| --- Log opened Tue Sep 07 00:00:19 2021 |
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| 06:14 | < [RMS]> | https://i.imgur.com/xcxq7c0.jpg |
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| 06:30 | <~Vorntastic> | Trying to remember, there's a particular string that's valid Ruby that's just a bunch of exclamation points and question marks |
| 06:52 | <~Vorntastic> | !!???!!??:!?? |
| 06:53 | < abudhabi_> | Before I parsed your nickname, I thought this was a random spammer attack. |
| 07:04 | <&McMartin> | ? is ord() |
| 07:04 | <&McMartin> | So you mix it with ternary |
| 07:57 | <~Vorntastic> | (not not character-value-of '?' chooses between not not character value of '?' and not character value of '?') |
| 08:24 | < catalyst> | []{}(); |
| 08:24 | < catalyst> | valid C++ |
| 08:25 | < catalyst> | []{[]{}();}(); |
| 08:25 | < catalyst> | also valid c++ |
| 08:25 | < catalyst> | etc |
| 08:27 | <~Vorntastic> | What does that do |
| 08:31 | < catalyst> | literally nothing |
| 08:31 | < catalyst> | it's an empty lambda called immediately |
| 08:33 | < catalyst> | (then nested) |
| 09:03 | <~Vorntastic> | Aha |
| 09:18 | < abudhabi_> | It wastes time! Sometimes a crucial thing in low-level programming! |
| 09:45 | <~Vorntastic> | If it does nothing then it probably gets dropped out entirely |
| 09:47 | < catalyst> | yeah, this is C++, it'll just be compiled out |
| 09:47 | < catalyst> | though I guess it'll slow the compiler down a bit |
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| 18:55 | | * abudhabi_ is considering doing something dumb and probably doomed, namely forking freecol to implement a) square tiles, b) a UI superior to Aurora4x. |
| 18:56 | < abudhabi_> | I haven't touched Java since 2017. |
| 19:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | freecol? |
| 19:25 | < abudhabi_> | Opensource clone of Sid Meier's Colonization. |
| 19:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah |
| 19:26 | < abudhabi_> | Instead of doing something sane, like openxcom did with its approach to UI, they decided to *mostly* replicate the mechanics, but implement it on an isometric map and a Java Swing window UI. |
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| 19:54 | <@gnolam> | Ah, the golden era of terrible open source Java reimplementations of classic games. |
| 20:05 | < abudhabi_> | LPer: "This game has been in beta releases for like 20 years." |
| 20:16 | <&McMartin> | 2017 wasn't that long ago |
| 20:16 | | * McMartin also declines to state the number of times the UQM team was asked to throw out the entire codebase and reimplement everything from scratch in Java |
| 20:17 | < abudhabi_> | Ouch. |
| 20:17 | < abudhabi_> | Well, I'm pleased you resisted. |
| 20:17 | < abudhabi_> | UQM has a decent interface. |
| 20:17 | <&McMartin> | The UQM project was a very weird beast |
| 20:17 | <~Vornicus> | why the fuck java anyway |
| 20:17 | <&McMartin> | because it's what they studied in school |
| 20:18 | <&McMartin> | or because programmers spend all their time at maximum three inches from cultist-hood |
| 20:18 | <&McMartin> | But yeah, UQM was not a reimplementation in the first place; we inherited a bunch of licensed code |
| 20:19 | <~Vornicus> | I remember someone coming into the OpenTTD channel on freenode and recommending switching from C to C++ and people were very skeptical and then he showed his work and then openTTD switched from C to C++ and I was like "damn, that guy did it right" |
| 20:19 | <&McMartin> | The VICE project is written in C but it includes components that were written in C++ |
| 20:19 | <&McMartin> | So the project as a whole is hybrid |
| 20:22 | <&McMartin> | Also despite being responsible for a large part of it that wasn't inherited from 1993 I would not call its interface very good |
| 20:23 | <~Vornicus> | yeah I don't really like Vice's interface terribly much |
| 20:23 | <&McMartin> | It's got a very bad case of Consolitis |
| 20:23 | <&McMartin> | I meant UQM there, sorry |
| 20:23 | <~Vornicus> | oh |
| 20:23 | <&McMartin> | The one where the UI was praised |
| 20:23 | <&McMartin> | I am not responsible for VICE's UI |
| 20:23 | <&McMartin> | There's... |
| 20:24 | <~Vornicus> | I don't like UQM's interface terribly much either, and now i know which direction Consolitis means' |
| 20:24 | <&McMartin> | a bad decision was mad and it is difficult to back off from |
| 20:24 | <&McMartin> | The console in question is the 3DO~ |
| 20:24 | <&McMartin> | (VICE's bad decision was trusting GNOME) |
| 20:24 | <~Vornicus> | as opposed to vt100, yes |
| 20:25 | <&McMartin> | My Atari ST adventures meant I got to play with VT52! |
| 20:25 | <&McMartin> | For that is what it uses instead of ANSI.SYS |
| 20:31 | < abudhabi_> | To be clear, my standard for 'bad interface' is things like Dwarf Fortress and Aurora4x. |
| 20:31 | < abudhabi_> | UQM is nowhere near those. |
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| 22:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | > why the fuck java anyway |
| 22:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | In addition to being a popular language in schools for some reason, it does actually (usually) deliver on "write once, run anywhere" and 15-20 years ago there were a lot fewer languages you could make that claim about |
| 22:51 | <&McMartin> | > for some reason |
| 22:51 | <&McMartin> | I can speak to this |
| 22:51 | <&McMartin> | Because in the mid-aughts I TAed the same class twice, once in Java and once in C++ |
| 22:51 | <&McMartin> | My office hours in the Java quarter were exclusively fielding questions about the course material |
| 22:51 | <&McMartin> | My office hours in the C++ quarter were over 75% fielding questions about memory corruption |
| 23:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | The "for some reason" is "why Java and not, like, Python or Turing or TCL or Scheme"; "why Java and not C/++" is self-evident |
| 23:03 | <&McMartin> | Java in a very real sense replaced Pascal in this space. |
| 23:04 | <&McMartin> | In the mid-aughts it also was a language with some industrial applications that was also easy to teach in, which puts it above Scheme |
| 23:04 | <&McMartin> | And it also has a number of usefully low-level concepts available which means that you can, for instance, teach an introductory OS class in Java where this would be much harder in Python |
| 23:05 | <&McMartin> | As Java has the full suite of traditional multithreading data structures, and those tend to get covered in OS classes. |
| 23:05 | <&McMartin> | "Shouldn't OS classes at least be taught in C, the language in which OSes are generally written" - this is a popular opinion but it is not truly necessary, and after the experience TAing that compilers class I'm not going to gainsay the decision either way |
| 23:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh right, I forgot about Pascal, which I actually learned before Turing (which was also meant to be a Pascal replacement, and was used as such in my high school with, IMO, some success) |
| 23:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | My OS course was taught in C and involved actually taffing around inside the UNIX kernel, IIRC. |
| 23:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | (My compilers course was taught in Java, to the extent it was taught in any particular language, but was graded in "anything the TA could run on the lab machines"; I wrote my final project in a mix of C (for interfacing with flex and bison) and Lua (for literally everything else)) |
| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | ... ah, I see. It turns out that the OS stuff I'm talking about started out as a Berkeley project so I was "closer" to it than normal |
| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | "In 2000, Dan Hettena at UC Berkeley ported Nachos to Java as Nachos 5.0j, in an effort to make Nachos more portable, more accessible to undergraduates, and less susceptible to subtle bugs in student code that had in earlier versions often dominated student project development time." |
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| --- Log closed Wed Sep 08 00:00:20 2021 |