| --- Log opened Thu Feb 14 00:00:27 2019 |
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| 00:12 | <@Reiv> | ... |
| 00:19 | <&McMartin> | On the one hand, this is what the compute module is actually for |
| 00:19 | <&McMartin> | On the other, I can't look at RPi blade racks without giggling. |
| 00:19 | <&McMartin> | https://www.bitscope.com/product/blade/03.jpg |
| 00:28 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...but why? |
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| 01:32 | <&McMartin> | Why giggle, why racks, or why compute modules |
| 01:34 | <&McMartin> | why compute modules - I dunno, but there was strong demand for a Pi that was optimized for industrial applications |
| 01:35 | <&McMartin> | If I'm feeling cynical: this is what you need to do to defend against hypervisor attacks - do not have a hypervisor |
| 01:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | So the use case is less "we need a lot of computing power" (which is where I usually see blades deployed) and more "we need hosting for a bunch of low-power applications that are completely isolated from each other"? |
| 01:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | And yeah, it was "why compute modules" since if you need a lot of cycles there are much more economic ways to get them |
| 01:47 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that is the only use case I see for Pi blades. |
| 01:48 | <~Vornicus> | I don't even know what counts as a low-power application any more |
| 01:48 | <&McMartin> | For the compute module generally, if you need a microcontroller and want it to be a Proper Processor but don't need the rest of the bits of the Pi that make it a full Single Board Computer |
| 01:48 | <&McMartin> | The compute module is a better choice than a lot of things intentionally built for that |
| 01:48 | <&McMartin> | Because even taking the SBC aspects of the basic Pi into account it was better at that than an embarassing number of options |
| 01:49 | <&McMartin> | Vornicus: Flashcarts for old consoles >_> |
| 01:50 | <&McMartin> | The pi racks came up when I suggested that this kind of isolation was the only thing that would really have a chance against Spectre-like attacks on hypervisors |
| 01:50 | <~Vornicus> | that I figured |
| 01:50 | <&McMartin> | That group had a lot of retrotech folks, and the reaction there seemed to be more "want, because shiny" |
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| 03:11 | <&[R]> | I love the use of non-twisted pair cables |
| 03:17 | <@Alek> | Ribbon Ethernet, gotta be handy for short and simple runs like that. Like Ribbon SATA in PCs. |
| 03:18 | <&[R]> | Good for data loss too |
| 03:18 | <&[R]> | Or packet loss rather |
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| 05:56 | | * McMartin eyes this document |
| 05:56 | <&McMartin> | Man, 1982 was a different time. |
| 05:56 | <&McMartin> | This OS reference manual has in its appendix the assembly language listing of the entire BIOS-equivalent. |
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| 07:20 | <&McMartin> | https://bumbershootsoft.wordpress.com/2019/02/14/atari-800-stumbling-into-a-new-system/ |
| 07:20 | <&McMartin> | My initial estimate here is that a proper treatment of "Hello World" will require at least four posts. |
| 07:20 | <&McMartin> | Since this is a system where the only truly reliable way to say Hello World in machine code is to package it as part of its own bootloader. |
| 07:21 | <~Vorntastic> | What. |
| 07:22 | <&McMartin> | The 6502 really really wants things to be done at absolute addresses. |
| 07:22 | <&McMartin> | Atari DOS and cartridge and peripheral configurations can really really seriously warp the memory map to the point where providing a DOS-based executable is hopeless without providing your own specific DOS version on that floppy. |
| 07:23 | <&McMartin> | And as long as you're doing that, you might as well use the BIOS diskette start sequence to load yourself *instead of* DOS, and this was very much the expected behavior |
| 07:23 | <&McMartin> | Not to mention basically the only way to reasonably ship software on casette tape |
| 07:23 | <&McMartin> | Oh yeah: you also can't rely on BASIC existing |
| 07:24 | <~Vorntastic> | Cute |
| 07:24 | <&McMartin> | Basically, it's the Bad Old Days of DOS but ten years early |
| 07:24 | <&McMartin> | Also you may recall that image you found for how one should look while programming in BASIC |
| 07:24 | <&McMartin> | The Atari 400 and 800 are from 1979 |
| 07:24 | <&McMartin> | All the public-facing manuals kind of look like that |
| 07:25 | <&McMartin> | This fades off by 1982 or so, alas |
| 07:25 | <&McMartin> | A generation and a half later while it's still holding its own against the latest hotness and would for three more years after that |
| 07:25 | <~Vorntastic> | The BASIC Programming cartridge cover with the dude looking all Minority Report? |
| 07:26 | <&McMartin> | Yes |
| 07:26 | <&McMartin> | http://www.atarimania.com/documents/Atari_800_Operators_Manual_rev_2.pdf |
| 07:26 | <&McMartin> | http://www.atarimania.com/documents/Disk_Operating_System_Reference_Manual.pdf |
| 07:27 | <&McMartin> | Also I would like to reiterate that this system's "intended power" is only slightly worse than the Commodore 64's intended power |
| 07:28 | <&McMartin> | But that it is an older design than not only the C64 but the VIC-20 |
| 07:28 | <&McMartin> | It was competing against the TRS-80 and PET |
| 07:28 | <&McMartin> | And most of the marketing hype from the era is treating its appearance at CES etc as if it were a bolt of lightning and given that I can't really be super-surprised about it |
| 07:28 | <&McMartin> | OTOH its precise limitations are really annoying to me~ |
| 07:29 | <&McMartin> | When I tried to do Lights-Out for it, I struggled very hard to get a display I liked |
| 07:29 | <&McMartin> | And once I did I realized that I wasn't using much of its power |
| 07:29 | <&McMartin> | ... at which point I realized that the design would work almost completely unmodified on the Atari 2600 |
| 07:29 | <&McMartin> | Which is why Lights-Out 2600 exists~ |
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| 08:26 | | * Vorntastic fiddles with thoughts re: optimization of cryptogram solving for computers |
| 08:33 | <~Vorntastic> | Pre-work: group words from the dictionary by letter pattern. Then do this by word, depth first: iterate words matching pattern, filtering out those that 1. Don't match already picked letter matches, 2. Include letters that have already matched but not in the right place, 3. Match ciphertext with cleartext letters. Each of these can be partially cached at various levels depending on the match type |
| 08:52 | <~Vorntastic> | Which means... My translation dictionary includes the first layer in which it is included. Then going back up deletes entries induced by the word we're unsolving |
| 09:34 | <~Vorntastic> | When descending a layer, choose which word to work on based on how many possible words remain. This fails faster when a word becomes impossible to fill, and reduces total decent attempts |
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| 10:28 | | * TheWatcher arghs at people who can't write documentation |
| 10:31 | <@TheWatcher> | It's one thing to not be able to write decent docs. It's a hard skill. I know. But FFS, if you have multiple issues in your issue tracker all related to problems caused by really crap explanation in your docs, perhaps it might be time to at least fix /that/ part?! |
| 11:19 | < Emmy> | nah, that's when you apply a half-assed, undocumented, hack fix |
| 11:20 | < Emmy> | with not a single line of commentary in the source, naturally |
| 11:44 | <@TheWatcher> | In this case, there's a function A() that takes a bunch of parameters. If you specify one parameter it invokes function B(), and if you specify another parameter it also invokes B(). And you can specify both parameters, and despite the fact that B() should only be called once on an object, A() will go ahead and do it and there's no documentation saying this, or warning or |
| 11:44 | <@TheWatcher> | error message generated. So the only way you find out why things aren't working properly is to either read the source, or find the other people complaining about this in the issue tracker. |
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| 19:43 | <&McMartin> | Also, because I forgot to link this last night |
| 19:43 | <&McMartin> | An Intentionally Designed-In Linking Technology |
| 19:44 | <&McMartin> | https://bumbershootsoft.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/atari_hello_5.png |
| 19:44 | <&McMartin> | This is not a very good idea on this chip, tbh |
| 19:44 | <&McMartin> | (It's real, real bad at PIC) |
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| --- Log closed Fri Feb 15 00:00:28 2019 |