| --- Log opened Tue Feb 18 00:00:35 2020 |
| 00:34 | | Vornicus [Vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 01:13 | < catalyst2> | woo, I'm two stars away from solving aoc |
| 01:20 | <@Reiv> | nice! |
| 01:36 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 02:12 | <&McMartin> | I ended up skipping AOC2019. At some point I may pick that back up, but I've still got "real" personal projects |
| 02:12 | <&McMartin> | This is also why I have not picked up MOLEK-SYNTEZ |
| 02:19 | <@Reiv> | What, you don't wanna be a ukranian crackhouse in your spare time? |
| 02:31 | <&McMartin> | Why be a pretend Ukrainian crackhouse when... you know what, my usual phrasing here does not work as well for MOLEK-SYNTEZ as it does for SHENZHEN I/O |
| 02:50 | | * Reiv laughs |
| 02:50 | <@Reiv> | yup, pretty much >_> |
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| 03:25 | < catalyst2> | I decided I wanted to learn rust and having finite puzzles to work on is good |
| 03:26 | < catalyst2> | What's MOLEK-SYNTEZ? |
| 03:28 | <@Alek> | presumably a programming game like SHENZHEN I/O |
| 03:31 | < catalyst2> | Oh, it's literally the name of a Zachtronics game |
| 03:41 | <&McMartin> | Except it's space chem, in a Romanian slum, making drugs. |
| 03:43 | <@Alek> | hah |
| 03:44 | <@celticminstrel> | Maaaybe I should finish SpaceChem someday. |
| 03:45 | <@Alek> | same |
| 03:45 | <&McMartin> | I would like to not be the only kid on the block to have pitted my wits against the might of XOTHOTHOR |
| 03:46 | <&McMartin> | (XOTHOTHOR!) |
| 03:46 | <&McMartin> | (He's immune to bullets!) |
| 03:46 | <&McMartin> | (And love!) |
| 03:46 | <@celticminstrel> | !? |
| 03:46 | <&McMartin> | The threats in the later Defense missions all have very silly names. |
| 03:47 | | * Alek installs. |
| 03:47 | <&McMartin> | The other SpaceChemmers here, I think, mostly stalled out against BAH SHOGTH, THE CONTROLLER, which was earlier on |
| 03:47 | <@celticminstrel> | IIRC I only did one defense mission in SpaceChem. Can't remember whether I beat it or got stuck on it. |
| 03:47 | <&McMartin> | But the thing about XOTHOTHOR (Xothothor!) is that I can't not read it in the same voice as the denizens of Lungfishopolis panicking over the advent of GOGGALOR in Psychonauts. |
| 03:48 | <@celticminstrel> | Haha |
| 03:48 | <@celticminstrel> | I just smashed everything as GOGGALOR. |
| 03:51 | <&McMartin> | Even the puppy orphanage |
| 03:51 | <&McMartin> | You monster |
| 03:51 | <@celticminstrel> | Was there a puppy orphanage? |
| 03:51 | <&McMartin> | Though AIUI if you go back later after the mission is completed, they tell you that they have come to realize that lungfish are not meant to live in cities, so go ahead and smash as much as you want. |
| 03:52 | <@celticminstrel> | XD |
| 03:52 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, it was some of the backchatter when you smash things, one of them is something like "oh no! he's destroyed a building full of puppies!" "No, that was the orphanage! Oh no!" "It was a puppy orphanage!" |
| 03:52 | <&McMartin> | The same loop of stuff including the "Immune to bullets! And love!" stuff. |
| 03:53 | <&McMartin> | ... and for those of you in the channel who did not play a then-obscure game literally twenty years ago |
| 03:53 | <&McMartin> | Psychonauts is a game in which one invades the psyches of various characters, which become the maps in an action-adventure. |
| 03:53 | <&McMartin> | One of these things is The Monster That Lives In The Lake, which is a giant mutant lungfish |
| 03:53 | <&McMartin> | And like most wildlife it is as scared of you as you are of it, right |
| 03:54 | <&McMartin> | So when you make your way into its mind you appear as GOGGALOR, and it's basically a kaiju movie with you as Godzilla. |
| 03:54 | <&McMartin> | (Our hero wears goggles) |
| 03:54 | <@celticminstrel> | I clearly have no idea what games are obscure or not. |
| 03:54 | | * Alek blinks. |
| 03:54 | <@Alek> | okaaaay... this is interesting. |
| 03:55 | <@Alek> | tried 1st level again just to refresh myself. |
| 03:55 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: Basically, "are you the kind of person who played Grim Fandango when it came out" is a pretty strong filter nowadays~ |
| 03:55 | <@Alek> | best cycles 108, mine 108. best symbols 8, mine 9. |
| 03:55 | <@Alek> | that was my old solution. |
| 03:56 | <@celticminstrel> | So your new solution as slightly worse than the old one? |
| 03:56 | <@celticminstrel> | ^was |
| 03:56 | <&McMartin> | Has one extra symbol that costs no time, it looks like. |
| 03:56 | <@Alek> | I decided to see if it could be tweaked... instead of a loop, transformed it into a line. saved 2 symbols. cycles... 127, symbols 7, best is still 8. |
| 03:56 | <&McMartin> | Huh. |
| 03:56 | <&McMartin> | Maybe it will update once you get back to the main menu |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | (Meanwhile, I do still have half the bonus campaign left in EXAPUNKS, and a handful of TIS-100 bonus levels.) |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | To date SpaceChem and Opus Magnum are the only Zach games I've 100%ed. |
| 03:57 | <@Alek> | so it did, but I'm still wondering about that 8-symbol solution and how many cycles it was. >_> |
| 03:58 | <&McMartin> | ... oh yeah, in SHENZHEN I/O I just didn't unlock the bonus campaign because I felt it would be out of character for me to do so. |
| 03:58 | <@Alek> | oh well, I got a best- solution 2 ways now. :P |
| 03:58 | <&McMartin> | My final sets of solutions all have names like "speed" or "size" for what I'm optimizing |
| 03:58 | <&McMartin> | The first solution is always named "function" :D |
| 04:00 | <@Alek> | ... record 47 cycles, 6 symbols wtd |
| 04:00 | <@Alek> | wtf |
| 04:00 | <&McMartin> | People have gotten stupid good at this over the years |
| 04:00 | <&McMartin> | This is why the later games stop reporting the record and instead the 90th and 99th percentiles. |
| 04:00 | <@Alek> | this is listing just my friends, including you. |
| 04:01 | < catalyst2> | If I try playing these games I will probably never leave |
| 04:01 | <&McMartin> | I wonder if SpaceChem has cloud saves. |
| 04:01 | <@Alek> | ok, maybe not you, I'm not seeing your name. |
| 04:01 | <@Alek> | my steam friends anyway |
| 04:01 | <&McMartin> | I don't broadcast my steam handle here, but I can take this to PM |
| 04:01 | <@Alek> | cloud saves yes, because it loaded my game from several machines ago |
| 04:01 | <@Alek> | Vorn has the #1 spot. >_> |
| 04:02 | <&McMartin> | Aha. |
| 04:02 | <&McMartin> | Also I See You |
| 04:02 | <@celticminstrel> | My solution was probably not optimized at all. |
| 04:03 | <@celticminstrel> | (Assuming we're talking SpaceChem.) |
| 04:03 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 04:03 | <@Alek> | when I played before, I hadn't realized you could turn around on the same line. Barely got into planet 2 before I stopped for whatever reason. |
| 04:03 | <&McMartin> | Now I have to reinstall to look at stuff. |
| 04:03 | <@Alek> | now I tried that. more cycles, less symbols. |
| 04:04 | <@Alek> | spot 2 on planet 1 is identical to spot 1 only the other reactor, so I'm leaving my old solution there for remembrance. |
| 04:05 | <&McMartin> | I supsect the fastest solutions will be aggressively parallel. |
| 04:05 | <&McMartin> | Also man |
| 04:06 | <&McMartin> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddiFKPnovgg is burned into my soul. |
| 04:06 | <&McMartin> | Also I'm not sure why it's always Solving3 that is the song that sticks with me the hardest in Zachtronics games but it sure is! |
| 04:07 | <@Alek> | spot 3... still not sure how to optimize that, but ugh. |
| 04:07 | <&McMartin> | Oh yeah, SpaceChem doesn't have multiple solution slots, does it. |
| 04:07 | <&McMartin> | That came in with TIS-100, I think. |
| 04:07 | <@Alek> | you can't choose which direction you start in either, apparently. |
| 04:08 | <@Alek> | ohhh wait you CAN move your start spot.... |
| 04:09 | <&McMartin> | Other Solving3.oggs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBUAIz6EDf8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU4l9yTVy7s |
| 04:09 | <@Alek> | only blue can really be moved, but uh... that saved me a whopping 1 cycle. >_> |
| 04:14 | <@Alek> | spot 4.... NOW I'm following the instructions, which I definitely didn't do last time. :P |
| 04:14 | | * McMartin looks at his unsolved bonus challenges in EXAPUNKS |
| 04:14 | <&McMartin> | "Recover anime from a malfunctioning hard drive array" |
| 04:14 | <&McMartin> | It's Cyberpunk Future Year 1998, that shit is basically irreplacable. Checks out. |
| 04:17 | <@Alek> | ffff |
| 04:17 | <@Alek> | me: 121 cycles, 18 symbols. vorn: 87 cycles, 10 symbols. :P |
| 04:18 | <@celticminstrel> | :P |
| 04:18 | <@Alek> | whittled down to 120 cycles, huh. |
| 04:19 | <@Alek> | placement of the final out matters. >_> |
| 04:26 | <@Alek> | Damn, Vorn, making us look inadequate. :P |
| 04:28 | <&McMartin> | Vorn and jerith alike take their Zaching very, very seriously |
| 04:28 | <&McMartin> | They are, if you will, l33t z4xx0rz. |
| 04:35 | <@Alek> | ha |
| 04:42 | <@Alek> | oh wow. |
| 04:42 | <@Alek> | had a breakthrough, O to O=O doesn't need 2 loops, only 1. |
| 04:42 | <@Alek> | and I'm STILL not even close to Vorn, but at least I'm #2 in symbols behind him in that spot now. :P |
| 04:45 | <@Alek> | neither does N-=N for that matter. |
| 05:05 | <@Alek> | and now we have reactors and reactor placement. -_- |
| 05:17 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 05:20 | <@Alek> | ok, Acetylene's gonna break my brain already, so I'm going to bed. |
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| 05:33 | <&jeroud> | SpaceChem makes me very frustrated very quickly. |
| 05:34 | <&jeroud> | SHENZHEN I/O was My Game when it was new. |
| 05:34 | <&jeroud> | The along came Exapunks, which was even more My Game. |
| 05:35 | <&jeroud> | Turns out embedded systems are things I did as a hobby in the past, distributed systems are things I do for a living in the present. |
| 05:37 | <&McMartin> | For reasons I'm only half sure of Opus Magnum was the one that was My Game. |
| 05:37 | <&jeroud> | If MOLEK-SYNTEZ is anything like SpaceChem, I'll give it a miss. |
| 05:37 | <&McMartin> | I can't tell if it's more SpaceChem or more like Opus Magnum. The stream of instructions looks very OM-y. |
| 05:38 | <&jeroud> | McMartin: You are possibly the most AlchePunk person in here. |
| 05:38 | <&McMartin> | I mean, that's true |
| 05:38 | <&McMartin> | But not what my half notion is of why |
| 05:38 | <&McMartin> | It is specifically that I'm doing something not unlike embedded stuff as a hobby now, and as such the overt programming games feel too much like work. |
| 05:39 | <&jeroud> | I found my Opus Magnum solutions far more satisfying than my SHENZHEN I/O or Exapunks solutions. |
| 05:40 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, it's also inherently a more beautiful game. |
| 05:40 | <&jeroud> | But the game is specifically designed to have satisfying solutions. |
| 05:40 | <&jeroud> | SHENZHEN I/O has the vastly superior solitaire, though. |
| 05:40 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. Lightning has yet to strike twice, as it were. |
| 05:41 | <&McMartin> | Shenzhen Solitaire was the Good Card Game he had in him. Everything since has been the Difficult Second Album. |
| 05:41 | <&jeroud> | Despite being a school project for a teenager rather than an Ancient And Venerable Passtime. |
| 05:41 | <&McMartin> | I dunno, that checks out~ |
| 05:44 | <&jeroud> | If MOLEK-SYNTEZ is more OM than SC, I'll give it a go. But I'll need confirmation of that first. |
| 05:45 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I can see that |
| 05:45 | <&McMartin> | I'm not sure how to do the test though as the full set is mostly thinking the same~ |
| 05:46 | <&jeroud> | Meanwhile, I am about three or four hours into The Witcher 3 and I see why so many people have recommended it to me. |
| 05:46 | <&McMartin> | Maybe some of the ifMUD people will pick it up early on. |
| 05:46 | <&McMartin> | I've got two key items left in Metroid Prime. |
| 05:46 | <&jeroud> | McMartin: I think it's the sensitivity of the solution to small changes. |
| 05:47 | <&McMartin> | In OM or SC? |
| 05:47 | <&jeroud> | In SC you tweak something and everything after the tweak is different (in timing, if nothing else). |
| 05:48 | <&jeroud> | In OM you have far more parallelism and thus far more independent variables that can be tweaked without inherently changing everything else. |
| 05:49 | <&McMartin> | ... also, come to think of it |
| 05:49 | <&McMartin> | SC unless you do some expensive operations, the waldos never stop. |
| 05:49 | <&McMartin> | I did a lot of extremely hard synchronization in my solutions. |
| 05:50 | <&McMartin> | Which also let me exploit some pretty crazy stuff in lategame SpaceChem |
| 05:50 | <&jeroud> | I used to think my trouble with SC was a spacio-temporal reasoning thing, but then OM provided a counterexample. |
| 05:50 | <&McMartin> | like, there's one where the solution is this 8x4 nightmare grid that fills the whole output region |
| 05:50 | <&McMartin> | And I solved it in 30 minutes because I was able to use "subroutines" in a clever way |
| 05:51 | <&McMartin> | and I feel like improving the solution in any way (it was awful) will remove the thing I clearly optimized :D |
| 05:51 | <&jeroud> | SC feels a lot more "cramped" than OM. (Even OM's production challenges, which are deliberately cramped.) |
| 05:53 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. Looking at the molecules form in the trailer feels slightly more OM-y, becuase you aren't trying to hurl this thing through a bunch of places where your molecules will crash into stuff |
| 05:53 | <&McMartin> | It looks more like you're growing these things from the inside out. |
| 05:54 | <@Alek> | it's frustrating not being able to see even close to the "best" solution, but at least my solutions work. :/ |
| 05:55 | <@Alek> | the UI is also not exactly conducive to shuffling around to brute-force it, although it's better than I thought back when I originally played. |
| 05:55 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 05:56 | <&McMartin> | Defense missions are... something else again. |
| 05:56 | <&McMartin> | Those don't really come up for real until world... 4, IIRC. |
| 05:57 | <&McMartin> | My approach to those was extremely different to everyone else's. |
| 05:57 | <@Alek> | it'd be nice to be able to do logic gates, but that doesn't seem to be possible (yet). |
| 05:57 | <&jeroud> | Ah, M-S *does* look more OM than SC. |
| 05:58 | <&McMartin> | There are conditionals about halfway through, and the last thing you get is a "flipflop" node that alters the direction of the cursor every *other* time you hit it. |
| 05:59 | <@Alek> | spacechem is definitely 2D delimited, it'd be nice to see one that's more 3D capable - but that'd introduce possibilities at least an order of magnitude more complicated. >_> |
| 05:59 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 05:59 | <&McMartin> | Well. There's Infinifactory. |
| 05:59 | <&jeroud> | Multiple parallel manipulators, instructions not embedded in spacetime, etc. |
| 05:59 | <@Alek> | oh neat, flipflop is definitely what I was looking for here, too bad it's not possible this early. |
| 05:59 | <&McMartin> | It's pretty brutal :D |
| 06:00 | <&jeroud> | Infinifactory was fun. |
| 06:00 | <&McMartin> | That's the one mainline Zach game I haven't played. |
| 06:00 | <&jeroud> | But I found it getting somewhat tedious in the bigger levels. |
| 06:01 | <&McMartin> | They also made a visual novel a year or two ago named Eliza I know nothing about. |
| 06:01 | <@Alek> | Space-Chem is my only Zach game so far. |
| 06:01 | <@Alek> | good night for real now. -_- |
| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | I am very confident in saying that they got better at this over the past decade :D |
| 06:02 | <&jeroud> | Alek: I thoroughly recommend Opus Magnum if you enjoy this sort of thing. |
| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | The trailer for OM is fabulous |
| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj689znjxpg |
| 06:04 | <@Alek> | It's not so much that I enjoy it, it's that it's at least moderately interesting and I do need to practice my problem-solving skills (and my pseudo-programming and pseudo-engineering skills). |
| 06:04 | | * McMartin nods. |
| 06:05 | <&McMartin> | EXAPUNKS is the most Real Programming |
| 06:05 | <@Alek> | I don't really enjoy much anymore these days, besides reading. |
| 06:05 | <@Alek> | and that only insofar as it's escapism. mostly fluff and adventure. |
| 06:08 | <&jeroud> | Why do I keep forgetting that EXAPUNKS is allcaps? |
| 06:08 | <&McMartin> | Becuase you're mentally editing it out, since it's kind of anachronistic. |
| 06:09 | <&McMartin> | By the 1990s we'd invented mixed-case. |
| 06:09 | <&jeroud> | Alek: Go to sleep already!~ |
| 06:09 | <&McMartin> | But "ExAs" looks too l33t even for it, even though it's the "correct" way to abbreviate Execution Agent. |
| 06:10 | <&jeroud> | And then uninvented it for SHENZHEN I/O? |
| 06:10 | <&jeroud> | Although I guess Chinese has no case. |
| 06:11 | <&McMartin> | 是的，中文沒有。 |
| 06:12 | <&McMartin> | ... I recognize a surprising number of those characters. |
| 06:13 | <&McMartin> | (specifically, 是, 中, and 有) |
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| --- Log opened Tue Feb 18 08:15:23 2020 |
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| 10:33 | <&McMartin> | https://twitter.com/Foone/status/1229641258370355200 |
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| 13:38 | <@abudhabi_> | McMartin: Me too. I can almost read that! "Yes, Chinese <something> have". |
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| 19:49 | <&McMartin> | abudhabi_: It was intended to be "does not", but it's not the word I know for "does not" but the one I do know isn't for verbs |
| --- Log closed Tue Feb 18 19:50:17 2020 |
| --- Log opened Tue Feb 18 19:59:16 2020 |
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| 23:01 | <&[R]> | OMFG YES |
| 23:01 | <&[R]> | This mp3 player just straight up lets you mount its filesystem normally |
| 23:01 | <&[R]> | Provides two "disks" when you plug it in: internal storage and SD storage |
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| 23:10 | <&McMartin> | [R]: That should be totally standard and yet I am impressed enough that I must ask the brand, so that it might be properly praised. |
| 23:11 | <&[R]> | I haven't actually tried it to play music yet |
| 23:11 | <&[R]> | So bear that in mind |
| 23:12 | <&[R]> | https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07S9CKLKL/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 |
| 23:12 | <&[R]> | There's the guy |
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| 23:12 | <&[R]> | Note: it's *MUCH* smaller than the images suggest |
| 23:15 | <&[R]> | My thumb is longer than it is |
| 23:15 | < Emmy> | that's what she- *SHOT* |
| 23:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Neat. |
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| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | Well. I hope it is a worthwhile product, because that design decision should be rewarded. |
| 23:21 | <&[R]> | Yeah |
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| 23:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DaveBaggett/20131031/203788/My_Hardest_Bug_Ever.php |
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| 23:59 | <&McMartin> | That is some VSP-level shit right there |
| --- Log closed Wed Feb 19 00:00:10 2020 |