| --- Log opened Mon Jul 11 00:00:07 2016 |
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| 00:23 | <&Derakon> | I should probably be experimenting with more languages. |
| 00:23 | <&Derakon> | I just have trouble motivating myself when I don't have a Project, and I have too many non-coding projects to want to start a coding one right now. |
| 00:23 | < catadroid> | I am lost |
| 00:23 | < catadroid> | I'm now one of Them |
| 00:23 | <&Derakon> | (And have been so overloaded for, uh, years) |
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| 04:32 | <&McMartin> | Man, look at me, writing component tests like a grownup |
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| 05:21 | < catadroid`> | Gosh |
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| 07:13 | <&McMartin> | Also, I have run afoul of Rust's lack of higher-order kinds |
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| 08:44 | < catalyst> | yay |
| 08:44 | < catalyst> | today's fun with macros has led to http://paste.ofcode.org/dvpbLi29Jn4Vp7nuEkWKHH |
| 08:46 | <~Vornicus> | WAT |
| 08:48 | < catalyst> | WAT |
| 08:48 | < catalyst> | which I think is quite concise |
| 08:49 | < catalyst> | :thing val expands to (. setThing instance val), :+ expands to (.. getChildren (add val)) and :foo/bar expands to (Foo/Bar instance val) |
| 08:49 | < catalyst> | So it looks a lot like the FXML that would build the same thing |
| 08:50 | < catalyst> | I suppose I should go to work |
| 08:50 | < catalyst> | BUT THIS IS SO FUN X_X |
| 08:50 | <~Vornicus> | "can't get paid to code, having too much fun with code" |
| 08:50 | < catalyst> | haven't enjoyed something this much in a long time |
| 08:50 | < catalyst> | haha yeah |
| 08:50 | < catalyst> | my life |
| 08:50 | < catalyst> | Ladies and gentlemans |
| 08:55 | < catalyst> | Also, unlike my first attempt, this one compiles. |
| 08:55 | <~Vornicus> | woot |
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| 09:02 | <&McMartin> | Meanwhile, I have written a lexer for C64 tokenized BASIC programs in Rust, and also created a terrifying test suite for it. |
| 09:05 | <&McMartin> | The lexer's test suite is about the size of the lexer, and it would probably be smaller if it didn't embed nineteen programs as vectors of decimal integers for potted input to the lexer subsystem. |
| 09:07 | <&McMartin> | My tests even found a bug! |
| 09:07 | <&McMartin> | The lexer would go into an infinite loop if it tried to lex a DATA statement that included a negative number outside of a string. |
| 09:08 | <&McMartin> | (DATA statements require special handling anyway which my lexer currently does not handle, but that's a TODO for now because I'm not sure how I really want to roll with that) |
| 09:10 | <&McMartin> | I had managed to write about 3/5s of a C64 BASIC compiler in Scheme years ago, but the architecture started to collapse in on itself. I'm trying to shift it to Rust to see if that will give it sturdy enough bones to finish the job. |
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| 10:13 | < catadroid> | Send help I'm starting to think that Greenspun's tenth rule is onto something |
| 10:14 | <@TheWatcher> | Corollary: Including Common Lisp~ |
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| 10:29 | < catadroid> | Quite x) |
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| 11:23 | < catadroid> | My favourite killer feature when it comes to C++ is completely superceded by simple LISP macros in a nicer fashion |
| 11:29 | <@simon_> | catadroid, what's that? |
| 11:29 | <~Vornicus> | data statements I've always found weird |
| 11:29 | <@simon_> | my favourite killer features are static types, type inference and algebraic types. |
| 11:33 | < catadroid> | My favourite feature of C++ (and there's some competition) is how you can abstract scoped operations with destructors |
| 11:35 | | * Vornicus tries to think of features he would call "favorite" for anything. |
| 11:35 | < catadroid> | Largely because it's something that got lost by managed languages when they embraced garbage collection as part of their object models |
| 11:48 | < catadroid> | Fair, Vorn. I suppose I mean 'most helpful in my engineering context' |
| 12:03 | <~Vornicus> | "frozenset" |
| 12:04 | < catadroid> | A unique, unordered container for royal sisters |
| 12:06 | <~Vornicus> | just enough off the beaten path that I can't take it for granted but I use it heavily. THough this is partly because I'm a mathematician |
| 12:17 | < catadroid> | I think you would enjoy clojure |
| 12:19 | <@simon_> | Vornicus, frozensets are immutable sets? |
| 12:20 | < catadroid> | It appears do |
| 12:20 | < catadroid> | So* |
| 12:20 | <~Vornicus> | yep. they're in python; I use them a lot so I can do crazy things like -- I built a klotski solver, and the board states are frozensets, so I can detect which states I've already seen |
| 12:22 | < catadroid> | Hurray for snapshots |
| 12:22 | <@simon_> | Vornicus, I'm a pretty big fan of sets, too. Haskell's IntSets, Bloom filters, etc. |
| 12:23 | <@simon_> | Haskell's IntTrees appear to be a kind of radix tree. |
| 12:23 | <@simon_> | patricia |
| 12:23 | <@simon_> | whoops. |
| 12:29 | <~Vornicus> | I find I don't often use the ineresting, uh, language features |
| 12:31 | <@simon_> | I often use them. but it hardly reflects on my productivity. :P |
| 12:31 | <~Vornicus> | I look at the shit in ES6 -- Javascript is one of my big languages because i'm a web dev -- and I go "how the shit would I ever use this" |
| 12:34 | <@simon_> | haven't looked much at ES6 yet. I thought it was mainly 'adding classes, removing wrinkles' |
| 12:35 | <~Vornicus> | 'course, I can't use a lot of it anyway |
| 12:36 | <@simon_> | heh. stuff like 'block-scoped function definitions' so you don't have to (function() { ... })(); |
| 12:36 | <~Vornicus> | The huge problem with webdev is you sit there and the specs have all this shit that was added like 10 years ago that you *still fucking can't use* because IE9 doesn't have it |
| 12:36 | <~Vornicus> | So direct approach it is |
| 12:37 | <@simon_> | I thought that was why they invented polyfill? |
| 12:37 | <~Vornicus> | only goes so far |
| 12:40 | <~Vornicus> | polyfills get you new functions, and some other things, but they can't do, for instance -- I can't use html templates because they don't exist in IE until Edge 13. I couldn't use css flex until recently because ie9 doesn't have it. Websockets aren't in ie9 either. |
| 12:40 | <@simon_> | my friend Guan used to introduce "Microsoft-Free Friday" on his (and my) personal homepages when we were pre-teens. basically it'd check if $USER_AGENT =~ /MSIE/ and break on fridays. |
| 12:41 | <@simon_> | Vornicus, ah. |
| 12:41 | <@simon_> | Vornicus, right. |
| 12:41 | <@simon_> | Vornicus, so you're stuck doing entirely different things. |
| 12:42 | <@simon_> | it's impressive how much tech debt microsoft introduced on behalf of everyone when making such crappy browsers. |
| 12:42 | <~Vornicus> | And while IE is a major offendor |
| 12:42 | <~Vornicus> | This isn't to say they're the only ones! |
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| 12:44 | < catadroid> | Javascript is the result of shoddy process |
| 12:44 | < catadroid> | Browsers evolve in the very traditional sense of the word |
| 12:47 | <~Vornicus> | Safari's problematic in a lot of ways. I can't use PNGs as favicons 'cause they won't work on safari mobile, for instance |
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| 12:48 | <@TheWatcher> | Apple's a pain in the arse in general |
| 12:50 | <@TheWatcher> | (see also: apple touch icons) |
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| 13:20 | < ToxicFrog> | Of course, these days, you can write all your javascript in clojure~ |
| 13:48 | <@abudhabi> | http://uniqcode.com/typewriter/ |
| 13:48 | < catadroid> | Hehe yus |
| 13:53 | <~Vornicus> | D: |
| 13:53 | <~Vornicus> | that is *terrible* and I am glad I don't have to put up with input rate limits |
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| 19:57 | <@abudhabi> | Whenever I've the feeling of getting mad at users for cluelessness with computers, I should remember that I am also an idiot - with cars. |
| 19:58 | <@abudhabi> | It's just the same. You're a proficient *user* of the device, but when it stops reacting the way you expect it to - for reasons completely opaque - it's the same situation. |
| 19:59 | <@abudhabi> | I don't expect myself to be a mechanic capable of determining that the car stopping to work in the middle of the road for no reason and failing to go again is because I never replaced the transmission belt since the car was bought. |
| 20:00 | <@abudhabi> | Neither should I expect a random computer user to have spent thousands of hours working with computers and to be capable of diagnosing their magical abnormalities. |
| 20:00 | <@Tamber> | DAF Variomatic? Rubber band transmissions! \o/ |
| 20:01 | <@abudhabi> | You may as well be speaking Chinese. |
| 20:02 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 20:02 | <@Tamber> | Dutch, actually. ;) |
| 20:25 | <@gnolam> | abudhabi: But: if the "Oil" light goes on in your car, do you a) Check the oil b) Check the manual for what you should do when that light turns on (then do what it says) c) Take the car to the manufacturer (or even better: some other random manufacturer) and yell IT'S BROKEN! |
| 20:25 | <@gnolam> | I' |
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| 20:26 | <@gnolam> | I'm perfectly ok with being clueless. What pisses me off is wilful ignorance and refusal to read even the simplest of instructions. |
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| 20:27 | <@abudhabi> | The manual is a full-length book. I do not have 12 hours spare time to leaf through it when the car breaks down. I want it working ASAP. |
| 20:27 | <@gnolam> | The manual has an index. |
| 20:28 | <@abudhabi> | Probably. And many problems are obscure enough that troubleshooting without prior experience is not going to achieve much. |
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| 20:33 | <@gnolam> | This is not an obscure problem. This is not a breakdown. This is the oil light going oin. |
| 20:33 | <@gnolam> | -i |
| 20:33 | <@abudhabi> | And it's not the sort of obscure problem I'm talking about. |
| 20:33 | <@abudhabi> | Cars, just like computers, have the ability to stop working in mysterious ways, with no indication of what's wrong. |
| 20:35 | <&[R]> | I'm with abudhabi here. |
| 20:35 | <@gnolam> | So why did you answer like it was then? |
| 20:35 | <&[R]> | Low-tire light comes on. Check manual. Fill tires. Light stays on. Return to vendor. Vendor says computer was confused, and expecting non-correct values. |
| 20:38 | <@Tamber> | ...or you've filled the wrong tyre right to OMGWTFBBQ because the tyres had been rotated, and the TPMS hadn't been updated with their new positions~ |
| 20:41 | <@abudhabi> | gnolam: We're talking about different kinds of things. |
| 20:41 | <@abudhabi> | You're talking about stuff that might be conceivably inexcusable to fail. |
| 20:41 | <@gnolam> | And your answer was that it was in fact excusable. |
| 20:43 | <@abudhabi> | It can be. "Something wrong with the oil" is about as helpful to a typical user as "something wrong with the disk". |
| 21:00 | < ASCII> | If you are sitting at a computer, complaining to people via the internet, that implies that you have access to google. |
| 21:00 | < ASCII> | This is often not the case when your car is dead in the middle of the night on a lonely highway. |
| 21:05 | <@ion> | As a random user of computers who has spent years of uncounted hours trying to get my bearings straight, I'll just insert that I am completely frustrated by my inability to diagnose the magical abnormalities I encounter |
| 21:16 | | * TheWatcher readsup |
| 21:17 | <@TheWatcher> | The one that really gets me in cars is the "Check Engine" light. It doesn't go off when you open the hood, make sure the engine is there, and close it again~ |
| 21:19 | <@Tamber> | hee |
| 21:19 | <@TheWatcher> | (and not many people actually own a ODB2 connector or ELM327) |
| 21:23 | <&Derakon> | Not that the diagnostic codes those things give you are necessarily helpful either. |
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| 21:46 | < ASCII> | My car's check engine light is, as far as I can tell, hooked up to a random number generator |
| 21:46 | < ASCII> | It goes on and off as it pleases. |
| 21:47 | < ASCII> | Almost like it's going, 'hey baby, check out this engine that is currently operating completely normally!' |
| 21:49 | <@TheWatcher> | Obviously your engine may or may not have been made in Prague. |
| 21:52 | <@TheWatcher> | (don't think about it too hard, it's a terrible pun) |
| 22:00 | < ASCII> | I'll take you on your word; I know europe on such things. |
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| 23:07 | <@gnolam> | https://twitter.com/mitsuhiko/status/752398314528731137 |
| 23:19 | < ASCII> | haha |
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| --- Log closed Tue Jul 12 00:00:23 2016 |