| --- Log opened Sun Sep 20 00:00:29 2015 |
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| 15:58 | | * TheWatcher args, strangles the Irssi developers |
| 15:59 | <@TheWatcher> | Is it too much to ask for consistency in argument order and naming?! |
| 15:59 | <@TheWatcher> | Apparently! |
| 16:12 | < catalyst> | yup |
| 16:13 | | * TheWatcher sighs |
| 16:17 | <@gnolam> | https://twitter.com/tehawesome/status/644614564659597313 |
| 16:23 | <@TheWatcher> | Right, fuck this shit, abstraction layer time. |
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| 17:02 | <@gnolam> | https://d324imu86q1bqn.cloudfront.net/uploads/asset/attachment/3003283/ello-xhdp i-3db01204.jpg |
| 17:05 | < catalyst> | ah, it makes sense |
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| 19:40 | <@Alek> | haha, gnolam, sounds like xkcd. |
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| 22:30 | <@Alek> | you know something I realized? |
| 22:33 | <@Alek> | old games often look crappier on new computers than they did originally, not just because of the resolution, but also because of the display. like McM showed recently with the CRT vs TV trick, modern emulators can't or don't take that kind of thing into account, so even if the game is upscaled to "match" resolution, it still doesn't look as good. Stuff like pixel shapes, RGB shaping, etc. |
| 22:35 | <@Alek> | I'll admit that good GB or NES emulators did have some display options - variants of CRT and TV displays, among others - but I think they stalled out after that. and I don't think anyone actually did stuff like display adapting for DOSbox. |
| 22:35 | <@Alek> | at least, not that I've seen. |
| 22:36 | <@Alek> | come to think of it, that may be the reason some older games go all weird-looking graphically on DOSbox - the code was made to work with hardware quirks that DOSbox doesn't emulate and that were never properly fixed for porting. |
| 22:36 | | * Alek shrugs. |
| 22:37 | <@Alek> | I'm no expert, but that looks like a possibility to me. |
| 22:39 | <&McMartin> | There's active research on a few of those |
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| 22:40 | <@Alek> | good. |
| 22:40 | <@Alek> | I'm glad. |
| 22:40 | <&McMartin> | There are some out-of-DOSBox attempts to simulate the older displays with both curvature and drawing a VGA phosphor grille at 1080p |
| 22:40 | | * McMartin gestures at "You Have To Win The Game", which is also free |
| 22:41 | <&McMartin> | I remember somebody doing closeups of displays on various monitors for Super Android specifically |
| 22:41 | <&McMartin> | That said, it also does sometimes go in the other direction. |
| 22:42 | <&McMartin> | Passing through an RF modulator/demodulator is pretty much strict image degradation, and people have modded old Ataris and such to instead do composite video |
| 22:43 | | * McMartin is getting around that with at *really good cable*, but that only works on the Atari. The Commodore is still distorted because it really wants to be able to display twice the resolution that SDTV can handle, and some of its graphics will blur in that case. |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | The really "oh man, this is totally wrong" case for DOSBox is Ultima II |
| 22:43 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_Graphics_Adapter#/media/File:Ultima2_CompVsR GB.png |
| 22:45 | <@celticminstrel> | Whoa. |
| 22:45 | <@celticminstrel> | Composite means...? |
| 22:45 | <@celticminstrel> | Is U2 the one that GoG gives away free? |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | No, U4 is |
| 22:46 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | That's because U4 is the historically relevant one |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | It's also early-VGA. |
| 22:46 | <@celticminstrel> | I think I've seen something like that pattern somewhere, though. |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | "Composite" means "composite video out", viz. driving an standard-definition television set via alternate means |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | The one on the left is RGBI, viz. hooked to a computer monitor of proper resolution |
| 22:47 | | * celticminstrel nods. |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | (The quirk being exploited here is north american color TVs encode hue in the *phase* of a signal mixed with the brightness signal. So the trick here is to use your higher-resolution display to fabricate that signal outright.) |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | (The original CGA cards had a TV-out option so stuff pre-1984 or so often expected a TV instead of a CGA monitor.) |
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| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | This is also hilarious because, as it turns out, the way you fabricate that signal is "pretend that you have a 160x100x16 linear bitmap and just start blitting color nybbles" |
| 22:50 | <&McMartin> | This is the first hardware-abuse technique I'm aware of where the programming of it is actually much, much simpler than explaining what is goin on~ |
| 22:50 | <@celticminstrel> | Heh. |
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| 22:58 | <&McMartin> | https://bumbershootsoft.wordpress.com/2015/09/05/cga-the-oldest-tricks-in-the-pc s-book/ is the article he was mentioning, and also VileR's post, which I link, which is fantastic |
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| 23:07 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey, and actually *specifically* on the topic of "improving the simulation of NTSC simulation on a digital display" |
| 23:07 | <&McMartin> | http://8088mph.blogspot.com/2015/08/getting-optimal-apple-screenshots-wntsc.html |
| 23:07 | <&McMartin> | It looks like Apple II emulation is the cutting edge for this stuff. |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | (I would speculate that this is because the Atari 2600 was designed to fit into NTSC's limits, so operating as a "perfect" television actually gives the best displays there, and because all other 8-bits degraded their output for televisions.) |
| 23:08 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 23:09 | | * Derakon eyes the 8088 MPH demo. |
| 23:09 | <&Derakon> | This is crazy for a machine from 1981. |
| 23:09 | <&Derakon> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_1901077497&feature=iv&src _vid=yHXx3orN35Y&v=hNRO7lno_DM |
| 23:11 | <&Derakon> | I wonder how much the size of the demo exceeds contemporary storage hardware~ |
| 23:12 | <&McMartin> | It fits on a floppy. |
| 23:13 | <&McMartin> | The bits where there's a little bit of text moving up and down are the bits where it's loading the next effect from disk. |
| 23:14 | <&McMartin> | (With loop unrolling at loadtime and such it *does* presume, IIRC, something like 256 or 512 KB or RAM, but goin gThe Full 640 wasn't unheard of even then.) |
| 23:14 | <&McMartin> | And yes, that demo has in it *multiple, completely unrelated* world firsts~ |
| 23:15 | <&McMartin> | This is definitely flashier than the world first for C64 two years back. |
| 23:15 | <&McMartin> | (That one finally tracked down a hardware bug that had been known of for decades but never isolated, and also showed how to dodge it.) |
| 23:15 | <&Derakon> | Which was? |
| 23:16 | <&Derakon> | Oh, I vaguely remember you talking about that. |
| 23:20 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, it was "activating display at a certain time would scroll the entire screen to the right by some amount..." |
| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | "... and also cause the DRAM refresh logic to try to refresh one memory location with the value of a different one, corrupting your RAM" |
| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | Learning about the CGA stuff meant learning about the PC and its architecture |
| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | It's really interesting how different the two are wrt stuff like that |
| 23:22 | <&McMartin> | The 65xx machines run at about 1.x MHz, off a master clock signal that is - surprise! The NTSC color signal frequency, but divided by 12 |
| 23:23 | <&McMartin> | (This lets them use a stock television part for their machine, which is thus both extremely precise and incredibly cheap) |
| 23:23 | <&Derakon> | Heh. |
| 23:23 | <&McMartin> | So did the 8088, but it only divided it by 3, giving you the 4.77MHz speed |
| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | So the PC has what we'd consider a relatively modern bus. The CPU is the fastest element on the board, and there's extra stuff between it and the bus that tells it to hang on for a sec if it wants to hit memory but something else wants it. Bus contention is a thing, and in fact until the 486, bus contention based on the memory accesses associated with fetching the next instruction are the dominant source of |
| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | lost time on a PC. |
| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | (This also meant that optimizing for space *was* optimizing for speed.) |
| 23:25 | <&McMartin> | Over in 65xx land, they'd develop these elaborate protocols where the bus would be shared amongst devices with lack of contention guaranteed by the design. |
| 23:25 | <&McMartin> | I suspect this is why the greater slowdown, so that it could sync with the video operations. |
| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | So the CPU got the bus for half the clock cycle every clock cycle, and the video and DRAM systems got it the other half |
| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | *except* when the video needed to load a new row of character data, in which case it would set some conditions and monopolize the bus entirely for 40 cycles. |
| 23:27 | <&McMartin> | You can *think* of that as bus contention with one chip having priority over all others, but that wasn't how they thought of it and it isn't how you think about it when developing it |
| 23:27 | <&McMartin> | Because those are the "bad lines" that so many of the advanced techniques revolve around controlling or influencing. |
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| --- Log closed Mon Sep 21 00:00:45 2015 |