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| --- Log closed Tue Dec 01 06:04:04 2015 |
| --- Log opened Tue Dec 01 06:04:09 2015 |
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| 21:57 | <&Derakon> | I am kind of surprised at how I'm not finding an easy "this is how you open a secure connection to a server" / "this is how you write a server that can handle secure connections" guide for Java online. |
| 21:57 | <&Derakon> | I've found a few kind of fiddly things that rely on Apache Commons, which we don't have. |
| 21:58 | <@celticminstrel> | Does the basic Java HTTP server support it...? |
| 21:58 | <&Derakon> | But I really expected to just find a turnkey "drop this into your program, replace the hostname, port, and certificate with your own, and you can securely communicate." |
| 21:58 | <&Derakon> | CM: It may! It's hard to know! |
| 21:58 | <@celticminstrel> | I think it's in Oracle's namespace. |
| 21:58 | <&Derakon> | Yeah, I'm looking at https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E13222_01/wls/docs103/security/SSL_client.html at the moment. |
| 21:59 | <&Derakon> | But that's not very helpful. Nothing I've found has been very helpful. |
| 22:00 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh sorry, it's in Sun's namespace. |
| 22:00 | <@celticminstrel> | com.sun.net.httpserver.HttpServer |
| 22:02 | <@celticminstrel> | But I don't think that's helpful. |
| 22:02 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh wait. |
| 22:02 | <&Derakon> | It might be. |
| 22:02 | <@celticminstrel> | com.sun.net.httpserver.HttpsServer |
| 22:03 | <&McMartin> | Derakon: Apache Commons are freely available |
| 22:03 | <&Derakon> | McM: yeah, but we're trying to avoid them for reasons I don't recall off the top of my head. |
| 22:03 | <&Derakon> | Possibly licensing? |
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| 22:04 | <&McMartin> | Hrm. I thought they were quite liberally licensed for some reason |
| 22:04 | <&McMartin> | This part isn't my field |
| 22:05 | <&McMartin> | "See if you can't solve non-technical roadblocks" is worth at least keeping on the back burner. The Commons are part of the larger Jakarta project and that is, well |
| 22:05 | <&McMartin> | It's like trying to write a webserver in C while never touching Apache-related technology. It's probably *possible* but it's going to be unnecessarily convoluted. |
| 22:06 | <&McMartin> | (Yes, I know nginx exists) |
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| 22:10 | <&Derakon> | Ah, okay, it's not licensing, we just don't want to add the entire Apache Commons in because it's huge. |
| 22:10 | <&Derakon> | If we have a decent reason to use a portion of it then we can add it freely. |
| 22:11 | <&McMartin> | It has a bunch of subcomponents |
| 22:11 | <&Derakon> | Yes. |
| 22:11 | <&Derakon> | We are, for example, using Apache Commons Math. |
| 22:11 | | * McMartin nods |
| 22:11 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 22:11 | <&McMartin> | This is 'you can use some shell scripts to build this stuff with but please do not include Every Shell Script Ever as part of your prereqs" |
| 22:11 | <&McMartin> | And there's an option for that, because Enterprise~ |
| 22:13 | <&Derakon> | Anyway, mostly I'm just bitching about having to reinvent the wheel. |
| 22:14 | <&Derakon> | Because Java is supposed to already have a million people who have Done This Before and blazed the trail, right? |
| 22:15 | <@celticminstrel> | Is it really reinventing the wheel when there's a premade HTTPS server available in the com.sun.net namespace? |
| 22:15 | <&Derakon> | It's not just the server, but also the client and setting up verification/authentication. |
| 22:17 | <@celticminstrel> | I wouldn't be surprised if there's a class to handle the client, too. |
| 22:17 | <&McMartin> | Derakon: Yeah, that wheel everyone's been tinkering with is the stuff in stuff like Commons and surrounding it |
| 22:18 | <&Derakon> | I've been looking for a "How to do secure network communications in Java" article or the like, though, not just a handful of classes whose javadocs I need to carefully read, plus understand the protocols involved and also exactly how security works. |
| 22:18 | <&McMartin> | I mean |
| 22:18 | <&McMartin> | Apache Tomcat *is* the reference implementation of Java-based server technology |
| 22:18 | <&Derakon> | (This is why I'm categorizing this more as "bitching" than "legitimate complaints" at this juncture though) |
| 22:21 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 22:22 | <&Derakon> | In reality ultimately we'll probably be using our existing webserver for this, which is Python-oriented. |
| 22:22 | <&Derakon> | So the client-side stuff is more important. |
| 22:22 | <&McMartin> | I mean, I sort of get the impression that the Java community considers what you're looking for to be the stopgap, and the handful of Java classes that are well-documented with javadocs to be the preferred end state |
| 22:22 | <&Derakon> | Ehh. They're both important. |
| 22:22 | <&Derakon> | The javadocs are the ultimate reference, but they're lousy for task-oriented problems. |
| 22:23 | <&Derakon> | Articles are great for task-oriented problems but do a shit job of telling you what's going on behind the scenes and how things actually piece together. |
| 22:23 | <&Derakon> | My personal best-way-to-learn is to get a basic working example that I can experiment with, which is occasionally nearly impossible just from javadocs. |
| 22:24 | | * McMartin nods |
| 22:29 | <@Reiv> | v much |
| 22:29 | <@Reiv> | "Help how do I X" being answered with "Check the javadocs, it's in there" did the opposite of helping for me |
| 22:30 | <@Reiv> | Interestingly, the Oracle equivalent is so excellent I use it as a routine reference including to newbies, but that's another matter entirely |
| 22:30 | <@Reiv> | (And has flaws of its own, of course.) |
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| --- Log closed Wed Dec 02 00:00:21 2015 |