| --- Log opened Fri Jun 12 00:00:05 2015 |
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| 01:30 | <@Alek> | gnolam: triangles everywhere. |
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| 01:34 | <@gnolam> | Hmm. I have been pondering triangles in the CIELAB plots, but I think adding eyes to them might be a bit too obvious. >_> |
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| 04:29 | <@macdjord|wurk> | catadroid`: It seems to me like the solution here would be a GCed language where, whenever you leave the scope in which an object was crated, an immediate GC check on it is done. Thus, if you created something for local use, it is guerenteed to be cleaned up neatly as soon as you are done with it. If, of course, you've passed a reference elsewhere, then you're out of luck; you either have to live with it being destroyed at some inde |
| 04:29 | <@macdjord|wurk> | terminate point after the last reference dies, or manually call a cleanup function at the apropriate time. Of course, this is strictly better than a non-GC language, where, in order to survive outside its creation scope, an object has to heap-allocated, so you /must/ manually free it at end-of-life; there is no laissez-faire optin at all. |
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| 04:38 | <~Vornicus> | This is called refcounting |
| 04:42 | <~Vornicus> | (you drop out of a scope and anything in it gets its references decremented, and 0s there mean cleanup) |
| 05:02 | <&Derakon> | Note that merely reference counting is not sufficient as a general solution, because it ignores cyclical references (where A refers to B and B refers to A, neither can be collected even if nothing else refers to them) |
| 05:04 | <@macdjord> | Vornicus: Yes. However, AFAIK, most GC languages, even ones that use pure refcount GC, don't guerentee that an object will be GCed as soon as the last ref is destroyed. |
| 05:10 | <&Derakon> | That would entail running GC literally every time a reference changed, yes. |
| 05:12 | <@macdjord> | Derakon: Thus my proposal: it is guerenteed to be GCed when the /original/ reference goes out of scope, if that was the only reference. And only the object in question or descendents thereof, not all objects. |
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| 05:57 | <&McMartin> | macdjord: You're moving towards statically determined object lifetimes. See Rust for the current cutting edge there. |
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| 09:09 | < abudhabi> | Hmm. I'm trying to send an indexed list via POST, using Stripes. |
| 09:10 | < abudhabi> | I'm generating the parameters via jQuery, appending into a div inside the form. |
| 09:11 | < abudhabi> | The first set of parameters, foo[0].bar, etc, gets sent properly. |
| 09:11 | < abudhabi> | But all the others, although they appear to be written to the page (as verified by the inspector), are not. |
| 09:12 | < abudhabi> | Aha! I'm an idiot. I had it .click() from inside the for-loop. |
| 09:12 | < abudhabi> | Thanks for the help. |
| 09:12 | < catadroid`> | no worries |
| 09:13 | | catadroid` is now known as catadroid |
| 09:14 | < abudhabi> | What's the recommended screen capture + voice input software, for Windows? Fraps? |
| 09:15 | < abudhabi> | Hmm. Fraps seems paid-only. Any other things? |
| 09:17 | < catadroid> | OBS seems okay |
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| 09:28 | < abudhabi> | I'm looking at CamStudio and it seems to work. |
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| 09:53 | <@TheWatcher> | abudhabi: VLC has a screen/voice capture thing in it too, might want to try that? |
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| 11:23 | < Erik> | I have a code sample containing stuff like "public static Dictionary<Foo.Bar>, List<string>> Baz = new Dictionary<Foo.Bar, List<string>>" amidst { and } galore. I can tell it's in the C/Java family, what idiosyncracies should I look for to pin it down more precisely? |
| 11:24 | < Erik> | (Spare yourself the "look for author's contact information" quips. I have it, but author is unavailable until Monday because reasons.) |
| 11:26 | < abudhabi> | Hmm. |
| 11:26 | < abudhabi> | The capitalization of "string" seems to indicate C#. |
| 11:26 | <@TheWatcher> | Do you see any namespace stuff? |
| 11:27 | < Erik> | No. Highest name-like thing on the segment I have is "static class DictionaryMappings". |
| 11:28 | < abudhabi> | Are there any #includes? |
| 11:28 | <@TheWatcher> | I'd say abudhabi is probably right, then. |
| 11:28 | < Erik> | No. There might be both namespaces and #includes outside the incomplete part I am working on, though. |
| 11:29 | < abudhabi> | Are 'import's? Any 'using's? |
| 11:30 | < Erik> | Not that I can see |
| 11:30 | < abudhabi> | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4762570/language-syntax-diff-sheet-between-ja va-and-c |
| 11:30 | < abudhabi> | http://www.harding.edu/fmccown/java_csharp_comparison.html |
| 11:31 | < abudhabi> | I'd take a closer look at the variable types. |
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| 12:26 | <@[R]> | I doubt it's C++ due to the capitalization, I don't know enough C# to say if it's Java or C# though. |
| 12:41 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, in java String is capitalised (java.lang.String) while in c++ and c# it's not. However, in c++ std::list is lowercase, while in c# the List class is capitalised. |
| 12:43 | <@TheWatcher> | c# also has a Dictionary class that c++ does not, and Java does but only as an abstract class you shouldn't use directly. |
| 12:57 | < catadroid`> | C++ has std::unordered_map now |
| 12:57 | < catadroid`> | not that I'd necessarily recommend using it, it has awful performance characteristics |
| 12:57 | | catadroid` is now known as catadroid |
| 13:16 | | * TheWatcher hairpulls at systems integration code |
| 13:18 | <@TheWatcher> | It's always fun writing code to make two systems talk to each other, when you don't have complete specs for either system, and while normal behaviour is easy enough to reverse engineer, occasionally there's odd things that you couldn't predict that make everything go ARGLBLARGLARGHNOO |
| 13:34 | < catadroid> | sounds exciting |
| 13:35 | < catadroid> | I'm writing C++ data structures blind without help from the language at runtime |
| 13:37 | <@TheWatcher> | "Exciting" is one adjective. "Fucking infurating" is another. |
| 13:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Fuck's sake why won't someone give my ex-girlfriend who I live with a job >.< |
| 13:40 | < abudhabi> | For the same reasons why many other people don't get jobs, I expect. |
| 13:40 | <@TheWatcher> | Because fucked economy. |
| 13:40 | <@Tarinaky> | She has a better CV than I do. |
| 13:40 | < catadroid> | I'd give her one |
| 13:40 | < catadroid> | D: |
| 13:40 | < abudhabi> | If you had any but your own to give?: V |
| 13:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Not even joking. They just won't hire her because of how she looks D: |
| 13:42 | < catadroid> | ;_; |
| 13:42 | < abudhabi> | So your question was rhetorical? |
| 13:42 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes. Sorry. |
| 13:42 | < catadroid> | that's awful :\ |
| 13:42 | <@Tarinaky> | I thought I used a rhetorical question mark. |
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| 14:51 | < catadroid> | Apparently incrementing the loop variable helps. |
| 14:52 | <@TheWatcher> | I have heard such pernicious rumours in the past, yes. |
| 14:52 | <@Tarinaky> | Unless the loop is supposed to decrement. |
| 14:52 | <@Tarinaky> | Or unless it's an infiloop. |
| 14:53 | <@Tarinaky> | Or unless it's *some other circumstance where incrementing a loop counter would be harmful* |
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| 14:56 | < catadroid`> | well |
| 14:56 | < catadroid`> | in this instance it prevents an infinite loop on a thread I didn't know about |
| 14:56 | | catadroid` is now known as catadroid |
| 15:06 | < catadroid> | oh god my systems are being reused |
| 15:07 | < ToxicFrog> | Is this \o/ yay I am useful |
| 15:07 | < ToxicFrog> | Or /o\ that's just a prototype, don't deploy it in production, oh god what are you doing |
| 15:08 | < catadroid> | Actually it's a 'yay but I'm swamped supporting other things too' |
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| 16:01 | < abudhabi> | Argh. |
| 16:01 | < abudhabi> | Fuck you, makers of inordinately picky password requirements. |
| 16:02 | < abudhabi> | I don't want a password that's compilable Perl code. |
| 16:02 | < abudhabi> | I want one I can actually remember. |
| 16:05 | < abudhabi> | They want 1+ special signs or numbers and 1+ capital letters. |
| 16:05 | < abudhabi> | But they disallow spaces. |
| 16:06 | <@ErikMesoy> | 123Password? |
| 16:06 | < abudhabi> | And it checks against a dictionary to disallow actual words, and common strings of numbers. |
| 16:10 | < ToxicFrog> | keepass |
| 16:12 | <@celticminstrel> | If they don't limit the length, just use a sentence without the spaces? |
| 16:12 | < abudhabi> | They disallow human words. |
| 16:12 | <@celticminstrel> | That wouldn't be a human word. |
| 16:12 | <@celticminstrel> | Unless they check every substring for possible words, it should work. |
| 16:13 | < abudhabi> | They do. |
| 16:13 | <@celticminstrel> | ...then complaints to the idiots who wrote it are in order. |
| 16:14 | <@celticminstrel> | Like, actually email them and explain what's wrong with their password requirements. |
| 16:14 | < abudhabi> | They included a 'handy' password generator under the form. A generated password was: j!DJs9,&k |
| 16:15 | <@celticminstrel> | Pff. |
| 16:15 | < abudhabi> | I think they got such emails before, hence the generator. |
| 16:16 | <@celticminstrel> | Mind you, I said that, but I still haven't emailed Apple or Microsoft over their idiocy (Microsoft is worse, in that it actually has an upper limit). |
| 16:17 | <@celticminstrel> | (Apple was pretty bad too though - they didn't complain about spaces in the password, but if you included them, they were stripped out without telling you.) |
| 16:17 | | * celticminstrel has no idea whether that's still the case with Apple; the Microsoft case was more recent. |
| 16:17 | <@celticminstrel> | So basically, Apple set your password to something different from what you told it to set it to. |
| 16:20 | <@celticminstrel> | Completely unrelated - does anyone pronounce "trie" differently from "tree"? |
| 16:21 | < abudhabi> | In what language? |
| 16:21 | <@celticminstrel> | ...uh. English? |
| 16:21 | <@celticminstrel> | Programming terms. |
| 16:22 | < abudhabi> | Is trie part of a word? |
| 16:22 | <@celticminstrel> | No, I don't think so. Like tree, it's a data structure used in programming. |
| 16:24 | < abudhabi> | I would probably pronounce trie like try, if it were a word. |
| 16:24 | < abudhabi> | English pronounciation is inconsistent arbitrary bullshit, anyway. |
| 16:25 | <@celticminstrel> | That's largely not true. |
| 16:25 | < abudhabi> | Except it is. |
| 16:25 | <@celticminstrel> | No seriously, there's a lot of regularity in the spelling-to-pronunciation mapping. |
| 16:26 | <@celticminstrel> | Borrowed words are probably the major outliers. |
| 16:26 | <@celticminstrel> | Also words like "come" or "done". |
| 16:26 | < abudhabi> | English is MOSTLY borrowed words. |
| 16:26 | < abudhabi> | http://pauillac.inria.fr/~xleroy/stuff/english-pronunciation.html |
| 16:26 | <@celticminstrel> | That's also not true. |
| 16:27 | < abudhabi> | English is a mix of Celtic, Latinic and Germanic vocabularies. I'd be hard pressed to identify which words are loan words and which are not. |
| 16:28 | <@celticminstrel> | Most of those were assimilated since they were borrowed before the spelling was standardized. The issue is more recent borrowings. |
| 16:31 | <@celticminstrel> | But words like "come" and "done" and possibly a lot of the ones in that link are weirdly spelled because of the Great Vowel Shift. I suppose "come" may have once rhymed (approximately at least) with "comb", and it wasn't respelled when the pronunciation changed. |
| 16:32 | <@celticminstrel> | And there's definitely some inconsistency, I'm not denying that, but there's also a lot more regularity than people usually give it credit for. |
| 16:33 | < abudhabi> | Given a particular grapheme in English, the list of possible phonemes is usually very large, and typically requires memorization of the particular case, as opposed to any particular rule. |
| 16:33 | <@celticminstrel> | Like I said, that's not really true. |
| 16:33 | <@celticminstrel> | It's also a poor way of looking at it. |
| 16:33 | < abudhabi> | Except it is, like I said. |
| 16:33 | <@celticminstrel> | English orthograpgy is not a grapheme-to-phoneme mapping. |
| 16:33 | <@celticminstrel> | ^orthography |
| 16:33 | < abudhabi> | Which is the problem. |
| 16:33 | <@celticminstrel> | It's not a problem in itself. |
| 16:34 | <@celticminstrel> | A grapheme's pronunciation depends on its context in a word. |
| 16:34 | < abudhabi> | It is, if you want to know how to pronounce a word from its written form. |
| 16:34 | <@celticminstrel> | No. |
| 16:35 | < abudhabi> | Yes. |
| 16:35 | <@celticminstrel> | The problem isn't that it's not a simple grapheme-to-morpheme mapping. |
| 16:35 | <@ErikMesoy> | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-language_spelling_reform#16th_and_17th_cen turies <-- Also English spelling was deliberately distanced from pronunciation by people who thought the written form should look more like Latin. That's why there's a C in Scissors. |
| 16:35 | <@celticminstrel> | It's that there's so many exceptions to the rues. |
| 16:35 | <@celticminstrel> | ^rules |
| 16:36 | <@celticminstrel> | There was one guy who said that "ghoti" could be pronounced like "fish", but that's impossible. There's no way by English spelling rules that "ghoti" could be pronounced like anything other than "goatee". |
| 16:36 | <@ErikMesoy> | But there is a way by English spelling exceptions! |
| 16:37 | <@celticminstrel> | Each of the five vowels has two distinct pronounciations, but which to use is usually determined by the context - by the presence or absence of a final E, or based on whether it's followed by a single or double consonant. |
| 16:38 | <@celticminstrel> | (That's not counting all the varied pronunciations you can get from two-vowel digraphs, mind you.) |
| 16:38 | <@celticminstrel> | (It's single vowels only.) |
| 16:38 | <@ErikMesoy> | And the exceptions are so numerous that they form their own sub-rules. TI is pronounced like the last part of "fish" in enough words (station, nation, patient, etc) that it's arrogant to say "no way". |
| 16:38 | < ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: by "english spelling rules", trough should be pronounced "trow", not "trof". But it's an exception, and the exception that the gh in "ghoti" comes from. |
| 16:38 | <@celticminstrel> | So, "came" and "cam" are both perfectly regular spellings. |
| 16:39 | < ToxicFrog> | So, is "ghoti" one of those words that follows "english spelling rules", or is it another exception like "trough"? |
| 16:39 | < ToxicFrog> | You can't tell just by looking at it, you have to have a priori knowledge of which words are and aren't exceptions. |
| 16:39 | <@celticminstrel> | It's neither. It's a contrived example by someone who doesn't understand the rules. |
| 16:40 | <@ErikMesoy> | It's a contrived example by someone who does understand the rules and is mocking them. |
| 16:40 | < ToxicFrog> | I mispronounce a lot of words because I've only ever read them, never heard them spoken, and I've been a native english speaker for my entire three-decade life -- and every time this comes up at least one other person in the room says "oh yeah, me too" |
| 16:40 | <@celticminstrel> | I believe it's true about "trough" being "trow" if you go by the rules. However, that exception does not make it legal for "gh" to be pronounced as "f" at the beginning of a word. "gh" can only ever be pronounced "f" if it's at the end of a word. (Well, the end of a syllable - see "laughter".) |
| 16:40 | <@celticminstrel> | At the start of a word, "gh" is always pronounced as a hard "g". |
| 16:41 | < abudhabi> | Consider an example of a language that maps morphenes to phonemes regularly - say, Polish, where there are maximum two ways of interpreting a given morpheme, and the rules for the interpretation are regular (voiced and unvoiced consonants). |
| 16:41 | <@celticminstrel> | English has similar regular rules, it just doesn't quite consistently apply them. |
| 16:41 | < ToxicFrog> | Or, hell, japanese, where each morpheme has exactly one phonetic representation. |
| 16:41 | <@celticminstrel> | That's not true, ToxicFrog |
| 16:42 | <@ErikMesoy> | "quite consistently" is a gross understatement. English rules have so many exceptions that THE EXCEPTIONS HAVE RULES WITH THEIR OWN EXCEPTIONS. |
| 16:42 | < ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: I must confess I don't speak japanese, I'm just parotting what I've been told by people who do |
| 16:42 | < abudhabi> | ToxicFrog: There are like 1 or 2 exceptions for their phonetic script. |
| 16:43 | <@celticminstrel> | At least, if I recall correctly, ã can be pronounced either "wo" or "o" depending on context, and 㯠can be either "wa" or "ha" (or maybe the latter was ã, I forget). |
| 16:43 | <@celticminstrel> | When you get into kanji, it's even less consistent. |
| 16:43 | < ToxicFrog> | Is that "actual differences in pronounciation" or is it "no-one can agree on how to romanize it"? |
| 16:43 | <@celticminstrel> | It's actual differences in pronunciation. |
| 16:44 | <@celticminstrel> | It used to be pronounced one way, now it's pronounced differently but still written the same. |
| 16:44 | <@celticminstrel> | (The alternate pronunciation applies when used as a particle.) |
| 16:44 | <@celticminstrel> | Mind you, there aren't that many exceptions in the phonetic script, so it's far more consistent than English, at least. |
| 16:45 | <@celticminstrel> | (That said, the arrangement of hiragana into a table is misleading. You'd think all the S-row hiragana have S, right? Nope! ã is "shi", not "si".) |
| 16:45 | < abudhabi> | IIRC, someone did a study of incidence of dyslexy versus the consistency of phonemic orthography of their native language, and found a correlation between inconsistencies and higher rates of dyslexia. |
| 16:45 | <@ErikMesoy> | Clearly the English language needs to practice the metaphorical equivalent of assimilating its immigrant population. For example, "chauffeur" should be beaten into "shofur". |
| 16:46 | | * celticminstrel nods to ErikMesoy |
| 16:46 | < abudhabi> | (How do I even spell that condition?) |
| 16:46 | <@ErikMesoy> | (Inspired by Norwegian, which already bludgeoned the word into "sjåfør". Double special letter, but the writing now matches the speaking!) |
| 16:46 | <@celticminstrel> | Other languages do that already with their borrowings, there's no reason why English has to retain the foreign spellings. |
| 16:47 | <@celticminstrel> | Incidentally, it should not be spelled "shoffur". That would be pronounced with a short O like in "off". So says the rules. |
| 16:47 | <@celticminstrel> | (So, it would rhyme with shopper, at least in my dialect.) |
| 16:47 | <@[R]> | English did that initially IIRC to help identify the loanwords. Which is a useless function to provide |
| 16:47 | <@celticminstrel> | Did what? |
| 16:48 | <@[R]> | Keep the original spelling of loanwords |
| 16:48 | <@[R]> | IE: the spelling of the native language. |
| 16:48 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 16:48 | <@ErikMesoy> | Also, why do people keep saying there are five vowels in English? |
| 16:48 | <@ErikMesoy> | Does the word "why" not have a vowel in it? |
| 16:48 | <@celticminstrel> | There are five vowel letters. |
| 16:48 | <@celticminstrel> | The letter Y is wasted. |
| 16:48 | <@celticminstrel> | It's identical to I. |
| 16:48 | <@celticminstrel> | (At least when used as a vowel.) |
| 16:49 | <@celticminstrel> | (Of course, sometimes it's a consonant.) |
| 16:49 | <@celticminstrel> | However, there are not five vowels in English. |
| 16:49 | <@celticminstrel> | There's ten that can be spelled with single letters. |
| 16:49 | <@celticminstrel> | Then, uh... at least four more off the top of my head. (OO has two, then OW and OY.) |
| 16:50 | <@celticminstrel> | And of course, that's not counting schwa, which is two more right there. |
| 16:51 | <@[R]> | I had a teacher who attempted to defend the following two stances at once: "all words have vowels" "'Y' is never a vowel." |
| 16:51 | <@[R]> | What are the other four single-letter vowels? |
| 16:51 | <@celticminstrel> | Also, some words really don't have a vowel. Of course, those sorts of people will deny that those are words. |
| 16:52 | <@[R]> | Like "hmm"? |
| 16:52 | <@celticminstrel> | Yes. |
| 16:52 | <@celticminstrel> | [R]: You misunderstand. Each of A E I O U represents two distinct vowels. |
| 16:52 | <@celticminstrel> | So that's ten vowels with five letters. |
| 16:55 | <@[R]> | Ah |
| 16:55 | <@celticminstrel> | (I'm not counting Y here, because like I said it duplicates I.) |
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| 17:23 | <@simon`> | hello |
| 17:24 | <@[R]> | Hi |
| 17:26 | <@simon`> | I'm trying to diff two web pages to see if anything changed in the texting on those pages. currently I'm parsing the HTML document, stripping parts of the DOM that I expect to be irrelevant, then doing a line-based diff on them and using a C# library called diffplex that lets me do HTML side-by-side rendering (like vimdiff) |
| 17:27 | <@simon`> | but it catches all sorts of annoying stuff like single </div> lines, etc., so I'm thinking I could extract all strings, line them up and then diff that. only I'd deviate from my original stripped HTML presentation so much that I'm not sure how I'd visualize it then. |
| 17:28 | <@simon`> | any neat suggestions? |
| 17:29 | <@simon`> | (they're for a guy to sit and review if a set of terms of conditions on some website have changed.) |
| 17:33 | <@simon`> | There's a pretty awesome visual diff tool: https://github.com/BBC-News/wraith - but that's mostly useful for design changes, not so much textual content. |
| 17:35 | <@simon`> | I'm thinking: normalize the webpage into plaintext, diff that. |
| 17:38 | <@simon`> | as always, having monologues here really does help. thanks! |
| 17:40 | < catadroid> | This place is full of helpful rubber ducks :3 |
| 17:49 | <@simon`> | I'll quack to that! |
| 17:54 | < ToxicFrog> | It's pretty great for that, yeah |
| 18:17 | <@Wizard> | simon`: Might also want to see if you can find key areas by using class/ID selectors |
| 18:17 | <@Wizard> | Otherwise you'll get alerted to lots of garbage |
| 18:18 | <@simon`> | can I curry in C#? is Func<Arg1, Arg2, Result> equivalent to ML's Arg1 -> Arg2 -> Result? |
| 18:18 | <@simon`> | or even just (Arg1, Arg2) -> Result. can I have multiple arguments in my lambda this way? |
| 18:19 | <@simon`> | (I understand that C# doesn't have very good Tuple support yet.) |
| 18:19 | <@simon`> | I wanna fold a tree, so my accumulating function needs two arguments. |
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| 19:32 | <@simon`> | *grumble* |
| 19:32 | <@simon`> | now I know what I'd prefer the most. basically, a lynx/links class in C#. |
| 19:32 | <&McMartin> | simon`: In C# if you want to pass functions around, I think you use delegates? |
| 19:33 | <@simon`> | McMartin, yeah. just not sure what the type for a delegate with two arguments and a result was. Func<A, B, Result> seemed to work. |
| 19:33 | <&McMartin> | My C# is pretty minimal. I need to get on that. |
| 19:33 | <@simon`> | there's a bunch of ways to write that type, though, since apparently C# has gone through some revisions. |
| 19:33 | <@simon`> | before they had actual lambda support, they had the slightly less practical delegate syntax. |
| 19:36 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, though that one is more practical for when you're doing typedefs of callback types, and there's a multicast functionality in some of them which is actually pretty badass |
| 19:36 | <@simon`> | ok! |
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| 22:10 | <@[R]> | http://cube-drone.com/comics/c/c-how-they-run |
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| --- Log closed Sat Jun 13 00:00:20 2015 |