| --- Log opened Thu Jul 07 00:00:03 2016 |
| 00:20 | | crystalclaw|AFK is now known as crystalclaw |
| 00:41 | | Shadeaway is now known as Shady |
| 00:52 | < catalyst> | I want to show off a thing wot I did, so I will - http://paste.ofcode.org/jQTKHBkP842aj5v9hTgx66 |
| 00:54 | < catalyst> | (It's not that special, but I learned a lot already just translating from Java to clojure) |
| 00:55 | < catalyst> | The function naming thing was, incidentally, to give anonymous functions names anyway, because it makes stack traces much easier to grok |
| 00:55 | < catalyst> | clojure.core=> (fn []) |
| 00:55 | < catalyst> | #object[clojure.core$eval5453$fn__5454 0x4d4295cd "clojure.core$eval5453$fn__5454@4d4295cd"] |
| 00:55 | < catalyst> | clojure.core=> (fn hello-there []) |
| 00:55 | < catalyst> | #object[clojure.core$eval5457$hello_there__5458 0x5b72b53d "clojure.core$eval5457$hello_there__5458@5b72b53d"] |
| 00:56 | < catalyst> | ^ the name hello_there is included in the IFn implementation class generated for the second instance |
| 01:06 | <@Reiv> | So that's naming each function call? |
| 01:16 | < ToxicFrog> | catalyst: I didn't realize you could name "anonymous" functions like that! Neat. |
| 01:16 | < ToxicFrog> | Reiv: it's naming each function, even ones that don't have a associated var or binding |
| 01:17 | < ToxicFrog> | i.e. "anonymous" functions |
| 01:17 | <@Reiv> | oh right |
| 01:17 | <@Reiv> | Thta does sound clever |
| 01:20 | < catalyst> | clojure implements functions as runtime anonymous classes that implement its IFn interface to be called |
| 01:20 | < catalyst> | so the fn macro always has the option of having a name |
| 01:20 | < catalyst> | and the anonymous class will be named after that, if supplied, otherwise it's just some name with fn in it |
| 01:21 | < catalyst> | So you can track anonymous lambdas in callstacks by naming them |
| 01:21 | < ToxicFrog> | My general approach for that has been (let [foo (fn [] ...)], which I think is strictly worse since the binding isn't reflected in the IFn itself |
| 01:21 | < ToxicFrog> | That would have saved me so much debugging time a year ago~ |
| 01:22 | < catalyst> | :d |
| 01:22 | | * catalyst finds abstracting clojure really easy |
| 01:23 | < catalyst> | Also, Nightcode is a nice little editor |
| 01:26 | | crystalclaw is now known as crystalclaw|AFK |
| 01:40 | <&McMartin> | catalyst: It's kind of experimental and wacky but Light Table was built around Clojure originally and it's got some cool computation-simulation aspects |
| 01:41 | < catalyst> | I took a look at it earlier, decided I can only learn so much at once and left it be |
| 01:41 | < catalyst> | It seemed kind of impenetrable |
| 01:42 | < catalyst> | Nightcode has a REPL running and buttons with names like Run, Build and Test on them |
| 01:42 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 01:42 | <&McMartin> | I haven't heard of Nightcode |
| 01:42 | | * McMartin puts it on The List |
| 01:42 | | * McMartin also prepares to grab a copy of Rust for this system, notices that 1.10 drops tomorrow, puts off this task. |
| 01:42 | < catalyst> | Light Table struck me as one of those trying-to-be-too-clever Haskell-like things |
| 01:43 | <&McMartin> | It was a KS by an ex-MSVS guy explicitly to try out some too-clever things :) |
| 01:43 | < catalyst> | :) |
| 01:43 | <&McMartin> | I backed them not because I wanted the project but because I enjoy mad science |
| 01:43 | < catalyst> | KS? |
| 01:43 | < catalyst> | oh |
| 01:43 | <&McMartin> | Kickstarter |
| 01:43 | < catalyst> | kickstarter |
| 01:43 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 01:43 | < catalyst> | (jinx) |
| 01:43 | | * McMartin owes catalyst a Coke |
| 01:43 | <@Reiv> | so |
| 01:43 | < catalyst> | sew |
| 01:43 | <@Reiv> | How did that work out anyway |
| 01:44 | <@Reiv> | Or rather: is it working out, I guess~ |
| 01:44 | <&McMartin> | Which, Clojure or Light Table? |
| 01:44 | <&McMartin> | Light Table ended up with a working-ish product, but it's... hm |
| 01:44 | <&McMartin> | ... it's more vi than Notepad++, shall we say |
| 01:44 | < catalyst> | It's as intuitive as playing tennis with a baboon |
| 01:56 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: ... vi does not seem the intended design goal of the initial looks |
| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | Reiv: Correct |
| 01:57 | <&McMartin> | I meant in terms of learning curve |
| 01:57 | <&McMartin> | The core gimmick is "interactive REPL, but you can see intermediate values as the computation evolves" |
| 01:57 | <&McMartin> | That's a trick that IMO works far better for a functional language like Clojure than anything else, but I also got the impression that the people that really got interested in the project and started pushing with it were Javascripters |
| 01:58 | | * Reiv nods |
| 01:59 | <&McMartin> | Which *can* do stuff like that if you use those patterns |
| 01:59 | <&McMartin> | So I dunno |
| 01:59 | <&McMartin> | Most of my systems actually don't have Java installed on them at all, which complicates Clojure as a thing :) |
| 02:00 | <@Reiv> | it's funny how as Java has become the ultimate run anywhere |
| 02:00 | <@Reiv> | Actual java installed on you PC has become increasingly ... hm |
| 02:03 | < catalyst> | :O |
| 02:03 | < catalyst> | I wrote a non-trivial macro! |
| 02:04 | < catalyst> | clojure also available in browser and .NET form I believe |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. I haven't checked in on Clojure in a long time, but back when I had (like, 1.4, gosh) those two technologies were far behind the others |
| 02:11 | < catalyst> | ...I predict that I will soon be doing some amazing things with clojure |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | Very cool |
| 02:20 | | * catalyst is currently de-javaing that tutorial code |
| 02:20 | < catalyst> | though I ought to at least go lie in bed |
| 02:42 | < ToxicFrog> | Now that .NET is open source it might gain ground on JRE some |
| 02:42 | | * ToxicFrog invites catalyst to join him in bed for cuddles and programming |
| 02:46 | < catalyst> | ! |
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| 02:52 | <@Reiv> | (Insert fork() pun here) |
| 02:57 | < catalyst> | hrnnngh |
| 02:57 | < catalyst> | I can't stop fiddling |
| 02:57 | < catalyst> | that's it |
| 02:57 | < catalyst> | I'm cutting me off |
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| 02:58 | | * ToxicFrog pulls catadroid into bed and cuddles her so tight she can't reach the keyboard |
| 03:03 | | crystalclaw|AFK is now known as crystalclaw |
| 03:03 | | * catadroid flaps |
| 03:03 | < catadroid> | Just one more macro I swear |
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| 03:22 | < ToxicFrog> | Noooooo |
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| 08:29 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 08:59 | <@simon_> | I'm going to copy 2TB from an old RAID to a new 24TB RAID. I assume that I can't just move the old two disks into my new RAID and expect the new RAID controller to happily take over. |
| 09:01 | <@simon_> | is there any smarter solution than to copy the files via a gigabit ethernet? and if not, what's the preferred file transfer protocol? (copy-pasting in explorer is horribly slow.) rsync? |
| 09:02 | <@simon_> | (source filesystem is NTFS with light compression, target filesystem is NTFS without.) |
| 09:09 | < Vornotron> | rsync is your bestest buddy. on gigabit it'll take -- well, you might be limited by drive speed, actually, depending |
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| 09:21 | | * TheWatcher seconds rsync, for it is made of awesome |
| 09:22 | <@simon_> | Vornotron, that's what I'm thinking. |
| 09:22 | <@simon_> | but rsync does not provide its own transfer protocol, does it? |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jul 07 10:45:53 2016 |
| --- Log opened Thu Jul 07 10:46:02 2016 |
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| 10:50 | < catadroid> | Realisation: I've been using C# named arguments as a poor subset of LISP macro capabilities |
| 10:50 | < catadroid> | Greenspun appears to have been correct. |
| --- Log closed Thu Jul 07 11:19:38 2016 |
| --- Log opened Thu Jul 07 11:19:47 2016 |
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| 12:09 | < catadroid> | OOP feels so backwards to me right now |
| 12:27 | <@simon_> | OOP always feels backwards to me. |
| 12:28 | <@Azash> | OOP has always felt very accessible to me |
| 12:28 | | * Azash runs |
| 12:28 | <@TheWatcher> | So it just feels like poo.... |
| 12:29 | <@simon_> | ha |
| 12:45 | < catadroid> | snrk |
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| 13:35 | < Emmy-werk> | Ah you just have to fucking love it when a language's reference gives you a valid syntax, and you C&P that exact syntax in your editor, and it goes 'Nope, not valid' |
| 13:40 | < Emmy-werk> | VBA is a sick, sick perverted language. |
| 13:43 | <@abudhabi> | Do you have the right version of the language? |
| 13:44 | < Emmy-werk> | I do. Trouble is that documentation for VBA is extremely hard to find. Often you ask for VBA and get VB instead |
| 13:45 | < Emmy-werk> | and sadly they are not the same thing. not by a wide margin |
| 13:48 | < Emmy-werk> | Basicallyy VBA is like VB like how a comatose person with four arms sewn to it and no legs, fingers or head is like a human. |
| 13:49 | < Emmy-werk> | Oh, and a green skin. |
| 13:50 | < Emmy-werk> | Sure, its' core functions the same way, and it has similar components, with some extra functions, but in other essential ways it functions completely differently, or is outright missing things. |
| 13:50 | < Emmy-werk> | case in point: Arrays, or file manipulation |
| 14:26 | <@abudhabi> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juno_%28spacecraft%29#Scientific_instruments <- It's as if I'm calibrating Gecko's power plant! :V |
| 14:34 | < Emmy-werk> | gecko's powerplant? |
| 14:40 | <@gnolam> | Fallout 2. |
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| 14:48 | | * Emmy-werk remains confused |
| 14:52 | <@abudhabi> | http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Solve_the_Gecko_powerplant_problem#Repair |
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| 14:56 | <@simon_> | "Incidentally, the order of commands is the same as the reverse order of the last 5 planets in the Solar System, before Pluto was declassified as a planet." |
| 14:57 | <@simon_> | that's a crazy plot scheme. reminds me of Sam & Max. |
| 14:57 | < Emmy-werk> | Aaaah. I think i get it now. |
| 14:59 | <@simon_> | abudhabi, OTOH, anyone who's played that game to its extent is surely qualified to navigate a spacecraft. :P |
| 14:59 | < Emmy-werk> | Nah. |
| 14:59 | < Emmy-werk> | However, KSP counts :P |
| 14:59 | <@simon_> | KSP? |
| 14:59 | <@simon_> | ah :) |
| 14:59 | < Emmy-werk> | Just never say 'But it works in KSP!' in a NASA meeting :P |
| 14:59 | < Emmy-werk> | Kerbal Space Program |
| 14:59 | <@simon_> | haha |
| 15:00 | <@simon_> | have you worked at NASA? |
| 15:00 | < Emmy-werk> | Nope |
| 15:00 | <@simon_> | I've a friend who interned at NASA, started on a programming language PhD, then ditched it all to make plugins for music programs. |
| 15:01 | < Emmy-werk> | https://www.xkcd.com/1244/ |
| 15:01 | < Emmy-werk> | waste :( |
| 15:05 | <@Azash> | simon_: Kudos to them |
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| 15:45 | < catadroid`> | Damn I'm doing that management thing again |
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| 15:46 | <@abudhabi> | Anger management? |
| 15:47 | < Emmy-werk> | Shitstorm management? |
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| 16:12 | < catadroid> | Badly, I think |
| 16:28 | < catadroid> | I just want to code LISP D: |
| 16:28 | < catadroid> | What's happening to me |
| 16:29 | < ToxicFrog> | joiiiiin ussssssss |
| 16:31 | | * pjdelport Haskells |
| 16:31 | <@pjdelport> | Leave your parens behind, a better world awaits~ |
| 16:32 | < catadroid> | Sadly it doesn't believe in the real world |
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| 16:35 | < catadroid> | There's too much syntax everywhere |
| 16:35 | < catadroid> | Make it go away |
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| 16:38 | < gizmore> | ruby fanboy to red leader, ruby fanboy to red leader... lisp grampa detected |
| 16:38 | < gizmore> | response takes a while |
| 16:41 | <@pjdelport> | (I love Scheme, for the record.) |
| 16:41 | < gizmore> | red leader threw an exception :( ... Scheme, eh? |
| 16:43 | < gizmore> | so... at work i invented "Hawking Icons" |
| 16:43 | <@pjdelport> | Yeah, Scheme is lovely. |
| 16:44 | < gizmore> | they are components, like mvc in one go |
| 16:44 | < ToxicFrog> | I fiddled with Scheme but never really accomplished anything with it. |
| 16:44 | < gizmore> | (an ios objective c view, with controller stuff) |
| 16:44 | < ToxicFrog> | Clojure is the only lisp I've actually been productive in. |
| 16:44 | < gizmore> | now i got reply from our designer and QA: "Hawking Icons look great" \o/ |
| 16:59 | < catadroid> | Hurray |
| 17:51 | | * simon_ wants to Haskells, but is stuck with an awesome job he can't quit. >_< |
| 17:52 | <@abudhabi> | They made you an offer you couldn't refuse? :V |
| 17:53 | <@simon_> | I just learn a lot, earn a lot, and don't have to talk to any customers. |
| 17:53 | <@simon_> | but I have to code C#. |
| 17:53 | <@gnolam> | I now envy you. I learn a lot, earn a lot, but I also have to talk to customers a lot.~ |
| 17:53 | <@simon_> | hehe |
| 17:54 | <@simon_> | this is a proprietary trading fund, so the closest thing to "customers" are whoever we make automated trades with. :P |
| 17:55 | <@simon_> | my idea for applying here was that I'd wanna code OCaml for Jane Street Capital, but wanted some experience first. |
| 17:55 | <@abudhabi> | I'm in a similar position to simon_. |
| 17:56 | <@simon_> | abudhabi, you wanna work for Jane Street, too? |
| 17:56 | <@gnolam> | (Ok, today was exceptional and I was prepared for it, but: I don't think I got more than 15 minutes of uninterrupted work today. >_<) |
| 17:56 | <@abudhabi> | simon_: Telecom corporation. Programming in Java. |
| 17:56 | <@simon_> | gnolam, wow, that sucks. |
| 17:56 | <@simon_> | abudhabi, ah. |
| 17:57 | <@abudhabi> | I'm not very passionate about programming (or anything, really). This job is just a stop-gap so I can go back home and start doing stuff that don't take up half of my waking life. |
| 17:57 | <@gnolam> | Could've been worse. I could've been doing this 20 years ago, without access to remote administration tools. Then I would have to fly down to each location to fix their issue instead of just TeamViewering in and diagnosing it.~ |
| 18:00 | <@simon_> | gnolam, who do you work for? |
| 18:03 | <@abudhabi> | Knowing Sweden, the Wallenbergs. |
| 18:03 | <@gnolam> | HAIL HYDRA! |
| 18:03 | <@gnolam> | ... oh, you meant like /work/ work for. |
| 18:03 | <@gnolam> | Disregard that then. >_> |
| 18:03 | <@gnolam> | ;-) |
| 18:04 | <@abudhabi> | Did you get the "look" yet, gnolam? :V |
| 18:05 | <@gnolam> | Software for the paint industry, basically. Bit of a generalization, but. Close enough. |
| 18:07 | <@gnolam> | Small, independent company. |
| 18:09 | <@gnolam> | With all that that entails in advantages and disadvantages. |
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| 18:45 | <@simon_> | that's nice, I guess. |
| 19:01 | <@gnolam> | The main upside is that I'm ridiculously free. The main downside is that I have to be a coder/project manager/salesman/support tech all rolled into one. |
| 19:05 | <@simon_> | yeah. that's what I came to realize if I went freelance with functional programming. I'd have customers. and I'd have to talk to them! |
| 19:06 | <@simon_> | maybe it's not so bad if you can pick your customers wisely. |
| 19:06 | <@simon_> | but I don't really have any business plans that let me do that. |
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| 20:16 | <&Derakon> | <user> "I can't do X." <me> "You can do X by Y." <user> "Is that documented anywhere?" <me> "Sure, here it is in the Javadocs we painstakingly wrote." <user> "That's impossible to find, I demand a custom article on the wiki targeting my specific use case." |
| 20:17 | <&Derakon> | (Javadocs are linked multiple times throughout the wiki) |
| 20:21 | < catadroid> | :| |
| 20:22 | <@ErikMesoy> | Compromise: Create a stub wiki page titled "How to do the thing" and have it consist of a link to the relevant javadoc. |
| 20:23 | < catadroid> | x) |
| 20:29 | <&Derakon> | Argh, I'm having trouble writing a non-snippy response on this publicly-accessible GitHub issue. |
| 20:29 | <&Derakon> | I hate how I have to stay professional while he (and it's always this specific user) is able to demand whatever he wants like a little child. |
| 20:30 | <&[R]> | Is he paying you? |
| 20:30 | | Shady [ShadyGuru@Nightstar-qfckjl.tv13.ptd.net] has joined #code |
| 20:32 | <&[R]> | If so, do it and bill him. If not, inform him that by policy you cannot write wiki articles that tailor to specific use-cases below a cerrtain rairy threshold. |
| 20:35 | <&Derakon> | Heh. |
| 20:40 | <&[R]> | Pretty much your only option to refuse professionally is to go "by policy" |
| 20:40 | <&[R]> | Of course that doesn't work if you're solo and known to be so. |
| 20:56 | | catalyst [catalyst@Nightstar-bt5k4h.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #code |
| 21:14 | <@TheWatcher> | OTOH, at least he fucking reads the wiki, apparently (not bitter at all) |
| 21:15 | <@Tamber> | s/reads/skims/ |
| 21:15 | <@TheWatcher> | Fair |
| 21:15 | <&[R]> | What the fucking fuck |
| 21:15 | <&[R]> | Windows 10 doesn't do hibernate out of the box? |
| 21:15 | <&[R]> | WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK |
| 21:15 | <@TheWatcher> | Tamber: But that's still a step up from the average user... |
| 21:15 | <@Tamber> | There is that. |
| 21:16 | <@TheWatcher> | [R]: That's... unexpected. |
| 21:19 | <@emmy> | [R]: it's a setting you need to enable |
| 21:20 | <@emmy> | but yea, it's annoying |
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| 22:16 | < ToxicFrog> | [R]: is it explicit hibernate that it lacks, or does it not even do hybrid suspend? |
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| 22:58 | <&[R]> | emmy: "out of the box" |
| 22:59 | <&[R]> | ToxicFrog: No option in the menu. Google immediately suggests downloading shit or mucking with the registry |
| 23:00 | < ToxicFrog> | [R]: Right, but I mean, on win7 and modern linuxes "suspend" is actually hybrid suspend, which falls back to hibernate if the power goes out. There's no "hibernate" option because "suspend" does the same thing. |
| 23:01 | <&[R]> | Except it doesn't. |
| 23:01 | <&[R]> | I want the power /cut/. |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: My initial suspicion is that anything that happens at the kernel level in Win7 will also happen in Win10 because they're the same basic kernel |
| 23:03 | < Vornotron> | I can confirm that sleep transitions to hibernate |
| 23:03 | < Vornotron> | But explicit hibernation isn't typically enabled |
| 23:04 | < ToxicFrog> | [R]: so suspend and then unplug it. It's not like hibernate is zero power draw on a modern system anyways, especially if you have USB peripherals plugged in. |
| 23:04 | <&[R]> | I've had it come out of the bag dead the next day, despite 100% power when I put it in. |
| 23:05 | < ToxicFrog> | Suspend is not the problem there. |
| 23:37 | <@Reiv> | Counting problem. |
| 23:38 | <@Reiv> | You have a system in which you have only the numbers from 1-5 |
| 23:38 | <@Reiv> | And the sequence goes 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 22, 23, 24, 25, 33, 34, 35 etc up to 55 |
| 23:39 | <@Reiv> | Which would then become 111 and continue (And I guess this means the sequence technically starts with 1-5 itself, but anyway) |
| 23:40 | <@Reiv> | Is there a general model for counting how many values are in a specific number and range of digits? |
| 23:46 | < Vornotron> | like you want to know -- if you have 5 glyphs and up to 2 digits, you want to know that you can get 5 + 25 = 30 results? |
| 23:46 | <@ErikMesoy> | sounds like you're basically riffing on base 5 |
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| 23:48 | < Vornotron> | this is sum_k=1^d b^k, which is... uh... (b^d - 1) * b / (b-1) |
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| 23:49 | <@Reiv> | Huh, thanks! |
| 23:49 | <@Reiv> | ErikMesoy: In that example, yes |
| 23:49 | <@pjdelport> | Reiv: That's almost base 5; is omitting zeroes intentional? |
| 23:49 | <@Reiv> | But the generallised one is "three digits, 7 glyphs" and 'one digit, ten glyphs' (well, that one is trivial, but you get my meaning) |
| 23:50 | <@Reiv> | Note that it's not quite base, because you never start the ones lower than the tens |
| 23:50 | | * McMartin finishes actually watching the talk that LILIPUTIAN SNOTWEASEL FOXTROT OMEGAFORCE was from; it's a really good talk. |
| 23:50 | <@pjdelport> | You get a variation of the usual positional systems which omit zeroes, but I forget what it's called. |
| 23:50 | < Vornotron> | oh wait, I misread, hang on |
| 23:51 | < ToxicFrog> | What talk is that? |
| 23:51 | < Vornotron> | for a given number of digits, this is the number of combinations with replacement |
| 23:52 | < Vornotron> | which is, uh -- n + m - 1 choose m, the stars & bars thing. One moment while I do this up. |
| 23:52 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: https://www.usenix.org/conference/enigma2016/conference-program/presentation/smi th - ultimately courtesy ErikMesoy |
| 23:53 | <@ErikMesoy> | The pass-it-around-the-internet snip is here: http://imgur.com/gallery/H0uVqFe |
| 23:55 | <&McMartin> | The talk itself is 20 minutes though and dense enough that if you care about this stuff it's worth the time to listen to the whole talk, imo |
| 23:55 | | * Vornotron mathmathmaths all the floors in hyrule |
| 23:55 | <&[R]> | Reiv: I don't get why it does permutations on double digits but suddenly resets on triple digits |
| 23:56 | < Vornotron> | ...wait, duh |
| 23:56 | < Vornotron> | You can just count the blank ones as another glyph |
| 23:57 | <@ErikMesoy> | except you never get middle blanks |
| 23:57 | < Vornotron> | for m glyphs and n digits then you get (m + n) choose (m+1) = (m+n)!/(m+1)!(n-1)! |
| 23:57 | < Vornotron> | ErikMesoy: right but the glyphs are already always sorted |
| 23:58 | <&[R]> | The listed pattern is only 15 values. (44 and 45 being the ones not listed) |
| 23:58 | <@pjdelport> | Reiv: Aha! |
| 23:58 | <@pjdelport> | Reiv: They're called Bijective numeration systems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bijective_numeration |
| 23:58 | <@pjdelport> | So your example above is bijective base 5. |
| 23:59 | < Vornotron> | "the sequence technically starts with 1-5 itself" |
| 23:59 | < Vornotron> | --actually, it's that, minus one |
| --- Log closed Fri Jul 08 00:00:19 2016 |