| --- Log opened Wed Feb 24 00:00:13 2016 |
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| 02:52 | <~Vornicus> | oh god PAM |
| 02:52 | | * Vornicus flees screaming |
| 03:01 | <@iospace> | PAM? |
| 03:04 | <~Vornicus> | Pluggable Authentication Module - it's how you, uh - it's the systems you use to set up users and their access to services |
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| 03:25 | < [R]> | It's a bit poorly designed, but it's the only game in the park. |
| 03:27 | <&Derakon> | Is this like LDAP? |
| 03:27 | <&Derakon> | I remember wrestling with that waaaaay back in the day. |
| 03:28 | < [R]> | Not quite |
| 03:28 | < [R]> | There's an LDAP module for PAM. |
| 03:29 | < [R]> | The idea for PAM is there's a billion different ways to authenticate someone, so PAM has hooks for all those possible ways. |
| 03:29 | <&Derakon> | Ahh. |
| 03:29 | < [R]> | Then if a program supports PAM auth... that program supports the 100 of ways PAM does. |
| 03:29 | <&Derakon> | So it's a façade over all the different potential implementations. |
| 03:30 | < [R]> | Note: The application cannot chose what PAM auth modules get used, the administrator does. |
| 03:30 | < [R]> | Yeah, almost every Linux distro ships it by default (the BSDs tend not to) |
| 04:19 | < Azash> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVlhMGQgDkY |
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| --- Log closed Wed Feb 24 04:57:03 2016 |
| --- Log opened Wed Feb 24 04:57:13 2016 |
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| 05:22 | <~Vornicus> | gnah I have gotten nothing done all day |
| 05:22 | | * [R] hands Vornicus a club membership |
| 05:23 | <&McMartin> | I merged a branch to day that touched nearly every file in the repository |
| 05:23 | <&McMartin> | And there were no merge conflicts |
| 05:23 | <&McMartin> | (And it was a good hundred-odd files) |
| 05:23 | <&McMartin> | This was the result of some carefully tuned sed scripts as we adjusted what our API should actually look like to be consistent, so the amount of *work* there was small, but! |
| 05:23 | <&McMartin> | Metrics |
| 05:24 | | * Vornicus bonks his brain, demands it work on refactoring the stonking huge gondola update function |
| 05:24 | <&McMartin> | :stonk: |
| 05:26 | <~Vornicus> | srsly, 125 lines. |
| 05:27 | <~Vornicus> | and something in it is wrong :( |
| 05:27 | <&McMartin> | boo |
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| 05:55 | | celticminstrel is now known as celmin|sleep |
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| 07:00 | | * jeroud updates a gondola. |
| 07:00 | <~Vornicus> | * The gondola moves beyond its path without changing what path it is on, floats through buildings |
| 07:01 | <&jeroud> | Yes, that would be the new antigrav system I installed. |
| 07:04 | <~Vornicus> | :( |
| 07:04 | <&jeroud> | Don't worry, I only updated the one. |
| 07:06 | <&jeroud> | I have also gotten nothing done all day, which isn't unreasonable considering it's only 9am. |
| 07:34 | <@abudhabi> | Hm. ZA has no summer/winter time difference? |
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| 07:47 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 07:50 | | * abudhabi wishes they'd start using permanent winter time here like they do in Russia. |
| 08:31 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|afk |
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| 10:04 | <@gnolam> | Argh. That is very obviously _not_ a dE of 0.5, because one shade is gray and the other is bloody yellow. |
| 10:04 | | * gnolam sighs. |
| 10:11 | <@gnolam> | ... ah, one of the conversions is always using D65, no matter what illuminant is actually being considered. >_< |
| 11:01 | | * abudhabi learns: Don't "!1" as root. |
| 11:03 | <@TheWatcher> | Huh? |
| 11:06 | <@abudhabi> | That means "run the first command in history". |
| 11:06 | <@abudhabi> | Which might be something like poweroff. |
| 11:06 | <@TheWatcher> | Oh, right |
| 11:15 | | M-E is now known as Emmy |
| 11:15 | < Emmy> | abudhabi: or anything involving rm -rf :P |
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| 13:08 | | * gnolam sighs. |
| 13:09 | <@gnolam> | You tell people their password, you write it down for them, you even leave a little text file called "password.txt" (in their native tongue)... and still they will call you up and ask you for their password. |
| 13:10 | <@gnolam> | At least it's better than last week's straight-to-the-accusation "You've changed my password!". |
| 13:11 | <@TheWatcher> | >.< |
| 13:50 | <@abudhabi> | Hm. If you've got a numeric result that's the sum of two components, one static and one random, how would you estimate the size of the random component, when the correlation between a random pair of results with the same static component is ~0.25, but the correlation of all results of a given static component is ~0.75? |
| 13:50 | <@abudhabi> | (Not sure this is the correct question to ask, though.) |
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| 16:17 | | * gnolam finally realizes why he's had Guile's theme stuck in his head all day: he started humming it when he started to tackle today's mammoth refactoring. |
| 16:17 | | * gnolam attempts to banish it with the Turbo Kid OST. |
| 16:55 | | * celticminstrel tries to figure out collision detection. |
| 17:15 | <~Vornicus> | what's colliding with what? |
| 17:16 | <@celticminstrel> | Monsters/player colliding with walls (defined by terrain), collectibles, or fixed objects. |
| 17:16 | <~Vornicus> | squares? circles? polys? |
| 17:16 | <@celticminstrel> | Rectangles should be sufficient. |
| 17:17 | <~Vornicus> | Is the terrain also tile-based? |
| 17:17 | <@celticminstrel> | The terrain is tile-based, but entity movement is freeform. |
| 17:17 | <~Vornicus> | And if so, is each tile either empty or solid block? |
| 17:18 | <~Vornicus> | Or do you have sloped tiles, jump-through tiles, etc? |
| 17:18 | <@celticminstrel> | There is a one-way tile, yes, and tiles that require a key to pass through. |
| 17:19 | <@celticminstrel> | There are no sloped tiles though. |
| 17:20 | <~Vornicus> | Does anything have a speed of greater than half a tile per physics tick? |
| 17:20 | <@celticminstrel> | I was going to specifically avoid doing that, so no, nothing does. |
| 17:22 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh, wait, I think the max speed is currently one more than half a tile, but that could be changed. |
| 17:25 | <~Vornicus> | ok. and the rectangles are axis-aligned? |
| 17:25 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah. |
| 17:28 | <~Vornicus> | ok. So, tiles are easy: to detect what tiles you're in, find the tile rows/columns that the edges of the rectangle are in. |
| 17:32 | <~Vornicus> | Most of the time - except for one-way tiles - you'll just go "this object can't go into this tile; push the object out the shortest way available" |
| 17:36 | <~Vornicus> | (you'll have to check adjacent tiles to do this" |
| 17:37 | <~Vornicus> | a one way tile, you'll ask the questions "is the collision new? is the collision coming in from the appropriate direction? does the collision have velocity inward from that direction?" |
| 17:38 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay, this pretty much makes sense. |
| 17:39 | <~Vornicus> | Locked tiles you just "turn off" for the purposes of entities that hold the key. |
| 17:46 | | * catadroid has implemented basically all of std::shared_ptr, including the cache friendly behaviour of make_shared |
| 17:46 | | * catadroid thinks she ought to give the imposter syndrome a break |
| 17:49 | <~Vornicus> | for about three seconds I thought celmin said the thing about shared_ptr and was like "what the heck are you doing, this is a simple collision system, gosh" and then I reread and was like "oh. okay she's allowed." |
| 17:49 | <@celticminstrel> | Heh. |
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| 18:42 | < catadroid> | ^^; |
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| 20:38 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, I have basic wall collision working, and one-way wall collision working. |
| 20:47 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
| 20:48 | <~Vornicus> | hooray |
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| 21:26 | <@celticminstrel> | I'm going to leave the locked tiles for later, which means I now need to figure out entity-entity collision. |
| 21:35 | < [R]> | Is it super important that entities have squared hit boxes? |
| 21:35 | | * [R] recommends circular hit boxes for entities as that's easier to math for. |
| 21:35 | < [R]> | (Though I have no idea how to deal with eclipsoids, so if you have rectangular ones...) |
| 21:37 | <&McMartin> | I think cm is using Unity, and so RigidObject will Do What Is Needed. |
| 21:38 | <@celticminstrel> | I'm not using Unity. Why would you think that? |
| 21:38 | <&McMartin> | Because there are like five similar projects going on at once here and I had a mismatch, clearly~ |
| 21:39 | <@celticminstrel> | I don't have any issue with the basic collision detection - given two entities, I can easily detect whether they are colliding. |
| 21:39 | <@celticminstrel> | My difficulty lies more in deciding which pairs to test in the first place. |
| 21:39 | <&McMartin> | That's a really hard problem, it turns out. >_> |
| 21:40 | | * McMartin adapted Game Maker's approach of type-to-type collisions for Monocle, but he's not completely happy with the result. |
| 21:40 | <@celticminstrel> | Type-to-type? |
| 21:41 | <&McMartin> | Damage routine runs when object of type PLAYER runs into any object of type HAZARD or any subtype thereof |
| 21:42 | <&McMartin> | My Monocle system ditches subtyping, because fuck inheritance, and lets you tag classes of entity, and so it's tag-to-tag collision |
| 21:42 | <&McMartin> | (Which means that enemies would do collision damage or not depending on whether or not they had the HAZARD tag) |
| 21:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Hmm. Do I need to care about monster-monster collisions... |
| 21:43 | <&McMartin> | It sounds like you're hardcoding an engine at the game level? |
| 21:43 | <&McMartin> | If so, yeah, grouping like that is totally the easy route~ |
| 21:43 | | * McMartin had separate entity pools for the player, enemies, player bullets, and enemy bullets in his first game project. |
| 21:43 | <@celticminstrel> | Ooh, so having separate lists for each category. |
| 21:43 | <@celticminstrel> | Hmm... |
| 21:44 | <@celticminstrel> | Projectiles complicate things the most, though. |
| 21:44 | <@celticminstrel> | Then again, I suppose it's unlikely there'll ever be more than ten or so in existence (and even that is a lot). |
| 21:45 | <&McMartin> | Entity RAM is pretty cheap |
| 21:45 | <&McMartin> | Unless you are targeting the C64 or something just have 500 |
| 21:45 | <@celticminstrel> | So, checking player against all enemies and against all enemy projectiles, and checking each player projectile against all enemies... |
| 21:45 | <&McMartin> | and an "active" flag |
| 21:45 | <@celticminstrel> | Would that be too slow it there were, like, 1000 enemies or something? |
| 21:45 | <@celticminstrel> | ^if |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | Well, you're looking at MxN, right |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | But then there's a linear check "is this actually active", and it only contributes to the product if the answer is yes |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | A loop from one to a thousand checking a boolean in each list is pretty quick in this day and age, I'd expect |
| 21:47 | <@celticminstrel> | Not quite sure what you mean by "active". |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | If there are 1000 enemies on screen *right now* and similar numbers of bullets, yeah that's gonna be expensive and you'll probably need quadtree optimizations to organize space and RAM |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | If I have space for, say, 100 bullets |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | But there are only five bullets on the screen |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | Because I've only fired five times recently |
| 21:47 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah, there wouldn't be 1000 enemies visible at the same time, but there might be that many in existence in the level. |
| 21:48 | <&McMartin> | You're probably *still* okay; we get, like, millions of instructions per frame |
| 21:48 | <&McMartin> | But once not, you end up structuring space in a way that two objects not being in the same subtree means they're at least X units apart, which prefilters collisions |
| 21:48 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh, wait, I could probably narrow it down by a simple distance test. |
| 21:48 | <&McMartin> | This is *usually* done in huge 3D space, so it's called octrees. |
| 21:49 | <&McMartin> | ... yes, always start with either distance or axis-aligned bounding box test |
| 21:49 | <&McMartin> | this is for when you're excluding even that |
| 21:49 | <@celticminstrel> | Anything more than "screen_width / 2" from the player can be ignored. |
| 21:49 | | * McMartin nods |
| 21:49 | <&McMartin> | The fully general version of this in 2D is quadtree representations |
| 21:49 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay, so I guess the category version should work. |
| 21:49 | <&McMartin> | That is almost certainly overkill for this |
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| 22:42 | <&jerith> | Aww, I can't have webgl builds of my game. |
| 22:42 | <&jerith> | Unity2d's il2cpp code generator doesn't know what to do with the fsharp core DLL. |
| 22:43 | <&jerith> | Err, Unity3d. |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | Oh, right, they use an old fork of MonoDevelop still, don't they |
| 22:44 | <&jerith> | I think it's a newer fork these days. |
| 22:45 | <&jerith> | But there's no official support for any languages other than UnityScript (which is a JS variant of some kind) and C#. |
| 22:45 | <&jerith> | You can compile and link in any CLR DLL, though. |
| 22:45 | <&jerith> | You just have to do it from the outside. |
| 22:46 | <&jerith> | That seems to work fine for the build targets that actually use mono at runtime. |
| 22:50 | <@Reiv> | so |
| 22:50 | <@Reiv> | Is Unity actually solid |
| 22:50 | <&jerith> | I've seen some pretty solid things built with it. |
| 22:50 | <&jerith> | It's also nicely cross-platform. |
| 22:50 | <@Reiv> | Or is it mostly "It happened to be written in a langage that happened to be mono compatable, whee, you now have multiplatform for free, go nuts kids" and that plus a decent price point made it huge |
| 22:51 | <&jerith> | The cross-platform is fairly recent. |
| 22:51 | <&jerith> | At least, Linux support is. I'm pretty sure it started Windows-only, too. |
| 22:59 | <@gnolam> | Linux support came with Wasteland 2. |
| 23:00 | <@gnolam> | They raised enough money with that kickstarter to pay the Unity devs to finish their cross-platform support. |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | YEp |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | There's also that minor work known as "Kerbal Space Program" |
| 23:03 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 23:05 | <@gnolam> | I can't remember KSP having any role in it. IIRC, they just went "hey, neat!" when Unity said multiplatform support was on its way and then started releasing builds as soon as it was officially available. |
| 23:06 | <&McMartin> | Oh |
| 23:06 | <&McMartin> | This was to answer the question "So, is Unity good for anything" |
| 23:06 | <&McMartin> | To which my answer is "it's not as big as UE3 at this point but I'm pretty comfortable saying it's bigger than Source" |
| 23:07 | <&McMartin> | Wasteland 2 is what really closed the gap, but for "range of play" it's actually comfortably in the middle of the design space |
| 23:07 | <&McMartin> | Which I suppose makes sense really |
| 23:07 | | * McMartin would put, say, Hexcells on one end and then KSP on the other. |
| 23:07 | <@gnolam> | I've heard a lot of good things about it, which I might add is not the case with many commercial engines. |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | I have had cause to dabble with it in the past |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | It is more clearly geared towards a small studio than what my needs actually were. :D |
| 23:11 | <@gnolam> | http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35560458 <- "The man who made 'the worst video game in history'" |
| 23:12 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: small studio? |
| 23:13 | <&McMartin> | gnolam: Howard Scott Warshaw also made one of the games on the shortlist of best game for that platform, so that's really inappropriate~ |
| 23:14 | <@gnolam> | They mention that. |
| 23:14 | <&McMartin> | Solaris is better than Yars' Revenge, imo, but it also came out after The Legend of Zelda did. |
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| --- Log closed Thu Feb 25 00:00:28 2016 |