| --- Log opened Mon Sep 17 00:00:08 2012 |
| 00:00 | <+FerrelFerret_phone> | Yeah, I'm loving this kit. |
| 00:00 | <+FerrelFerret_phone> | And, I'm just hoping they do the series justice in the movie. |
| 00:07 | < afny> | wait what |
| 00:07 | < afny> | there's an mgs movie |
| 00:10 | < afny> | switching os |
| 00:10 | | afny [kevinvankir@Nightstar-42c41d95.res.rr.com] has quit [Client exited] |
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| 00:29 | | locas is now known as afny |
| 00:32 | <+FerrelFerret_phone> | Yo, yes there is a MGS movie in the works. |
| 00:33 | <+FerrelFerret_phone> | Kojima is the one who put onto production. Working with Marvel to get it made. |
| 00:34 | <+FerrelFerret_phone> | <into> |
| 00:35 | <+FerrelFerret_phone> | He wants to kill the stereotype that video game movies are awful. |
| 00:47 | <~McMartin> | Kojima is not the man I would put to this task |
| 00:58 | <+FerrelFerret_phone> | I don't think he's directing the film. I think he'll just be a producer. |
| 00:59 | <~McMartin> | Well, I guess that's where he's clearly wanted to be for some time |
| 00:59 | <~McMartin> | (Kojima is on my irrational-permanent-hatred list for various reasons, none of which are even MGS2) |
| 01:01 | < afny> | what |
| 01:01 | < afny> | why |
| 01:01 | < afny> | also is david whatshisface playing snake |
| 01:01 | < afny> | I know he wanted to |
| 01:01 | < afny> | but I kind of feel like he's a horrible actor |
| 01:01 | <~McMartin> | afny: Which "what" or "why" there, I made several assertions |
| 01:02 | <~McMartin> | I think the hatred went to permanent in some interview he gave Nintendo Power where he was openly wishing for a way to give the player electric shocks for failure. |
| 01:02 | <+FerrelFerret_phone> | Wow. |
| 01:02 | < afny> | what (things made you hate kojima) |
| 01:02 | < afny> | and why |
| 01:02 | <~McMartin> | This reinforced my general sense that as a game designer he actually hates and resents players. |
| 01:02 | < afny> | yeah but that's AWESOME |
| 01:02 | < afny> | I'd play that game |
| 01:02 | < afny> | no, he doesn't resent players |
| 01:03 | < afny> | he just takes games seriously |
| 01:03 | < afny> | he doesn't want to be restricted by his medium |
| 01:03 | <~McMartin> | No, he thinks that players should thank him for the right to be abused by him. |
| 01:03 | < afny> | I guess |
| 01:03 | < afny> | I DO thank him for that, though :| |
| 01:03 | < afny> | I mean, psycho mantis? |
| 01:03 | <~McMartin> | Yeah, I belong to what we may casually call the Super Meat Boy school of game design |
| 01:04 | < afny> | I haven't played it so I don't know how to interpret that term |
| 01:04 | < afny> | kojima's games aren't EXTREMELY punishing in their difficulty |
| 01:04 | <~McMartin> | There are two ways to make a game "difficult" - one by being really hard, and one by being an incredible dick |
| 01:04 | < afny> | but they're punishing in a way that is thematically appropriate |
| 01:04 | < afny> | have you played mgs? |
| 01:04 | <~McMartin> | Yes |
| 01:04 | <~McMartin> | MGS1 was the last game of his I played |
| 01:04 | < afny> | I don't think it's unfairly hard |
| 01:04 | <~McMartin> | No, it's just goddamn tedious and full of itself |
| 01:05 | < afny> | hm |
| 01:05 | <~McMartin> | Also, they spelled "Livermore" wrong~ |
| 01:05 | < afny> | waht's tedious about the gameplay? |
| 01:05 | < afny> | what* |
| 01:05 | < afny> | it IS full of itself, that's for sure |
| 01:05 | <+FerrelFerret_phone> | Miyamoto is the same way. He doesn't like fans |
| 01:05 | < afny> | but that's part of its charm for me |
| 01:05 | < afny> | I don't get the impression that kojima doesn't like his fans, I just think he wants to engage with people in a different way |
| 01:06 | < afny> | he doesn't care what people think of him |
| 01:06 | <~McMartin> | Yes, like, electric shocks~ |
| 01:06 | <+FerrelFerret_phone> | I'll be back later, guys. Dinner time |
| 01:07 | < afny> | I'd subject myself to that |
| 01:07 | <~McMartin> | My understanding of the ending of MGS2 is that it is berating you for the sin of enjoying MGS1 and thus making Konami force him to make a sequel. |
| 01:07 | < afny> | in the right context |
| 01:07 | < afny> | brb need to chop carrots |
| 01:10 | < afny> | I dunno, it's |
| 01:10 | < afny> | sort of tongue and cheek |
| 01:10 | <~McMartin> | In these modern times, the answer to "why don't you even consider playing any Kojima game" is because his cutscene to actual gameplay ratio has gotten well beyond my tolerance level |
| 01:10 | < afny> | it's also metafiction |
| 01:10 | < afny> | I mean there are all these Paul Auster references |
| 01:10 | <~McMartin> | I'm the sort of person who gets mad at Super Mario Galaxy for taking ten whole seconds to do a respawn. |
| 01:10 | < afny> | I haven't played mgs4 |
| 01:10 | | FerrelFerret_phone [AndChat4505@Nightstar-9348e0e4.tmodns.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Bye] |
| 01:10 | < afny> | but my favorite kojima game is ZoE2 |
| 01:11 | < afny> | which is a lot of cutscene |
| 01:11 | < afny> | the thing is the gameplay is so good, I don't care if it's short |
| 01:11 | < afny> | and the animation is good |
| 01:11 | < afny> | in the cutscenes |
| 01:11 | < afny> | it's like a playable feature length anime |
| 01:11 | < afny> | with very very good gameplay |
| 01:11 | < afny> | what's not to like? |
| 01:11 | <~McMartin> | Gameplay density, clearly. |
| 01:11 | < afny> | the gameplay IS dense |
| 01:11 | < afny> | it's SO dense |
| 01:11 | <~McMartin> | ... no, you just said the game was short and mostly cutscene. |
| 01:12 | < afny> | the gameplay that exists is DENSE, though |
| 01:12 | < afny> | it's high DENSITY |
| 01:12 | <~McMartin> | That's not what I meant |
| 01:12 | < afny> | then use a word that means what you meant :P |
| 01:12 | < afny> | it's not MASSIVE, sure |
| 01:12 | <~McMartin> | I meant "I am going to sit down to play a game. What percentage of my time doing this is spent actually playing the game?" |
| 01:12 | < afny> | it is not high in VOLUME |
| 01:12 | < afny> | it's like rich chocolate vs hershey's syrup |
| 01:12 | <~McMartin> | Except it's not, because more than half your time is spent watching the game play itself, not actually playing. |
| 01:12 | < afny> | well, that's not true for zoe2 |
| 01:13 | < afny> | it's probably 3/5 |
| 01:13 | <~McMartin> | Right |
| 01:13 | <~McMartin> | See, 90% is too low |
| 01:13 | < afny> | I disagree |
| 01:13 | < afny> | I mean, I don't have a set standard |
| 01:13 | <~McMartin> | Really, neither do I, but cases where I've been noticably impatient have gotten to that point. |
| 01:13 | < afny> | I won't rule a game out of it's got a ratio of gameplay 5 to cutscene 3 |
| 01:14 | < afny> | yeah, but you've only played MGS1 :\ |
| 01:14 | < afny> | you're not really speaking from experience here |
| 01:14 | <~McMartin> | No, I also played MG |
| 01:14 | <~McMartin> | And Was Warned about the rest of the MG games. |
| 01:14 | < afny> | okay, you play played UP to MGS1 |
| 01:14 | < afny> | :| |
| 01:14 | < afny> | Kojima games are like |
| 01:14 | < afny> | mixed media |
| 01:14 | <~McMartin> | Yeah, you say "mixed media" I say "he's trying so hard to be a movie director he forgot to put a game in" |
| 01:14 | < afny> | I just think ruling out a game because of something like that is kind of funny |
| 01:15 | < afny> | but he's not |
| 01:15 | < afny> | because the gameplay elements are so salient |
| 01:15 | < afny> | I'm a huge Kojima fan, because LIKE Miyamoto he knows how to empart theme just through gameplay |
| 01:15 | < afny> | that sounds a little ridiculous because some of his games have a lot of cutscenes, so it might SEEM like he's just conveying his themes with cutscenes |
| 01:15 | < afny> | and skimping on the conveyance through gameplay |
| 01:15 | < afny> | but that isn't true at all |
| 01:16 | < afny> | it's like a one two narrative punch |
| 01:16 | <~McMartin> | Yeah, I'm not really playing for the theme |
| 01:16 | <~McMartin> | I tend towards challenge-based games |
| 01:16 | <~McMartin> | He is the opposite of this |
| 01:16 | < afny> | no |
| 01:16 | < afny> | the two aren't mutually exclusive |
| 01:16 | <~McMartin> | And yet |
| 01:16 | < afny> | the theme of a gameplay and it's challenge level are often intimately related |
| 01:16 | < afny> | consider metroid or zelda |
| 01:16 | < afny> | metroid 1; the themes are isolation, personal agency |
| 01:16 | < afny> | that is conveyed through the GAMEPLAY |
| 01:17 | <~McMartin> | We're talking past one another here. |
| 01:17 | < afny> | not really, I just think you're too focused on one aspect of game design |
| 01:17 | < afny> | I'd like to use mgs3 as an example but you haven't played it |
| 01:18 | < afny> | it's very challenge based |
| 01:18 | <~McMartin> | MGS3 I have in fact heard would be the one one that I would like |
| 01:18 | <~McMartin> | Though that one is also full of self-piss-taking |
| 01:18 | <~McMartin> | I'm going to guess that in addition to not having played VVVVVV or Super Meat Boy you have also not played LIMBO |
| 01:18 | <~McMartin> | Because that's the most direct split I'm aware of |
| 01:19 | <~McMartin> | If you're playing with the fourth wall in interaction, you are generally kicking the player *out* of the interactive mode into a meta level. |
| 01:19 | <~McMartin> | That's fatal to the kind of performance tuning I enjoy in challenge games, which is why as a rule he does not attempt this |
| 01:19 | < afny> | well, yeah |
| 01:19 | < afny> | that's the point of metafiction :P |
| 01:19 | <~McMartin> | Yeah |
| 01:19 | < afny> | I mean if you don't like metafiction you won't like kojima |
| 01:19 | <~McMartin> | Metafiction is tolerable in text adventures, but that's it |
| 01:20 | <~McMartin> | The Gostak is awesome. |
| 01:20 | < afny> | again, that's a blanket ruling that I think limits your enjoyment of stuff that would otherwise be enjoyable |
| 01:20 | <~McMartin> | (Also, MGS's attempts at metafiction fell flat, and what I've read of MGS2 implies it falls flat there too.) |
| 01:20 | < afny> | but I'm also a big paul auster fan, so |
| 01:20 | <~McMartin> | (Psycho Mantis was *almost* good.) |
| 01:20 | < afny> | mgs isn't too metafictional |
| 01:20 | <~McMartin> | (However, it gives the game away too quickly) |
| 01:20 | < afny> | there are just hints at it |
| 01:20 | < afny> | it's like seinfeld |
| 01:20 | < afny> | you can't really judge it by today's standards |
| 01:21 | < afny> | but at the time it was very original |
| 01:21 | <~McMartin> | I'm one of those wet blankets who never thought it was *good*~ |
| 01:21 | <~McMartin> | But yes |
| 01:21 | < afny> | you don't have to think it was good to recognize the originality |
| 01:21 | < afny> | of that sequence at least |
| 01:21 | <~McMartin> | Sure, but that's a demoscene hack. |
| 01:22 | <~McMartin> | My problem with that sequence is trivially fixed |
| 01:22 | < afny> | well, I still think you should check out ZOE/ZOE2 |
| 01:22 | < afny> | no metafiction in those |
| 01:22 | <~McMartin> | (To wit, the hint sequences needed to be (a) not all forced by the player and (b) needed more intermediary steps before they tell you the answer) |
| 01:22 | <~McMartin> | My game stack is already 80 tall |
| 01:23 | < afny> | worth playing before you die :P |
| 01:23 | < afny> | they're very very high on my list |
| 01:23 | < afny> | regarding games though |
| 01:23 | < afny> | I just bought FTL |
| 01:23 | < afny> | pretty excited to play it |
| 01:23 | < afny> | gonna eat dinner first |
| 01:23 | <~McMartin> | Be warned that most runs of FTL are intrinsically unwinnable |
| 01:23 | <~McMartin> | It needs to be approached like Dwarf Fortress |
| 01:24 | < afny> | yeah, I know |
| 01:25 | < afny> | the word's roguelike-like prepared me :P |
| 01:25 | < afny> | -' |
| 01:25 | <~McMartin> | Ah, OK |
| 01:25 | <~McMartin> | See, the more highly-tuned roguelikes set things up so that in theory sufficiently skilled play means that every game is theoretically winnable |
| 01:25 | <~McMartin> | My understanding is that FTL doesn't even come close to that yet |
| 01:25 | < afny> | yeah, thus the second like I think |
| 01:25 | < afny> | it's pretty randomized |
| 01:25 | <~McMartin> | Heh |
| 01:25 | <~McMartin> | Yeah |
| 01:26 | <~McMartin> | What it really is is Space Alert >_> |
| 01:26 | < afny> | never played it |
| 01:26 | <~McMartin> | Board game with CDs and flashing lights |
| 01:26 | <~McMartin> | It's, uh, FTL the board game >_> |
| 01:26 | < afny> | lol |
| 01:26 | <~McMartin> | Most of the games I play tend towards "do things that are hard to execute" with a side of "you are expected to fail many hundreds of times" |
| 01:26 | <~McMartin> | This is one reason why "fast reset" is one of my most crucial game metrics. |
| 01:27 | <~McMartin> | And most of the rest tend towards exploration-focus |
| 01:27 | <~McMartin> | There are, as a result, a lot of designers that I don't particularly care about |
| 01:28 | <~McMartin> | Kojima's interviews to the press and the vibe I've gotten from the games themselves has consistently raised my hackles more than the others, though |
| 01:28 | <~McMartin> | This also means that I wind up missing fairly major things like, oh, Planescape Torment, until 2011. |
| 01:28 | < afny> | well |
| 01:29 | < afny> | on kojima I'd say most of his game design has very heavy helpings of that style |
| 01:29 | < afny> | and I have to say it seems like you've got a personal vendetta against him for reasons outside his actual games |
| 01:30 | <~McMartin> | Yes, that was literally the first thing I said. |
| 01:30 | < afny> | yeah, I didn't get that it was just a media impression thing until just now :P |
| 01:30 | < afny> | I mean if someone said |
| 01:30 | < afny> | name a game designer in the last fifteen years that makes games that require you to perfect your execution and teach based on failure |
| 01:31 | < afny> | kojima would be on the tip of my tongue |
| 01:31 | < afny> | maybe his resets aren't SUPER fast |
| 01:31 | < afny> | but SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaake |
| 01:33 | <~McMartin> | Yeah, I'm not finding good gameplay videos here |
| 01:33 | < afny> | of what? |
| 01:33 | <~McMartin> | And it's really hard to show in a video the difference between a difficult game that's playing fair and a not-all-that-difficult game that is difficult through pulling tricks on the player |
| 01:34 | <~McMartin> | Any of the games I've been mentioning |
| 01:34 | <~McMartin> | I'm mostly finding walkthroughs, and one successful play is much like another |
| 01:34 | < afny> | kojima games or VVVVV and SMB? |
| 01:34 | <~McMartin> | The latter |
| 01:34 | < afny> | I've seen vvvvvvvvvvvvvvv and smb |
| 01:35 | <~McMartin> | Oh, I got a wire crossed, I thought you hadn't seen it |
| 01:35 | <~McMartin> | LIMBO tends towards pulling tricks on the player, but isn't really difficult |
| 01:35 | <~McMartin> | And then you've got shit like IWBTG which just kind of fails on every level but is also hard to execute once you know what to do |
| 01:36 | < afny> | I think kojima's mechanics almost always tend toward difficult |
| 01:36 | < afny> | but they encourage mastery |
| 01:36 | < afny> | what's IWBTG? |
| 01:36 | <~McMartin> | I Wanna Be The Guy. |
| 01:36 | < afny> | oh |
| 01:36 | < afny> | THAT. |
| 01:36 | <~McMartin> | A masocore challenge platformer often mistaken for something good. |
| 01:36 | < afny> | yea |
| 01:36 | <~McMartin> | Note that "masocore" and "challenge platformer" are *two different things* |
| 01:36 | <~McMartin> | LIMBO is masocore but not a challenge platformer |
| 01:37 | <~McMartin> | VVVVVV and SMB are challenge platformers that aren't masocore |
| 01:37 | <~McMartin> | Kojima's metafictional stuff tends to scrape the same raw nerve that is why I dislike masocore games |
| 01:38 | <~McMartin> | (Though you also, to be fair, are not the first person to recommend ZoE and its sequel to me) |
| 01:38 | <~McMartin> | (Particularly since I am also fairly pro-Gradius) |
| 01:38 | < afny> | there's no metafiction stuff in it |
| 01:39 | < afny> | and there is a surplus of vic viper |
| 01:39 | <~McMartin> | YEah |
| 01:39 | <~McMartin> | Though there is still the "impatience" part~ |
| 01:39 | < afny> | yeah, I mean |
| 01:39 | < afny> | you have to be in like |
| 01:39 | < afny> | "watch anime mode" |
| 01:39 | < afny> | AND "play videogame mode" |
| 01:39 | < afny> | simultaneously |
| 01:39 | < afny> | it's a little weird |
| 01:39 | <~McMartin> | Yeah |
| 01:39 | <~McMartin> | A lot of my game tastes hinge on the fact that this is hard for me to reach |
| 01:39 | <~McMartin> | And when I am in that mode, or similar ones, I start catching up on things like PS:T |
| 01:40 | <~McMartin> | (Or, right now, Fallout 3) |
| 01:43 | <~McMartin> | (And then afny started up FTL and wasn't seen again for about 12 hours) |
| 01:44 | < afny> | nah trying to fix my audio |
| 01:44 | < afny> | and my sister is screaming at me because I asked to borrow her headphones |
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| 20:21 | < Draxinusom> | Quite in here |
| 20:21 | < Draxinusom> | Quiet |
| 20:23 | <~McMartin> | All has achieved Singularity |
| 20:26 | < Draxinusom> | That happens |
| 20:30 | < huhwhozat> | yeah it is |
| 21:31 | < Draxinusom> | I'll be back, probably |
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| 23:47 | < Draxinusom> | Hrm, still dead |
| 23:47 | < afny> | neber. |
| --- Log closed Tue Sep 18 00:00:24 2012 |