| --- Log opened Tue Nov 01 00:00:27 2016 |
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| 01:34 | <&Derakon> | http://imgur.com/gallery/Zj65I |
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| 14:17 | <&[R]> | https://kernsec.org/wiki/index.php/Kernel_Self_Protection_Project |
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| 17:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Eugh. Why does every scripting language suck. -.- |
| 17:29 | <@Tarinaky> | *shakes fist* |
| 17:30 | <@celticminstrel> | I dunno about that. |
| 17:33 | <@Tarinaky> | Ruby is kinda slow in my experience, and has horrible monkey-patching. Python has terrible multicore support and is slow. |
| 17:33 | <@Tarinaky> | Haskell has a crap standard library. |
| 17:34 | <@Tarinaky> | And Perl would require me to learn perl... |
| 17:36 | <@Tarinaky> | Current workflow at work proceeds as: 1) Get given unpleasant task. 2) Write script to automate unpleasant task. 3) People want to use script so unpleasant task can be performed as part of CI 4) Script takes 4 hours to complete unpleasant task; requires optimisation. 5) Howl into the Abyss. |
| 17:37 | <@celticminstrel> | Your reasoning for Perl needs work. :P |
| 17:38 | <@Azash> | "This scripting language is slow" generally is a cop-out |
| 17:38 | <@celticminstrel> | But when you said scripting languages I was actually thinking of JS and Lua. (And Python, so we had one in common.) |
| 17:38 | <@Tarinaky> | To be honest, Python is the only one I've actually attempted to get any kind of performance out of. |
| 17:38 | <@Azash> | Are you doing the right things? Should this thing be done? Should this thing be done in a different way? Should this thing be done out of its time box? Should this thing be done in a different system? Is there anything ineffective about the thing's workflow? |
| 17:39 | <@Tarinaky> | The major Ruby project had some performance issues - but SOP for solving those was to just write a C module and then glue it back together. |
| 17:39 | | * [R] was doing heavy mathin Python. After 30 hours Python version wasn't done. Rewrote in C, finished in under an hour. |
| 17:39 | <@Tarinaky> | I'd be happy enough with Python's performance except for the fact Multiprocessing and Lazy-Evaluation both kinda suck. |
| 17:39 | <@Tarinaky> | In the language |
| 17:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Because they seem to be mutually exclusive. |
| 17:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Also: writing a script to perform an unpleasant task is itself an unpleasant task. |
| 17:41 | <@Tarinaky> | So the reason for not using C is self-evident. |
| 17:41 | <@Tarinaky> | Speeeeeeed~ |
| 17:57 | < catadroid> | Amphetamines? |
| 17:59 | <~Vornicus> | what kind of task are you doing with this script |
| 18:00 | <@Tarinaky> | Testing. |
| 18:01 | <@Tarinaky> | Invoking a program a million times on some input files, capturing std out as a log file and then performing magic on the log files. |
| 18:02 | <&[R]> | Sounds like you need a practical extraction and reporting language |
| 18:04 | <@Tarinaky> | You're probably rihgt. |
| 18:05 | | * Vornicus facepalms |
| 18:07 | <@Tamber> | or a pathologically eclectic rubbish-lister. |
| 18:14 | <@Tarinaky> | (I got it first time ty) |
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| 19:51 | | * Vornicus , at a loss for manually correcting data, and unable to locate the dat ain the thing the normal way, goes all bible code on the pokemon blue rom. |
| 19:54 | <&[R]> | Bible code? |
| 19:56 | <@abudhabi> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Brown ? |
| 19:56 | <~Vornicus> | book some years back that insisted that all major events were prophesied in the bible in a particular way: specifically, you could find words in the kjv bible using various stride lengths between characters, and words associated with prophecy would cross. |
| 19:56 | <~Vornicus> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Code_(book) |
| 19:57 | <~Vornicus> | I'm looking to rip particular data (because pulling it from bulbapedia is tedious because it has to account for many generations, etc etc), and I can't find it straight up. |
| 20:00 | <~Vornicus> | so now I'm preparing to seek the file with known data with different stride lengths between the known bytes to see if I can find it |
| 20:00 | <&McMartin> | So you're bruteforcing structure size and alignment, you're saying |
| 20:00 | <~Vornicus> | Yes. |
| 20:00 | <~Vornicus> | --and hoping that it's actually constant size. the learnsets & evolutions aren't, but were not that hard to find. |
| 20:00 | <&McMartin> | You may need a supply of grumblecakes |
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| 20:02 | <&McMartin> | also re: The Bible Code, http://users.cecs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/codes/moby.html is a fun little system |
| 20:02 | <@gnolam> | ... was just about to post that :D |
| 20:05 | <&McMartin> | "A note to the credulous: It has come to my attention that some people have taken this page as claiming that Moby Dick really predicted the assassinations of famous people. Please be assured that none of these patterns happened by other than pure random chance." |
| 20:11 | <~Vornicus> | --nope, not found. fuuuuuu |
| 20:11 | <&McMartin> | Only liars and thieves like the Bible Code, and those people go to prison |
| 20:12 | <&McMartin> | I am not sure why I have ancient Internet meme jingles stuck in my head today |
| 20:19 | | * Vornicus definitely doesn't know where to find it. Has half a mind to go through and label shit in the dump but that will run him out of patience. There's tile maps and scripts and actual code and string stores and and and and and in there |
| 20:21 | <~Vornicus> | I remember doing that with the save file for king's bounty and that was a pain in the ass too |
| 20:21 | <&McMartin> | I remember being cranky when we optimized KB's really long setup time to something that only had, like, 400 operations |
| 20:22 | <~Vornicus> | To be fair we only did one bit. |
| 20:22 | <&[R]> | Weird for old games to be inefficient with operations. |
| 20:22 | <&McMartin> | You'd be surprised |
| 20:23 | <&McMartin> | Also, of course |
| 20:23 | <&McMartin> | It has to take long enough to let you read the load screen, because it had the best load screen in the history of load screens. |
| 20:24 | <&McMartin> | http://lparchive.org/Kings-Bounty/Update%202/2-LPKB0007.jpg |
| 20:26 | <~Vornicus> | (for those play8ing the home game: the original King's Bounty had 14 spells and 26 towns; each town has a random spell that one can buy, but each spell *must* appear at least once. iirc the disassembly for that part suggested that what it was doing was generating a random spell list and then retrying?) |
| 20:26 | <&McMartin> | (Something like that) |
| 20:29 | <~Vornicus> | (anyway this only works one time in like 15.) |
| 20:32 | <~Vornicus> | There are then other operations that I also suspect are similarly problematic - game has to, among other things, spread out treasure, which among other things include two artifacts and a map revealer per continent each of which is unique |
| 20:33 | <&McMartin> | However, IIRC, all other treasures are determined randomly at pickup time, becuase that LP found that treasures would replace themselves with crap on reload-and-recapture |
| 20:34 | <&McMartin> | Oh, except some treasures are recruitable monster armies |
| 20:34 | <~Vornicus> | well, pickupable treasures; there's also monster armies that you can recruit (also randomly) and monster dwellings a la KB's successor Heros of Might and Magic |
| 20:35 | <&McMartin> | Oh right, dwellings exist in treasure locations |
| 20:36 | <~Vornicus> | ..heh. a thing that shoes up often in freenode #math is a thing called HoTT: Homotopy of Type Theory, but I keep thinking it's Heroes of (something?) instead |
| 20:36 | <&McMartin> | Town and Castle locations and identities were both fixed, right? |
| 20:37 | <~Vornicus> | Town and Caslte locations and identities and links between (Towns will give info on the dwellers in specific castles) are all fixed. |
| 20:38 | <&McMartin> | It's specifically the castle whose name starts with the same letter as the town |
| 20:38 | <~Vornicus> | Not true. |
| 20:38 | <&McMartin> | Which is why you have, e.g., Castle Zzyzzerzaz. |
| 20:38 | <&McMartin> | Oh? |
| 20:39 | <~Vornicus> | Each castle started with a different letter, and each town started with a different letter, but for instance Hunterville was connected with Castle Vutar. |
| 20:39 | <&McMartin> | Maybe just towards the end when they clearly couldn't be arsed to have real names~ |
| 20:40 | <~Vornicus> | zyzzarzazz/zaezoizu I believe was the only pairing that actually matched starting letters. |
| 20:41 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey, OK, I misremembered which towns were in Saharia, also |
| 20:42 | <~Vornicus> | One thing I was thinking about when I was fucking around with Realm's Ransom was how to procgen lands and stuff. |
| 20:43 | <~Vornicus> | You know I've done many many things but I always seem to stumble when it comes to, for instance, drawing stuff to screen |
| 20:44 | <&McMartin> | I thought Vornball was drawing stuff now |
| 20:45 | <~Vornicus> | Barely. |
| 20:46 | <~Vornicus> | And then I got grumped because I don't want to write physics because it's fuckin' impossible and I don't have any idea how to use existing physics engines either, not that I wanted to do that because it can't do the things I want it to do. |
| 20:49 | <&McMartin> | Have you seen the Sonic physics page? |
| 20:50 | <&McMartin> | It cheats, but maybe you can cheat in similar ways. |
| 20:50 | <~Vornicus> | Eh. At this point the problem is "I have half a dozen functions that I have to call in different situations and dispatching is annoying" |
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| 20:52 | <~Vornicus> | And a lot of "I don't know how to organize large pieces of code in general" |
| 20:54 | <~Vornicus> | Which has been a problem for years and years and years and it's something that it feels like - unlike so many other things - I'm not allowed to get wrong. |
| 20:57 | <~Vornicus> | Which is very frustrating. |
| 20:58 | <&McMartin> | Mmm. Like, modularization? |
| 21:01 | <~Vornicus> | modluarization, setup for both my own libraries and others', etc, etc, etc. |
| 21:04 | <~Vornicus> | It seems like the only place I can have organized code in general is in frameworks that actually try to enforce it. |
| 21:05 | <&McMartin> | Hmmm |
| 21:06 | <&McMartin> | I wonder if that's something that can be drilled |
| 21:09 | <~Vornicus> | Part of the problem is that there are quite a few answers |
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| 22:08 | < ToxicFrog> | I've just accepted that my organization will always be wrong and hope that with practice it gets less wrong |
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| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | It's kind of funny |
| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | I've been looking through some of my juvenilia lately because I found it |
| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | And it turns out that my design sensibility in Pascal was quite a bit more solid than it was in C. |
| 23:26 | <@simon_> | are you implying something? |
| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | ... what is it you think I might be implying? |
| 23:27 | <&McMartin> | I'm grading, as an adult, 14-year-old me's homework assignments |
| 23:27 | <@simon_> | you actually had programming homework at 14? |
| 23:27 | <@simon_> | maybe that Pascal as a language supplies the programmer with a more solid framework to work within. |
| 23:29 | <&McMartin> | Well, it *does*, in the sense of "more structured", but C traditions mimic what Pascal enforces |
| 23:29 | <&McMartin> | And I wasn't following those traditions then, so that might be part of it, but even correcting for that I'm not dividing functions into files as sensibly, etc. |
| 23:48 | <&McMartin> | Also, yes: as a child of the 80s in a reasonably-well-funded school, we had computer lab pretty early on and an actual (albeit one and a half classes worth of) comp sci/programming curriculum |
| 23:48 | <&McMartin> | And because I am Old, Pascal served the role that Java does now. |
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| 23:55 | <&McMartin> | And because I am insane, I went and tied the standard modern x86 assembler into both the Pascal and C toolkits I had back then, and got it to work |
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| 23:55 | <&McMartin> | And it turns out Pascal's easier to interface with *there* too, at least in terms of getting stuff to link properly |
| 23:56 | <&McMartin> | But that's due to them solving slightly different problems |
| 23:56 | | * Vornicus is linked to http://gameprogrammingpatterns.com/ |
| 23:56 | <&McMartin> | Nice |
| 23:57 | <&McMartin> | That's got some of the deeper madness too, where you have crazy C/Asm hackers knowing a trick and ivory-tower dudes knowing it and nobody in between |
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| --- Log closed Wed Nov 02 00:00:43 2016 |