OT rant: |
| 06:10 | < McMartin> | The next UI designer I could deal with didn't show up until 2008. |
| 06:12 | <@jerith> | High school CS in this country is a choice between Delphi (tied to Windows, unmaintained, proprietary) and Java (possibly the worse language to teach programming in this side of INTERCAL). |
| 06:12 | < McMartin> | C++ is worse. |
| 06:12 | < McMartin> | In fact, if any topic can be taught in Java at all, C++ is a worse choice. |
| 06:13 | < Derakon> | Integrating assembly with higher-level languages~? |
| 06:13 | <@jerith> | On top of that, the Java environment is a crappy "IDE" thing that enforces crap formatting, uses JDK1.3 or something and crashes a lot. |
| 06:13 | < Derakon> | Oh, wait, right. You added a proviso. |
| 06:13 | < Derakon> | See, I should be in bed. |
| 06:14 | <@jerith> | McMartin: C++ has the advantage that you can teach the basics in C. |
| 06:14 | < McMartin> | ... then you're not teaching C++~ |
| 06:14 | < Derakon> | You're teaching a subset of it! |
| 06:14 | < McMartin> | More seriously, I've TAed the same class twice, once in C++, once in Java. |
| 06:14 | < McMartin> | In both classes, my office hours remained packed. |
| 06:14 | < McMartin> | HOwever, in the Java class, 100% of my questions were about the topic at hand. |
| 06:14 | < McMartin> | In the other, 98% of them were about wild pointers or STL misuse. |
| 06:14 | <@jerith> | Whereas in Java you have to either explain public static void main in a class upfront or live with voodoo. |
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| 06:15 | < Derakon> | I believe my college has switched to using Python for its intro CS course. |
| 06:15 | < Derakon> | Anyway! Bed. |
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| 06:15 | <@jerith> | 'Night Der. |
| 06:16 | <@jerith> | Also, I must go get some breakfast and renew the lease on my flat. |
| 06:16 | < McMartin> | That's not particularly voodoo anymore than char **argv is. |
| 06:16 | <@Vornicus> | the community college uses JS, which is not too bad. |
| 06:17 | <@jerith> | McMartin: True. Which is why I'd much rather start with a decent multiparadigm language. |
| 06:17 | <@Vornicus> | It is a surprisingly clean language. |
| 06:17 | <@jerith> | Like Python. |
| 06:17 | <@jerith> | My opinions on JS will forever be tainted by the horrible environments in grew up in. |
| 06:18 | < McMartin> | Scheme would be my choice for maximum unfamiliarity, but Python is also good. |
| 06:18 | | * jerith flees in the direction of food. |
| 06:18 | < McMartin> | JS I would reject because it uses prototype-based inheritance, and nobody else in the universe does. |
| 06:18 | <@jerith> | Scheme's also good, although I don't know it well enough to make pronouncements. |
| 06:18 | < McMartin> | If you're going to teach OO design it should be with the smallest, most rigid subset, which is actually quite close to Java's. |
| 06:19 | < McMartin> | (Drop interfaces) |
| 06:19 | < McMartin> | Scheme is used for one of the classic textbooks for multidisciplinary introductions to CS. |
| 06:20 | < McMartin> | But yeah, either go from something like that through data structures to C and assembly, or start at the bare metal and work up, ending with functional programming. |
| 07:07 | <@Vornicus> | BORING AS SHIT |
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| 07:08 | <@Vornicus> | Though this one could use a bit of Actual Programming. |
| 07:08 | | * Vornicus hunts for VB's regular expressions thingy. |
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| 17:39 | < NSGuest-63> | 08:37 <@ToxicFrog> McMartin: what's signal connection in VB like, anyways? |
| 17:39 | < NSGuest-63> | I don't know about VB.Net, but in VB 5/6 it's named functions. |
| 17:39 | < NSGuest-63> | Predefined actions, each action calls a method. |
| 17:40 | < NSGuest-63> | No multi-arity; you have to write each function as a call to your single implementation if you do it that way. |
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| 18:39 | < ToxicFrog> | "multiarity"? |
| 19:04 | < McMartin> | multiple arity - "nothing gets to be many-to-one" |
| 19:05 | < McMartin> | That is, you can't do the equivalent of what is in Qt wiring multiple signals to the same slot. |
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| 19:46 | < ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 19:46 | < ToxicFrog> | IOW, this is the signal hookup scheme I've been faking in my GTK usage for ages~ |
| 20:13 | <@Derakon> | Oooh, apparently Nintendo's net-enabled DS (the DSi) is going to get an app store. |
| 20:14 | <@Derakon> | A pity I'd almost certainly not be able to get a developer license, even assuming I could afford it. |
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| 20:55 | | * McMartin prepares RegMon. |
| 20:55 | < McMartin> | This is going to be a horrible slaughter. ;_; |
| 20:58 | | * Molgorn struggles to avoid making a Pokemon joke, but only succeeds in converting it to meta |
| 20:59 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 21:00 | | * McMartin then learns it is the wrong program |
| 21:00 | | * McMartin downloads Process Monitor instead. |
| 21:02 | | * Molgorn struggles to avoid making a lizard joke, but only succeeds in converting it to meta |
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| 21:14 | < ToxicFrog> | McMartin: which one is it that's a superset of the other, Crossover Games or Crossover Pro? |
| 21:15 | < McMartin> | ... I don't actually recall |
| 21:15 | <@Derakon> | I think they're actually optimised for different use cases. |
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| --- Log closed Fri Mar 20 00:00:39 2009 |