| --- Log opened Tue May 05 00:00:43 2015 |
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| 02:00 | <&McMartin> | Woot |
| 02:00 | | * McMartin gets "click on object" working in Monocle. |
| 02:00 | <~Vornicus> | Woot |
| 02:00 | <&McMartin> | Now to do something with it beyond a unit test. |
| 02:01 | <&McMartin> | (Technically this is now enough to implement hex inverter) |
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| 02:23 | <&McMartin> | Hey |
| 02:23 | <&McMartin> | This can *also* be used to pre-test object locations for collisions |
| 02:25 | <~Vornicus> | Hooray |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | Now what I'm going to need are a way to make this be more "virtual" |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | so I can have different kinds of hitboxes with different kinds of collision algorithms and still have it work |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | Right now there is box-hits-box and point-in-box |
| 02:31 | <&McMartin> | I think I also want circle (hence the discussion a few days back) and pixel mask |
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| 02:35 | <&Derakon> | Whyyyy are you doing your own physics ;_; |
| 02:38 | <&McMartin> | Because box2d is Wrong |
| 02:38 | < Reiv_> | Because not enough game engines implement their physics using pi as a constant |
| 02:39 | <&McMartin> | Because "being a cheap replacement for the basics of GameMaker" was the goal |
| 02:39 | < Reiv_> | Oh sure, they use it for circles and spheres and even the odd cone, maybe |
| 02:39 | <&McMartin> | I'm not doing my own physics |
| 02:39 | <&McMartin> | I'm doing my own geometry |
| 02:39 | <&McMartin> | Because getting that without getting a ton of bullshit I don't want was exactly the problem. |
| 02:39 | <&Derakon> | Does that somehow not imply doing your own collision detection and response? |
| 02:39 | <&McMartin> | Yes |
| 02:39 | < Reiv_> | But there's a whole world out there! Let's use it to measure distance, and describe momentum! We should track pixels and volume and weights as multiples of pi, too. |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | It implies in particular that "response" occurs nowhere in it |
| 02:40 | <&Derakon> | So how are you ensuring that your characters don't fall through the ground? |
| 02:40 | < Reiv_> | And then store it as a single float, because eh, close enough right |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | Monocle doesn't know what "characters" or "ground" are. |
| 02:41 | <&McMartin> | I mean, are you actually asking "why are not just using GameMaker or HaxeFlixel or" or are you asking something more specific |
| 02:41 | <&McMartin> | Because, well, both of those *also* require you to write your own collision response and physics because relying on computerized physics engines is made entirely of hilarious failure |
| 02:41 | <&Derakon> | Kind of? Redoing the whole "is this object intersecting this other object, and if so, what should be done about it" is something I have ultimately concluded is not a useful way to spend my time. |
| 02:41 | <&Derakon> | It's been solved hundreds of times by more qualified people. |
| 02:42 | <&Derakon> | And there are always annoying edge cases that have to be carefully handled. It took me something like a month before Jetblade's collision detection/response code was not routinely bugging out. |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | I'm solving an incredibly cheap subset that's good enough for the things I often want to do and reimplementation of the known-best solution is cheaper than integrating third party libraries |
| 02:42 | | * Derakon shrugs. "Up to you." |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | Yes. Jetblade was solving a vastly harder problem than the one Monocle provides. |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | The answer for ensuring characters don't fall through the ground for Dapper Delver is "characters and ground components are axis-aligned bounding boxes of fixed proportions and larger than their maximum speed." |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | None of this "you would have clipped through convex polygons" stuff |
| 02:43 | <&Derakon> | No slopes? |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | Also, you may recall FallOver, which is also what you get when you just throw the stock physics solution at a platformer world |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | No, but slopes can be cheated too. |
| 02:44 | < Reiv_> | Is this a portion of Monocle that will have been written simplistically enough that you can tear it out and put your own in instead |
| 02:44 | < Reiv_> | Er, cleanly enough |
| 02:44 | <&Derakon> | Yyyyes, but FallOver was explicitly "you are controlling a box with all physics enabled and no constraints" |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | So |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | Adding constraints |
| 02:44 | <&Derakon> | The only actual problem with it was that, well, you could fall over~ |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | == "having to write your own collision responses" |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | No, the rest of the controls were also super-janky~ |
| 02:45 | <&Derakon> | I never actually played it myself~ |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | I've never actually seen the hairwalk rule written down but it is iron-hard in player expectations |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | Which is to say |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | If you are running, and jump, and bounce off the ceiling |
| 02:45 | < Reiv_> | hairwalk? |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | The rule is that you ascend to the ceiling and then slide along it the remainder of your horizontal motion |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | Otherwise the result is "obviously wrong" |
| 02:45 | <&Derakon> | Er? |
| 02:45 | < Reiv_> | ... I've never seen that |
| 02:46 | <&McMartin> | Yes you have |
| 02:46 | < Reiv_> | I have? |
| 02:46 | <&McMartin> | Mario, Sonic, and Mega Man all do it |
| 02:46 | <&Derakon> | Many, many games just kill your vertical velocity when you bump your head. |
| 02:46 | <&McMartin> | Yes |
| 02:46 | <&McMartin> | s/just kill/kill just/, to be precise |
| 02:46 | <&Derakon> | And then you immediately start accelerating back down. |
| 02:46 | < Reiv_> | Yeah |
| 02:46 | <&Derakon> | Oh, you mean FallOver kills your horizontal velocity too? |
| 02:46 | <&McMartin> | It kills your velocity in your direction of travel. |
| 02:47 | <&McMartin> | This produces noticable animation hitches and it's a recognizable rookie mistake in a lot of platformers that weren't paying enough attention. |
| 02:47 | <&McMartin> | This almost certainly started out as a programming hack in the 8-bit era, but it is ingrained *incredibly hard*. |
| 02:47 | <&McMartin> | *and actually, in fallover you usually end up also picking up some rotational momentum from hitting the ceiling while moving horizontally~) |
| 02:48 | < Reiv_> | Do you mean the fact that when you hit the ceiling, you continue to move forward on the descent? |
| 02:48 | <&McMartin> | Almost but not quite |
| 02:48 | <&McMartin> | Which I mean is that if you run down a low-ceilinged corridor and keep jumping continuously and bouncing off the ceiling as you do |
| 02:48 | <&McMartin> | That the horizontal component of your speed never changes |
| 02:48 | <&McMartin> | That each frame you have moved the same number of pixels |
| 02:49 | <&McMartin> | If you do not ensure this - by killing only the vertical component of the velocity, which makes "move to point of collision" mechanics in stock engines like Box2d and GameMaker &c give the wrong answer - the animation visibly hitches when you hit the ceiling |
| 02:49 | <&McMartin> | So the real effect is that you have moved up to hit the ceiling and then slid along it. |
| 02:50 | <&McMartin> | (What you actually did back in Days Of Old was intersected a wall and then descended until you were no longer intersecting one) |
| 02:51 | <&McMartin> | Derakon: But yeah, my explorations into platformer design start from and went to a different place than JetBlade did, and thus reached nearly-opposite conclusions |
| 02:51 | <&McMartin> | To wit, that the physics of a 2D platformer *have* to be carefully designed by the designer in concert with the world they build |
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| 02:51 | <&McMartin> | But this isn't supposed to just be for that, either |
| 02:52 | <&McMartin> | It's also supposed to be a half-assed drop-in replacement for more heavyweight things like physicsfs |
| 02:52 | <&McMartin> | And bits of stuff like Flixel |
| 02:52 | <&Derakon> | physicsfs sounds like the worst possible file system. |
| 02:52 | <&McMartin> | The name is misleading |
| 02:52 | <@Namegduf> | s/worst/best/ |
| 02:53 | <&McMartin> | It is in fact a filesystem library |
| 02:53 | <&McMartin> | It's a super-generic packaging system that presents everything to its clients as if they were files. |
| 02:53 | <@Namegduf> | Plan 9 called... they want to hang out sometime. |
| 02:54 | <&McMartin> | They're not a library you can just casually toss in to Dungeons of Dredmor and suddenly have modding support |
| 02:54 | <&McMartin> | Also, that particular insight is usually credited to Unix, not Plan 9~ |
| 02:54 | <@Namegduf> | Hm, neat. |
| 02:55 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah, but Plan 9 actually tried to implement it. |
| 02:55 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, so, "I want to stick a zipfile in the install directory and have it be Full Of Stuff" |
| 02:55 | <@Namegduf> | Which was... interesting. |
| 02:55 | <&McMartin> | "And then have the game code just treat it like a directory" |
| 02:55 | <&McMartin> | This is where physicsfs Just Works |
| 02:55 | <@Namegduf> | That's pretty neat. |
| 02:55 | <&McMartin> | But it's also comically enormous overkill if you just want that |
| 02:56 | <&McMartin> | Monocle is both my reinvent-the-wheel-just-enough project, my learn-SDL2 project, and my design-sensible-APIs project. |
| 02:56 | <&McMartin> | While being written in C |
| 02:56 | <&McMartin> | That's a challenge~ |
| 02:56 | <&McMartin> | But being a sensible C API means having your core operations be in forms that can be easily turned into whatever language is linking against you wants, by *that* language, instead of by you |
| 02:57 | <&McMartin> | So Monocle is based around configuring what you want an event stream to look like, and then consuming that event stream. |
| 02:57 | <&McMartin> | Maybe those will be callbacks. Maybe they'll be method invocations. That Isn't Monocle's Problem. |
| 02:57 | <&McMartin> | (In this, it actually follows SDL itself pretty closely.) |
| 02:59 | <&McMartin> | But yeah |
| 02:59 | <&McMartin> | The immediate, original impetus for Monocle was that I was trying to work on Dapper Delver and Every Single Full-Scale Game Engine available to me either assumed I was an actual studio, or made assumptions so inconvenient that I was going to have to reimplement the world in its own scripting language |
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| 03:00 | <~Vornicus> | "an actual studio" how? |
| 03:00 | <&McMartin> | So, Unity tutorials tend to handle graphics by having step 1 be "so, import your Maya atoms" |
| 03:00 | <&Derakon> | When I get back to working on Jetblade, my current plan is to use Unity but to do so by finding/buying a pre-existing 2D platformer framework. |
| 03:01 | <&Derakon> | Such things exist and aren't expensive. |
| 03:01 | <&Derakon> | And then I can basically just ignore 95% of Unity's widgets and just use its cross-platform build/deploy features~ |
| 03:01 | <&McMartin> | Jetblade is trying to be more like Rochard than it is like VVVVVV though. |
| 03:01 | <&Derakon> | Ehh, not really. |
| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | (Also please don't be like Rochard) |
| 03:02 | <~Vornicus> | I keep reading that like it's french |
| 03:02 | <&Derakon> | The detailed collision stuff was mostly because I wanted to have smooth slopes and the ability to stand on enemies and so on. |
| 03:03 | < Reiv_> | Rochard? |
| 03:04 | <&McMartin> | (the cheat for slops is to correct the height if you're embedded in a slope after a tentative move, and to check to see if there's a slope within Y of you if you are in a ground-air transition and adjust if so) |
| 03:04 | <&McMartin> | Rochard was an incredibly uninspired platformer that was one of Unity 4's "launch titles", as it were |
| 03:04 | <&Derakon> | I enjoyed it. |
| 03:04 | <&Derakon> | It was basically a 2D action platformer with a gravity gun. |
| 03:04 | < Reiv_> | Idly, when did Maya become the main tool of choice; I had thought LightWave was the juggernaught |
| 03:04 | <&Derakon> | It wasn't art, but it was fun. |
| 03:05 | <&McMartin> | I think the large studios had been using it for basically forever |
| 03:05 | <&McMartin> | Since ISTR that Grim Fandango Remastered in fact just pulled in their old meshes and went to town |
| 03:06 | <~Vornicus> | yeah, maya's been around forever |
| 03:07 | < Reiv_> | Weird, I didn't know that Maya was The Game Modelling Software Of Choice when I was back at uni; there were a variety of pro/con style debates. I get the feeling it was Actually Photoshop? |
| 03:07 | < Reiv_> | In terms of 'this /is/ what you use', as it were |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | Photoshop is too, but that's for the 2D components >_> |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | And yeah |
| 03:07 | <~Vornicus> | note that unity can import lightwave and blender as well, as far as I am aware |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | The last time I looked at Unity's 2D features it was "start by getting all your photoshop stuff over here so we can import it and" |
| 03:08 | < Reiv_> | Vornicus: Right then |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | If I were to use Unity I would end up purchasing all the artwork~ |
| 03:09 | <~Vornicus> | Straight up PNGs also import just fine |
| 03:09 | <&McMartin> | Yup |
| 03:09 | <&McMartin> | Which as a rule I'd be making in Game Maker's toolkit, because making pixel art in GIMP is kind of a royal pain especially when you aren't an artist to begin with |
| 03:10 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey, that would be a simple thing to implement |
| 03:10 | <&McMartin> | So, um |
| 03:10 | <&McMartin> | There's a puzzle sort where you have a grid of squares |
| 03:11 | <&McMartin> | Which all start out in the 'off' state |
| 03:11 | <&McMartin> | Selecting a square toggles its state, and the state of its NSEW neighbors |
| 03:11 | <&McMartin> | The goal is turn all the squares on |
| 03:11 | <&McMartin> | What is the name of this puzzle? |
| 03:11 | <&Derakon> | Certain levels of Q-BERT~ |
| 03:12 | <&McMartin> | The topology's a little different~ |
| 03:12 | <~Vornicus> | Lights Out |
| 03:12 | <&McMartin> | (Also, re: Box2D and friends in platformers; my favorite case of this was a case where the developer forgot to give the ground infinite mass) |
| 03:12 | <~Vornicus> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lights_Out_%28game%29 |
| 03:13 | <&McMartin> | (Which meant that when you jumped, the whole world started drifting down a bit because of Newton's Third) |
| 03:13 | <&Derakon> | Oh dear. |
| 03:14 | <~Vornicus> | Silly people, just don't give it a physics aspect |
| 03:16 | <~Vornicus> | gnarg! JS doesn't have keys other than numbers and strings. Angerface! |
| 03:18 | < [R]> | Vornicus: ? |
| 03:20 | <~Vornicus> | just as well anyway, everything else is mutable. |
| 03:21 | <~Vornicus> | Doing a thing where, in python, I'd be usingg a dictionary keyed by tuples |
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| 03:21 | <&Derakon> | It makes me sad how few popular languages have proper tuple support. |
| 03:22 | < [R]> | Why's that even important? |
| 03:23 | <&Derakon> | Because tuples are awesome and useful. |
| 03:23 | <&Derakon> | They're a lightweight way to group related items. |
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| 03:24 | <~Vornicus> | Tuples, frozensets, arbitrary objects with appropriately set __hash__ and __eq__ - the moment I can use a thing as a dictionary key it becomes infinitely more powerful. |
| 04:16 | | * McMartin grumps |
| 04:16 | <&McMartin> | OK, I need to build a program to assist with this |
| 04:16 | <&McMartin> | Trying to run lights-out by hand is not working out for me |
| 04:17 | <&Derakon> | http://www.ueda.info.waseda.ac.jp/~n-kato/lightsout/ |
| 04:17 | <&Derakon> | And I'm sure there are many more such puzzles online; this was just the first hit. |
| 04:18 | <&McMartin> | There we go |
| 04:18 | <&McMartin> | Now I can't figure out where my error was~ |
| 04:18 | <&McMartin> | Other than "In transcription somewhere" |
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| 04:34 | <&McMartin> | OK, that is cool |
| 04:35 | <&McMartin> | So, the solution to a 5x5 lights-out puzzle where the start condition is "every light is lit" |
| 04:35 | <&McMartin> | Wiki gives two vectors that you can add to any solution, individually or together, that produce the other solutions. |
| 04:35 | <&McMartin> | Adding those in produces all the rotations of the solution. |
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| 06:43 | <&McMartin> | It is the year 2015. |
| 06:43 | <&McMartin> | For the first time I have used the DEF FN command in the 1982 MS BASIC dialect. |
| 06:47 | <&McMartin> | 0 DEF FNJ(P)=(NOT PEEK(56322-P))AND31:PRINT FNJ(1),FNJ(2):GOTO |
| 06:48 | <&McMartin> | A one-line program that dumps the joystick state continuously |
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| 06:59 | < abudhabi> | Nice. |
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| 10:33 | | * Wizard finds himself using the debugger, tries to make seeing the program flow more efficient |
| 10:33 | <@Wizard> | yes "s" | rails server > ../debug.txt |
| 10:33 | <@Wizard> | I find myself doing this somewhat often and it's always equally great |
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| 12:59 | <@Tarinaky> | https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos_games?%2Fv2=&sort=-downloads This is cool. |
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| 13:13 | | * abudhabi removes a console.log("LOL"); from production code. |
| 13:18 | <@Tarinaky> | You shouldn't be editing production code. |
| 13:23 | < abudhabi> | I'm not. |
| 13:28 | <@Tarinaky> | That's... not what you just said. |
| 13:28 | < catadroid`> | heh |
| 13:29 | < ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: there is a difference between "editing production code" and "editing code in production". |
| 13:30 | <@Tarinaky> | And ad said the former. |
| 13:30 | <@Tarinaky> | Confusing. |
| 13:31 | < abudhabi> | There was a console.log("LOL"); in the production code. Now there is not. I have removed it, but I have never touched the production code itself, except to replace the whole thing. |
| 13:32 | < abudhabi> | I have technically, said neither. |
| 13:32 | < abudhabi> | +, |
| 13:32 | <@froztbyte> | -+, |
| 13:32 | | * ToxicFrog pulls the eject handle, goes to get breakfast |
| 13:32 | <@froztbyte> | ToxicFrog: a marvellous idea |
| 13:32 | <@froztbyte> | ToxicFrog: bring me some |
| 13:32 | | catadroid` is now known as catadroid |
| 13:39 | <@TheWatcher> | ... aren't you in .za? Isn't it 14:40 there? |
| 14:17 | <@froztbyte> | yes |
| 14:17 | <@froztbyte> | correct on both counts |
| 14:18 | <@TheWatcher> | I see. So, uh, late breakfast then?~ |
| 14:18 | | * froztbyte isn't very good at this food thing |
| 14:18 | <@TheWatcher> | Fair enough! |
| 14:18 | <@froztbyte> | it's relatively common for me to forget to each for a day or two |
| 14:18 | <@froztbyte> | not that I'm not hungry or don't sense the hunger or whatever |
| 14:19 | <@froztbyte> | I just forget, or it's too much effort, or inconvenient timing, or ... |
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| 19:48 | <&McMartin> | Tarinaky: Oh hey, are they actually providing downloads now? Neat. They only let you stream DOSBox-in-the-browser the last time I got bit by the Sorcerian bug |
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| 21:48 | | * TheWatcher rails at Irssi's shit API documentation |
| 21:48 | <@TheWatcher> | Should not need to RTFS to do this shit... |
| 21:49 | < abudhabi> | Is it shittier than the user manual? |
| 21:49 | <@celticminstrel> | What's the S mean? |
| 21:49 | < abudhabi> | Source. |
| 21:49 | <@celticminstrel> | Ahhh. |
| 21:50 | < abudhabi> | Because it is kinda annoying that I find it easier to edit the config files directly than to edit the settings with the commands provided at the frontend. |
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| 22:32 | <@TheWatcher> | Fuckit, time to just experiment and hope I don't break something hilariously |
| 23:11 | < catalyst> | that's the spirit |
| 23:18 | <&McMartin> | Science! |
| 23:23 | <@TheWatcher> | Indeed. |
| 23:23 | <@TheWatcher> | And I haven't crashed it yet, so that's good. |
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| --- Log closed Wed May 06 00:00:59 2015 |