| --- Log opened Fri May 01 00:00:40 2020 |
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| 16:11 | <@Alek> | well. this is just week 3 of 5 of very basic python, but we're already getting into calling functions with parameters and returning parameters, which half a book of python hadn't gotten around to before, much less a semester of C or C++, from what I can recall. |
| 16:11 | <@Alek> | and next week we get image manipulation. <_< |
| 16:12 | <@TheWatcher> | Wait, wat |
| 16:12 | <@TheWatcher> | how do you do damn near anything in c or c++ without covering functions with parameters and return values?! |
| 16:12 | <@Alek> | no idea! |
| 16:13 | <@Alek> | everything in one function, I think. |
| 16:14 | <@Alek> | to be fair, the book I was doing a few years ago was Learn Python The Hard Way. >_> |
| 16:14 | <@Alek> | python2 instead of 3 now, but still, half a book without mentioning function parameters and returns is definitely doing it the hard way. <_< |
| 16:16 | <@Alek> | still to figure out: how to do or kludge global variables and named array calls (instead of indexed). |
| 16:16 | <@Alek> | perhaps make constants for index positions? |
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| 17:39 | <&McMartin> | Named array calls? like foo[bar]? |
| 17:39 | <&McMartin> | constants for index positions would work, but the most natural way to represent that is with a dictionary |
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| 19:42 | < catalyst> | my crate is being downloaded between ten and thirty times a day recently :o |
| 19:42 | < catalyst> | I guess people find my cost useful |
| 19:42 | < catalyst> | code* |
| 19:45 | <&McMartin> | Always nice to see |
| 19:49 | < Emmy> | your crate? |
| 19:49 | < Emmy> | or was that also meant to be code? |
| 19:50 | <&McMartin> | "Crate": public Rust module |
| 19:50 | < catalyst> | ^ this |
| 19:50 | <&McMartin> | "Module" being a term of art in Rust that is smaller than a crate but slightly more than a mere namespace |
| 19:50 | < catalyst> | https://crates.io/crates/float_eq |
| 19:50 | < catalyst> | specifically this one |
| 19:51 | | * Emmy blinks |
| 19:52 | < Emmy> | I'll admit that code is above me ^.^; |
| 19:52 | < Emmy> | *beyond, not above |
| 19:54 | <&McMartin> | catalyst's niche appears to be the gruesome underbelly of library code. |
| 19:56 | < catalyst> | I do seem to live there a lot |
| 19:56 | < catalyst> | mostly I see my job as making hard things easier so people can get more done |
| 19:58 | <&McMartin> | I say the same thing about myself but seem to get up to very different things :) |
| 19:59 | < catalyst> | there's a lot of hard things :) |
| 20:00 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. I've been trying to develop my skills at a level of "presenting clean abstractions" at a level or two higher than this |
| 20:01 | <&McMartin> | The closest I've gotten to building something at this level was an asynchronous promise system to make up for C++'s and ObjC's lacks at the time, and even there it was part of a more generalized RPC mechanism that was what my "clients" really wanted. |
| 20:01 | | * Emmy shrugs |
| 20:02 | < Emmy> | i'm just a lowly VB(A/.net) / C# /SQL programmer. |
| 20:02 | < Emmy> | i make applications for administration work. |
| 20:03 | <&McMartin> | Your clients are the admins. |
| 20:03 | <&McMartin> | Broadly speaking, your clients are the ones who actually are doing work. You empower them. I empower you. Catalyst empowers me. |
| 20:03 | <&McMartin> | Seems to be the abstraction layers in which we work most comfortably, anyway. |
| 20:03 | < catalyst> | and I live on top of what the hardware engineers do for me |
| 20:04 | <&McMartin> | If you're a C# programmer, you *can* work at the level I prefer but may prefer not to or have to work harder at it than I would, and likewise for me at yours or catalyst's |
| 20:05 | < Emmy> | In the words of newton, 'dwarves standing on the shoulders of giants' :P |
| 20:05 | < catalyst> | I spent a while in C#, it's a very capable language, especially if what you want to do is applications for people to use |
| 20:05 | < catalyst> | honestly I prefer C# to C++ for most things |
| 20:05 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 20:05 | <&McMartin> | In fact the more I used C++ the more I realized I never preferred it for, well, nearly anything |
| 20:06 | | mode/#code [+o Syloq] by ChanServ |
| 20:06 | < Emmy> | my C# is somewhat beginner level, i think, though there was that one time last month where i had to correct a bug in the API library by a major (online) accounting company, so i've got that going for me :P |
| 20:06 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 20:07 | < catalyst> | the things c++ does well are almost entirely subsumed by rust |
| 20:07 | < catalyst> | so uh, I'm just using that now |
| 20:07 | | * McMartin nods |
| 20:08 | <&McMartin> | The companies interested in me seem to mostly be using Rust-generation languages that aren't as good as Rust, so I'm practicing a bit with their ugly corners to see how best to defang them. |
| 20:08 | < catalyst> | I'm honestly incredibly impressed with how far rust has come in five years |
| 20:09 | < catalyst> | D missed the boat |
| 20:09 | <&McMartin> | D had been hovering around for ages |
| 20:09 | <&McMartin> | It never seemed to have taken off |
| 20:09 | <&McMartin> | tbh Rust still hasn't but it brought more to the table. |
| 20:09 | <&McMartin> | D brought... mixins, which I think are a deleterious mutation to OO tbh |
| 20:21 | < catalyst> | rust just has almost Lisp macros |
| 20:21 | < catalyst> | which are lush |
| 20:21 | < catalyst> | Rust feels like it could take off in a way that D never quite seems to be close to |
| 20:22 | < catalyst> | it's the whole lifetimes and safety aspect as well as people knowing about it for WASM purposes |
| 20:22 | | * McMartin nods |
| 20:23 | <&McMartin> | I feel it still has some way to go. Right now it's at "trendy", but for too many people knowing Rust is a way to flex, not a way to improve productivity. |
| 20:23 | <&McMartin> | The state of the industry is so grim right now that Golang meaningfully improves productivity for many >_< |
| 20:24 | <&McMartin> | But I'm firmly in the camp that lifetime types are the correct solution for for what aggressive reference counting ultimately ends up mostly doing |
| 20:25 | <&McMartin> | It's not sufficient but it covers the 80% of cases that you absolutely need |
| 20:25 | <&McMartin> | (And for the rest, that's what Box<>, Rc<>, and Arc<> are for) |
| 20:25 | <&McMartin> | (I remember another games industry veteran telling me that Arc<> alone was a convincing argument for Rust uptake, which I did not expect to hear) |
| 20:33 | < catalyst> | interesting |
| 20:33 | < catalyst> | lifetimes actually enable a bunch of single threaded optimisations on base types that C++ just can't do because it's too difficult to be safe with them |
| 20:33 | < catalyst> | (I mean, it can do but I've also seen literally weeks of work time wasted tracking down the bugs) |
| 20:35 | <&McMartin> | Yep |
| 20:35 | <&McMartin> | Discipline is not a replacement for a machine's systematicity |
| 20:35 | <&McMartin> | Even though you (by necessity) use it as one |
| 20:35 | <&McMartin> | I don't have a fully formed thought attached to that yet but one is coalescing as I do more retrocoding work |
| 20:56 | < catalyst> | makes sense to me |
| 21:13 | < Yossarian> | Cleaning up and found a 2006 Canon Powershot SD630 that takes the custom CHDK firmware that lets you do different things. Wonder if I could write code to enumerate the camera as a webcam device under linux easily? Or if Walmart sells solder I can get one of these xbox 360 kinects to USB and the additional required 12vdc@1a (I have such a PSU, in my lipo charging bag for my RC stuff) |
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| 21:19 | < Yossarian> | I have two Xbox 360 Kinect cams, they were going for peanuts at Goodwill when I walked in. They can be used for face tracking and even photogammetry in near real time. $3 and $4 respectively. |
| 21:27 | < Yossarian> | Although the newer Kinect for Xbone has a better resolution. I already wanted to get into scanning objects anyway but what I want to scan are certain laptop chassis for reproduction & modification |
| 21:35 | <~Vornicus> | kinects are amazing and underused |
| 22:34 | <@Alek> | ok, another python question. constants are global, by convention, but is there anything prohibiting functions from actually modifying them? |
| 22:35 | < ErikMesoy> | Yes, sort of: you have to say "global". |
| 22:37 | <~Vornicus> | You have to say global to *assign* to a global |
| 22:37 | <~Vornicus> | running methods, including invisible methods like indexing, is fine in all situations |
| 22:40 | < ErikMesoy> | Right. To be more specific, Alek - if you declare "blah=10" as a global, and inside a function say "blah = 12", the function will by default create a local variable blah that gets cleaned up at the end of the function. Global blah will still be 10. |
| 22:41 | <~Vornicus> | on the other hand: blah = {} as a global and then inside a function blah['monkeys'] = 'space' will modify the global blah |
| 22:43 | <@Alek> | I'm missing something obvious, I'm sure, because both examples seem to be the same. |
| 22:44 | < ErikMesoy> | Alek: A function saying "blah=12" will not touch global blah. A function calling "blah.MakeMeTwelve()" will touch global blah. Clearer? |
| 22:46 | <@Alek> | nooot quite, but that's probably because I haven't gotten as far as x.y() variables (as opposed to subfunctions) yet. |
| 22:51 | < ErikMesoy> | OK. Maybe it's better if I try to back up and briefly answer Alek's original question as asked, rather than getting into detail: Very little prevents python functions from modifying global constants. |
| 22:51 | <~Vornicus> | 'constants' |
| 22:52 | < ErikMesoy> | There's one layer of syntactic sugar, the "global" keyword, to make it harder to accidentally overwrite your global variables with local variables. |
| 22:53 | < ErikMesoy> | As Vorn says, 'constants' aren't really constant in Python. |
| 22:53 | < ErikMesoy> | They're more like 'variables with a note attached, saying to not vary them'. :P |
| 23:20 | <@Alek> | ok, thanks. |
| 23:21 | <@Alek> | I hope to get enough sleep tonight, but right now I've got to do and submit my assignments by the end of the day. -_- |
| 23:21 | <@Alek> | on very_much_not_enough_sleep |
| 23:26 | <@Alek> | I did manage to figure out how to retrieve an indexed entry of a list, when they haven't covered that yet, so there's that. |
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| --- Log closed Sat May 02 00:00:42 2020 |