| --- Log opened Fri Jul 03 00:00:16 2020 |
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| 08:36 | <&jeroud> | #code, I have a question of immense importance. |
| 08:36 | <&jeroud> | One that may affect the world for generations to come. |
| 08:36 | <&jeroud> | What programming language should I learn next? |
| 08:37 | <&jeroud> | I need something new for Advent of Code at the end of the year. |
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| 08:39 | <&jeroud> | It's been a while since anything interesting caught my eye. |
| 08:44 | <~Vorntastic> | Gosh, what languages do you know already |
| 08:49 | <&McMartin> | Not-entirely-comedy option, but almost certainly inappropriate: Kotlin, the hot new mostly-JVM language that is very nearly as popular as COBOL |
| 08:49 | <&McMartin> | (The only reason this answer isn't 100% sarcasm is because AFAICT it really is being pushed for Android development quite hard) |
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| 09:56 | <&McMartin> | For the "academic and trying to be practical" language, Racket is an evolution of Scheme that I've seen people be fond of |
| 09:59 | <&McMartin> | As part of the job interview process I ended up pointed at codewars.com; I find its presentation very offputting but I have found the problems it poses, especially at the high-middle level, to be much more appealing than the Advent of Code problems. |
| 10:00 | <&McMartin> | It is significantly more thorough for self-driven practice than exercism |
| 10:02 | <@TheWatcher> | jeroud: why not write your own?~ |
| 10:07 | <&jeroud> | TheWatcher: Because that's a huge amount of work, and I don't have sufficient background in language design to do it right. |
| 10:07 | <&jeroud> | McMartin: Thanks, I shall take a look once I've chosen a language. :-) |
| 10:09 | <&McMartin> | You haven't answered Vorn though |
| 10:09 | <@TheWatcher> | jeroud: the second part of your reply doesn't seem to stop most people~ |
| 10:09 | <&jeroud> | I get the impression Kotlin is basically "a better Java", which means I'd almost invariably choose Clojure instead. |
| 10:10 | <&jeroud> | Vorntastic: Lots. Most recently: Rust, Elixir, Go, Clojure, Python. |
| 10:11 | <&jeroud> | But also a bunch of the "mainstream" languages with the exception of JS which I've been avoiding as far as possible. |
| 10:12 | <@TheWatcher> | Sensible chap. |
| 10:12 | <&jeroud> | TheWatcher: I'm not "most people".~ |
| 10:13 | <&jeroud> | I should note that while I avoid reading/writing Go as far as possible, I did put in the time and effort to learn it properly. |
| 10:13 | <&McMartin> | Racket might actually be a fun comparison with Clojure. |
| 10:14 | <&McMartin> | Or OCaml, for some of the background that clearly informed Rust. |
| 10:14 | <@TheWatcher> | Ruby? |
| 10:14 | <&jeroud> | I haven't looked at Racket, but I learned enough Scheme implementing (most of) R5RS in Rust to know that I don't much like it. |
| 10:14 | <@TheWatcher> | (I don't hate you, really) |
| 10:15 | <&jeroud> | My OCaml is very rusty, and I've already done AoC in it. :-P |
| 10:15 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, probably skip Racket then |
| 10:16 | <&jeroud> | Ruby is a "mainstream" language that I wrote professionally for three years and have already extracted all the value I'm likely to get from it. |
| 10:17 | <@TheWatcher> | Ah, my sympathies. |
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| 10:17 | <&jeroud> | For the time, Scheme was great. But I'm completely over having shared mutable state everywhere. |
| 10:18 | <&McMartin> | You could go hard the other direction and give Haskell a go. |
| 10:19 | <&jeroud> | Perhaps, if I can find any useful learning material. The last few times I tried everything was either awful or unusably obsolete. |
| 10:19 | <&jeroud> | Even figuring out how to get a dev environment set up was a disaster. |
| 10:19 | <@TheWatcher> | Eiffel? |
| 10:20 | <&jeroud> | I've heard that name before. |
| 10:20 | <&McMartin> | You could put your Rust discipline to the *real* test |
| 10:20 | <&McMartin> | And use C++ |
| 10:20 | <@TheWatcher> | :D |
| 10:21 | <&jerith> | Oh gods. "Remember that Eiffel, unlike other programming languages, is not just a programming language. Instead, it is a full life-cycle framework for software development." |
| 10:22 | <&McMartin> | You can tell who spent too much time out drinking with Smalltalk |
| 10:22 | <&McMartin> | Racket is similar |
| 10:22 | <&McMartin> | I enjoyed the AoC year I did in C beyond all reason |
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| 10:22 | <&McMartin> | fscanf is absurd hax for AoC style problems |
| 10:23 | <&jerith> | McMartin: I had a sufficiently traumatic experience with C++ in my youth that I'm unwilling to touch it recreationally. |
| 10:23 | <@TheWatcher> | jerith: it's basically the ivory tower predecessor to java/c#, and many of the OO purists I know claim it to be vastly superior to any of the lesser, sullied derivatives it inspired. |
| 10:24 | <&McMartin> | One of those derivatives, "Sather", was the language implemented by the undergrad compiler course back in my day |
| 10:24 | <&jerith> | Also, it seems to require a vast amount of programmer discipline to avoid using incorrectly. I am incapable of such discipline most of the time and rely heavily on tooling and language design to compensate. |
| 10:24 | <&McMartin> | Also "Self" gets a lot of noise from its fans |
| 10:25 | <&jerith> | I'm getting very strong Smalltalk vibes from Eiffel. |
| 10:26 | <&jerith> | And I found Smalltalk unusable because its everything-lives-inside-the-big-mutable-environment made it effectively impossible to even use revision control. |
| 10:28 | <&McMartin> | Basically none of the top 20 languages on the TIOBE Index are both new to you worth actually doing stuff with |
| 10:29 | <&jerith> | Ooh, why didn't I think of TIOBE? |
| 10:30 | <&jerith> | I wouldn't expect Scratch to be in the top 20. |
| 10:30 | <&McMartin> | Remember the criterion |
| 10:30 | <&McMartin> | Kids hanging out on dev forums count, and Scratch is *very* popular for education, formal and informatl. |
| 10:31 | <&jerith> | I guess I underestimated the volume of kids on forums. |
| 10:31 | <&McMartin> | But it's possible your toolbox is actually full enough now, and perhaps your task should involve deepening knowledge of it |
| 10:32 | <&jerith> | The only thing on the top 20 that looks even vaguely interesting to me is Swift, and that's only because it's "mainstream" enough to matter. |
| 10:33 | <&McMartin> | I don't think you'll like it |
| 10:33 | <&McMartin> | It's better than Go, but... |
| 10:33 | <@TheWatcher> | Ohgods, scratch |
| 10:33 | <&jerith> | "like" isn't necessarily a criterion for me, but "able to be productive for small to medium projects" is. |
| 10:33 | <@TheWatcher> | I think I still have left-over trauma from the old Animation Competition days. |
| 10:33 | <&jerith> | Go fails that. |
| 10:34 | <&McMartin> | Swift's pretensions to being anything but a replacement for ObjC in Mac and iOS programming are not credible, imo |
| 10:35 | <&jerith> | Julia was suggested to me elsenet, and having read through a couple of pages of its introduction it seems to have had a bunch of thought put into its design. |
| 10:37 | <&jerith> | From 21-50, Julia, Haskell, and Prolog look interesting. Haskell's currently disqualified due to its very poor effort:success ratio last time I tried, and I'm not sure if Prolog's even vaguely appropriate for something like AoC. |
| 10:39 | <@TheWatcher> | It isn't. |
| 10:42 | <&jerith> | So far I have Julia and Eiffel on my "to look into" list. |
| 10:48 | | * jerith watches a video from eiffel.com. |
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| 10:51 | <@TheWatcher> | Randomly, I'm still somewhat amused about the ranking of C in TIOBE, given the mantra I've heard for so many years that "C is dead" |
| 10:51 | <&jerith> | How many major operating systems are written in a language that isn't C? |
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| 10:52 | <&jerith> | I vaguely recall Windows being mostly C++, but other than that... |
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| 10:54 | <~Vorntastic> | I can't name many languages I'd dare write an os in, though maybe Rust could do it |
| 10:54 | <&jerith> | Rust would be my choice. |
| 11:10 | <&jerith> | "Someone once described Java as combining the simple, clean syntax of C with the blazing speed of Smalltalk." |
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| 15:50 | < catalyst> | oh heck |
| 15:50 | < catalyst> | I think I just worked out how my traits ought to be implemented |
| 15:50 | < catalyst> | time to break my api again |
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| 19:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | \o/ |
| 19:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | I've got long-polling working and I'm pretty happy with it |
| 19:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | the Ring approach of "one thread per request" may not Scale™ but it makes a lot of things much simpler |
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| 20:12 | <&jerith> | What are you doing with long-polling? |
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| 20:47 | <@TheWatcher> | One thread to request them all, and in the process bind() them? |
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| 21:50 | <&McMartin> | TheWatcher: I have a whole rant about software popularity metrics that I cannot really put on Bumbershoot because it's "out of it's lane" |
| 21:50 | <&McMartin> | TIOBE's methodology is literally to count number of google hits for the languages regarding programming it, though |
| 21:51 | <&McMartin> | So it favors forum churn and decentralized discussion; it's the languages people are talking about when they ask questions about how to do stuff, even when it's not *about* the language. |
| 21:51 | <&McMartin> | This is why Assembly Language is always hovering around just outside of the top 10; there will always be university students. |
| 21:52 | <&McMartin> | But for all its obvious shortcomings, I really do prefer the TIOBE metric over all the other ones I've seen attempted. |
| 21:52 | <&McMartin> | I have particularly unkind words for Stack Overflow's. |
| 21:52 | <&McMartin> | Which rates "most loved language" as "number of people who would like to use language X for their next project, evaluated as a percentage of people currently using language X" |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | "Most loved languages" generally end up being tiny cults. =P |
| 21:54 | | * McMartin also finishes the last project he was doing on CodeWars |
| 21:55 | <&McMartin> | These are no longer "kata" at this level; these are "weekly projects for upper-division undergraduates" |
| 21:55 | <&McMartin> | (In this case: an S-Expression parser that feeds into a symbolic differentiator) |
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| 22:04 | <~Vornicus> | Sounds like I should look into codewars |
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| 22:11 | <&McMartin> | I'll PM you the reference link |
| 22:12 | <&McMartin> | About half the material in the early levels is suffering from a nasty case of testosterone poisoning, but this goes away as the levels increase and the non-early material shows up |
| 22:13 | <&McMartin> | My more serious "objection" is that I have a pretty narrow idea of what counts as a programming kata, and I only actually grant it to challenges in the yellow range of 6 and 5 kyu. |
| 22:13 | <&McMartin> | White is "do you know the syntax" - a fine thing to drill on if you're new to a language, but that's *drill*, it's different |
| 22:13 | <~Vornicus> | testosterone poisoning? |
| 22:14 | <&McMartin> | There is an extremely poorly adapted martial arts metaphor they are trying to apply to stuff, and I found it more obvious in the earlier level stuff |
| 22:14 | <&McMartin> | "Code kata" *was* borrowed from karate but I usually restrict it to one level of practice above drill |
| 22:15 | <&McMartin> | It's practicing small- to mid-scale language constructs in ways that make you more comfortable with the general "feel" of the langauge or its standard libraries, so that when you're doing "real" work you don't have to look as much stuff up and these larger conceptual tools end up more immediately to hand. |
| 22:16 | <&McMartin> | The blue-level challenges are much closer to real work, and the purple-level ones are legit, if small, programming projects. |
| 22:18 | <&McMartin> | I've been making myself use iostreams for the C++ problems, basically to force myself to get comfortable with the behavior of iomanip and the like. |
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| --- Log closed Sat Jul 04 00:00:17 2020 |