| --- Log opened Fri May 29 00:00:01 2015 |
| 00:00 | <@Reiv> | Quantum physics is now a real thing that needs to be dealt with in prototype CPU cores |
| 00:00 | <@Reiv> | The atomicity of our manufacture techniques are rapidly becoming *actual atoms* |
| 00:02 | <@gnolam> | <Alek> the LCD monitor was a triggering factor for display size and resolution growth. |
| 00:02 | <@gnolam> | Eh. Most monitors today don't have better resolution than old CRTs. |
| 00:02 | <@Reiv> | LCDs, however, improved rapidly ^.^ |
| 00:02 | <@Reiv> | I still remember the glory days of CRTs, where resolution was pretty much optional |
| 00:03 | <@Reiv> | You just started suffering on Hz instead |
| 00:04 | <&McMartin> | gnolam: I actually never had a 1080p CRT. |
| 00:04 | <@gnolam> | Well no. Since most of them were x1024.~ |
| 00:07 | <@gnolam> | Part of the reason I kept The Behemoth around for so long was that finding an LCD with a decent resolution was so damned hard. |
| 00:11 | <@gnolam> | And as for size... that's only been true for the last 3-4 years or so. Before that, you had to search hard or pay a _huge_ premium to get a monitor above the size of a decent CRT. It's just that widescreen inflated the numbers (because the diagonal is pretty much the worst measurement you can think of for screen size). |
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| 00:18 | <@Reiv> | Hey, it worked when everyone was measuring the same ratio! |
| 00:18 | <@Reiv> | Then it turns out LCDs can be made in arbitary proportions, and hypotenuses have unfortunate scaling quirks |
| 00:19 | <@gnolam> | It's still a stupid measurement, even if you're measuring the same ratio. |
| 00:19 | <@gnolam> | The only two measurements that make sense are area and height. |
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| 00:20 | <@gnolam> | One scales with the actual screen size and all what that entails, the other scales with perceived size. |
| 00:20 | <@gnolam> | The diagonal scales with... uh... |
| 00:22 | <@Reiv> | Height would be awful |
| 00:23 | <@Reiv> | You'd end up with the same problem we've got now, only in portrait mode~ |
| 00:23 | <@Reiv> | Area is good, but harder to 'read' |
| 00:23 | <&McMartin> | Diagonal scales with area if ratio is fixed, does it not? |
| 00:23 | <&McMartin> | Or a function of area |
| 00:23 | <@Reiv> | Right, which is why it worked until it didn't |
| 00:25 | <@gnolam> | Reiv: Except nobody's going to install a TV for VVS viewing. |
| 00:25 | <@gnolam> | "Harder to read"? |
| 00:27 | <@Reiv> | The number goes up awfully fast. |
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| 00:45 | < ToxicFrog> | Well, these days everything is 16:9 anyways, so I guess diagonal works again >.< |
| 00:45 | < ToxicFrog> | Honestly if the Chromebook Pixel had a better keyboard I'd be getting one of those for my next laptop just for the 3:2 screen. |
| 00:55 | <@Reiv> | bloody awful ratio, how'd we end up stuck with it |
| 00:56 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:57 | <&Derakon> | Home cinema TV manufacturers. |
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| 00:57 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 01:00 | <@Reiv> | Why did we let them get away with it |
| 01:00 | <&Derakon> | We are few, and they are many. :( |
| 01:15 | <@Reiv> | Surely not |
| 01:15 | <@Reiv> | PC users are the primary audience for PC monitors, surely |
| 01:15 | <@Alek> | hrm. but... were there any widescreen CRTs? |
| 01:18 | <&Derakon> | Reiv: the primary audience for monitor components is TV manufacturers. |
| 01:19 | <&Derakon> | PC display manufacturers just buy displays from factories that produce for both TVs and computers. |
| 01:19 | <&Derakon> | And then pop those displays into a frame, install buttons, logos, etc. |
| 01:19 | <&Derakon> | Most of the quality variation comes down to how picky the manufacturer is about the QA of the displays they buy. |
| 01:20 | <@Reiv> | Oh I see |
| 01:20 | <@Reiv> | So wait, refresh rates then |
| 01:20 | <@Reiv> | If they're buying TV monitors... |
| 01:21 | <&Derakon> | TV displays have always been capable of better than 24Hz refresh rates. |
| 01:21 | <&Derakon> | The NES was 60Hz, or 50Hz in PAL zones. |
| 01:23 | < ToxicFrog> | Reiv: modern LCDs are 60Hz or 85Hz, typically, not 120Hz like you'd see on a good CRT |
| 01:23 | < ToxicFrog> | (which is fine, because LCDs don't have the same kind of eye-stabbing effects at 60Hz that CRTs do) |
| 01:34 | <@Reiv> | So all the obsession over ms response rates, etc of a computer screen, comes down to QA stringency on TV monitors? |
| 01:35 | <&Derakon> | Mm, QA stringency is AIUI more for things like dead pixels. |
| 01:35 | <&Derakon> | I don't know what governs refresh rates. |
| 01:40 | <&Derakon> | Hm, though I can hazard a guess. |
| 01:40 | < ToxicFrog> | Reiv: different things. |
| 01:40 | <&Derakon> | Each individual LED in the display will have some kind of control wire hooked up to it that determines how bright that LED is. |
| 01:40 | < ToxicFrog> | Response time is the latency between the controller telling it to change a pixel and the pixel actually changing. |
| 01:40 | <&Derakon> | Refreshing the display involves updating the strength of each wire. |
| 01:40 | <&Derakon> | Yeah. |
| 01:40 | <&Derakon> | So you have the controller's speed, and the speed at which the LED can change state. |
| 01:41 | < ToxicFrog> | If you're gaming on, say, a 50ms panel (although I don't think any modern display has latency that bad), you'll see noticeable lag and ghosting even if it's refreshing at 60Hz. |
| 01:48 | <@Reiv> | Right, but, uh, how to phrase this |
| 01:48 | <@Reiv> | Do TVs care about response rate to nearly the same degree as PCs? |
| 01:48 | <&Derakon> | No. |
| 01:48 | <&Derakon> | Most TV content is at 24Hz. |
| 01:49 | <@Reiv> | If not, then given the assertion that PCs are TV monitors in different packaging, then where are the TV monitors showing up with PC-esque response rates? |
| 01:50 | <@Reiv> | I'm not being an ass, fwiw, I'm trying to reconcile my understanding of how the two industries interact. |
| 01:50 | <&Derakon> | Like I said earlier, the NES on old TVs had a 60Hz refresh rate. |
| 01:50 | <&Derakon> | It's just not usually used for TV content. |
| 01:51 | <&Derakon> | It's a question of the cameras used, not the devices the movies/whatever are displayed on. |
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| 02:11 | <&McMartin> | Everything from the Atari 2600 through the PS2 was 60Hz :) |
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| 02:29 | <@Reiv> | Okay, let me rethink |
| 02:30 | <@Reiv> | We keep talking about 'old stuff was done at 60Hz', which is fine, but also not LCDs |
| 02:30 | <@Reiv> | I am trying to reconcile why TV manufacturers would be bothering with PC-monitor-capable refresh rates if TVs don't care about refresh rates so fast, even if the olden stuff ran at 60Hz |
| 02:49 | <&Derakon> | I assume because fast refresh rates don't cost them anything. |
| 02:54 | | Reiver is now known as Orth |
| 03:05 | <&McMartin> | 60Hz was chosen not because humans liked it but because it meant they could sync to the power mains. |
| 03:06 | <&McMartin> | Also it was arguably 30Hz interlaced. |
| 03:06 | <@Reiv> | OK yes, um I am asking the wrong question |
| 03:06 | <@Reiv> | I get why we landed up with 60Hz on TVs in the grand old days of CRTs |
| 03:07 | <@Reiv> | Why do *modern TV* LCD displays have, apparently, response rates capable of gaming? |
| 03:16 | <@Reiv> | And does this mean you can legitimately skip the PC Monitor section and just buy a TV of suitable resolutions and cable ports instead? |
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| 03:16 | <&McMartin> | As for the latter: absolutely, I totally did this, it's what the Wii, the Linux box, and the Atari 2600 are hooked to |
| 03:17 | <~Vornicus> | Vash and I have a 42" TV screen I occasionally hook this machine to. |
| 03:17 | <&McMartin> | Number of spurious merge conflicts I had to resolve in git today: two |
| 03:17 | <~Vornicus> | It's... slightly annoying to IRC on |
| 03:17 | <&Derakon> | You may not be satisfied with the resolution you get. |
| 03:17 | <&Derakon> | But otherwise it ought to work fine. |
| 03:17 | <&McMartin> | Mainly it's important to have HDMI input. |
| 03:18 | <&McMartin> | HDMI 1080p is basically All Right. |
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| 03:18 | <~Vornicus> | I got 1080p on it |
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| 03:18 | < ToxicFrog> | o.O |
| 03:18 | <@Reiv> | Hm, because 1080p and HDMI on a TV monitor is probably Pretty Cheap even by pc monitor standards |
| 03:19 | <@Reiv> | And if I'm putting it on a mount, who cares about the adjustable stand right~ |
| 03:19 | <&McMartin> | And non-DRM'd HDMI is literally DVI with a different shaped plug |
| 03:19 | <@Reiv> | That seems a silly move |
| 03:20 | <@Alek> | doesn't HDMI also have an audio channel? |
| 03:20 | <@Alek> | I actually don't know if DVI does or doesn't. -_- |
| 03:20 | <&Derakon> | I don't know what prices are like in NZ, Reiv, but c.f. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824160168 |
| 03:21 | <&Derakon> | Which is an actual computer monitor, 1080p, for $190. |
| 03:21 | <&Derakon> | Amazon shows actual TVs of similar spec being more expensive. |
| 03:22 | <&McMartin> | Alek: Oh right, that too. |
| 03:22 | <&McMartin> | (DVI does not have audio on it) |
| 03:23 | <@Alek> | TVs also contain a tuner and the ability to process and display TV signals off multiple channels, generally. a little more in the way of components than plain displays have. >_> |
| 03:23 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 03:23 | <&McMartin> | I needed a TV for mine because I needed RF input as per cable boxes |
| 03:24 | <&McMartin> | So I could hook up the 8-bit machines ^_^ |
| 03:25 | | * Reiv pauses, eyes. |
| 03:25 | <@Reiv> | Oh, the price difference is 15%? Oh, right, GST. Thanks, NZ. |
| 03:25 | <@Reiv> | (I forgot our exchange rate had tanked again. Oh well.) |
| 03:26 | <@Reiv> | Is a 1080P monitor the way to go these days? I'm painfully aware that once bought, monitors tend to hang around a lot longer than PC hardware. |
| 03:26 | <&Derakon> | Larger resolutions tend to be markedly more expensive. |
| 03:26 | <&Derakon> | Because TVs don't come in those resolutions~ |
| 03:27 | <@Reiv> | right then |
| 03:27 | | * Reiv muses |
| 03:28 | <@Reiv> | If I drop to 24", I save a third the cost. |
| 03:29 | <@Reiv> | I have a 24" at work, I don't think I'd miss going even bigger, especially at 1080p where the monitor sharpness is already noticable |
| 03:29 | <&Derakon> | I have a 27" at home; the main difference compared to 24" is being able to sit at a more comfortable distance. |
| 03:30 | <@Reiv> | What distance is that? |
| 03:30 | <&Derakon> | That's probably solvable with good desk ergonomics though. |
| 03:30 | <&Derakon> | Mmm, a couple feet? |
| 03:30 | <@Reiv> | I'm used to having the monitor literally within arms reach |
| 03:30 | <&Derakon> | Yeah, if I stretch my arm out my fingers brush against the monitor. |
| 03:30 | <@Reiv> | Ditto |
| 03:30 | <@Reiv> | I conviniently have a 24" at work with a 22" outrigger, both are at arms reach as I type this |
| 03:31 | <@Reiv> | ... or is it, hm |
| 03:31 | | * Reiv actually looks them up |
| 03:34 | <@Reiv> | aha |
| 03:34 | <@Reiv> | One is 21.5, the other 24 actual |
| 03:34 | <@Reiv> | Right, anyway |
| 03:35 | <@Reiv> | The sharpness on the 21.5 is noticably better than the 24 |
| 03:35 | <@Reiv> | I would worry that 27 would be fuzzier again, albeit visually impressive. |
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| --- Log closed Fri May 29 06:30:00 2015 |
| --- Log opened Fri May 29 06:30:06 2015 |
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| 06:31 | | *.Nightstar.Net changed the topic of #code to: Welcome to #Code! || Ask, then hang about till someone appears who can help: We have high latency, but excellent signal. || We <3 newbies. || Rants and monologues are encouraged; many cores, no waiting || Pastebin: http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/ (Antispam question: answer 'yes') |
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| 10:38 | <@TheWatcher> | FINALLY |
| 10:38 | <@TheWatcher> | Gods fucking damnit |
| 10:39 | <@TheWatcher> | Must've taken me a good 5 bloody hours to trace this |
| 10:53 | < catadroid> | yaay |
| 10:54 | | * catadroid releases the party streamers and blood sacrifices |
| 11:02 | <@TheWatcher> | Turns out that two variables being returned by the mediawiki API are not containing the values they should have, and causing this pile of javascript to fail hilariously.... so now I need to work out why the API isn't behaving, and I have a very horrible feeling it may be something to do with PHP's JSON handling... |
| 11:06 | | Echoes-- [rolly@Nightstar-eo05bk.co.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 11:11 | < catadroid> | This workplace has become a lot nicer since we started self publishing |
| 11:11 | <@TheWatcher> | Self publishing? |
| 11:12 | <@TheWatcher> | As in, not working for a conventional publisher? |
| 11:17 | < catadroid> | As in we're subject to our own whims not being controlled by a third party with the money |
| 11:17 | | * TheWatcher nod |
| 11:22 | < catadroid> | Also the coffee machines are now free |
| 11:22 | < catadroid> | Which is nice |
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| 11:52 | <@TheWatcher> | ... and the rabbit hole goes deeper! |
| 11:52 | <@TheWatcher> | Now I'm out of the extension code and into the wonderful wide world of th emediawiki API class hierarchy |
| 11:52 | <@TheWatcher> | (Kill me now) |
| 11:53 | < abudhabi> | Emetic wiki, amirite? |
| 12:01 | <@TheWatcher> | I have but one thing to say about this process: |
| 12:02 | <@TheWatcher> | I DID NOT WANT TO KNOW ALL THIS |
| 12:02 | <@TheWatcher> | Ugh |
| 12:34 | <@TheWatcher> | BannerChoiceDataProvider::getChoices() is returning the data correctly, with display_anon and display_account containing boolean values... but by the time that gets to FormatJson::encode on the way out, those booleans have somehow switched to empty strings, what |
| 13:05 | | * TheWatcher finally manages to narrow the buttfuckery down to ApiResult::applyTransformations, tries to work out WTF is going on in there |
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| 13:16 | <@TheWatcher> | ... |
| 13:16 | <@TheWatcher> | Godsdamnit |
| 13:16 | < catalyst> | They frequently do |
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| 13:24 | <@TheWatcher> | Eyup, I've just found a hilariously nasty MediaWiki bug that screws up any use of boolean values in API results |
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| 14:59 | | * Wizard and coworkers cheerfully reorganize architectures two working days before demo |
| 14:59 | <@Wizard> | Can't go wrong! |
| 15:00 | <@TheWatcher> | Sounds like an awesome plan |
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| 16:18 | <@io\bleh> | http://rymden.nu/exceptions.html |
| 16:58 | < kourbou> | io: lol |
| 17:03 | < ToxicFrog> | McMartin: I have successfully built a .so from Rust with a function callable from C, which passes it a C struct to be filled in by Rust code. |
| 17:03 | < ToxicFrog> | It turns out to be actually pretty easy. |
| 17:03 | < ToxicFrog> | ...so far. |
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| 17:21 | < gizmore> | I don´t like the exeptions.html.... i throw.... a http://rymden.nu/exceptions.html#UnsupportedFlavorException |
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| 21:05 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: Nice |
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| 21:32 | <&McMartin> | I suppose it is LLVM-backed, so as long as the C code was made with clang everything should just work |
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| 22:22 | < abudhabi> | Can anyone suggest a free, offline PDF converter? |
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| 22:48 | <@TheWatcher> | Convert to what? |
| 22:52 | < abudhabi> | Ideally, PPT. But just about anything that isn't PDF will do, because you can generally convert those to other things much more easily. |
| 22:52 | < abudhabi> | (What kind of evil mind came up with the bullshit that is PDF, anyway?) |
| 22:55 | <@Tamber> | Adobe. |
| 22:55 | <@Tamber> | I'm more concerned by the bullshit that is PPT~ |
| 22:56 | <@TheWatcher> | Uh, yeah. Why on earth would you want to convert a PDF to powerpoint? |
| 22:58 | < abudhabi> | Because this was a PPT converted to PDF, but the PPT was lost, and now they want to reuse it. |
| 22:58 | < abudhabi> | Presumably with editing and not remaking the thing from scratch. |
| 22:59 | <@TheWatcher> | I recommend petitioning a diety, then. |
| 22:59 | <@TheWatcher> | *deity |
| 23:00 | < ToxicFrog> | They're going to have a really bad time, then, because PDF is a compilation target. |
| 23:00 | < abudhabi> | I sort of managed something when I found a program for adding pages to PDFs, and another program to convert PDF to DOC. It got converted, but it came out absolute unaligned shit. |
| 23:00 | < ToxicFrog> | Figuring out what the original looked like is nontrivial and a lot of information is discarded when emitting the PDF. |
| 23:00 | < abudhabi> | (The page adding thing in order to bypass the trial version 50% of document only.) |
| 23:01 | < abudhabi> | Apparently Word 2013 has a converter built-in, but I don't have that. |
| 23:02 | < ToxicFrog> | Your best bet may be to use pdftext/pdfimages to extract the content and then manually recreate the layout/formatting. |
| 23:02 | < ToxicFrog> | Perhaps you could also try feeding it to Google Drive and telling it that it's a presentation? No idea if it would even let you do that, though. |
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| --- Log closed Sat May 30 00:00:16 2015 |