| --- Log opened Fri Sep 21 00:00:08 2012 |
| 00:03 | | huhwhozat [chatzilla@Nightstar-f2f80f29.in.comcast.net] has joined #mf0 |
| 00:04 | < huhwhozat> | hallo |
| 00:05 | < neoaez> | welcome back |
| 00:06 | < huhwhozat> | yar |
| 00:07 | < afny> | o/ |
| 00:34 | | huhwhozat [chatzilla@Nightstar-f2f80f29.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 00:40 | < Draxinusom> | HI |
| 00:40 | < Draxinusom> | Ok |
| 00:41 | < Draxinusom> | It's not the images specifically. At least it doesnt appear to be. I took a look at the the images themselves and they're just fine. |
| 00:42 | < Draxinusom> | For some reason when I finish and try to save the cards the images it produces are grainy and artifact filled. |
| 00:42 | < Draxinusom> | Just wondering if there was a trick to prevent that |
| 00:42 | < neoaez> | What DPI are the images you are using? |
| 00:43 | < Draxinusom> | No no, I'm using the minimalist cards, I mean the component images of the cards, like the dice images and the frame. |
| 00:43 | < neoaez> | Hmmm |
| 00:43 | < Draxinusom> | Yeah |
| 00:43 | < Draxinusom> | Thats what I said |
| 00:44 | < neoaez> | I've only printed them out in grayscale here, but they come out pretty sharp |
| 00:44 | < neoaez> | What printer do you have? |
| 00:44 | < neoaez> | The cards are setup to print at 200dpi which is pretty decent for printing. |
| 00:45 | < neoaez> | MSE actually uses 150dpi for the magic card sets. |
| 00:45 | < Draxinusom> | Maybe it's just the perfectionist in me. I haven't printed them yet, just exported the completed image files. It's those finished files that show the artifacting. Maybe it wouldn't be noticeable in print. |
| 00:46 | < neoaez> | I have to run my kid to karate. I'll be back a little later. We can see if we can get to the bottom of it. |
| 00:46 | < Draxinusom> | The dpi is still appropriate, it seems to be applying image compression I think |
| 00:46 | < neoaez> | They should look pretty sharp on screen. Do they look worse than those on my flickr account? |
| 00:46 | < Draxinusom> | Let me check |
| 00:46 | < neoaez> | bbl |
| 00:48 | | KarolineDianne [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-35371e3c.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #mf0 |
| 00:48 | < KarolineDianne> | e_e |
| 00:50 | < afny> | :A |
| 00:50 | < Draxinusom> | Oh wow yeah |
| 00:51 | < Draxinusom> | That's weird |
| 00:51 | < afny> | how you doin KD |
| 00:51 | < KarolineDianne> | Hallo |
| 00:51 | < Draxinusom> | You're look great |
| 00:51 | < Draxinusom> | Yours look great |
| 00:51 | < KarolineDianne> | Who's looking great? |
| 00:51 | < Draxinusom> | lol |
| 00:51 | < afny> | me, obvs |
| 00:51 | | * afny is sexeh |
| 00:51 | < KarolineDianne> | We;; duh |
| 00:51 | < Draxinusom> | The Unit Cards neoaez made. |
| 00:51 | < Draxinusom> | :) |
| 00:52 | < KarolineDianne> | So hey, I just put a new thread in the Frame Forge |
| 00:53 | < afny> | I'd be into fantasy stuff if it was like Escaflowne |
| 00:53 | < Draxinusom> | HA, Nice |
| 00:54 | < KarolineDianne> | Escaflowne? |
| 00:54 | < afny> | it's giant robot anime, but with capes and swords and chivalry |
| 00:54 | < KarolineDianne> | Oh |
| 00:54 | < KarolineDianne> | Well, I was thinking more along the lines of Warhammer Fantasy |
| 00:54 | < KarolineDianne> | But using MF0 rules |
| 00:55 | < KarolineDianne> | And legos |
| 00:56 | < afny> | if I did that I'd do it with minifigs I guess |
| 00:57 | < KarolineDianne> | I like this idea, though, because it lets you do a lot while staying in the normal MF0 rules. |
| 00:57 | < KarolineDianne> | So like, a big unit of 18 soldiers could be a Frame.. |
| 00:57 | < KarolineDianne> | Or four knights |
| 00:57 | < KarolineDianne> | Or a big armored troll or dragon |
| 00:57 | < afny> | hm |
| 00:57 | < afny> | I could be down for building fantasy creatures |
| 00:58 | < afny> | I don't have the best parts for that kind of thing thouhg |
| 00:58 | < KarolineDianne> | You could make your 'chaos lord' HQ guy just one dude on a cool piece of scenery, and now the 'one dude so awesome he's as good as a bunch of mooks' thing is satisfied. |
| 01:00 | < afny> | I dunno, I'm generally against mooks |
| 01:00 | < afny> | I don't subscribe to that kind of representation of warfare |
| 01:01 | < afny> | I'm just opinionated though, don't let me stop you from making plates of soldiers |
| 01:02 | < KarolineDianne> | Well, in war, everyone is a mook. |
| 01:02 | < afny> | well yeah |
| 01:02 | < afny> | everyone is a mook and everyone is a hero |
| 01:02 | < KarolineDianne> | But we throw badass protagonists in our fantasy to make it cooler |
| 01:02 | < afny> | well I can't argue against that because |
| 01:02 | < afny> | Amuro :| |
| 01:02 | < afny> | but |
| 01:03 | < afny> | I think it's different in linear fiction vs representational wargames |
| 01:03 | < KarolineDianne> | Hmm? |
| 01:03 | < KarolineDianne> | Well, when I say 'mook' I mean 'rank and file footsoldier' |
| 01:04 | < KarolineDianne> | As opposed to the named characters who don't die in one hit and actually have face time |
| 01:04 | < afny> | yeah, but I don't think that kind of thing belongs in procedurally generated war stories |
| 01:04 | < afny> | like wargames |
| 01:04 | < afny> | those heroes with face time are emergent based on dice rolls, etc |
| 01:04 | < afny> | as opposed to being "predestined" |
| 01:05 | < KarolineDianne> | So you think there should be no mooks? Or no 'characters who are better' |
| 01:05 | < afny> | I just think the distinction is meaningless until they divide themselves emergently |
| 01:05 | < afny> | at least in the context of the mf0 ruleset |
| 01:06 | < afny> | but I think predetermining your "heroes" and your fodder just limits the emergent storytelling in general |
| 01:06 | < afny> | it's basically the same reason I hate alignments in dnd |
| 01:06 | < KarolineDianne> | Well, in Warhammer, your special characters have mathematically better stats, better abilities, and cost more. |
| 01:06 | < afny> | yeah |
| 01:06 | < afny> | that's why I hate warhammer |
| 01:06 | < afny> | lol |
| 01:06 | < KarolineDianne> | Ah |
| 01:06 | < afny> | well, one of many reasons honestly |
| 01:06 | < afny> | I like Dawn of War 2 :P |
| 01:06 | < KarolineDianne> | Well, I like it. |
| 01:06 | < afny> | I get the appeal |
| 01:07 | < KarolineDianne> | Mostly because it's awesome to watch your 200pt chaos lord decked out with lightning claws cut a bloody swathe through your enemy's troops almost singlehandedly. |
| 01:07 | < KarolineDianne> | Right before he gets one-shotted by a super laser beam of doom |
| 01:07 | < KarolineDianne> | It's cinematic. |
| 01:07 | < KarolineDianne> | And cool. |
| 01:08 | < KarolineDianne> | And it can be represented in MF0 by making regular troops come in groups, while letting the big guys be alone. They still count as the same thing, just one -looks- like it's a bunch of weak guys dropping like flies, and one -looks- like a badass taking it all alone. |
| 01:09 | < Draxinusom> | Yeah, I play 40k also. It's very different in style from MF0 and it's less "realistic" if you will as you say afny. To me that's it's appeal though. I like watching both crazy fantasy movies and more realistic war movies, for very different reasons. |
| 01:11 | < KarolineDianne> | But anyway, the main thing I'd use that 'method' for is representing different types of things. a bunch of footsoldiers, a few mounted knights, a siege weapon or two, or one big thing like a dragon or whatnot. |
| 01:11 | < afny> | I guess that's why I like the George R.R. Martin take on fantasy better |
| 01:11 | < KarolineDianne> | I was just pointing out that hey... I could make Warmaster Skorukan, Lich King of the Moran Empire for my army and have him just be alone as one Frame. |
| 01:11 | | huhwhozat [chatzilla@Nightstar-f2f80f29.in.comcast.net] has joined #mf0 |
| 01:11 | < afny> | birth or placement doesn't affect your chances of living through a battle |
| 01:12 | < KarolineDianne> | Sure |
| 01:12 | < huhwhozat> | hallo |
| 01:12 | < KarolineDianne> | But power does. |
| 01:12 | < afny> | sure, but on a realistic scale |
| 01:12 | < KarolineDianne> | And if you're the chosen scion of your god, and swollen with unholy might and resilience. :P |
| 01:12 | < KarolineDianne> | Well that's why it's fantasy |
| 01:12 | < afny> | an experienced hedge knight is equal to a highborn kingsguard is equal to a magic user is equal to a n otherwordly zombie |
| 01:13 | < afny> | and people who suck at fighting have influence in other ways |
| 01:13 | < afny> | politically, emotionally, or negative (but powerful) influence over themselves |
| 01:13 | < afny> | it's just more interesting |
| 01:13 | < KarolineDianne> | I disagree, myself. |
| 01:13 | < Draxinusom> | I suppose, but he may drop more scale issues into it eventually. His history certainly has that. The Targaryen's took over with Dragons, etc. |
| 01:14 | < afny> | I highly doubt Dany will end up as a relatable character |
| 01:14 | < afny> | I HIIIIIGHLY doubt it |
| 01:14 | < huhwhozat> | and now I have context! :D |
| 01:14 | < Draxinusom> | Relatable in what way? |
| 01:14 | < huhwhozat> | book or show? |
| 01:14 | < afny> | she won't be likeable |
| 01:14 | < afny> | either |
| 01:14 | < KarolineDianne> | I personally like the kind of high fantasy epic tales that have powerful characters. |
| 01:14 | < afny> | like I said |
| 01:14 | < KarolineDianne> | Not like, super saiyan powerful |
| 01:14 | < afny> | every character is powerful in asoiaf |
| 01:15 | < afny> | they just leverage their power differently |
| 01:15 | < KarolineDianne> | I... Don't get it. |
| 01:15 | < KarolineDianne> | But whatever |
| 01:15 | < afny> | think about every POV character |
| 01:15 | < huhwhozat> | what about the Red witch? |
| 01:15 | < afny> | which one is the most "powerful"? |
| 01:15 | < KarolineDianne> | POV..? |
| 01:15 | < afny> | point of view |
| 01:15 | < afny> | each character that has a chapter about them |
| 01:15 | < KarolineDianne> | I don't get it. |
| 01:15 | < afny> | you can't rank them in power |
| 01:16 | < KarolineDianne> | What are you even talking about I'm confused now |
| 01:16 | < afny> | each one is powerful in their own context; each one affects their world in their own way |
| 01:16 | < Draxinusom> | I get it, I just don't see that style as inherently better. |
| 01:16 | < afny> | I'm saying that an artificial imbalance of power in fantasy is a weak method of storytelling |
| 01:16 | < Draxinusom> | GoT |
| 01:16 | < huhwhozat> | but some definitely have more influence than others |
| 01:16 | < huhwhozat> | eg Tyrion |
| 01:16 | < afny> | they have more influence CONTEXTUALLY |
| 01:16 | < huhwhozat> | yes |
| 01:16 | < afny> | that's the distinction |
| 01:17 | < KarolineDianne> | In a wargame, I'm pretty sure it's acceptable to represent martial skill and power by making the character hit harder and more difficult to kill. |
| 01:17 | < huhwhozat> | as opposed to beings of power like, say, BadWolf from Dr. Who? |
| 01:17 | < afny> | contextually, a goblin is |
| 01:17 | < afny> | IN EVERY WAY |
| 01:17 | < Draxinusom> | I get it, I just also enjoy a good old clash of the gods story as well. |
| 01:17 | < afny> | inferior to a space marine |
| 01:17 | < afny> | in EVERY WAY |
| 01:17 | < afny> | that imbalance does not exist in asoiaf |
| 01:17 | < KarolineDianne> | That imbalance exists in reality. |
| 01:17 | < afny> | not true at all |
| 01:17 | < KarolineDianne> | >.> |
| 01:18 | < afny> | everyone has equal power contextually |
| 01:18 | < afny> | it just depends on circumstance |
| 01:18 | < KarolineDianne> | I'm not buying this at all. Doesn't make any sense. |
| 01:18 | < afny> | okay, here |
| 01:18 | < afny> | a person born into the SHITTIEST circumstance possible |
| 01:18 | < afny> | say you are born a slave |
| 01:18 | < huhwhozat> | so basically, afny: no one's Superman? |
| 01:19 | < afny> | with a terminal disease |
| 01:19 | < afny> | you have power contextually |
| 01:19 | < afny> | you have, to some extent, agency |
| 01:19 | < KarolineDianne> | Wat |
| 01:19 | < afny> | it is in disagreement with your context, almost entirely |
| 01:19 | < afny> | your life is your own in spite of context, but your context is overwhelming |
| 01:19 | < afny> | and then take someone born into wealth and health |
| 01:19 | < KarolineDianne> | This is all gibberish to me, I don't even know what you're going on about. |
| 01:20 | < afny> | they have the same agency only based on their context |
| 01:20 | < afny> | it's not gibberish :\ |
| 01:20 | < afny> | a person has power equal to their context, and no more |
| 01:20 | < afny> | basically what I'm saying is |
| 01:20 | < Draxinusom> | Let me see if I can translate |
| 01:20 | < KarolineDianne> | I literally have no idea what you mean. |
| 01:20 | < afny> | any IMBALANCE in real life is logarythmic |
| 01:20 | < huhwhozat> | => the sick beggar is just as inherently powerful as a rich warlord, but cannot realise that powwer because of circumstance? |
| 01:20 | < afny> | not exponential |
| 01:20 | < afny> | yes, pretty much |
| 01:20 | < KarolineDianne> | Dun make sense. |
| 01:21 | < afny> | why not? |
| 01:21 | <~McMartin> | You aren't nerding out enough here, folks. |
| 01:21 | <~McMartin> | Let me nerd this up for you |
| 01:21 | < huhwhozat> | ahaha |
| 01:21 | <~McMartin> | If you want combat to look more like RL power imbalances... |
| 01:21 | < huhwhozat> | I tried; Dr. Who...? |
| 01:21 | <~McMartin> | ... use GURPS instead of D&D. |
| 01:21 | < afny> | McMartin |
| 01:21 | < afny> | we should sex. |
| 01:21 | < afny> | You wanna sex? |
| 01:21 | <~McMartin> | No, not really. |
| 01:21 | < afny> | let's do the sexing. |
| 01:21 | < afny> | Oh, okay. |
| 01:21 | < afny> | Well. |
| 01:21 | < afny> | WELL. |
| 01:21 | < huhwhozat> | uh |
| 01:21 | < huhwhozat> | well this got awkward |
| 01:21 | <~McMartin> | Anyway |
| 01:22 | < Draxinusom> | Straight up power imbalance based on factors that are inherent like a species, are not cool in afny's book. |
| 01:22 | < afny> | :\ |
| 01:22 | < afny> | either way I agree. |
| 01:22 | < huhwhozat> | :P |
| 01:22 | < afny> | Gurps is much better. |
| 01:22 | <~McMartin> | GURPS's idea of HP between high and low durability is about five hitpoints, in a system where a sword strike does 2-8 damage and change. |
| 01:22 | < huhwhozat> | I haven't used GURPS but from this description, seems like I'd prefer it :D |
| 01:22 | <~McMartin> | Which is to say, if you get hit with a sharp object, you're done. |
| 01:22 | <~McMartin> | Hmm. |
| 01:22 | < afny> | even outside of the metaphorical implications of high power balance |
| 01:22 | < afny> | GURPS is just better because it's more INTENSE |
| 01:22 | < afny> | more immediate |
| 01:22 | < Draxinusom> | YEAH, ok there I'll agree with ya. I HATE HP in D&D |
| 01:22 | <~McMartin> | Suffice to say that GURPS breaks rather dramatically at high power levels. |
| 01:22 | < afny> | it keeps you grounded. |
| 01:22 | < KarolineDianne> | Because if someone is smarter, stronger, healthier, and more experienced than you... They are more powerful than you. If you're a dismembered leper with bad eyes, no education, and no experience outside of your little hermit cave, how are you just as powerful as a man who commands an army and can break someone in half with his bare hands? |
| 01:23 | < afny> | dnd breaks dramatically at high power levels as well |
| 01:23 | < afny> | even worse, arguably |
| 01:23 | < Draxinusom> | Right, but a stick in the eye kills either one |
| 01:23 | <~McMartin> | KarolineDianne: Because, leper aside, a 60-year-old with a cane will break you in half too. |
| 01:23 | < afny> | yeah, exactly |
| 01:23 | < Draxinusom> | It' |
| 01:23 | < KarolineDianne> | Perhaps, but one knows how to keep you from sticking them in the eye, while the other doesn't. |
| 01:23 | < afny> | the difference is can be measured logarithmically, not exponentially |
| 01:24 | < KarolineDianne> | One knows how to fight and defend themself, while the other is helpless. |
| 01:24 | < huhwhozat> | you can argue from either side though: potential power vs. effective power |
| 01:24 | <~McMartin> | potential vs. effective is fine. |
| 01:24 | <~McMartin> | *Equipment* is more than fine. |
| 01:24 | < Draxinusom> | Right, but that sort of power difference is acceptable to afny |
| 01:24 | < afny> | obviously a guy with a gun beats a guy without a gun |
| 01:24 | <~McMartin> | (GURPS has a notion of attributes, which is how the system breaks at high levels) |
| 01:24 | < huhwhozat> | hm |
| 01:24 | < Draxinusom> | A guy who can get shot 1000 times and shrug it off because he's JUST TOUGHER, is not |
| 01:24 | <~McMartin> | It is not obvious that skills IRL work the way attributes and skill points work in RPGs. |
| 01:24 | < KarolineDianne> | Unless the guy without a gun is wearing a bullet proof vest, or gets the drop on the guy with the gun, or the guy doesn't know how to use the gun. |
| 01:24 | < huhwhozat> | so many different shreds of conversation :P |
| 01:24 | < afny> | but that's logarithmic difference KD |
| 01:25 | <~McMartin> | Or the gun jams |
| 01:25 | < afny> | not exponential |
| 01:25 | < afny> | that's evening the playing field |
| 01:25 | <~McMartin> | Or the other guy has a sword and is within 20 feet or so |
| 01:25 | <~McMartin> | etc |
| 01:25 | <~McMartin> | etc |
| 01:25 | < afny> | all I'm saying is that kind of REALISTIC imbalance is more interesting |
| 01:25 | < afny> | in a narrative |
| 01:25 | <~McMartin> | Kind of |
| 01:25 | < afny> | than someone who is basically a god amongst men |
| 01:25 | <~McMartin> | Fallout 1 shows how that breaks >_> |
| 01:25 | <~McMartin> | Fallout 1's endgame combat was kind of busted. |
| 01:25 | < huhwhozat> | afny: have you read Brandon Sanderson at all? |
| 01:25 | < afny> | nope |
| 01:25 | < afny> | well I have read plenty of exceptions to the claim I just made |
| 01:25 | < KarolineDianne> | I find all of this silly. :I |
| 01:26 | < huhwhozat> | he has some superhumanly powerful characters that are very interesting |
| 01:26 | < afny> | but even then the people who are gods amongst men have realstic imbalances |
| 01:26 | < Draxinusom> | Oooook Mistborn |
| 01:26 | < afny> | take Dream in Sandman |
| 01:26 | < afny> | he's basically omnipotent |
| 01:26 | < KarolineDianne> | Yes, a knife to the gut is a knife to the gut. |
| 01:26 | < afny> | but he has his shortcomings that put him on the same level as anyone else |
| 01:26 | < huhwhozat> | "but even then the people who are gods amongst men have realstic imbalances" - yes |
| 01:26 | < KarolineDianne> | But some people know how to avoid the knife |
| 01:26 | < afny> | he's emotional, protective, and ultimately suicidal |
| 01:26 | < KarolineDianne> | And are thus more likely to not get hurt by it |
| 01:26 | < afny> | but avoiding the knife is not being an unkillable 200 pt death machine |
| 01:26 | < KarolineDianne> | And are thus better at combat |
| 01:26 | < afny> | it's rolling a 6 instead of a 2 |
| 01:26 | < KarolineDianne> | And are thus better than the mooks |
| 01:26 | < afny> | it's a difference of SCALE |
| 01:27 | < KarolineDianne> | And thus have better numbers and are superior. |
| 01:27 | < afny> | 6 vs 2 based on chance or 200 vs 8 based on predestination |
| 01:27 | < Draxinusom> | At the end of the day this is a just a matter of preference. I like em both |
| 01:27 | < afny> | that's the consideration you're making for your narrative |
| 01:27 | < afny> | and I will always choose option 1 |
| 01:27 | < huhwhozat> | yeah, in DnD a level 2 char gets stuck with a knife, no biggie; lv 1 - you may be bleeding out |
| 01:27 | < KarolineDianne> | I don't much like hit points in D&D either. |
| 01:28 | <~McMartin> | Actual DM advice, in one of the books: |
| 01:28 | <~McMartin> | "Never argue about hit points with a paramedic" |
| 01:28 | < afny> | lol |
| 01:28 | < Draxinusom> | Right, or consider a level 20 in D&D vs a level 1. There is essentially no way for the level 1 to win, almost. |
| 01:28 | <~McMartin> | Someone ran the numbers on the E6 variant of D&D and noted that the numbers work out fairly well for standard heroic fantasy |
| 01:28 | < huhwhozat> | the most recent session I played, I accidentally shot a lv5 fireball at the feet of my lv1 rogue |
| 01:28 | < afny> | exactly draxinusom |
| 01:28 | < afny> | but you can't be that reductive if you're trying to be realistic |
| 01:28 | < huhwhozat> | he was also carrying gunpowder |
| 01:29 | < KarolineDianne> | And in 40k, that 200pt death machine is an 8ft tall genetically modified cyborg in the best armor the Imperium has to offer, who's lived over a hundred years fighting countless wars.. So yes, he doesn't die as fast as the conscript guardsman. |
| 01:29 | <~McMartin> | afny: Yeah, but you don't want to be that realistic. |
| 01:29 | < afny> | why not? |
| 01:29 | < afny> | I dunno, like |
| 01:29 | < Draxinusom> | Right Karoline, afny jsut doesnt LIKE that |
| 01:29 | < afny> | I see the value of having imbalance |
| 01:29 | < afny> | well, it's not just that |
| 01:29 | < Draxinusom> | I knwo |
| 01:29 | < afny> | I just don't like it in the context of WARGAMES |
| 01:29 | <~McMartin> | It's kind of a downer, and it's unusually gruesome to work out precisely which kind of organ failure kills them. |
| 01:29 | < Draxinusom> | Right |
| 01:29 | < afny> | like I said, I don't have any problem with newtypes in gundam |
| 01:29 | < afny> | or gods in comics |
| 01:29 | < afny> | etc |
| 01:29 | <~McMartin> | If you want to spend most of your time rolling on hilarious failure tables, play Lifeoff |
| 01:29 | < afny> | it's just the way the stories are presented |
| 01:30 | <~McMartin> | *Liftoff |
| 01:30 | < huhwhozat> | McMartin: not in Dwarf Fortress! :D then it's FUN! |
| 01:30 | < Draxinusom> | Right |
| 01:30 | < afny> | and war games don't allow you to have these emotional "nerfs" to your godlike characters |
| 01:30 | <~McMartin> | huhwhozat: That's computer-refereed |
| 01:30 | < afny> | in any meaningful way |
| 01:30 | < afny> | so I think it cheapens the emergent narrative if you include them |
| 01:30 | < KarolineDianne> | Because his armor is better, and deflects most of the bullets. His skin has a subdermal shell that makes him harder to injure. He's 8ft tall and 300lbs of muscle. He has more combat experience than that entire platoon combined. |
| 01:30 | < huhwhozat> | McMartin: my DM's should be able to do what my computer does :P |
| 01:30 | < KarolineDianne> | But he can still die. |
| 01:30 | < KarolineDianne> | It's just harder to kill him. |
| 01:31 | < afny> | exponentially harder, though |
| 01:31 | < afny> | and that's my problem with it :\ |
| 01:31 | < Draxinusom> | We're not arguing that it's still balanced |
| 01:31 | < afny> | it implies that some people are EXPONENTIALLY better than others |
| 01:31 | < afny> | INHERENTLY better |
| 01:31 | < KarolineDianne> | You gotta get guns that'll break his armor and be good enough to actually get a solid hit on him. That's about it. |
| 01:31 | < afny> | I think wh4k is a balanced game |
| 01:31 | < afny> | I just don't like the implications |
| 01:31 | < huhwhozat> | afny: But they're *walking tanks*! |
| 01:31 | < afny> | lol |
| 01:31 | < afny> | the great thing about the solar calendar is that |
| 01:31 | < Draxinusom> | It's basically that he feels that it's not a GOOD thing to be that imbalanced even if they make up for it by setting the odds at 100 troops to 1 mech |
| 01:32 | < afny> | you CAN download a walking tank |
| 01:32 | < KarolineDianne> | The exponentially better ones are really just part of the 'we're special named dudes so we're better' thing. |
| 01:32 | < KarolineDianne> | Which is silly on a realistic level, yes. |
| 01:32 | <~McMartin> | huhwhozat: Takes longer, is more tedious |
| 01:32 | < afny> | but there's no balance |
| 01:32 | < KarolineDianne> | But it's supposed to be cinematic. |
| 01:32 | < afny> | I'm no slave to realism |
| 01:32 | < KarolineDianne> | And cool. |
| 01:32 | <~McMartin> | KarolineDianne: Well, GURPS tries to do that too, with extra rules. |
| 01:32 | < afny> | but in good storytelling |
| 01:32 | < huhwhozat> | McMArtin: jk jk |
| 01:32 | < afny> | the cool named badasses |
| 01:32 | < afny> | they're still BELIEVABLE because of their flaws |
| 01:32 | < afny> | not in spite of them |
| 01:33 | < afny> | you accept them because even though you know they will never die and always overcome |
| 01:33 | < afny> | you still feel like they have to fight for it |
| 01:33 | < KarolineDianne> | Well, playing a game of 40k isn't about telling a story, it's about rolling dice with cool minis and watching awesome dudes blow up stuff |
| 01:33 | < Draxinusom> | I guess I just like some stuff where I DONT relate to the characters |
| 01:33 | < afny> | and not in a GRINDY way |
| 01:33 | < afny> | I guess, I just think it SHOULD be |
| 01:33 | < afny> | that's why the solar calendar is so cool |
| 01:33 | < afny> | it's got dice and awesome dudes and minis |
| 01:33 | < KarolineDianne> | Solar Calendar? |
| 01:33 | < afny> | but it's also got a great emergent story |
| 01:33 | < Draxinusom> | The MF0:RA setting |
| 01:34 | | * KarolineDianne shrugs |
| 01:34 | < afny> | I think your definition of "cinematic" is extremely limited |
| 01:34 | < KarolineDianne> | MF0 is just 'lego robots blowing up stuff' to me. |
| 01:34 | < afny> | yeah, but it isn't if you dig a little deeper |
| 01:34 | < afny> | if you look at the context or the setting at all, you see it isn't just that |
| 01:34 | < Draxinusom> | I agree that the Solar Calendar is setup that way and I like it for that. But I'd also enjoy the other |
| 01:34 | < afny> | that's half the reason I like the game so much; the other half is the elegant ruleset |
| 01:34 | < KarolineDianne> | But it is. I don't really care about the setting much at all. |
| 01:35 | < afny> | that's fine, but that isn't valid grounds to dismiss a claim :\ |
| 01:35 | < afny> | that's an appeal to ignorance |
| 01:35 | < Draxinusom> | And therein lies the root of the discussion. Everyone likes different things, and cares about different things. |
| 01:35 | < KarolineDianne> | I mean, sure it's well written, but the backstory has literally zero effect on the gameplay. |
| 01:35 | < KarolineDianne> | At all. |
| 01:35 | < huhwhozat> | afny: we have, like the exact same reasons for liking MF0 |
| 01:35 | < afny> | zero effect on the MECHANICS, maybe |
| 01:35 | < afny> | but I think it dramatically changes the gameplay |
| 01:35 | < afny> | at least for me |
| 01:35 | < huhwhozat> | very effective on the feel |
| 01:35 | < afny> | because I experience it holistically |
| 01:36 | < KarolineDianne> | Because you custom make your robots from scratch, and they're all blank slates, and there's -no- story tied to the rules. |
| 01:36 | < afny> | THE FEELS |
| 01:36 | < afny> | it goes DIRECTLY to the feels. |
| 01:36 | < huhwhozat> | I HAS THEM! |
| 01:36 | | * afny knows that feel. |
| 01:36 | | * huhwhozat warned you about feels, bro |
| 01:36 | < afny> | it's the blank state factor that makes it so FEELY, though. |
| 01:36 | < KarolineDianne> | Whereas in 40k the characters and units and rules are all tied to the setting very tightly. Because everything is premade. |
| 01:37 | < KarolineDianne> | In MF0, there's nothing that tells me why my robot does what it does except for whatever reasons I make up. |
| 01:37 | < afny> | and I just feel that's a much more honest way to come by an emergent story |
| 01:37 | < KarolineDianne> | In 40k, why is Kharn the Betrayer so fucking powerful in melee? Because he's the CHOSEN ONE OF THE BLOOD GOD WAAAAAGh |
| 01:37 | < Draxinusom> | To me though the making your OWN reason for them to exist is more powerful and, as its realistic in the power context, It's more feely from the perspective of your troops. |
| 01:37 | < huhwhozat> | wait... WAAAGH is Orks. |
| 01:37 | < KarolineDianne> | And he has his own miniature, backstory, special abilities, statline, etc. |
| 01:38 | < afny> | yeah, Draxinusom, that's surely a party of it too |
| 01:38 | < afny> | it forces you to consider your soldier's perspective |
| 01:38 | < huhwhozat> | rather than having it prewritten |
| 01:38 | < afny> | ^ |
| 01:38 | < huhwhozat> | hence, inherently more identifiable |
| 01:38 | < huhwhozat> | because YOU MADE IT :D |
| 01:38 | < KarolineDianne> | There's a solid, firm, concrete, definitive reason for why things are the way they are. MF0 is a nifty and well made ruleset with a setting that's sold with it on the side. It's not even attached. It's just there as an example. |
| 01:39 | < KarolineDianne> | And that's fine. |
| 01:39 | < Draxinusom> | It's really a style difference in my opinion. I think it sounds like you (afny) would rather create a hero in the context of a single MF0 battle (i.e. today Jimmy over there kicked some ass and won us this battle) rather than have it be a nameless pile of Orcs who did it, or a single godlike character. |
| 01:41 | < huhwhozat> | orKs! |
| 01:41 | < huhwhozat> | with a K! |
| 01:41 | < Draxinusom> | Karoline, thats why he DOESNT like it. It's a pre-written story in a game where we're making it up as we go along, playing those characters. He'd rather play someone he can relate to. |
| 01:41 | < KarolineDianne> | So make someone you relate to. |
| 01:41 | < Draxinusom> | Sorry, my normal opponent plays Orks and I use the C to annoy him sometimes. |
| 01:41 | < huhwhozat> | I'll bet, what he doesn't like is people putting words in his mouth >.> |
| 01:42 | < huhwhozat> | Daxinusom: :P |
| 01:42 | < Draxinusom> | Exactly, but you CANT make someone you relate to in 40k. |
| 01:42 | < Draxinusom> | They're all built in |
| 01:42 | < KarolineDianne> | Yes I can. |
| 01:42 | < afny> | lol |
| 01:42 | < Draxinusom> | I'm not trying to put words in his mouth, and I sincerely apologize if it's coming across that way |
| 01:42 | < afny> | huhwhozat |
| 01:42 | < afny> | you understand me |
| 01:43 | < afny> | lol |
| 01:43 | < huhwhozat> | jk, drax, all in good humor |
| 01:43 | < KarolineDianne> | I don't run my armies with the named characters. I make my own. But they're still tied to the setting. My sorcerer, Seraphos, has a backstory I've written to go along with his miniature and such. He uses the rules for a chaos sorcerer, because he is a chaos sorcerer. |
| 01:43 | < Draxinusom> | Just trying to help along the discussion in a constructive manner. |
| 01:43 | < KarolineDianne> | But he's MY chaos sorcerer. |
| 01:43 | < huhwhozat> | afny: rawk |
| 01:43 | < KarolineDianne> | And I like knowing that he's going to be awesome because he's the immortal leader of a legion of chaos marines. |
| 01:44 | < afny> | it's not any harder to identify with an imbalanced, exponentially superor character than it is to identify with a realstic one |
| 01:44 | < Draxinusom> | Well that's cool too, again I said I DO enjoy the 40k style of play as well. I just like it for different reasons than MF0 |
| 01:44 | < afny> | in fact, that's what makes it so insidious |
| 01:44 | < huhwhozat> | good word |
| 01:44 | < KarolineDianne> | So backing off from 40k and back to MF0 |
| 01:44 | < afny> | it's all tied to this assumption that some people are inherently better; even if you don't believe it in the context of real life, there's this metaphorical connection in your emergent fiction |
| 01:44 | < Draxinusom> | I mean I do own a 4000ish point Blood Angels army |
| 01:45 | < huhwhozat> | dayum |
| 01:45 | < Draxinusom> | lol |
| 01:45 | < KarolineDianne> | When I do my fantasy army with the MF0 rules, the platoons of foot soldiers will count as a single Frame, the line of charging cavalry will be a single Frame, and then Warmaster Skorukan, Lich King of the Moran Empire will stand alone... As a single Frame. |
| 01:45 | < KarolineDianne> | Because he's that awesome. |
| 01:46 | < huhwhozat> | before he became a Lich King, was he stabbable? |
| 01:46 | < KarolineDianne> | And even though it's exactly the same as running three frames, it LOOKS and FEELS like I've got an army of dudes of different power. |
| 01:46 | < Draxinusom> | It's a philosophical difference, not a mechanical one |
| 01:46 | < KarolineDianne> | I'm actually still working out his 'origins' |
| 01:47 | < Draxinusom> | I dont think we're arguing that it's mechanically different |
| 01:47 | < afny> | yeah, we're not |
| 01:47 | < afny> | at least I'm not |
| 01:47 | < Draxinusom> | Right |
| 01:47 | < huhwhozat> | afny: I'm reminded of Gudam - "Don't think you're better than me just because of your fancy suit" |
| 01:47 | < afny> | I'm just illustrating WHY I have this preference |
| 01:47 | < afny> | and why I feel so strongly about it |
| 01:47 | < afny> | yeah, exactly |
| 01:47 | < afny> | and, in fact, Amuro IS better |
| 01:47 | < afny> | but only by a tiny margin |
| 01:48 | < afny> | his suit is better, his instincts are sharper, his education is better |
| 01:48 | < afny> | but it's a hair's breadth |
| 01:48 | < huhwhozat> | spoilers! :P |
| 01:48 | < afny> | well I mean |
| 01:48 | < afny> | lol |
| 01:48 | < huhwhozat> | jk lol |
| 01:48 | < Draxinusom> | Maybe I should get into Gundam |
| 01:48 | < KarolineDianne> | Would you argue that Sauron is just as powerful as a lone Orc? |
| 01:48 | < afny> | watch the first 3 movies |
| 01:48 | < afny> | Mobile Suit Gundam |
| 01:48 | < huhwhozat> | afny convinced me to watch them |
| 01:48 | < huhwhozat> | is worth it |
| 01:48 | < huhwhozat> | so far |
| 01:49 | < Draxinusom> | No, they're not. In that setting there ARE some crazy power level differences |
| 01:49 | < afny> | if you want to make that comparison you have to understand LotR int he context of a Great War allegory though |
| 01:49 | < KarolineDianne> | wat |
| 01:49 | < afny> | have you read lotr? |
| 01:49 | < KarolineDianne> | I tried to once. |
| 01:49 | < Draxinusom> | OMG |
| 01:49 | < huhwhozat> | O.o |
| 01:49 | < KarolineDianne> | I couldn't stick with the books. |
| 01:49 | < afny> | you can't really have a serious discussion about the metaphorical content of lotr if you haven't read it |
| 01:49 | < KarolineDianne> | Only seen the movies. |
| 01:49 | < afny> | the movies are veeeeeeery shallow |
| 01:50 | < huhwhozat> | yarly :/ (Faramir) |
| 01:50 | < Draxinusom> | The Silmarillion is my friend |
| 01:50 | < afny> | :D |
| 01:50 | < Draxinusom> | and the histories |
| 01:50 | < huhwhozat> | hmm I was kinda enh about Silamril |
| 01:50 | < Draxinusom> | I have crazy leather bound copies |
| 01:50 | < afny> | I admit I can't read through it like I can the hobbot or lotr |
| 01:50 | < afny> | but it's cool as a reference |
| 01:50 | < huhwhozat> | I mean it was cool and all, but it felt disjointed |
| 01:50 | < Draxinusom> | Well it was |
| 01:50 | < afny> | yeah, it's like a textbook |
| 01:51 | < huhwhozat> | I suppose |
| 01:51 | < Draxinusom> | It was written in tiny pieces |
| 01:51 | < afny> | also |
| 01:51 | < afny> | "hobbot" |
| 01:51 | < afny> | :| |
| 01:51 | < Draxinusom> | and then assembles by his son after he died |
| 01:51 | < huhwhozat> | yeah, well I guess I tried to read it like a novel, so that be my bad |
| 01:51 | < Draxinusom> | But I love it for the context it puts LotR in |
| 01:51 | < huhwhozat> | oh yes! |
| 01:51 | < huhwhozat> | very much so! |
| 01:51 | < afny> | but even just with the books |
| 01:52 | < afny> | even without the appendixes |
| 01:52 | < afny> | the context is so broad |
| 01:52 | < Draxinusom> | Yeah |
| 01:52 | < afny> | and the movie doesn't hit a FRACTION of it |
| 01:52 | < huhwhozat> | like the war of the Ring was very much a minor scale conflict |
| 01:52 | < Draxinusom> | I mean, a hobbit saves the world |
| 01:52 | < afny> | even the time scale is DRAMATICALLY altered |
| 01:52 | < Draxinusom> | Oh yeah |
| 01:52 | < Draxinusom> | SO annoyed at the movies |
| 01:52 | < Draxinusom> | I mean, I love/hate them |
| 01:52 | < huhwhozat> | super important, but just the end of a LOOOONG series of events |
| 01:52 | < Draxinusom> | I was fuming after Two Towers |
| 01:52 | < afny> | yeah, I mean, I like them too |
| 01:52 | < afny> | but they fucking suck |
| 01:52 | < afny> | lol. |
| 01:52 | < Draxinusom> | RIGHT |
| 01:53 | < huhwhozat> | in a way, yea |
| 01:53 | < KarolineDianne> | Regardless, my point is that in fantasy settings, ones where there are magic and gods and demons and such, there are going to be 'imbalances'. Because a 12 foot tall demon made of fire is not equal in any way to a human child. And a nihilistic psychopath given boons of power by an evil god is definitevely more powerful than a typical foot soldier... Which is why you send the paladin who's been blessed with gifts from the godde |
| 01:53 | < afny> | again, I point you to grrm |
| 01:53 | < Draxinusom> | I wanted to shoot someone when the elves arrived at Helm's Deep |
| 01:53 | < afny> | fantasy without that inherent imbalance |
| 01:53 | < afny> | a better brand of fantasy, I argue |
| 01:53 | < huhwhozat> | Drax: yeah.... |
| 01:53 | < KarolineDianne> | I cannot fathom that. Doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying 2+2=9 |
| 01:53 | < afny> | yeah but THEY SURFED DOWN STEPS ON THEIR SHIELDS UMG |
| 01:53 | < Draxinusom> | No |
| 01:53 | < afny> | I'm sorry you don't understand math, then :P |
| 01:54 | < huhwhozat> | for various defnitions of 9..... |
| 01:54 | < KarolineDianne> | :I |
| 01:54 | < afny> | like, just because you CAN make fantasy illustrate concepts of inherently exponential imbalance |
| 01:54 | < afny> | you don't HAVE to |
| 01:54 | < KarolineDianne> | I don't understand how you can't |
| 01:55 | < afny> | there's nothing about the genre that encourages it |
| 01:55 | < KarolineDianne> | Without making it... Not fantasy |
| 01:55 | < Draxinusom> | Anfy correct me if I'm wrong, but you aren't saying that a demon = human child, you're saying you like it less when the story uses those kinds of impalances |
| 01:55 | < afny> | it's just a tripe. |
| 01:55 | < afny> | trope* |
| 01:55 | < huhwhozat> | ooh, that reminds me. I was talking about n-dimensional vectors on the way home from work - pointing out how fun they are to use |
| 01:55 | < afny> | well, it's tripe as well |
| 01:55 | < afny> | well like I said grrm does it; that's my current example |
| 01:55 | < huhwhozat> | grrm? |
| 01:55 | < afny> | george r r martin |
| 01:55 | < huhwhozat> | ah |
| 01:55 | < afny> | game of thrones guy |
| 01:55 | < huhwhozat> | yeah |
| 01:55 | < Draxinusom> | For now, I'm still worried about the White Walkers |
| 01:55 | < afny> | like, that doesn't contain the kind of imbalance you're discussing |
| 01:56 | < afny> | yeah you might be right drax, but I'll wait and see |
| 01:56 | < huhwhozat> | WW are imba! NERF! NERF! |
| 01:56 | < Draxinusom> | At least not in sentient species, yet |
| 01:56 | < KarolineDianne> | So it just plain doesn't have demons and wizards and... Fantasy stuff... Right? :I |
| 01:56 | < afny> | yeah it does |
| 01:56 | < afny> | it has all that stuff |
| 01:56 | < KarolineDianne> | Then you're not making any sense. |
| 01:56 | < Draxinusom> | But the power difference is less |
| 01:56 | < afny> | but the wizards and the demons and the dragon riders are only LOGARITHMICALLY more powerful than any commoner |
| 01:56 | < KarolineDianne> | STOP USING WORDS THAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND |
| 01:56 | < afny> | use wikipedia |
| 01:56 | < KarolineDianne> | Loga wat |
| 01:57 | < afny> | it's got a nice little line graph |
| 01:57 | < afny> | okay, like |
| 01:57 | < afny> | exponential is like |
| 01:57 | < huhwhozat> | _/ |
| 01:57 | < huhwhozat> | that |
| 01:57 | < afny> | lol |
| 01:57 | < KarolineDianne> | Exponential is a curve that starts off slow and ends up super high |
| 01:57 | < Draxinusom> | lol |
| 01:57 | < afny> | I tried to emote it but I couldn't |
| 01:57 | < afny> | that's a good one |
| 01:57 | < afny> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_growth |
| 01:57 | < KarolineDianne> | I know what exponential means. |
| 01:57 | < afny> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithm |
| 01:57 | < afny> | well |
| 01:57 | < afny> | logarithmic is the 'opposite' |
| 01:57 | < huhwhozat> | __--''' |
| 01:57 | < afny> | as far as growth trends are concerned |
| 01:57 | < KarolineDianne> | wat |
| 01:57 | < huhwhozat> | ^doesn't work so well |
| 01:58 | < KarolineDianne> | So they get more powerful even faster? |
| 01:58 | < afny> | it's inverted! |
| 01:58 | < afny> | no |
| 01:58 | < afny> | look at the graph lol |
| 01:58 | < afny> | it's very illustrative |
| 01:58 | < KarolineDianne> | That's what I see. |
| 01:58 | < KarolineDianne> | They jump to the top even faster |
| 01:58 | < afny> | okay, uh |
| 01:58 | < afny> | look at the expo graph and the log graph side by side |
| 01:58 | < afny> | imagine the y axis is 'strength' |
| 01:58 | < afny> | and the x axis is circumstance |
| 01:58 | < afny> | with exponential growth |
| 01:59 | < KarolineDianne> | Circumstance? |
| 01:59 | < KarolineDianne> | Wat |
| 01:59 | < afny> | like, situation |
| 01:59 | < KarolineDianne> | How do you measure 'situation' |
| 01:59 | < afny> | birth, guns, education, muscles, boobs, whatever |
| 01:59 | < afny> | it can be anything |
| 01:59 | < afny> | with exponential growth, you are, for lack of a better word, EXPONENTIALLY better |
| 01:59 | < afny> | there are no diminishing returns |
| 02:00 | < Draxinusom> | Right, like in reality no human is ever THAT much cooler than another. |
| 02:00 | < afny> | with logarthmic growth, you start to see diminishing returns right away no matter how fortunate your circumstance |
| 02:00 | < KarolineDianne> | I dun get it. |
| 02:00 | < afny> | there is a point of high growth; that's the difference between having a gun and not having a gun |
| 02:00 | < afny> | but when you get further along the x axis |
| 02:00 | < afny> | you're just making your gun slightly better |
| 02:00 | < afny> | and then SLIGHTLY better |
| 02:00 | < afny> | and then only very, ver, slightly better |
| 02:01 | < afny> | as opposed to WHOA NOW THIS GUN CAN KILL HITLER AND I CAN FIRE IT WITH MY PENIS AND IT ALTERS TIME |
| 02:01 | < afny> | I can now maybe kill the other guy faster if I have good aim. |
| 02:01 | < afny> | the curves of the graphs illustrate this |
| 02:01 | < afny> | because one has diminishing returns and one has increasing returns |
| 02:01 | < afny> | based on how far along you are on the x axis |
| 02:02 | < KarolineDianne> | Expo: Takes you til 4 to even start moving up. You slowly start gaining momentum til you're pointing mostly up at 9. Logo: You're pointing straight up from the get go and move right up to 1, then 2. But then slow down and it takes you til 8 to get up to 3. |
| 02:02 | < Draxinusom> | To put it in numbers, on the log scale: Base Human is a 1 say, then human with gun is 5, then human with better gun is 6, etc |
| 02:02 | < KarolineDianne> | So yes. Logo makes you go up faster, but then you plateau. |
| 02:02 | < afny> | exactly |
| 02:03 | < KarolineDianne> | Expo starts out slow as hell and then skyrockets. |
| 02:03 | < afny> | that gun makes you move up REAL FAST |
| 02:03 | < afny> | but once you've got a gun |
| 02:03 | < Draxinusom> | expo scale is human 1, human with gun, 2, demon, 30000 |
| 02:03 | < afny> | how much stronger can you get |
| 02:03 | < afny> | with expo |
| 02:03 | < afny> | well |
| 02:03 | < afny> | everyone has a gun |
| 02:03 | < Draxinusom> | sure |
| 02:03 | < afny> | but you can eventually turn your gun into a cannon that fires black holes |
| 02:03 | < KarolineDianne> | pfft |
| 02:03 | < afny> | and also instantly causes you to orgasm |
| 02:04 | < KarolineDianne> | well sure, I like keeping things from getting too powerful. It's why I prefer my D&D games to be in the lv 6-10 range, and never really go above that. It's why I run my MnM games at Power Level 6. |
| 02:04 | < afny> | so you appreciate where I'm coming from MECHANICALLY |
| 02:04 | < afny> | now apply that to the narrative |
| 02:04 | < afny> | and you'll see what I'm sayn' |
| 02:05 | < KarolineDianne> | I don't like super saiyans |
| 02:05 | < huhwhozat> | afny: you probably would not enjoy gurren lagann :P |
| 02:05 | < afny> | ironically I fucking love gurren lagaan |
| 02:05 | | * KarolineDianne burns TTGL to ash |
| 02:05 | < KarolineDianne> | >:| |
| 02:05 | < afny> | mostly for the animation |
| 02:05 | < KarolineDianne> | I hate things with characters who are stupidly overpowered. |
| 02:05 | < afny> | but the protagonists are believable! |
| 02:05 | < KarolineDianne> | I can't stand most anime |
| 02:05 | < afny> | that argument is just so >:| |
| 02:06 | < huhwhozat> | afny: yeah but they throw galaxies n stuff :P |
| 02:06 | < afny> | characters who are super overpowered |
| 02:06 | < afny> | EVERY EMERGENT STORYLINE IN WH4K FEATURES THIS FIRST AND FOREMOST |
| 02:06 | < afny> | at least in anime the characters are emotionally reconcialable |
| 02:06 | < huhwhozat> | *some anime |
| 02:06 | < afny> | -a |
| 02:06 | < afny> | yeah, okay |
| 02:06 | < afny> | GOOD anime I mean |
| 02:06 | < huhwhozat> | :P |
| 02:06 | < afny> | I should just say good stories |
| 02:07 | < huhwhozat> | mm |
| 02:07 | < KarolineDianne> | There's a difference between 'big guy in heavy armor with high tech guns' and 'skinny teenager who can toss cars and blow up entire cities by snapping his fingers' |
| 02:07 | < afny> | it's unfair to judge anime categorically |
| 02:07 | < afny> | but a high point value wh4k is much closer to the latter than the former |
| 02:07 | < afny> | much, MUCH closer |
| 02:07 | < afny> | wh4k unit* |
| 02:08 | < afny> | just because a spehs marine isn't skinny or a teenager doesn't mean he isn't as contextually out of place as a super saiyan |
| 02:08 | < KarolineDianne> | to me, independent characters in 40k are more like... Watching Leonidas kill dudes like a boss in 300... And less like watchign some skinny twerp with an oversized sword and a horrible fashion sense fly around and cut skyscrapers in half. |
| 02:09 | < afny> | hate to break it to you but |
| 02:09 | < afny> | leonidas fucking dies |
| 02:09 | < afny> | because he's outnumbered as fuck |
| 02:09 | < KarolineDianne> | Yes, he does. |
| 02:09 | < KarolineDianne> | After cutting a bloody swathe through his enemies. |
| 02:09 | < Draxinusom> | Yeah, that happens in 40k too |
| 02:10 | < afny> | well, sure, and that's why I wouldn't choose 300 to illustrate my preference :p |
| 02:10 | < KarolineDianne> | SOme of my best moments in 40k are when someone takes a brood of 50 alien bugs down to 10 alien bugs singlehandedly over the course of three turns, before dying. |
| 02:10 | < afny> | but again, the difference is one is acceptable in linear fiction because leonidas still has FLAWS |
| 02:10 | < afny> | and that is made clear through the narrative |
| 02:10 | < afny> | while it isn't in an emergent story about a khorne berserker that is better than everyone else just because he is stronger. |
| 02:11 | < afny> | it's got this implicit authoritarian metaphor that is unmitigated as a similar linear storyline would be mitigated by the emotional depth of a phsyically powerful character |
| 02:11 | < KarolineDianne> | So I should make all my models and units in my wargames boring rank-and-file troops with nothing special or fancy. |
| 02:11 | < afny> | well, I guess this is where I make the mechanical disctinction |
| 02:11 | < Draxinusom> | No no, make whatever you like, but afny wont play that one probably |
| 02:11 | < afny> | if you look at my mfz companies you see I don't make that kind of model at all |
| 02:12 | < afny> | but my characters are only better based on the systems they use or the dice they roll |
| 02:12 | < afny> | it's only a small advantage. |
| 02:12 | < KarolineDianne> | Well, mf0 has the advantage of 'you only have 3-8 dudes, so you can give them all names and personalities' |
| 02:12 | < KarolineDianne> | But when you run an army of dozens of rank and file troops |
| 02:12 | < afny> | it's still the same |
| 02:12 | < KarolineDianne> | That's less of an option. |
| 02:12 | < afny> | unless you elevate one unit to the power level of a plate of 200 |
| 02:13 | < afny> | THAT'S where the divide comes in |
| 02:13 | < afny> | not the naming or lack of naming |
| 02:13 | < afny> | or pretty colors on a frame |
| 02:13 | < afny> | again why I prefer a song of ice and fire or lord of the rings |
| 02:13 | < afny> | those stories have heroes that are contextually powerful |
| 02:13 | < KarolineDianne> | You've lost me now. |
| 02:13 | < afny> | but wars are won by equal forces |
| 02:14 | < afny> | er |
| 02:14 | < afny> | no, that was a stupid comment |
| 02:14 | < afny> | wars are FOUGHT by forces that are ostensibly equal |
| 02:14 | < afny> | or else there is no context |
| 02:14 | < afny> | conteST* |
| 02:14 | < KarolineDianne> | .-. |
| 02:14 | < afny> | everything up until you said I lost you made sense :P |
| 02:15 | < afny> | what I'm trying to say, basically |
| 02:15 | < afny> | is that the struggle in, FOR INSTANCE |
| 02:15 | < afny> | the war of the ring |
| 02:15 | < afny> | is pretty evenly balanced |
| 02:15 | < afny> | on both sides |
| 02:15 | < KarolineDianne> | Even though Sauron was a towering badass who send dudes flying with each swing? |
| 02:16 | < Draxinusom> | I'm going to argue that a little |
| 02:16 | < KarolineDianne> | And had the Nazgul |
| 02:16 | < afny> | and on the other side you've got Gandalf |
| 02:16 | < afny> | and the elves |
| 02:16 | <~McMartin> | Sauron and Gandalf are of equivalent power. |
| 02:16 | < afny> | ^ |
| 02:16 | < Draxinusom> | Sauron's forces pretty much wipe the floor with everyone else, or would have |
| 02:16 | < KarolineDianne> | But see, Gandalf and Sauron are the special characters |
| 02:16 | < KarolineDianne> | The rohan soldiers and the orcs are the mooks |
| 02:16 | < afny> | yeah |
| 02:16 | < afny> | they're GODS |
| 02:16 | < afny> | but they're emotionally relatable |
| 02:16 | < KarolineDianne> | Gods, angels, etc. |
| 02:16 | < KarolineDianne> | Forget the official name |
| 02:16 | < afny> | :\ |
| 02:17 | < afny> | no, that's important |
| 02:17 | < afny> | you need to understand their motivation |
| 02:17 | < afny> | and their history |
| 02:17 | < KarolineDianne> | Sure, story wise, yes. |
| 02:17 | < afny> | sauron is, at least someone, RELATABLE, in the way that, say, Lucifer is a relatable character |
| 02:17 | < KarolineDianne> | But MECHANICALLY in a GAME with NUMBERS AND DICE... They're -better- |
| 02:17 | < KarolineDianne> | They have better stats |
| 02:17 | < afny> | but that's what I mean; the more you can build your narrative context |
| 02:17 | < KarolineDianne> | Because they're more powerful. |
| 02:17 | < afny> | and ground your imbalanced characters emotionally |
| 02:18 | < afny> | the more imbalance you can get away with |
| 02:18 | < afny> | and because you CANNOT do that in a wargame, or at least it isn't done in the wargames I've played |
| 02:18 | < KarolineDianne> | I'm not arguing against that. Story/narrative wise, that's all true |
| 02:18 | < afny> | you shouldn't take the liberties with an expontial power difference |
| 02:18 | < afny> | because the story that emerges if you do |
| 02:18 | < afny> | has unhealthy implications |
| 02:18 | < afny> | about the nature of power and inherent worth |
| 02:19 | < KarolineDianne> | But in a wargame, just because you aren't telling a story or narrative doesn't mean you shouldn't represent things LIKE gandalf and sauron. |
| 02:19 | < afny> | sure, but only if you can do it in the proper context |
| 02:19 | < afny> | which I argue wh4k COMPLETELY fails to do |
| 02:19 | < KarolineDianne> | Just because you're playing a random battle in a game doesn't mean you shouldn't have someone play 50 zakus versus your three newtypes. |
| 02:20 | < afny> | it doesn't mean you shouldn't unless your story plays out in a way that doesn't say anything useful |
| 02:20 | < afny> | which means balancing your newtypes and your zaku pilots realistically |
| 02:20 | < afny> | again, that can mean balancing MECHANICALLY |
| 02:20 | < afny> | or balancing in the narrative |
| 02:21 | < afny> | but it's much harder to balance the narrative if you're just relying on dice to tell the story. |
| 02:21 | < KarolineDianne> | Because that's silly. Those elements are there because of the story and the context, yes. But just because you're playing a game without the story doesn't mean you can't use the same concept to represent the same thing in a mechanical rules and numbers manner. |
| 02:21 | < afny> | in Gundam, it's balanced because Amuro is just like any other person who fights a war |
| 02:21 | < afny> | he gets TOTALLY FUCKED UP PSYCHOLOGICALLY |
| 02:21 | < KarolineDianne> | OKay, cool. |
| 02:21 | < afny> | but you can't portray that in wh4k, so the emergent storyline is |
| 02:21 | < afny> | for lack of a better term |
| 02:21 | < afny> | WHACK |
| 02:21 | < KarolineDianne> | Tell me how that effects me at all in my tabletop game? |
| 02:22 | < afny> | because the emergent story you receive if you don't consider this stuff is weak sauce |
| 02:22 | < KarolineDianne> | Wat |
| 02:22 | < afny> | it's not useful, it's not important |
| 02:22 | < afny> | I demand more of my games, I guess |
| 02:22 | < afny> | but it isn't just an arbitrary selection based on "preference" |
| 02:22 | < KarolineDianne> | I think you're missing the point of 'random tabletop battles' |
| 02:22 | < Draxinusom> | All you say when fighting that way in a wargame is big guy hits lots of little guys, maybe loses by sheer weight of numbers, end of story |
| 02:23 | < afny> | No, I think YOU are missing the point of random tabletop battles |
| 02:23 | < afny> | in that randomly generated tabletop battles CAN have more of a point than wh4k |
| 02:23 | < Draxinusom> | I think you guys just like the exact opposite things in wargames |
| 02:23 | < Draxinusom> | lol |
| 02:23 | < afny> | and we, as players (and consumers) could demand more |
| 02:23 | < Draxinusom> | Karoline seems to like the big booms and dice, in and of themselves |
| 02:24 | < afny> | I like them too |
| 02:24 | < KarolineDianne> | Random tabletop battle: "Hey, wanna fight my chaos marines?" "Sure, lemme get my nids" "How many points?" "How about 2000" *stuff blows up and dice roll* "That was fun." |
| 02:24 | < afny> | but I just don't think narrative heft and explosions are mutally exlcusive |
| 02:24 | < afny> | I think it's naive to divorce the two |
| 02:24 | < Draxinusom> | Right, but as a product of something else |
| 02:24 | < afny> | again, I don't think the process excuses the result |
| 02:24 | < afny> | I'd rather have a process that produces interesting results |
| 02:25 | < Draxinusom> | The booms alone arent interesting enough? |
| 02:25 | < KarolineDianne> | I really don't even understand what you're arguing anymore. |
| 02:25 | < afny> | drax just said it :\ |
| 02:25 | < afny> | why settle for popcorn when you can have dinner? |
| 02:25 | < Draxinusom> | lol |
| 02:25 | < afny> | I'm fucking hungry |
| 02:25 | < Draxinusom> | This is why I love chat vs voice |
| 02:26 | < Draxinusom> | I've been here eating chinese food for the last half hour |
| 02:26 | < afny> | lol |
| 02:26 | < Draxinusom> | :) |
| 02:26 | < afny> | i've been drinking cheap beer at a rate that would severely impede speech |
| 02:26 | < afny> | so |
| 02:26 | < afny> | I kind of know that feel. |
| 02:27 | < Draxinusom> | I've also been drinking hard cider, cheers! |
| 02:27 | < KarolineDianne> | To me, it's like this. Story forges narrative. CHaracters are powerful for contextual reasons. Cool. Make a game out of it. Use rules to represent what the powerful characters are able to do. Play game, and rules work with or without the story. |
| 02:27 | < afny> | my glass is empty or I would raise a toast |
| 02:27 | < KarolineDianne> | And you're telling me that the rules shouldn't represent the powerful people if there isn't a story |
| 02:27 | < KarolineDianne> | Which is ridiculous. |
| 02:27 | < afny> | why? |
| 02:27 | < afny> | why is it ridiculous to demand something like that from my entertainment |
| 02:27 | < afny> | why should I just accept GOOD ENOUGH from games workshop or blizzard or whatever |
| 02:28 | < afny> | if there are people like vincent and soren and joshua and valve to offer me better? |
| 02:28 | < KarolineDianne> | Because they're still there. Even if the backstory isn't attached to the specific game you're playing, there are still people who are better than others. By your logic, everyone would have the exact same stats and everything, and there'd be absolutely no variety in force organization at all. |
| 02:28 | < afny> | and more importantly, why should I resign myself to the role of consumer |
| 02:28 | < KarolineDianne> | Which makes no sense. |
| 02:28 | < afny> | when I can consume and produce at the same time |
| 02:28 | < afny> | again, you're not understanding the scale difference |
| 02:29 | < KarolineDianne> | It doesn't matter. |
| 02:29 | < afny> | it's a slippery slope argument :| |
| 02:29 | < afny> | just because people are MORE equal given context doesn't mean they are the same |
| 02:29 | < afny> | jsut because color is shaped like a wheel instead of a pyramid doesn't mean everything is grey |
| 02:29 | < KarolineDianne> | You're saying that that a game shouldn't have a powerful wizard like Gandalf in it unless it has a super well written story behind it. |
| 02:29 | < KarolineDianne> | Why? There are wizards. |
| 02:29 | < afny> | wizards that aren't emotionally believable are bad characters. |
| 02:29 | < KarolineDianne> | Hes' a wizard. He has magic. There. THat's all the reason you need. It's a goddamn war game, GO SHOOT FIREBALLS |
| 02:30 | < afny> | again, that's just accepting bad narrative at face value |
| 02:30 | < KarolineDianne> | Make up your own reason for him to be a wizard, he's just a piece of plastic on the table |
| 02:30 | < KarolineDianne> | You give him a name |
| 02:30 | < KarolineDianne> | You give him a story |
| 02:30 | < KarolineDianne> | The rules don't care, he's just numbers |
| 02:30 | < afny> | there's nothing wrong with the concept of "wizards" |
| 02:30 | < KarolineDianne> | Numbers that say he can shoot fireballs |
| 02:30 | < afny> | you can use them to great metaphorical affect |
| 02:30 | < afny> | ala LotR |
| 02:31 | < afny> | or you can use them as shitty mary sue archetypes |
| 02:31 | < afny> | ala most genre fiction :\ |
| 02:31 | < afny> | my problem isn't with "wizards" |
| 02:31 | < afny> | I love wizards :P |
| 02:31 | < afny> | but as you yourself said |
| 02:31 | < KarolineDianne> | Or you can just have an army in a random war game that has a wizard, which cost you points to buy, and has powers that make him more powerful than a common footsoldier. |
| 02:31 | < afny> | there's something cooler about a wizard in the 1-6 range |
| 02:31 | < afny> | than there is at level 20 |
| 02:32 | < afny> | right? I mean, you can at least meet me there |
| 02:32 | < KarolineDianne> | No, I just don't like super-powerful characters. |
| 02:32 | < afny> | exactly |
| 02:32 | < afny> | a wizard at level 6 is just badass |
| 02:32 | < afny> | he's not SUPER POWERED |
| 02:32 | < huhwhozat> | man, screw level 5+ wizards, all they take is fireball |
| 02:32 | < afny> | you can still get fucking shanked by a hobo |
| 02:32 | < afny> | and die |
| 02:32 | < KarolineDianne> | But you can still be a badass and objectively -better- than other people without being super op |
| 02:32 | < afny> | and if you extend your power imbalance much, MUCH further than that |
| 02:32 | < afny> | like Gandalf and Sauron |
| 02:32 | < afny> | you have characters that are weak to ETHICAL temptation |
| 02:33 | < afny> | you cannot |
| 02:33 | < afny> | you CANNOT |
| 02:33 | < afny> | be objectively better |
| 02:33 | < KarolineDianne> | But that doesn't take place in wargames. Wargames are about my army vs your army |
| 02:33 | < afny> | you can only be subjectively better. |
| 02:33 | < afny> | exactly! |
| 02:33 | < afny> | that's why it's hard to portray that kind of imbalance |
| 02:33 | < afny> | in wargames! |
| 02:33 | < afny> | that's exactly what I'm saying |
| 02:33 | < KarolineDianne> | My army has a swarm of bugs. Your army has a handful of trained and armored supersoldiers. |
| 02:33 | < afny> | if your only storytelling tools are armies and dice |
| 02:33 | < afny> | you need to think extra careful about how you use those tools |
| 02:33 | < afny> | or else the story you recieve |
| 02:34 | < afny> | --and wargames ARE a storytelling tool any way you slice it-- |
| 02:34 | < afny> | will be a shitty story. |
| 02:34 | < KarolineDianne> | My guys are really weak but they're cheap and come in large numbers. Your guys are few in number but are better than mine in every way by several degrees. |
| 02:34 | < KarolineDianne> | Let's fight |
| 02:34 | < KarolineDianne> | That's wargames. |
| 02:34 | < afny> | a mindless bug swarm army vs a handful of trained armored super soldiers fighting for their homeworld |
| 02:34 | < afny> | that's the story you're telling |
| 02:34 | < KarolineDianne> | Sure. |
| 02:35 | < afny> | now try to analyze it like you would a book |
| 02:35 | < KarolineDianne> | The rules don't care about that, though. Yo umake that up. |
| 02:35 | < afny> | see how long it takes you to get to a realy ethnocentric vietnam metaphor |
| 02:35 | < afny> | it's like two degrees, MAYBE |
| 02:35 | < afny> | that's generous. More like one. |
| 02:35 | | * McMartin coughs politely |
| 02:35 | < afny> | You could argue that it's more like world war 2; you could say it is a war that MUST be fought |
| 02:35 | < KarolineDianne> | So let's say one of your super soldiers is a veteran commander with special gear. He gets better stuff and improved stats. Let's say there's a second type of bug I have that's bigger, more armored, and stronger than the others. They have better stats and cost more. I |
| 02:35 | < afny> | because the enemy's goals are morally reprehensible |
| 02:35 | < afny> | BUT |
| 02:36 | < afny> | the SOLDIERS in world war 2 were not |
| 02:36 | < afny> | only their leaders |
| 02:36 | < afny> | they weren't mindless bugs at all. |
| 02:36 | < afny> | again, you're thinking mechanically |
| 02:36 | < afny> | not metaphorically |
| 02:36 | < KarolineDianne> | Mechanically is all that matters in wargames. |
| 02:36 | < afny> | not true at all |
| 02:36 | < KarolineDianne> | YOU supply the metaphors |
| 02:36 | < KarolineDianne> | YOU supply the narrative |
| 02:36 | < afny> | even if you don't CARE abou the story you generate |
| 02:36 | < afny> | you're still generating a story |
| 02:36 | < KarolineDianne> | YOU supply the context. |
| 02:36 | < KarolineDianne> | The game only supplies rules for who dies when the dice are rolled. |
| 02:36 | < afny> | sure, but if your context is mindless bugs vs righteous super soldiers |
| 02:37 | < afny> | you've generated a pretty bad context |
| 02:37 | < afny> | with gross implications |
| 02:37 | < KarolineDianne> | What gross implications? |
| 02:37 | < afny> | ;| |
| 02:37 | < KarolineDianne> | Like really |
| 02:37 | < afny> | the ones I just outlines; the implication that one side in a war is INHERENTLY more ethical, and not only the faction or its leaders goals |
| 02:37 | < KarolineDianne> | What's gross about that |
| 02:38 | < afny> | but the INHERENT VALUE and and ethics of the INDIVIDUAL SOLDIERS |
| 02:38 | < huhwhozat> | I beleive that's actually the point of the 40K universe: everyone is basically evil from the objective viewpoint |
| 02:38 | < KarolineDianne> | :| |
| 02:38 | < afny> | ie one side is mindless and evil, and the other has no choice but to fight and is good |
| 02:38 | < afny> | that situation will not ever exist in reality |
| 02:38 | < KarolineDianne> | Because reality sucks |
| 02:38 | < afny> | and to represent it metaphorically is not only not useful |
| 02:38 | < afny> | but gross. |
| 02:38 | < KarolineDianne> | How about this. |
| 02:38 | < afny> | if you think reality would be better if we were divided into the truly good |
| 02:38 | < KarolineDianne> | I absolutely ABHOR when the badguy is in any way relatable or right. |
| 02:38 | < afny> | and the truly evil |
| 02:39 | < afny> | I woldn't want to live in your reality. |
| 02:39 | < afny> | that's such black and white thinking |
| 02:39 | < huhwhozat> | ^ it'd be a helluva lot less confusing tho |
| 02:39 | < KarolineDianne> | Because I HATE needless death. |
| 02:39 | < afny> | that is almost never the case in reality; even the most evil, reprehensible person can be, at least marginally understood |
| 02:39 | < afny> | but their circumstance |
| 02:39 | < KarolineDianne> | I would rather run away than answer a draft because I know the other soldiers have lives, families, friends, dreams, etc. |
| 02:39 | < KarolineDianne> | They're people. |
| 02:39 | < afny> | even if that circumstance is just crippling mental illness or a malignant brain tumor |
| 02:39 | < KarolineDianne> | I don't like the idea of fighting people. |
| 02:40 | < afny> | but the problem is if you fight mindless bugs |
| 02:40 | < KarolineDianne> | I'd much rather fight faceless monsters |
| 02:40 | < afny> | those bugs IMMEDIATELY become a metaphor for people. |
| 02:40 | < KarolineDianne> | Who cannot be reasoned with |
| 02:40 | < KarolineDianne> | Or related to. |
| 02:40 | < afny> | again, it's the metaphorical implication that kind of story pukes out |
| 02:40 | < afny> | maybe not the INTENT, but that's how it reads either way |
| 02:40 | < KarolineDianne> | Because they will kill you. Period. You cannot avoid it. They will not negotiate, reason, or relate with you. They are monsters. And in self defense, you have to fight back. |
| 02:41 | < afny> | reality ISN'T black and white like that, and to try to force a narrative into that shape is reductivst |
| 02:41 | < afny> | and escapist |
| 02:41 | < KarolineDianne> | Perhaps I want to escape |
| 02:41 | < KarolineDianne> | Because this world is a horrific crapsack that I want nothing to do with. |
| 02:41 | < KarolineDianne> | :I |
| 02:41 | < afny> | I guess I just think there is healthier escapism |
| 02:41 | < afny> | because that specific kind of escapism, again |
| 02:41 | < afny> | generates these authoritarian, classist, ethnocentrist metaphors |
| 02:41 | < afny> | that simply cannot be avoided |
| 02:41 | < KarolineDianne> | Like what, imagining the people my soldiers are killing are all people with lives? That's what I'm escaping from. |
| 02:42 | < afny> | that's COPING |
| 02:42 | < afny> | it's an attempt at understanding |
| 02:42 | < afny> | at processing |
| 02:42 | < afny> | a game of mfz illustrates the horros of war, but it shows you that maybe some causes are worth fighting for |
| 02:42 | < KarolineDianne> | I don't get it. |
| 02:42 | < afny> | worth dying for |
| 02:42 | < afny> | and more importantly |
| 02:42 | < afny> | it shows you how your enemies causes might just be as important to them |
| 02:42 | < afny> | as worth dying for to them |
| 02:42 | < KarolineDianne> | I don't like that. |
| 02:42 | < afny> | because it makes your enemies human |
| 02:43 | < KarolineDianne> | Because that means it's possible for me to be the badguy. |
| 02:43 | < afny> | pft |
| 02:43 | < KarolineDianne> | Which is always ALWAYS a ba thing |
| 02:43 | < afny> | EXACTLY. |
| 02:43 | < afny> | You |
| 02:43 | < afny> | CAN BE the bad guy. |
| 02:43 | < KarolineDianne> | No. |
| 02:43 | < afny> | Welcome to life. |
| 02:43 | < KarolineDianne> | No. |
| 02:43 | < afny> | you probably have been, dude |
| 02:43 | < afny> | I know I have |
| 02:43 | < KarolineDianne> | Life can go to hell and cease to exist entirely |
| 02:43 | < KarolineDianne> | Because it's not worth it. |
| 02:43 | < afny> | the only way to not be the bad guy is to recognize when you are |
| 02:43 | < afny> | and try to stop it |
| 02:43 | < afny> | if you just hide your head in the sand and PRETEND you aren't the bad guy |
| 02:43 | < afny> | guess what |
| 02:43 | < afny> | YOU'RE GONNA BE THE BAD GUY MORE OFTEN THAN NOT. |
| 02:44 | < KarolineDianne> | How about no. |
| 02:44 | < afny> | because you aren't contextualizing anyone else's perspective if you do that! |
| 02:44 | < afny> | mfz FORCES you to understand your enemy's context |
| 02:44 | < afny> | think about the basic factions |
| 02:44 | < KarolineDianne> | Yeah, and I don't like that. |
| 02:44 | < afny> | the SU is relatable; you fight for the SU because you trust your government |
| 02:44 | < afny> | you like the security |
| 02:44 | < afny> | you trust your commanding officer; she kept you safe |
| 02:44 | < afny> | the free colonials fight for their own independence, or for a cause they believe in like suffrage or cheaper food or agency |
| 02:45 | < afny> | the ijad fight for their ancestral beliefs, or for the freedom that comes with a lack of long distance governance |
| 02:45 | < afny> | each side can be understood, but each side has something worth fighting for |
| 02:45 | < afny> | worth DYING FOR |
| 02:45 | < KarolineDianne> | Because if I need this food, and they need this food, and they try to steal if from me... Well... They have to kill me to eat. I have to kill them to eat. We both have understandable goals. No matter what, our survival depends on the others' death. |
| 02:45 | < KarolineDianne> | That's bullshit |
| 02:45 | < afny> | that's LIFE |
| 02:45 | < KarolineDianne> | ANd I hate it. |
| 02:45 | < KarolineDianne> | Life doesn't deserve to exist, then. |
| 02:45 | < afny> | if you don't recognize it, you'll just contribute to the cycle that you hate :\ |
| 02:46 | < afny> | if you can recognize it, if you can see the pitfalls and how they come about |
| 02:46 | < KarolineDianne> | No. |
| 02:46 | < afny> | you can try to avoid them, or prevent the conflicts that you've measured out in fiction |
| 02:46 | < afny> | why not? why no? |
| 02:46 | < afny> | you don't think fiction can be a tool to ease or avoid suffering? |
| 02:46 | < afny> | that's extremely selfish. you're just trying to lessen your OWN suffering |
| 02:47 | < KarolineDianne> | How the hell is mimicking the horrors of life in fiction easing the horrors in reality? |
| 02:47 | < KarolineDianne> | That's just making EVERYTHING horrible |
| 02:47 | < KarolineDianne> | Even the fiction |
| 02:47 | < afny> | well, that's my point exactly, but I'd argue that your mindless bug army vs moral super soldiers |
| 02:47 | < afny> | is much more closely mimicking the HORROR |
| 02:47 | < afny> | and mfz is much more closely representing the uncomfortable truth |
| 02:47 | < afny> | the reality, if you will |
| 02:48 | < afny> | one educates, and the other reinforces the 'horror', as you put it |
| 02:48 | < KarolineDianne> | .-. |
| 02:48 | < afny> | if one side is right, the other is wrong |
| 02:48 | < afny> | that means every single soldier who fought on the side of the axis |
| 02:48 | < afny> | was evil |
| 02:48 | < afny> | reprehensible |
| 02:48 | < afny> | subhuman |
| 02:48 | < afny> | do you really believe that is true? |
| 02:48 | < KarolineDianne> | How about we don't draw parallels from the escapist fantasy into reality, hmm? |
| 02:49 | < Draxinusom> | A person who THINKS they're right or is somehow good, is way worse than two side who realize they have to do something they believe. |
| 02:49 | < KarolineDianne> | Of course I don't. |
| 02:49 | < afny> | then why reinforce that kind of thinking in fiction |
| 02:49 | < afny> | those parallels are drawn whether you want them to be drawn or not |
| 02:49 | < afny> | they just VOMIT THEMSELVES RIGHT OUT of your morally black and white emergent fiction |
| 02:50 | < afny> | and yeah, what Drax said :| |
| 02:50 | < afny> | someone who won't pause to consider, "hey |
| 02:50 | < afny> | am I in the wrong here?" |
| 02:50 | < Draxinusom> | Like, the crusades, those dudes needed HELP |
| 02:50 | < afny> | will do so, SO much more damage than someone who is CONVINCED they are right |
| 02:50 | < Draxinusom> | Or pretty much ANY religious extremists |
| 02:50 | < afny> | lol, I flamed a guy on the mf0 forums for glorifying crusaders |
| 02:50 | < afny> | :\ |
| 02:51 | < KarolineDianne> | Because the ONLY time ANYONE should EVER kill someone else is if they have NO CHOICE. War is a sick, twisted, horrific thing. People are murderd in mass because they fight for what they believe in. Usually, both sides have reasonable goals and motivations to fight. There is no good or bad side most of the time. I HATE THAT. |
| 02:51 | < KarolineDianne> | War shouldn't fucking exist |
| 02:51 | < afny> | that's, again, not realistic, reductivist, and damaging if you ever had to put that logic into practice |
| 02:51 | < afny> | the truth is you ALWAYS have a choice |
| 02:51 | < afny> | anyone who kills ALWAYS, ALWAYS has a choice. |
| 02:52 | < afny> | sorry if you hate it, but life isn't simple, or true, or right or ethical |
| 02:52 | < afny> | and to expect it to be and forsake it when it isn't is just irresponsible |
| 02:52 | < KarolineDianne> | And if your choice is 'kill them or die' because they -WILL NOT- negotiate with you, they -WILL NOT- reason, relate, or barter, and will seek your death to the end of time no matter what...? |
| 02:52 | <@randolph> | Well, you always have a choice if you a) actually have free will, and b) are currently in possession of your faculties |
| 02:52 | <@randolph> | But sure~ |
| 02:52 | < afny> | that's a snapshot with no context |
| 02:53 | < afny> | why won't they negotiate |
| 02:53 | < afny> | why are they fighting YOU to do the death |
| 02:53 | < afny> | you both have motivations |
| 02:53 | <@randolph> | Because I started a philosophical debate about war~ |
| 02:53 | < Draxinusom> | Well, if I were up against the friggin crusaders I'd have to deal with that |
| 02:53 | < afny> | are they not willing to negotiate because you think all jews should die |
| 02:53 | < KarolineDianne> | I dunno, maybe it's an intergalactic locust swarm that wants to EAT YOUR ENTIRE PLANET |
| 02:53 | <@randolph> | Now it's a fight to the death |
| 02:53 | < KarolineDianne> | And they won't negotiate because they're LOCUSTS |
| 02:53 | < afny> | or are they not willing to negotiate because your country requires aide in a crises and they are busy fighting a war two states over |
| 02:54 | < afny> | it's a matter of scale, the the second kind of situation arises much, MUCH more often |
| 02:54 | < afny> | also, crisis |
| 02:54 | < afny> | * |
| 02:54 | < afny> | you're just retreating to this black and white escapist fiction again without awknowledging the metaphor that results from it |
| 02:55 | < afny> | also, there's something to be said for Gears because, ostensibly, it was the Locust's planet first |
| 02:55 | < afny> | they can be construed as a relatable villain |
| 02:56 | < afny> | and again, in war, even if you're lincoln vs hitler on meth |
| 02:56 | < afny> | you've still just got a bunch of people fighting for you |
| 02:56 | < afny> | people that don't wholly, if at all, subscribe to your ideals |
| 02:56 | < afny> | so basically we're not even talking about popcorn vs dinner anymore |
| 02:57 | < afny> | we're talking about an abusive vicodin habit vs a balanced diet. |
| 02:57 | < Draxinusom> | HAHAHA |
| 02:58 | < KarolineDianne> | :I |
| 02:58 | < KarolineDianne> | "How about this. |
| 02:58 | < KarolineDianne> | I'd sooner put a bullet in my own head than kill somone I don't know just because they're 'on the other side' |
| 02:59 | < KarolineDianne> | I'd rather not exist than have to murder someone who has a family, dreams, fears, ambitions, and who's likely only shooting at me because he has to. |
| 02:59 | < Draxinusom> | Small scale it then, if someone was breaking into your house to steal food |
| 03:00 | < KarolineDianne> | I'd prefer to talk to them and reason with them over shooting them. |
| 03:00 | < Draxinusom> | Sure |
| 03:00 | < afny> | again |
| 03:00 | < afny> | that's the choice |
| 03:00 | < Draxinusom> | So that's the point of a more "realistic" wargame. It helps us decide what to do |
| 03:01 | < Draxinusom> | because it happens |
| 03:01 | < afny> | in that situation, you've got a choice between kill them and die |
| 03:01 | < afny> | against mindless bugs, you don't have to make that choice |
| 03:01 | < afny> | you kill not because they are like you, but opposite, or simply "on the other side" |
| 03:01 | < Draxinusom> | It's a grand scale version of the same thing, and if we look at all the sides reasons for fighting, maybe we dont really have to. But we have to consider it |
| 03:01 | < afny> | but because they are DIFFERENT |
| 03:02 | < afny> | rather than because they are the same in all but one very specific (and problematic) way |
| 03:02 | < Draxinusom> | If we start thinking about the other side as a mindless fighter it takes those choices away, and thats the danger Maybe YOU personally wont decide to kill the "badguy" but it's a bad idea to start cultivating that mindset |
| 03:02 | < afny> | ^ |
| 03:03 | < Draxinusom> | So lets fight it out like it's real, and learn why we shouldnt, instead of fight it out fake, and forget why we shouldnt |
| 03:04 | < afny> | and if we find we don't WANT to fight but need to fight anyway |
| 03:04 | < afny> | we know what we're fighting for is worth it |
| 03:04 | < Draxinusom> | Right |
| 03:05 | < KarolineDianne> | In D&D type games, I prefer to play paladin types. My main character has a set of vows that goes pretty much like this: Help and aid anyone in need, even your injured foes. Your sword is an absolute last resort, and even then, do not kill unless it cannot be avoided. Only when a being is indisputably and wholly wicked in its actions will you seek its death. |
| 03:06 | < afny> | the problems in that context don't NECESSARILY arise from your roleplay |
| 03:06 | < afny> | but the existence of the truly wicked in the setting |
| 03:06 | < afny> | like cyricists with no context |
| 03:06 | < Draxinusom> | In reality there is NO one or thing that is wicked. |
| 03:06 | < neoaez> | Wow. I leave for a bit... |
| 03:06 | < afny> | it's the same as mindless bugs, but goofier. |
| 03:06 | < Draxinusom> | HAH |
| 03:07 | < Draxinusom> | Truth |
| 03:07 | < neoaez> | I'm back. The conversation can die again. |
| 03:07 | < afny> | lol |
| 03:07 | < Draxinusom> | No i want back in on the Unit Card discussion |
| 03:07 | < afny> | to be honest I feel like I might throw up |
| 03:07 | < Draxinusom> | Because your cards are GREAT |
| 03:07 | < afny> | and I really need to sleep |
| 03:07 | < afny> | so you should totally talk about cards |
| 03:08 | < KarolineDianne> | 'Truly Wicked' in this context surmounts to 'won't stop murdering/raping/etc no matter what you do, refuses to reason or relate, resists all attempts to stop it and continues to spread harm and suffering whenever it is able' |
| 03:08 | < afny> | and that shit doesn't exist in real life |
| 03:08 | < afny> | unless you're talking about mental illness |
| 03:08 | < afny> | and a true 'paladin' wouldn't just go about murdering the mentally ill. |
| 03:09 | < KarolineDianne> | I'm pretty sure a sociopathic serial killer who tortures and rapes people would count. |
| 03:09 | < afny> | as a severely mentally ill person, yes. |
| 03:09 | < KarolineDianne> | Because that's not something you can fix. |
| 03:09 | < afny> | how do you know? |
| 03:09 | < KarolineDianne> | :| |
| 03:09 | < afny> | just because we don't have a cure for it yet does't mean we won't find one |
| 03:09 | < afny> | surely in a world with magic and mind control and immortal gods there is a "fix" for those people--a way to help them |
| 03:10 | < afny> | in our world a brain tumor can cause an otherwise ethical man to murder people with a gun from a clocktower |
| 03:10 | < afny> | is he pure evil? |
| 03:10 | < afny> | nope |
| 03:10 | < afny> | he's just a guy with a brain tumor. |
| 03:10 | < KarolineDianne> | So yeah, sure. Let's keep around violent monsters just in case the off chance that we find a 'cure' that turns them into kind, generous, reasonable people comes along. |
| 03:10 | < afny> | well, okay |
| 03:10 | < afny> | death penality for all the serial killers |
| 03:10 | < afny> | because they're bad |
| 03:10 | < afny> | all the pedophiles, too |
| 03:11 | < afny> | because they're bad |
| 03:11 | < afny> | hm, what about the alcoholics |
| 03:11 | < afny> | they just start fights |
| 03:11 | < KarolineDianne> | :| |
| 03:11 | < afny> | what about the gays? they're corrupting our children |
| 03:11 | < KarolineDianne> | "Wat |
| 03:11 | < KarolineDianne> | WAT |
| 03:11 | < KarolineDianne> | You're just being an ass now. |
| 03:11 | < afny> | no, I'm just saying you can't apply that kind of 'paladin' logic in the real world because it breaks down in context |
| 03:12 | < afny> | (just like it breaks down in the presence of a talented DM) |
| 03:12 | < KarolineDianne> | I'm pretty sure murder and rape are bad in EVERY CONTEXT |
| 03:12 | < afny> | what about the guy who is on death row right now for murder of two guys |
| 03:12 | < afny> | sentenced as guilty by a jury of his peers |
| 03:13 | < KarolineDianne> | :| |
| 03:13 | < afny> | who LATER found out that he murdered these men because they raped and tortured him for a period of years and then REGRETTED their decision to call him guilty |
| 03:13 | < afny> | though that information was held from them at the time |
| 03:13 | < afny> | is that murder bad in every context? |
| 03:13 | < afny> | or is it only bad in the ABSENCE of context? |
| 03:13 | < afny> | is it murder? well, it was a premeditated killing |
| 03:13 | < afny> | revenge, if you will |
| 03:13 | < KarolineDianne> | :I |
| 03:13 | < afny> | it could be called justice. |
| 03:14 | < KarolineDianne> | I want to strangle you right now, I hope you know that. |
| 03:14 | < afny> | ;\ |
| 03:14 | < afny> | I just want to EDUCATE you |
| 03:14 | < KarolineDianne> | You're NOT educating me |
| 03:14 | < KarolineDianne> | You're FRUSTRATING me |
| 03:14 | < afny> | well, I'm sure trying :P |
| 03:14 | < neoaez> | Haha |
| 03:14 | < KarolineDianne> | You're hammering even more reasons for me to utterly disown this worthless reality into my head. |
| 03:15 | < afny> | reality is pretty shitty |
| 03:15 | < afny> | it's pretty fucking awful |
| 03:15 | < afny> | but you can only make it better if you recognize why |
| 03:15 | < afny> | only in recognizing the problems with reality can you construct practical methods of improving it |
| 03:15 | < KarolineDianne> | Yeah, I recognize why |
| 03:15 | < KarolineDianne> | And that's why I believe none of it should even exist. |
| 03:16 | < afny> | I'm sorry you feel that way :C |
| 03:16 | < KarolineDianne> | That's why I hide away in my fantasy worlds where there is nothing like that. |
| 03:16 | < afny> | I haven't found the same solace in fantasy worlds because they're either accurate in their metaphors |
| 03:17 | < afny> | or innacurate to the point of atrocity |
| 03:17 | < afny> | I'd rather try to be constructive |
| 03:17 | < KarolineDianne> | That's why I play games where the badguys are cackling evil monsters and the goodguys are glowing angelic paladins who reluctantly answer the call to defend themselves from the monsters. |
| 03:18 | < afny> | well, again |
| 03:18 | < afny> | I mean, I don't know how many times I can say this |
| 03:18 | < afny> | but that's reductivist and does more damage than good because of the metaphorical implications |
| 03:18 | | * neoaez sneaks out of the room to go crash in bed. |
| 03:18 | | neoaez is now known as neoaeZzzz |
| 03:18 | < afny> | it hammers home the idea that you can be INHERENTLY RIGHT |
| 03:18 | < afny> | in any conflict |
| 03:18 | < KarolineDianne> | I hate the simple fact that i have to exist in this piece of shit world, where people kill each other over worthless crap, innocents get locked away and criminals walk free. |
| 03:18 | < afny> | it's a subconcious reinforcement of the very shittness you're trying to escape |
| 03:19 | < afny> | you're stuck with these limited definitions of stuff like "innocents" and "criminals" if you continue to think like that |
| 03:19 | < afny> | you're letting someone else define those concepts for you |
| 03:19 | < KarolineDianne> | THe only thing I can do to feel any better is hide in a world where I don't feel like my mere existence is causing others to suffer. |
| 03:19 | < afny> | you're letting someone else define the good and the bad |
| 03:19 | < afny> | instead of deciding for yourself |
| 03:19 | < afny> | if you do it in a fantasy world, you're more likely to do it in reality to |
| 03:19 | < afny> | +o |
| 03:19 | < KarolineDianne> | WHAT THE FUCKING HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO DO THEN |
| 03:20 | < KarolineDianne> | Huh? What? |
| 03:20 | < afny> | pull your head out of the sand and start thinking for yourself; start trying to figure out what is really good, what is really bad, and what is in between |
| 03:20 | < KarolineDianne> | There's -NOTHING- I can do to change any of it. |
| 03:20 | < KarolineDianne> | NOTHING |
| 03:20 | < afny> | that's just not true |
| 03:20 | < afny> | you can have a positive influence on the world |
| 03:20 | < KarolineDianne> | No, I cannot. |
| 03:20 | < afny> | why not? |
| 03:20 | < KarolineDianne> | Because nothing will ever matter. |
| 03:20 | < KarolineDianne> | Nothing. |
| 03:21 | < afny> | sorry you feel that way :c |
| 03:21 | < afny> | I think stuff matters |
| 03:21 | < KarolineDianne> | The entirety of our existence is a grain of sand in a vast desert on an endless expanse of land. |
| 03:21 | < afny> | the first positive change you could affect is changing that perception in yourself |
| 03:21 | < afny> | try to tell yourself that your life matters |
| 03:22 | < KarolineDianne> | And what good what that do? |
| 03:22 | < afny> | well if you believe your own life matters, you believe it can affect other stuff |
| 03:22 | < afny> | in a positive way |
| 03:22 | < KarolineDianne> | I'm just a subatomic particle on a molecule on a lump on that grain of sand in that vast, endless desert. |
| 03:22 | < afny> | even if that affect is really, really, really small |
| 03:22 | < KarolineDianne> | Nothign I ever do will change anything. |
| 03:22 | < afny> | it's still measurable |
| 03:23 | < afny> | it's easy to get lost in the vastness but we don't have to use such astronomical units |
| 03:23 | < afny> | try inches |
| 03:23 | < afny> | or if you prefer, centimeters |
| 03:23 | < KarolineDianne> | Why should I? |
| 03:23 | < afny> | cause they're easier to understand than the Astronomical Unit |
| 03:23 | < afny> | and more practical |
| 03:24 | < KarolineDianne> | My mere existence means things are dying. To live, other things have to die to feed me. People lose out on things because I take them, people in other countries starve while I munch on junk in my overstuffed pantry. |
| 03:24 | < afny> | that's very buddhist of you to recognize, but I'm not sure the buddhist approach to coping is actually the best one |
| 03:24 | < afny> | you have to accept that, but you don't have to whip yourself for it |
| 03:25 | < afny> | just make the sacrifice as worth it as you can |
| 03:25 | < KarolineDianne> | The ONLY thing I can do to stop that is just off myself, but then I cause emotional harm to everyone I care about, as well as harm the image of people like me simply by being what I am. |
| 03:25 | < afny> | well yeah, I mean, that isn't making the best use of the sacrifice of others |
| 03:26 | < afny> | you've gotta be at least a little selfish; enough to take some small ammount of pleasure out of your existence to justify it |
| 03:26 | < afny> | but that also means awknowledging the shitty parts |
| 03:26 | < afny> | and knowing that maybe you can't ever put more into the system than you got out of it |
| 03:26 | < afny> | but it's worth trying, right? |
| 03:26 | < KarolineDianne> | Because nothings ever just about YOU. It's about your family, upbringing, community, race, religion, etc. Anything I do will have people look at that crap instead of ME, and everyone else who's part of the same stuff I am will be affected. |
| 03:26 | < afny> | hm, welll |
| 03:26 | < afny> | I don't agree with that at all |
| 03:27 | < afny> | my perception of myself is so totally against the perception of most others |
| 03:27 | < afny> | I mean, their perception of me doesn't line up with me at all |
| 03:27 | < afny> | and yeah that causes some grief, but I just have to do what I'm going to do |
| 03:27 | < afny> | otherwise I'm not even making an attempt |
| 03:27 | < afny> | like, that isn't being selfish |
| 03:27 | < afny> | that's just being yourself |
| 03:27 | < afny> | that's sort of a vague distinction but what I mean is |
| 03:27 | < afny> | you can only hold yourself accountable |
| 03:27 | < KarolineDianne> | What I mean is that if a man who happens to be muslim shoot someone, they'll mark it as another tick on the 'muslims are terrorists' thing, instead of looking into WHO the man was and WHY he did it. |
| 03:28 | < afny> | well, yeah |
| 03:28 | < afny> | but they shouldn't! |
| 03:28 | < afny> | and if you can regonize that, you can fight against it |
| 03:28 | < KarolineDianne> | So if I kill myself, or do anything drastic, people will associate my race, religion, sexuality, etc to it, and use it to scrutinize others of the same type. |
| 03:28 | < afny> | well, depends what you mean by drastic |
| 03:29 | < afny> | I mean first of all, don't kill yourself :P |
| 03:29 | < afny> | but sometimes drastic is good, or needed |
| 03:29 | < afny> | and eventually if enough people do something "drastic" it isn't just some minority action |
| 03:29 | < afny> | it becomes the new norm |
| 03:29 | < KarolineDianne> | Anyway... |
| 03:29 | < afny> | or at least it becomes "acceptable" |
| 03:30 | < KarolineDianne> | Point is, I don't like that kind of thing. I don't like relatable villains. I just don't. If the badguy is relatable and human, I don't want the goodguys to get him, and thus the story doesn't go on. |
| 03:30 | < KarolineDianne> | It falls apart |
| 03:30 | < KarolineDianne> | And then there's no point in doing anything. |
| 03:30 | < afny> | I guess I just think if you felt better about life or stuff, you wouldn't need to hide from that reality |
| 03:31 | < afny> | the beauty of stories like that is there IS a point in doing something |
| 03:31 | < afny> | even if what you're doing is pretty shitty and you don't want to be doing it |
| 03:31 | < KarolineDianne> | Because I'd never get any action or horror in my games or movies. I'd just have people chilling out, talking and being friends and understanding each other. |
| 03:32 | < afny> | I think some conflict is healthy, which is perhaps why I like my simulated conflict to be a little more realistic |
| 03:32 | < afny> | because I think it can be a tool to help us avoid real conflict |
| 03:32 | < afny> | or at least better understand conflict so we can navigate it more effeciently when it happens for real |
| 03:32 | < afny> | holy shit I might throw up. |
| 03:32 | | * afny no context |
| 03:33 | < KarolineDianne> | I'd much rather punch Dr. Diabolical Destroyer in the face in fantasy than punch some punk in real life. |
| 03:33 | < afny> | well yeah |
| 03:33 | < afny> | but war game with well balanced factions isn't real life, and I don't actually have to punch my friend playing the ijad army |
| 03:33 | < KarolineDianne> | I'm very angry, all the time. I don't have an outlet in real life. I have no way to blow off steam or get rid of stress. |
| 03:33 | < afny> | a war game* |
| 03:33 | < afny> | I find talking about it helps |
| 03:34 | < KarolineDianne> | So I punch evil things in fantasy, where there's no chance that I hurt real people. |
| 03:34 | < afny> | talking about why I'm angry |
| 03:34 | < afny> | I definitely get the letting off steam thing |
| 03:34 | < afny> | I mean not ever game I play has believable sides |
| 03:34 | < afny> | I play lots of monster hunter and that game is basically about just fucking murdering dragons |
| 03:34 | < afny> | there is no emergent storytelling there |
| 03:34 | < afny> | but I also don't feel like I'm using it, at least in the narrative sense, to avoid something else |
| 03:38 | < afny> | well anyway I really need to go to sleep |
| 03:38 | < afny> | or at the very least stop drinking |
| 03:38 | < afny> | but you should find someone to like, talk about stuff with |
| 03:38 | < KarolineDianne> | I just don't feel it's necessary to 'contextualize' -every single battle- in random little wargames, when all you need to do is say 'explosions are cool. Let's fight.' |
| 03:38 | < afny> | if you're angry at life and everything |
| 03:38 | < KarolineDianne> | And then your faceless, nameless soldiers blow stuff up. |
| 03:39 | < afny> | I'm not saying you have to stop playing warhammer, I was just rambling on about my aproach |
| 03:39 | < afny> | to games and shit |
| 03:39 | < KarolineDianne> | And making me feel like utter shit. |
| 03:39 | < afny> | sorry, that was truely unintentional |
| 03:39 | < afny> | it is, perhaps, a side effect of me also feeling like utter shit today |
| 03:39 | < afny> | and also being very drunk |
| 03:39 | < KarolineDianne> | And turning my happy 'lol games' excitement into a resurfacing of my depression |
| 03:39 | < KarolineDianne> | So yeah... |
| 03:40 | < afny> | I honestly was trying to just illustrate some of the tools I use to fight my own depression |
| 03:40 | < afny> | I do lots of contextualizing :\ |
| 03:40 | < afny> | just in my experience, I found avoiding the shit in life that made me mad |
| 03:40 | < afny> | just made me more mad in the long run |
| 03:41 | < afny> | so now I basically run at it headlong with a pillow duct-taped to my head |
| 03:41 | < afny> | and hope it isn't too sharp |
| 03:41 | < afny> | maybe not the best strategy but so far I don't have any holes in my head |
| 03:41 | < afny> | (please don't make any holes in your head) |
| 03:41 | < afny> | (unless you get your ears pierced or something) |
| 03:41 | < KarolineDianne> | I probably won't |
| 03:42 | < KarolineDianne> | If I were to kill myself, I'd do it with something that doesn't leave a gory mess everywhere. |
| 03:42 | < afny> | like dying of old age in a hospital bed |
| 03:42 | < afny> | that's pretty clean. |
| 03:42 | < KarolineDianne> | No |
| 03:42 | < KarolineDianne> | They wear diapers. |
| 03:42 | < KarolineDianne> | Not very clean. |
| 03:42 | < afny> | well everyone shits themselves |
| 03:43 | | * KarolineDianne honestly hopes she never lives long enough to grow old. |
| 03:43 | < afny> | what could be cleaner than a diaper. |
| 04:13 | <~McMartin> | Hey, LEGO. |
| 04:14 | | * McMartin gets some joints working the way he wants for the first time! |
| 04:20 | < KarolineDianne> | heya |
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| 12:41 | | Draxinusom_ is now known as Draxy_Work |
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| 13:26 | < huhwhozat> | hey guys |
| 13:26 | < huhwhozat> | so did afny and Karo end up killing each other last night? |
| 13:38 | < Draxy_Work> | Almost |
| 13:47 | < Draxy_Work> | But no, mostly it got sad |
| 13:49 | < huhwhozat> | :/ |
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| 18:37 | < Draxy_Work> | Hey neoaez, you around? |
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| 19:18 | < huhwhozat> | yoyoyo |
| 19:19 | | locas is now known as afny |
| 19:19 | < afny> | o/ |
| 19:31 | < huhwhozat> | afny: you have the sexy subs |
| 19:32 | < afny> | I consider myself a moderate |
| 19:32 | < afny> | OH, you mean the |
| 19:32 | < afny> | Barnacle alt forms |
| 19:33 | < huhwhozat> | ahahaha |
| 19:33 | < huhwhozat> | yes |
| 19:33 | < huhwhozat> | yes I do |
| 19:33 | < afny> | yes, they're floaty |
| 19:33 | < afny> | or, alternatively sinky |
| 19:33 | < huhwhozat> | snicker |
| 19:33 | < afny> | the one thing I still need to do with them is figured out a standard gun |
| 19:33 | < huhwhozat> | for reals, I *must* get some photos of my copany this weekend |
| 19:34 | < huhwhozat> | I want compliments darnit |
| 19:34 | < afny> | do eet |
| 19:34 | < huhwhozat> | :P |
| 19:34 | < huhwhozat> | ima try to use my gf's ipad to take em |
| 19:34 | < huhwhozat> | it has a much better cam than anything else I can get my hands on |
| 19:34 | < afny> | yeah those cameras are apparently decent |
| 19:35 | < huhwhozat> | the 3rd gen at least, I can't speak for the previous |
| 19:35 | < huhwhozat> | I was very surprised |
| 19:36 | < huhwhozat> | (she had to get one for school - usually we stay far away from apple products) |
| 19:36 | < Draxy_Work> | Yeah, the 3rd gen is decent |
| 19:36 | < Draxy_Work> | I like my Android products |
| 19:36 | < Draxy_Work> | The cam on my Evo4gLTE is nice |
| 19:36 | < huhwhozat> | sweet |
| 19:37 | < Draxy_Work> | So far I've only been using others frame designs though, so no photos |
| 19:37 | < Draxy_Work> | I'm going to try my hand at a frame this weekend I think though |
| 19:38 | < huhwhozat> | I randomly put together a sweet frame about a week ago one night when I couldn't sleep |
| 19:38 | < Draxy_Work> | Some of the art in the inspiration thread got me hankering |
| 19:38 | < huhwhozat> | in about 2 hours I had a freakins awesome scarab |
| 19:38 | < Draxy_Work> | Nice |
| 19:39 | < huhwhozat> | it has wings! that fold out! |
| 19:39 | < huhwhozat> | the base is Soren's scrambler, but everything above the legs is custom |
| 19:39 | < Draxy_Work> | Uhh, awesome. Show us that stuff asap |
| 19:39 | < Draxy_Work> | :) |
| 19:39 | < huhwhozat> | fo reels |
| 19:44 | < huhwhozat> | I really want to build a company of the scarabs, and get gold and silver metallic bits for the highlight |
| 19:45 | < huhwhozat> | (against black) |
| 19:46 | < Draxy_Work> | That's cool |
| 19:46 | < Draxy_Work> | I approve |
| 19:46 | < Draxy_Work> | lol |
| 19:57 | < huhwhozat> | :D |
| 19:58 | < huhwhozat> | gold stuff is 'spensive tho :( |
| 20:05 | < afny> | A YATES WOULD have a blacklight |
| 20:05 | < huhwhozat> | haha |
| 20:05 | < huhwhozat> | inorite? |
| 20:05 | < huhwhozat> | that's a real fun little guy |
| 20:09 | < afny> | yeah, I love his tiny builds |
| 20:09 | < afny> | actually I just really like his builds |
| 20:09 | < afny> | all around |
| 20:09 | < afny> | he's got a very recognizable style |
| 20:13 | < huhwhozat> | I enjoy it a lot too |
| 20:13 | < huhwhozat> | lots of hulking, boxy shapes |
| 20:13 | < huhwhozat> | he seems to have ALL the LEgo though |
| 20:13 | < huhwhozat> | I am envious |
| 20:20 | < Draxy_Work> | Yeah, I often wish I had ALL the lego |
| 20:20 | < Draxy_Work> | Perpetually really |
| 20:23 | < huhwhozat> | does anyone know his background? For instance, why he has such a collection? |
| 20:24 | < afny> | honestly I haven't seen anything in his collection that makes me think it's huge |
| 20:24 | < afny> | lots of the "big names" on flikr have whole rooms dedicated to lego |
| 20:27 | < huhwhozat> | I wouldn't know, I haven't really been into the scene at all |
| 20:28 | < afny> | well what I mean is |
| 20:28 | < afny> | I don't think we can guess if he's an aerospace engineer or a gardener |
| 20:28 | < huhwhozat> | haha |
| 20:28 | < afny> | just from the size of his lego collection :P |
| 20:29 | < huhwhozat> | well |
| 20:29 | < huhwhozat> | I meant is he well known in the Lego circles that appear to be ubiquitous on flickr? |
| 20:30 | < afny> | umm, I dunno |
| 20:30 | < afny> | I think people know his name from his style, surely |
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| 23:34 | < neoaez> | Weee. |
| 23:34 | < neoaez> | Free from work, but soon to be enslaved by highschool football =( |
| 23:39 | < afny> | sounds |
| 23:39 | < afny> | fucking awful |
| 23:44 | < neoaez> | It is. |
| 23:44 | < neoaez> | Cya. |
| --- Log closed Sat Sep 22 00:00:23 2012 |