| --- Log opened Wed Jan 16 00:00:18 2013 |
| 00:04 | < othila> | I've actually got a game lined up so I'm getting my companies configured |
| 00:04 | < othila> | haven't built a new frame in a long time, though |
| 00:05 | < MittenNinja> | Nice man! |
| 00:05 | < MittenNinja> | I haven't played in quite awhile |
| 00:06 | < MittenNinja> | I just started throwing some pieces together last week, othewise it's been at least 4 months |
| 00:35 | | MittenNinja [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-eca6a0cb.co.comcast.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Page closed] |
| 00:58 | | KarolineDianne [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-ea654a15.hr.cox.net] has joined #mf0 |
| 00:58 | < KarolineDianne> | Oops |
| 00:58 | < KarolineDianne> | I did it again gaiz |
| 00:58 | | * KarolineDianne posted on her MF0 RPG thread. |
| 01:13 | < othila> | ;o |
| 01:13 | < KarolineDianne> | Herro |
| 01:13 | < othila> | hey |
| 01:13 | < KarolineDianne> | I'm being a derp and continuing to try to make a MF0 rpg |
| 01:13 | < othila> | I just put all my frames in my kitcehn |
| 01:14 | < othila> | kitchen*; for some reason I thought it'd be the place to sort them and get them ready to transport |
| 01:14 | < othila> | then I lost interest and got hungry |
| 01:14 | < othila> | but can't prepare food. |
| 01:14 | < othila> | the pilot rules and stuff you mean? |
| 01:14 | < othila> | let me check it out |
| 01:15 | < KarolineDianne> | http://www.mobileframehangar.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1342#p18659 |
| 01:15 | < KarolineDianne> | I'm basically designing Mobile Frame World |
| 01:15 | < othila> | this is semi-related, but |
| 01:15 | < othila> | do you know which thread Joshua posted his idea for that |
| 01:16 | < othila> | storytelling/pilot plot point confrontation thing? |
| 01:16 | < KarolineDianne> | I do not |
| 01:16 | < othila> | I'll hunt for it after I check out your thread |
| 01:16 | < KarolineDianne> | As far as I recall I'm the first to try and actually make an rpg. Not just adding 'campaign rules' and stuff for pilots, but turning it from a wargame into a roleplaying game like Apocalypse World or Dungeon World |
| 01:17 | < othila> | his wasn't anything huge, it was just like |
| 01:17 | < othila> | a houserule |
| 01:17 | < othila> | you could get out of your frame and run away as long as you had one white die left, and then there was something of a protagonist/antagonist framework |
| 01:17 | < othila> | thoujgh now that I think about it it might have been two different posts... |
| 01:18 | < KarolineDianne> | My idea essentially is a whole new game |
| 01:22 | < othila> | I've gotta go start dinner, but |
| 01:22 | < othila> | are your character stats tied to your combat stats |
| 01:22 | < othila> | as in, is combat primarily determined by your pilot's stats and experience, or is it determined in whole or in part by the frame? |
| 01:24 | < KarolineDianne> | That really depends on how I wind up doing it. Originally, pilot stats affected the dice you get in the Frame. A pilot with no training in a particular system only rolls d4's for it (and d6's for associated d8's). A pilot with training rolls normally. An expert rolls d8's instead of d6's, and d10's instead of d8's. |
| 01:24 | < KarolineDianne> | THat was the original idea. |
| 01:25 | < othila> | I really don't know anything about roleplaying systems |
| 01:26 | < othila> | the one thing I do know is that different things work for different groups |
| 01:26 | < othila> | but for me, the fun part of an MFZ rpg would be exploring the world and doing collaborative worldbuilding |
| 01:26 | < othila> | possibly with characters that aren't even mobile frame pilots, though I certainly think that should be covered |
| 01:26 | < othila> | the big question you need to ask yourself is if you're making a GAME or a SYSTEM |
| 01:27 | < KarolineDianne> | What's the difference? |
| 01:28 | < othila> | it's subtle I guess, or vague |
| 01:29 | < othila> | sorry, I'm trying to wash things for a salad and type this |
| 01:29 | < othila> | like, are you making rules for a complex combat and diplomacy simulation |
| 01:29 | < othila> | or are you making a sandbox storytelling system with some gamelike elements? |
| 01:29 | < KarolineDianne> | It's supposed to specifically be MF0 the rpg |
| 01:29 | < othila> | I guess the defining characteristic is the way in which a player "wins", though there certainly are exceptions |
| 01:30 | < othila> | well, RPG has game in the name, but, like |
| 01:30 | < othila> | people call GURPS an rpg, or DND an RPG |
| 01:30 | < othila> | but those are systems |
| 01:30 | < KarolineDianne> | the *World games work like that. Their rules are based around their theme. |
| 01:30 | < KarolineDianne> | Wat you're being silly. |
| 01:30 | < othila> | I'm not trying to be pedantic with definitions, I'm just explaining what I mean badly |
| 01:30 | < othila> | like, uhh |
| 01:30 | < KarolineDianne> | Those are rpgs. You don't 'win' in rpgs, not tabletop ones anyway. |
| 01:31 | < othila> | okay, if that's your definition |
| 01:31 | < othila> | so it's a storytelling system |
| 01:31 | < othila> | that you want to make |
| 01:31 | < KarolineDianne> | ... |
| 01:31 | < KarolineDianne> | I don't even |
| 01:31 | < othila> | I was just asking, like |
| 01:31 | < othila> | okay, look at |
| 01:31 | < othila> | this game |
| 01:31 | < othila> | http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/96848/mage-knight-board-game |
| 01:32 | < othila> | like, people talk about this like a role playing game |
| 01:32 | < othila> | because in a way it is |
| 01:32 | < othila> | but it's not a storytelling system in the way that dnd or gurps or cyberpunk is |
| 01:32 | < KarolineDianne> | Mageknight is not an rpg. It's a boardgame. A strategy wargame. |
| 01:32 | < othila> | it's not a wargame at all |
| 01:32 | < othila> | a strategy game, sure |
| 01:32 | < KarolineDianne> | :| |
| 01:32 | < othila> | the reason I linked that in particular is because it's a game that tells a story through mechanics |
| 01:33 | < othila> | as opposed to a game that ALLOWS you to tell a story via a codified system |
| 01:33 | < othila> | I just wanted to figure out which kind you wanted to make so I could tailor my advice |
| 01:33 | < othila> | (sorry if I ranted) |
| 01:33 | < othila> | oh |
| 01:33 | < othila> | also |
| 01:33 | < othila> | the OLD mage knight game was a strategy wargame |
| 01:33 | < othila> | that thing I linked is a completely different game |
| 01:34 | < KarolineDianne> | Mageknight is a tactical wargame. Mageknight Dungeons changed it up a bit. But Mageknight is no more an rpg than Warhammer or Magic the Gathering are, because it's basically a mix of those two. |
| 01:34 | < othila> | this isn't either of those games |
| 01:35 | < othila> | like, it isn't technically a roleplaying game either |
| 01:35 | < othila> | but people talk about it like an rpg; it's a board game that tells an emergent story |
| 01:35 | < othila> | again, I just used it as an example because I wasn't sure if you wanted to design what I called (in my possibly flawed terminology) a game or a system |
| 01:36 | < KarolineDianne> | rpgs, role playing games, are games in which you make a character and play a role. D&D, Mutants and Masterminds, Apocalypse World, etc. Those are all tabletop rpgs. Computer or videogame rpgs tend to be a little different by their nature, since there are premade limitations and rules you can't change. |
| 01:37 | < othila> | I guess I just view it as a wider genre, thus the confusion |
| 01:37 | < KarolineDianne> | I'm designing an Apocalypse World hack for the Mobile Frame Zero game world and theme. A game with defined rules based around the MF0 game world and theme, wherein you make a character and play them, with no preset goal or way to 'win' , unless the GM says so. |
| 01:37 | < othila> | ah, okay |
| 01:37 | < othila> | I suppose I could've just asked |
| 01:37 | < othila> | "does this game have a GM" |
| 01:37 | < othila> | in fact that's what I should've asked. |
| 01:38 | < KarolineDianne> | :P |
| 01:38 | < othila> | okay, so |
| 01:38 | < othila> | back to what I was saying earlier |
| 01:39 | < othila> | if you're making a storytelling system |
| 01:39 | < othila> | (and this is just my opinion) |
| 01:39 | < othila> | you shouldn't make combat the central focus |
| 01:39 | < othila> | you can still design a tight system for combat, but you could place it in the background of the presentation |
| 01:40 | < othila> | obviously people are going to use it, but it's the build up and aftermath of combat that lets you create real drama |
| 01:40 | < othila> | (and that's what a storytelling system should let you do: create good, crunchy drama) |
| 01:41 | < KarolineDianne> | Well sure |
| 01:41 | < KarolineDianne> | But you don't pick up a system based on galactic civil war and mecha, and then not play giant robot battles |
| 01:41 | < othila> | yeah, obviously |
| 01:41 | < othila> | I'm not saying ignore or skimp on the combat |
| 01:42 | < othila> | but the system needs to readily present the tools to tell a compelling story in the moments between the fights |
| 01:42 | < KarolineDianne> | Well of course. |
| 01:43 | < othila> | oh, another question |
| 01:43 | < othila> | does it use miniatures? |
| 01:43 | < othila> | like 7p figs for your pilots, and frames for combat? |
| 01:43 | < othila> | or is it more abstracted than a game of mf0:ra |
| 01:44 | < KarolineDianne> | But you don't play Dungeon World to sit as an innkeeper or farmer. You don't pick up Mobile Frame Zero: The RPG to sit around as a colony dock worker and watch the news about the Solar Union attacks. |
| 01:44 | < othila> | Well, I'm just saying you can take a protagonist role as a player character without being a war hero |
| 01:45 | < othila> | and, like |
| 01:45 | < othila> | I'm of the STRONG opinion that that's what's missing in most things you call rpgs |
| 01:45 | < othila> | that's what's missing from, say, D&D 4th edition |
| 01:45 | < othila> | you pretty much pick it up solely because you want to fight dragons |
| 01:45 | < othila> | possibly in dungeons |
| 01:45 | < othila> | when in reality a storytelling system (maybe not that one) can do a lot more |
| 01:46 | < othila> | especially in a space opera setting, where you've got politicians, a large and influential religion, disparate free colonial movements, etc |
| 01:46 | < othila> | there's lots of room for conflict that doesn't involve fighting, or at least doesn't begin or end with it |
| 01:46 | < KarolineDianne> | The *World gamed don't use miniatures, actually. Their systems tend to abstract combat and such a lot. |
| 01:47 | < KarolineDianne> | Well sure, but by the nature of the game, the players should be Frame pilots. |
| 01:47 | < KarolineDianne> | And really, 4e is a giant load of utter crap anyway. Utter blasphemy, a black mark of betrayal from Wizards. |
| 01:48 | < othila> | I guess I disagree with the assumption that players of an MFZ rpg "should" be frame pilots |
| 01:48 | < othila> | er, brb |
| 01:49 | < KarolineDianne> | Why would you even play a mecha game if you aren't going to pilot mecha? That's like pulling out a Gundam RPG and going 'okay guys, we're playing this... But you're not gundam pilots.' |
| 01:49 | < othila> | okay, ti was just the dog eating a cardboard box |
| 01:49 | < othila> | um, well |
| 01:49 | < othila> | that was exactly what I was going to use as an example |
| 01:50 | < othila> | I was going to say |
| 01:50 | < othila> | If I was playing a Gundam rpg |
| 01:50 | < othila> | I wouldn't want the vast majority of the game to simulate gundam combat because that isn't the only thing I enjoy |
| 01:50 | < othila> | in gundam story outings |
| 01:51 | < othila> | like, a gundam rpg should allow you to play a character like Bright or Reccoa who spends all or most of their time out of a mobile suit |
| 01:51 | < othila> | but is still central to the arc |
| 01:52 | < KarolineDianne> | And what happens when 4 of the 5 players are in Gundams, and you're walking around alone on the surface? |
| 01:52 | < othila> | well, in the context of a gundam rpg |
| 01:52 | < othila> | you're probably either commanding a ship |
| 01:52 | < othila> | infiltrating the enemy ship and/or sleeping with the enemy commander |
| 01:53 | < othila> | presenting your faction's case at an international summit (either on Earth or on a neutral colony) |
| 01:53 | < othila> | engaged in a sword fight in an exploding space station |
| 01:53 | < othila> | rowing a boat across a small lake |
| 01:53 | < othila> | etc |
| 01:53 | < othila> | I mean, take your pick |
| 01:53 | < KarolineDianne> | U huh. |
| 01:54 | < othila> | and lots of those things |
| 01:54 | < othila> | maybe with the exception of that last one |
| 01:54 | < othila> | could be codified in a way that's analogous to the combat |
| 01:54 | < KarolineDianne> | See, at no point did I say I wouldn't add rules for social interaction and stuff, but really... What's the point of playing with the group if you're going to go off on your own and not be part of the group? |
| 01:56 | < othila> | it just depends on the kind of game you're playing |
| 01:56 | < othila> | or I guess, really |
| 01:56 | < othila> | it depends on the group of people you're playing with |
| 01:56 | < othila> | like, I think there's something to be said for both kind of "party" |
| 01:56 | < othila> | in the context of a storytelling system |
| 01:56 | < othila> | that said I wouldn't have the faintest idea of how to codify either |
| 01:57 | < othila> | like, I could say all the same things about medieval or fantasy rpgs |
| 01:57 | < othila> | most character development in, I'd guess, more than 90% of dnd campaigns or similar |
| 01:57 | < othila> | happens in the tavern, and it only takes a small amount of time compared to the combat |
| 01:58 | < othila> | er, sorry, had to get the dog |
| 01:58 | < othila> | the end of that thought was: and I think that's a bad thing |
| 01:59 | < othila> | character development should be the primary force, not secondary to stat development |
| 01:59 | < othila> | but really, the target audience for that kind of game disagrees with me, so |
| 01:59 | | * othila shrugs |
| 01:59 | < KarolineDianne> | I wouldn't say that. Most games I'm in are majority character interaction and development, with a bit of combat here and there. |
| 02:00 | < KarolineDianne> | And the *World system helps that even more. |
| 02:01 | < othila> | if that's the case, and that's the kind of gameplay you prefer |
| 02:01 | < othila> | I don't see why you'd want to limit character development to the context of mobile frame pilots |
| 02:02 | < othila> | in the system as a WHOLE, I mean |
| 02:02 | < othila> | you could certainly play a campaign in which you are, say, all members of the same mercenary company or whatever |
| 02:03 | < KarolineDianne> | Well, that's like saying you should be able to play a bystander farmer in Dungeon World, to me. |
| 02:03 | < KarolineDianne> | By picking up Dungeon World, you agree to play an adventurer of some sort. That's the whole point of the game. |
| 02:04 | < othila> | I get that you think that's what I'm saying, but that's not what I'm saying |
| 02:05 | < othila> | but that's because, I guess, I don't see "adventurer" and "frame pilot" as analogous in their respective contexts |
| 02:05 | < othila> | obviously all player characters are going to want to play as protagonists |
| 02:05 | < KarolineDianne> | Apocalypse World is a bit broader, since it's less about adventuring and more about just surviving in the post-apocalyptic wasteland, and deals a lot with social and societal stuff. You could play the settlement leader or the boss of a biker gang in Apoc World, but in Dungeon World... You've kinda bought into 'we go adventure and stuff as a group' |
| 02:05 | < othila> | Well, I definitely like the sound of Apoc World more |
| 02:06 | < othila> | because I think that sort of interaction is interesting |
| 02:06 | < KarolineDianne> | It's a great game, made by the same guy who did this one. |
| 02:06 | < KarolineDianne> | Or at least, he helped make this one. |
| 02:06 | < othila> | and I think it could be very interestingly subverted in a world that has a faction that's at least ostensibly resistant to hierarchy |
| 02:06 | < othila> | it'd be, like, the INVERSE of the post-apoc tribal setting |
| 02:07 | < othila> | basically, what I'm saying is |
| 02:07 | < KarolineDianne> | But Apoc World's theme is broader and less focused as a whole. Dungeon World's is more focused on being adventurers, and not just 'people living in the wasteland' |
| 02:07 | < othila> | I don't think you have to choose between the extremes of toothless peasant and glowing paladin |
| 02:07 | < KarolineDianne> | And I'd think that 'Mobile Frame World' is also focused, since the whole point of it is to be a Frame pilot. |
| 02:07 | < othila> | and, to continue your example, I think the solar calender setting lends itself to a broader, more open experience |
| 02:08 | < othila> | I guess that's where we differ in our thinking |
| 02:09 | < othila> | like, I see the elements of the game mf0:ra as representative of a small subset of the interesting bits of the world built around it |
| 02:09 | < othila> | the same could be said for any fictional world that is well constructed |
| 02:09 | < othila> | the focus of one outing doesn't encompass the whole, but the part |
| 02:10 | < othila> | but, again, I'm not really the target audience for traditional roleplaying games, so you really can just ignore what I'm saying if you want |
| 02:10 | < KarolineDianne> | Be that as it may, things would quickly go to hell if there was only ONE player out of four who piloted a Frame, and the colony got attacked. |
| 02:10 | < KarolineDianne> | And it would be awkward if someone got their souped up Frame, but then never got to use it and was useless as everyone else just talked politics. |
| 02:12 | < othila> | yeah, but in my opinion that's a problem caused by the people sitting down to play the system |
| 02:12 | < othila> | and it happens in even very focused, limited systems |
| 02:12 | < othila> | sometimes players just want different things from the game. |
| 02:13 | < othila> | obviously, in a more complex system, there has to be some out of character discussion and agreement, at least at the outset |
| 02:13 | < KarolineDianne> | Well sure. |
| 02:14 | < KarolineDianne> | But in my case, and I'm fairly confident this applies to the vast majority of people too, if I picked up an RPG about piloting big robots... I'd expect to actually pilot big robots. I mean... That's why you got it, right? If not, go get Mass Effect or Star Wars or the like. |
| 02:15 | < othila> | well, I guess what I'm saying is |
| 02:15 | < othila> | and it's still just a suggestion |
| 02:15 | < othila> | don't make it a game about piloting big robots |
| 02:16 | < othila> | make it a space opera |
| 02:16 | < othila> | a space opera in which one component is big robots |
| 02:16 | < KarolineDianne> | I'm afraid that utterly defeats the entire point of me making it. |
| 02:18 | < othila> | god, I feel like this salad took me three generations to assemble |
| 02:20 | < othila> | okay, hm |
| 02:20 | < othila> | well, if you don't want to make a space opera storytelling system |
| 02:21 | < othila> | and you want all pcs to be frame pilots |
| 02:21 | < othila> | what about confining the system heavily |
| 02:21 | < othila> | to use gundam as an example again |
| 02:21 | < othila> | make the experience of the game something like |
| 02:22 | < othila> | all the players are crew of White Base |
| 02:22 | < othila> | so, in SC terms |
| 02:22 | < othila> | maybe you're all part of the same Ijad tribe, or UMFL company |
| 02:22 | < KarolineDianne> | Well yes. |
| 02:22 | < othila> | so the drama comes from that shared space under pressure, and the decisionmaking process of people during wartime |
| 02:22 | < othila> | another cool mechanic would be, like |
| 02:23 | < KarolineDianne> | We couldn't have a mix of Ijad, SU, and Free Colonist players in the same group. It wouldn't make sense. |
| 02:23 | < KarolineDianne> | They'd have to be part of some kind of group to begin with. |
| 02:23 | < othila> | the GM plays a military official (or multiple people in a democratic/parliamentary/anarchistic military) |
| 02:23 | < KarolineDianne> | And the players woudl decide beforehand. |
| 02:23 | < othila> | and one of the game's tools is the interaction of all the players, speaking as their pcs |
| 02:23 | < othila> | and the GM, as that person or entity |
| 02:23 | < othila> | as a preamble to all (or most) of the combat scenarios |
| 02:24 | < othila> | it's a simple, relatively strict mechanic that could be used a lot of different ways |
| 02:24 | < othila> | if people want to play boot camp/drill sergeant, they play a TEM company |
| 02:24 | < KarolineDianne> | I'm a little lost now |
| 02:24 | < othila> | okay, like |
| 02:24 | < othila> | the idea is |
| 02:25 | < othila> | all the PCs are part of the same fighting force |
| 02:25 | < KarolineDianne> | "That's a given |
| 02:25 | < othila> | a cool storytelling mechanic, supposedly analogous (but I loathe to make the comparison) to the tavern in fantasy rpgs |
| 02:25 | < othila> | could be this theoretically briefing room |
| 02:25 | < othila> | obviously, depending on the KIND of fighting force, this could be anything |
| 02:25 | < othila> | a campfire, a war room on a battlecruiser, or just a conference call |
| 02:26 | < othila> | this mechanic, basically, has the GM playing a role as superior officer |
| 02:26 | < othila> | or, in the example of an Ijad or otherwise hierarchy-light faction |
| 02:26 | < othila> | a group or parliament |
| 02:27 | < othila> | and the players play their characters |
| 02:27 | < othila> | my thinking is |
| 02:27 | < othila> | if you make this kind of thing a central mechanic, it eliminates two problems |
| 02:27 | < othila> | firstly, it doesn't allow any one of the player characters to be the leader or commander |
| 02:28 | < KarolineDianne> | I'm not following you at all anymore. |
| 02:28 | < othila> | which tends to happen in adventuring group games, or at least it happens sometimes |
| 02:28 | < othila> | now, with this mechanic, the superior officer/general/military parliament is played by the GM |
| 02:28 | < othila> | but, it also lets the players have a hand in constructing the scenario they'll play through on the fly |
| 02:28 | < KarolineDianne> | Everything that's not the players is always played by the GM |
| 02:28 | < othila> | because their voices are heard in the briefings |
| 02:28 | < KarolineDianne> | You're really confusing me |
| 02:29 | < othila> | well, sure; this mechanic posits that there is always this superior officer that is not a PC |
| 02:29 | < othila> | that he, she, or they is played by the GM is a given, I was just trying to be specific |
| 02:29 | < KarolineDianne> | That's usually a given, anyway. |
| 02:29 | < othila> | that there isn't a leader in adventuring groups? |
| 02:29 | < othila> | not in any role playing group I've seen |
| 02:29 | < KarolineDianne> | You're REALLY confusing me now |
| 02:29 | < othila> | maybe there's some IC or OOC discomfort with the situation |
| 02:29 | < othila> | er, when you said "that's usually a given anyway" |
| 02:30 | < KarolineDianne> | Okay back up |
| 02:30 | < KarolineDianne> | What the hell are you talking about? |
| 02:30 | < othila> | I thought you meant the assumption the leader or commander of the group isn't a PC |
| 02:30 | < othila> | okay |
| 02:30 | < othila> | this |
| 02:30 | < othila> | a mechanic |
| 02:30 | < KarolineDianne> | PLayers are part of the same group. Yes. Given. |
| 02:30 | < KarolineDianne> | Gm is everyone who's not the players. Yes. Given. |
| 02:30 | < KarolineDianne> | If players are members of a fighting force, there's going to be a general or commander above them. Yes. Given |
| 02:30 | < KarolineDianne> | So... |
| 02:30 | < othila> | this mechanic is something specific, though. A specific element of the story that takes place every time. |
| 02:31 | < KarolineDianne> | What are you talking about? |
| 02:31 | < othila> | A briefing room scenario |
| 02:31 | < othila> | (or one of the other examples I gave for a military that wouldn't have traditional hierarchy or commanders) |
| 02:31 | < othila> | (which I have to keep listing because many of the militaries in SC are like that) |
| 02:31 | < othila> | this briefing room (or similar) scenario would be something that rules of the game |
| 02:31 | < othila> | encourage the GM and players to undertake before every outing |
| 02:31 | < KarolineDianne> | That's something you just... Do. Like any other scene the GM lays out in an rpg... You just say 'The commander wants you in the briefing room' and then the players go... The GM says what the commander says... I mean.. That's basic. |
| 02:32 | < othila> | before every fight, mission, or scenario |
| 02:32 | < othila> | it's something that CAN happen in roleplaying games |
| 02:32 | < othila> | like an audience with the king or whatever |
| 02:32 | < othila> | but I'm talking something you explictly enforce (or at least strongly encourage) in the rules |
| 02:32 | < KarolineDianne> | Why do you need a mechanic for something that's... Given |
| 02:33 | < othila> | because I honestly don't think it is a given, or even likely to happen |
| 02:33 | < KarolineDianne> | I really don't understand at all |
| 02:33 | < othila> | rather, I think most gms will just construct a scenario, give the players a two sentence summary of their knowledge, and send them out to blow shit up |
| 02:33 | < KarolineDianne> | You aren't making any sense to me... Even in the slightest. |
| 02:34 | < othila> | I'm saying put an EMPHASIS on the briefing, the build up, the discussion before the engagement |
| 02:34 | < othila> | and let the players have an active voice in determining what to do, in the gameworld |
| 02:34 | < othila> | with their frames; where to engage, who to fight |
| 02:34 | < KarolineDianne> | Well, that all really depends on the actual situation the GM creates. |
| 02:34 | < othila> | and encourage players (and particularly GMs) to make that a central element of the story they tell |
| 02:34 | < othila> | yes, you're right |
| 02:34 | < othila> | but so does EVERYTHING in a roleplaying system |
| 02:35 | < othila> | but people tend to reach for the closest stick the rulebook offers them and start swinging |
| 02:35 | < KarolineDianne> | If the GM says the players are SU soldiers being sent out on a sortie, then yes, there's a briefing. If the GM runs a game where the players are the Free Colonist militia in a outer-system colony, and they get attacked... Briefing is less likely. |
| 02:35 | < othila> | well, from a narrative position |
| 02:36 | < othila> | I disagree |
| 02:36 | < KarolineDianne> | THat makes no sense. |
| 02:36 | < othila> | and from a mechanical position, I don't think that matters |
| 02:36 | < othila> | if you enforce it |
| 02:36 | < othila> | again, it isn't just a "briefing" |
| 02:36 | < othila> | that's why I listed all those analogous situations for the different factions |
| 02:36 | < othila> | a campfire meeting, a parliament, a conference call |
| 02:36 | < othila> | but any fighting force, even a loosely organized one with no hierarchy |
| 02:36 | < KarolineDianne> | You aren't making it clear as to why any of this is even relevant |
| 02:36 | < othila> | is going to talk about what targets to hit, what frames to deploy |
| 02:37 | < othila> | they're going to talk about who's with them, who's against them, who's likely to swap sides |
| 02:37 | < othila> | they're going to talk about the mental stability of their soldiers |
| 02:37 | < othila> | no matter the faction, this kind of thing will happen (or should happen in a well constructed narrative) |
| 02:37 | < KarolineDianne> | I'm really... Not seeing this at all. |
| 02:37 | < othila> | and what I'm saying is it would be neat if the rules EMPHASIZED a mechanic, or even a framework |
| 02:38 | < othila> | that allows the players and the GMs to experience that before combat scenarios |
| 02:38 | < KarolineDianne> | Why do we need a framework for something that already happens when it's appropriate IC? |
| 02:38 | < othila> | because, as you pointed out yourself |
| 02:38 | < othila> | I don't think it's all that likely to happen |
| 02:39 | < othila> | and I think it could be a very strong storytelling tool in the context of a game about giant robot pilots |
| 02:39 | < KarolineDianne> | So you're going to shoehorn something redundant and unnecessary into a game as an actual rule? |
| 02:39 | < othila> | and something that should be emphasized |
| 02:39 | < othila> | I wouldn't call it shoehorning, and I wouldn't call it redundant |
| 02:39 | < othila> | really I wouldn't call it any of those things |
| 02:39 | < othila> | but that's, maybe |
| 02:39 | < othila> | because you already play with a group that likes and enjoys focusing on character development |
| 02:40 | < othila> | I really think that's RARE, so maybe your group is just awesome |
| 02:40 | < othila> | (and part of the reason I think it's rare is because roleplaying systems don't often EMPHASIZE their storytelling tools) |
| 02:40 | < KarolineDianne> | You're basically saying 'Before you can play, we are going to force you to sit down in a circle and talk about... Stuff. You can't go and just be your characters and play normally, we're going to shove you in a room and stare at you' |
| 02:40 | < othila> | (even if those tools are, in essence, just suggestions) |
| 02:40 | < othila> | haha, yes |
| 02:40 | < othila> | that's exactly what I'm saying |
| 02:40 | < othila> | "even if it makes you supremely uncomfortable" |
| 02:41 | < KarolineDianne> | I mean |
| 02:41 | < KarolineDianne> | What even is this |
| 02:41 | < othila> | "and also, you'll probably be Wonged" |
| 02:41 | < othila> | this is what it is |
| 02:41 | < othila> | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckUbAykOt3M |
| 02:42 | < KarolineDianne> | I don't get it |
| 02:42 | < othila> | it's basically what you said |
| 02:43 | < othila> | I really believe it would be beneficial to a storytelling system to have the rulebook say something like |
| 02:43 | < othila> | Before you can play, we are going to force you to sit down in a circle and talk about... Stuff. You can't go and just be your characters and play normally, we're going to shove you in a room and stare at you' |
| 02:43 | < othila> | albiet in more encouraging language |
| 02:43 | < KarolineDianne> | My point is that you're essentially trying to force an event into the game that likely doesn't fit with the actual scenario the GM created. |
| 02:43 | < othila> | I like taking players out of their comfort zone |
| 02:43 | < othila> | if that means taking the GM out of their comfort zone too, well |
| 02:43 | < othila> | so be it |
| 02:43 | < othila> | I just think it would actually be fun once it happened |
| 02:44 | < othila> | and it would provide a beat between combat scenarios to prevent campaigns from getting too dry or grindy |
| 02:44 | < othila> | to use the tavern as an example again |
| 02:44 | < othila> | the tavern is, as you say |
| 02:44 | < othila> | a given |
| 02:44 | < othila> | you don't need to codify it or suggest it in the rulebook |
| 02:45 | < KarolineDianne> | I mean, if the GM is running a game where the players are militia in a colony, there's no need for a briefing. If forces attack, they're not going to get together for a meeting before they respond. No, they're going to jump in their frames and defend their home. |
| 02:45 | < othila> | it's a storytelling standy, the perfect place for a beat or rest in the pace of the game, a perfect tool for a GM |
| 02:45 | < othila> | I'm saying that something like that doesn't exist INHERENTLY in a solar calender game, so you should emphasize it; offer it to the GM like a new power drill |
| 02:45 | < othila> | and, again, I totally disagree |
| 02:45 | < othila> | there is, in fact, even more need for discussion or briefing in a loosely organized military |
| 02:46 | < othila> | people in a colonial militia or even an anarchist military aren't used to or are outright opposed to "taking orders" |
| 02:46 | < KarolineDianne> | If the GM is running a game where the players are stragglers on a battlezone, seperated from their main force... There's no upper command to contact anyway. Any 'meeting' is just the stragglers camping together while they figure out what to do... Which is all done IC anyway. |
| 02:46 | < othila> | sure, but that last one is an exception to the rule, and it could be used to great effect |
| 02:47 | < othila> | you take away the beat of the briefing room mechanic and it leaves players high and dry |
| 02:47 | < KarolineDianne> | I really don't get this 'mechanic' at all. It's not even a mechanic. It's an arbitrary event that's forced in. |
| 02:48 | < othila> | you do, because you just described it |
| 02:48 | < othila> | we differ because I think it's a good idea and you think it's a bad one :P |
| 02:48 | < othila> | admittedly mechanic is not the best word to describe it, but I couldn't think of another single word to do the job |
| 02:49 | < KarolineDianne> | THIS is a mechanic: When the players return to town after a successful adventure and throw a big party, roll 2d6 +1 for every 100 gold spent. On a 7-9 pick one. On a 10+, pick three... *list of stuff* |
| 02:49 | < othila> | yes, I already conceded that mechanic is not a great word |
| 02:50 | < othila> | call it whatever; a suggested reoccuring event, a narrative framework, a paint by numbers picture |
| 02:50 | < othila> | er, :* |
| 02:51 | < KarolineDianne> | It's something that happens on its own, organically, when it's appropriate, that doesn't need to be shoved in as a required event. |
| 02:51 | < othila> | and again, I just don't think it'd happen enough |
| 02:51 | < KarolineDianne> | I can't even fathom why it's so important. |
| 02:52 | < othila> | because it's a simple tool for character development, it squeezes arc and conflict out of the party and their assosciated npc faction like a juicer squeezes a lemon, and it'd make some players delightfully uncomfortable |
| 02:53 | < KarolineDianne> | I don't see -any- character development here. |
| 02:53 | < othila> | (and people would avoid those things or water them down otherwise, I fear) |
| 02:53 | < KarolineDianne> | That argument makes no sense at all. |
| 02:53 | < othila> | well, that's because it's a framework |
| 02:53 | < othila> | the character development is emergent from the arguments the pcs would have with eachother about how to use their time and weapons |
| 02:53 | < KarolineDianne> | That happens automatically anyway |
| 02:53 | < othila> | or they would bond over opposition with their superior officer or ruling body |
| 02:54 | < othila> | except it doesn't, or not often enough |
| 02:54 | < othila> | but again, maybe your group is particularly good |
| 02:54 | < KarolineDianne> | Honestly, if you think this is even necessary at all, either you have HORRIBLE GM's, or HORRIBLE players. |
| 02:54 | < KarolineDianne> | "Or both |
| 02:54 | < othila> | sure |
| 02:54 | < othila> | but I'm positing that MOST players and gms are bad |
| 02:54 | < othila> | and SOME, at least SOME of that fault |
| 02:54 | < othila> | is in their rulesets not encouraging cool stuff |
| 02:54 | < KarolineDianne> | I've never had any of these problems... Ever. |
| 02:54 | < KarolineDianne> | And I've been playing RPG's since I was 8. |
| 02:55 | < othila> | basically, I think players and gms could use a swift kick in the ass when it comes to character arc |
| 02:55 | < othila> | and you don't think they need it |
| 02:56 | < othila> | but I also don't think players would resent being "forced" into the scenario I'm describing as much as you think they would |
| 02:56 | < KarolineDianne> | Either the people I play with are just Gods among RPG users.... Or the people you play with are the sludge scraped off the bottom... |
| 02:56 | < othila> | maybe a bit of both |
| 02:56 | < othila> | but I don't see either of those as a reason a ruleset shouldn't encourage the use of specific narrative devices |
| 02:56 | < othila> | rather than SIMPLY being codified combat, conflict, and interaction |
| 02:57 | < KarolineDianne> | This isn't a narrative device, this is... A weird mess |
| 02:57 | < othila> | just like the mf0:ra book benefits from being a sample of worldbuilding as well as a combat ruleset |
| 02:57 | < othila> | funny |
| 02:57 | < othila> | that's what I say about most people's roleplaying campaigns |
| 02:58 | < KarolineDianne> | It's been established that you got the ass end of rpg players |
| 02:59 | < KarolineDianne> | The *World games, Apoc World especially, already encourages LOTS of narrative, and has built in narrative devices in nearly every character's moves. |
| 02:59 | < KarolineDianne> | And none of it was ever 'shove all the characters together for an arbitrary meeting that may or may not actually have anything to do with the game the GM has set up' |
| 03:00 | < othila> | well, again |
| 03:00 | < othila> | different jobs call for different tools |
| 03:00 | < othila> | even if you don't like the particular tool I suggested |
| 03:00 | < othila> | a ruleset I would enjoy, and I think others would, is one that offers the right set of tools to sculpt the kind of narrative befitting the chosen setting |
| 03:01 | < othila> | that particular tool, I thought, reflected something I like about other stories involving giant robot combat |
| 03:01 | < KarolineDianne> | Quite frankly, it sounds very forced and out of place. |
| 03:02 | < othila> | okay, but, again |
| 03:02 | < othila> | I think that's because your experience of roleplaying is that it's already communal and heavily discussion based |
| 03:03 | < KarolineDianne> | Well, the people I play with are roleplayers. It's what they do. They play these games. They play freeform collaberative storytelling. Character interaction is like, the main part. Combat and such just happens to be something that happens. |
| 03:03 | < KarolineDianne> | That's how it is, that's how it's always been. |
| 03:04 | < othila> | and I'm saying, in a cautionary way |
| 03:04 | < othila> | don't like that (admittedly great) experience make you think that all roleplaying groups shake out like that |
| 03:04 | < othila> | even the ones, tragically, that would prefer that kind of interaction |
| 03:04 | < KarolineDianne> | So this sort of thing is like shoving a restraining leash on a dog that already knows where to go and where not to, and will come back home on its own. |
| 03:05 | < othila> | but a dog that knows all that was trained with a leash ;) |
| 03:05 | < KarolineDianne> | Sometimes. |
| 03:05 | < KarolineDianne> | I never needed a leash. |
| 03:05 | < othila> | I guess my mentality is expect the worst in your players, but attempt to nurture the best in them |
| 03:05 | < othila> | as a designer, I mean, not as a GM |
| 03:06 | < KarolineDianne> | Uh huh. |
| 03:06 | < KarolineDianne> | In any case... I think this is a horrible idea that literally has no place in anything. It doesn't make any sense in any context and has no value or purpose at all. |
| 03:07 | < othila> | well, I feel the complete opposite, but that's fine, it's your game :P |
| 03:07 | < KarolineDianne> | >:I |
| 03:07 | < othila> | but really it was just a small idea |
| 03:07 | < othila> | it's something I would certainly include if I was running a campaign |
| 03:07 | < KarolineDianne> | Yeah well... I'm gonna head off now because this whole bout of nonsense has already stressed me out way too much. |
| 03:07 | < othila> | (in, as per our examples, UC or SC) |
| 03:08 | < KarolineDianne> | So uh... See you later... |
| 03:08 | < othila> | you take my rambling far too seriously |
| 03:08 | < othila> | bye o/ |
| 03:08 | < KarolineDianne> | I take everything seriously. I'm incapable of not taking things seriously. |
| 03:08 | < KarolineDianne> | So yeah. Later. :I |
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| 03:09 | < othila> | ~o~ |
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| 17:49 | < KarolineDianne> | Herro |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jan 17 00:00:37 2013 |