| --- Log opened Thu Oct 25 00:00:15 2018 |
| 00:13 | | Degi [Degi@Nightstar-pgsqus.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 00:35 | <@Reiv> | https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/10/24/oz_spent_700k_to_decide_that_blockchain_isnt_worth_the_hype/ |
| 00:41 | <@celmin|away> | Heh. I think I saw that earlier actually. |
| 00:41 | <@celmin|away> | There was someone on Twitter saying there's at most three or four applications that truly justify a blockchain (currency being one of them). |
| 00:42 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
| 00:42 | <@celmin|away> | Perhaps I should say "truly might justify", not sure if she was definite about it. |
| 00:42 | <@Reiv> | Currency is a terrible use for it, though |
| 00:43 | <@Reiv> | You end up just running bidding wars on national electricity networks and hardware investments to make sure no-one else monopolises it |
| 00:43 | <@celmin|away> | Well, I don't like the idea of cryptocurrencies in general so... |
| 00:43 | <@Reiv> | The whole point of fiat money is that it's worth more than the paper it's printed on (and electronic equivalents thereof); pegging the currency to the price of electricity is terrible. |
| 00:43 | <@celmin|away> | It feels like a solution to the wrong problem. |
| 00:44 | <@Reiv> | And the only way to *avoid* that happening is to have a verifiably trustworthy source managing the chain |
| 00:44 | <@Reiv> | ... at which point why are you using a chain |
| 00:44 | <@celmin|away> | I read an article a few days ago that suggests some cryptocurrencies aren't as bad about that as BitCoin is. |
| 00:44 | <@celmin|away> | The price of electricity thing I mean. |
| 00:44 | <@Reiv> | Is there any mathematical reason why this is not 'because not enough people care to optimise it yet' |
| 00:44 | <@celmin|away> | I don't know anything about other ccs so I dunno. |
| 00:44 | <@celmin|away> | Hm? |
| 00:44 | <@Reiv> | Like |
| 00:45 | <@celmin|away> | Why aren't they as bad, do you mean? |
| 00:45 | <@Reiv> | Is there some mathemetical, algorathmic reason they cannot become so bad |
| 00:45 | <@Reiv> | Like, bitcoin is bad because it is the most popular |
| 00:45 | <@celmin|away> | Probably easier to just link the article: https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/10/12/bitcoin-must-die/?share=twitter&nb=1 |
| 00:45 | <@celmin|away> | I think that's the one, at least. |
| 00:45 | | * celmin|away clicks to check. |
| 00:45 | <@celmin|away> | Yeah it's the one but that's the wrong link XD |
| 00:45 | <@Reiv> | If another of these were to take its place, are the others engineered such that they don't simply become the same |
| 00:46 | <@Reiv> | lol |
| 00:46 | <@celmin|away> | https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/10/12/bitcoin-must-die/ |
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| 07:47 | <@ErikMesoy> | Reiv: Have you considered that some people do not like that aspect of fiat money? |
| 08:01 | <&Reiver> | ErikMesoy: While I will grant you that this aspect of fiat money can be problematic, it is not solved by setting wealth on fire in the name of proving you had it |
| 08:01 | <&Reiver> | (And it is problematic, but the gold standard is even worse, and we don't have anything else yet, sooo) |
| 08:06 | <@ErikMesoy> | Reiver: I feel like you're taking a hell of a lot of assumptions for granted here. |
| 08:08 | <&Reiver> | That the value of bitcoin is garnered primarily by wasting a huge amount of electricity? |
| 08:08 | <@ErikMesoy> | For example. |
| 08:08 | <&Reiver> | And yes, it is wasting, because you didn't get anything useful out of it beyond the bitcoin |
| 08:08 | <@ErikMesoy> | The bitcoin users disagree. |
| 08:08 | <&Reiver> | At orders of magnitude worse than other equivalent electronic commerce systems. |
| 08:09 | <&Reiver> | This is indeed why I argue bitcoin makes terrible money. |
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| 08:10 | <@ErikMesoy> | I have to go to work shortly, but TL;DR you seem to have conflated "money" in the abstract with "the sort of money that my governments and economists like". |
| 08:11 | <@ErikMesoy> | I don't even use bitcoin, this isn't my circus, but I still feel there's too little acknowledgement that bitcoin tries to be/do something else and of course it's going to fail if you measure it by fiat money standards, it's not *trying* for those standards |
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| 08:29 | <&Reiver> | I am arguing that it is a *terrible form* of money |
| 08:29 | <&Reiver> | I am not arguing Fiat is perfect, but I am arguing money that exists because we waste energy on making an electronic record is worse than fiat and gold combined |
| 08:30 | <&Reiver> | (And I mean waste as in 'unessisarily large amounts', I don't mind the concept of electronic commerce, here) |
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| 13:25 | <@celmin|sleep> | ErikMesoy: Yeah BitCoin is trying to be different, but that doesn't change the fact that its proof of work is utterly worthless. If it's important it was the idea it brought forward, allowing other cryptocurrencies to improve on it. |
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| 14:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also, the fact that bitcoin transaction processing is tied to the proof of work system means that it is, by design, incapable of handling the transaction rates that would make it actually useful as money, i.e. something you can exchange for goods and/or services. |
| 14:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | Proof of Storage might be better but no-one's gotten it working yet. |
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| 18:14 | <&McMartin> | Re: The wasting of electricity being intrinsic: This is, for all practical purposes, the price of forgery and as such it's so intrinsic that without it it cannot function and collapses into fradulent transactions |
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| 21:13 | <&McMartin> | 06:19 <@TheWatcher> McMartin: the mac in my office is running 10.13.6 |
| 21:14 | <&McMartin> | As it happens, the tests I ran started passing once I ran it on Mojave but with brew not installed |
| 21:14 | <&McMartin> | So, once again, brew is only OK if you want to run CLI unix tools and never run anything else on that Mac. >_< |
| 21:14 | <@TheWatcher> | XD |
| 21:14 | <@TheWatcher> | Awesome. |
| 21:14 | <&McMartin> | I'm not sure exactly when it became the case that running CLI Unix tools got easier on Windows than Mac, overall |
| 21:15 | <&McMartin> | But it was somewhere in the past three years |
| 21:15 | <&McMartin> | (The Metal driver still doesn't work, but there's a bunch of posts in the SDL Development forums about how the Metal drivers are incorrect and 2.0.8 was the first release of the driver in any form so, you know, sure) |
| 21:16 | <&McMartin> | \m/ |
| 21:20 | <&McMartin> | I also wish I knew why the issues I had with brew programs were so frickin' wacky |
| 21:21 | <&McMartin> | I'm getting massive distortion in SDL2, which I attribute to it somehow misusing the high-dpi options/api at the macOS level |
| 21:21 | <&McMartin> | But, like, *libpng* was corrupting the images we needed in UQM, resulting in stars that had their centers torn out |
| 21:24 | <@TheWatcher> | O.o |
| 21:24 | <@TheWatcher> | Howthewhat |
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| 21:27 | <&McMartin> | I never figured this out |
| 21:28 | <&McMartin> | Indeed, it took me five years of occasional pokery and experimentation to realize brew was to blame |
| 21:28 | <&McMartin> | A complete purge and then rebuild of all dependencies from scratch solved the problem |
| 21:29 | | * TheWatcher headdesk at UI design |
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| --- Log closed Fri Oct 26 00:00:16 2018 |