| --- Log opened Fri May 01 00:00:40 2015 |
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| 01:14 | | * Vornicus fiddles with graphviz, trying to figure out how to gently prod the routing |
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| 03:54 | | * Vornicus hunts down redundant prerequisites now that he notices they exist |
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| 07:24 | | * TheWatcher ponders the Memoirs of Vornicus: Big Game Hunter, tracking the trail of the elusive Nonrquiritur Praeexigitur across the great Code Plains. |
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| 20:28 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 40 nicks [22 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 18 normal] |
| 20:29 | | * TheWatcher arghs, wants to play KSP, but really really needs to get some progress made on INDELIBLE TRUE CHAOS |
| 20:30 | < catalyst> | Write on |
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| 20:30 | | * TheWatcher sighs, launches emacs, brings the atomic batteries to power, and turbines to speed |
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| 20:48 | < ToxicFrog> | Ok, I have a C++ question here. |
| 20:49 | < ToxicFrog> | Code greatly simplified: |
| 20:49 | < catadroid> | (it would be amusing if there was no follow up post) |
| 20:50 | <&McMartin> | (That's the most simplified of all!) |
| 20:50 | < ToxicFrog> | /* in first file */ string foo = "waffles"; const string get_foo() { return foo; } |
| 20:50 | <@TheWatcher> | (Zen and the Art of C++ Coding~) |
| 20:50 | < ToxicFrog> | get_foo is exported, foo isn't. |
| 20:50 | <&McMartin> | What scope are those at? |
| 20:50 | <&McMartin> | So, file scope |
| 20:51 | < ToxicFrog> | foo is in an anon namespace, get_foo is in a public namespace with corresponding header etc. |
| 20:51 | <&McMartin> | We're already playing with fire here, as it happens |
| 20:51 | <&McMartin> | But go on |
| 20:52 | < ToxicFrog> | /* in second file */ const char * get_my_foo() { const string& foo = get_foo(); LOG << foo; /* displays correct value */ return foo.c_str(); } |
| 20:52 | < ToxicFrog> | /* in main */ LOG << get_my_foo(); /* displays garbage */ |
| 20:52 | <&McMartin> | OK, there are several bits where I'd be making code-review marks |
| 20:53 | < ToxicFrog> | I would expect that foo in get_my_foo would be a ref to foo in the first file, and thus c_str() would return a pointer that's valid even after the function returns. |
| 20:53 | <&McMartin> | But the reason it's failing is that foo is being destroyed as you return it. c_str() is not freshly-allocated. |
| 20:53 | <&McMartin> | Here's where we get to the rest of this |
| 20:53 | <@Wizard> | https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2015/04/30/deprecating-non-secure-http/ |
| 20:53 | < catadroid> | the pointer isn't valid because get_foo is returning by value |
| 20:53 | <&McMartin> | get_foo returns a string, not a string&, so that's a copy constructor call |
| 20:54 | <&McMartin> | And then the "playing with fire" bit is that it's quite common for C++ style guides to outright forbid initializing static file-scoped objects. |
| 20:54 | <&McMartin> | "C++ globals are a horror show" are about 90% of the reason singleton classes aren't a strict decrease in code quality |
| 20:54 | < ToxicFrog> | Yeah, that's not in the original. |
| 20:55 | < ToxicFrog> | Ok, so the "const string&" part in get_my_foo means I get a reference to a copy of the original, not a reference to the original? |
| 20:55 | <&McMartin> | Er, your code as posted was not string& |
| 20:55 | <&McMartin> | Look at your first file |
| 20:56 | <&McMartin> | That "return foo;" is going to be a copy constructor call |
| 20:56 | <&McMartin> | That said |
| 20:56 | <&McMartin> | I also think that the C++ compiler is allowed to trash the memory used by foo.c_str() the instant foo leaves scope |
| 20:57 | < ToxicFrog> | McMartin: right, but in "get_my_foo" I assign the return value to a "const string&" |
| 20:57 | < ToxicFrog> | So which one wins? |
| 20:57 | < ToxicFrog> | I have something returning "const string" which is then assigned to a "const string&" |
| 20:57 | <&McMartin> | They happen in sequence. |
| 20:57 | <&McMartin> | the thing returning const string *itself calls the copy constructor* while returning |
| 20:57 | <&McMartin> | Then the result of that is anonymous in the caller, and gets a reference to it. |
| 20:57 | < catadroid> | const refs are allowed to construct values as a specisl case so you can default initialise them iirc |
| 20:58 | <&McMartin> | (C++11 cares about this and has extra type gadgets to distinguish them) |
| 20:58 | < catadroid> | special* |
| 20:58 | <&McMartin> | (However, AIUI Google's C++ style guides forbid delving into that corner of C++11) |
| 20:58 | <&McMartin> | That temporary copied value has the same lifetime as foo itself |
| 20:59 | <&McMartin> | If you aren't making use of move constructors and similar C++11 stuff, C++'s great weakness is that copy construction happens all over the frickin' place |
| 20:59 | < catadroid> | (one of) |
| 20:59 | <&McMartin> | (And in this precise case, in fact, my actual suggestion as a code reviewer would be "foo should be a const char * const") |
| 21:00 | | * catadroid concurs |
| 21:01 | < ToxicFrog> | Ok, so what happens here is, basically, foo gets copied, and then I get a reference to that (anonymous) copy, which is destroyed when the reference leaves scope. |
| 21:01 | < ToxicFrog> | Yes? |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | Right. |
| 21:01 | < ToxicFrog> | And yeah, a large part of this is that I'm having to work within existing APIs |
| 21:01 | | Checkmate [Z@Nightstar-ev6.6um.94.83.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 21:01 | < ToxicFrog> | So I have a thing over here that has to return a const string, and a thing over there that has to get that const string and return a const char * |
| 21:02 | < catadroid> | hm. |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | Does it have to literally bea const char *, or can it be a std::shared_ptr<char>? |
| 21:02 | < ToxicFrog> | And my options are "figure out a way around that", "change the thing over here so that I can get at the underlying c_str", or "change the core experiments framework and get approval from the like 15 teams this will affect" |
| 21:02 | < ToxicFrog> | McMartin: that's option 3 |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | Hrm |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | OK, let's back up |
| 21:03 | < catadroid> | I'm not sure that you can do anything I'd recommend doing in a sane code base to get at the original pointer |
| 21:03 | <&McMartin> | You said "and return a const char *" |
| 21:03 | <&McMartin> | What does that mean in practice? |
| 21:03 | <&McMartin> | In C you can't just say that, you have to say what the requirement is for freeing it, if any |
| 21:03 | <&McMartin> | Or whether it can escape, or whatever |
| 21:03 | <&McMartin> | Is this a heap const char * that may be freed? |
| 21:03 | <&McMartin> | Is it guaranteed to live forever so that returning it means, effectively, that it leaks? |
| 21:04 | <&McMartin> | (Except not because it is for all practical purposes a single piece of static data) |
| 21:04 | <&McMartin> | Oh, also |
| 21:04 | <&McMartin> | You said "so I can get at the underlying c_str" |
| 21:04 | <&McMartin> | There isn't one of those. std::string has different semantics than const char * |
| 21:04 | < ToxicFrog> | McMartin: I have an interface that defines a method with the signature "const char * get_my_foo() const". This pointer is to a piece of (effectively) static data; the caller can't free or change it and it is valid for the lifetime of the enclosing activity. |
| 21:05 | < ToxicFrog> | I am implementing this, and the only place to actually get that data is from an API with the signature "const string get_foo() const" |
| 21:05 | <&McMartin> | I would strdup() the result of c_str and put that in a place with a lifetime that matches the lifetime of foo itself. |
| 21:05 | <&McMartin> | And I would do that exactly once, which may have multithreading implications. |
| 21:05 | < ToxicFrog> | And yeah, by "underlying c_str" I meant "the results of foo.c_str() on the original foo" |
| 21:05 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 21:06 | <&McMartin> | The result of foo.c_str() is only guaranteed to be valid until the next method call on foo, anywhere |
| 21:06 | <&McMartin> | So if you need unlimited extent of the result you must copy it |
| 21:07 | <&McMartin> | (If the activity is an object itself, then doing this setup would be worth doing right after initializing foo itself) |
| 21:08 | < ToxicFrog> | (It is. Something to look into.) |
| 21:08 | < ToxicFrog> | Sigh. C++. |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | It was a good first attempt at this set of problems. |
| 21:09 | <&McMartin> | The good second attempt reaches 1.0 final in two weeks. =P |
| 21:09 | <&McMartin> | But that one involves answering all those questions I was asking with type annotations that can only partially be inferred |
| 21:09 | <&McMartin> | Not 100% sure that's a step up~ |
| 21:10 | < ToxicFrog> | I think the actual for-reals correct answer here is to change the interface to return 'const string', but that touches basically everything. |
| 21:11 | <&McMartin> | I bet it's not that either |
| 21:12 | <&McMartin> | And if it would require interfacing with like 15 teams, I'd want to spend several days with two other good C++ architects to really get all our ducks in a row before we brought in all 15 teams and started bashing heads |
| 21:13 | <&McMartin> | But I get a definite sense that that is what it would require, and that the interfaces that are working together here were not designed to work together |
| 21:13 | <&McMartin> | Which means *really* doing it right means "hit up those 15 teams, get the *complete set* of things that they work with, rationalize all that, refactor everything" |
| 21:13 | <&McMartin> | That's a major project =P |
| 21:13 | <&McMartin> | (Note however that it isn't "set everything on fire"~) |
| 21:15 | <@TheWatcher> | (It'll just make you want to~) |
| 21:16 | <&McMartin> | (That's true regardless~) |
| 21:17 | < ToxicFrog> | Mmm, point |
| 21:17 | < ToxicFrog> | I mean, it's also possible that the answer is "the various teams have conflicting requirements for this corner of the API, fork it" |
| 21:18 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 21:18 | <&McMartin> | This isn't something you can hash out in here, and given my recollection of your preferred toolkits, probably not something want to be more than tangentially involved with |
| 21:18 | < ToxicFrog> | Looking at other teams' code, though, I get the feeling it was written when the underlying datatype was actually char * and now everyone is moving to string under the hood but no-one wants to pull the trigger on changing the common interface |
| 21:18 | <&McMartin> | But if you've got some way to, um |
| 21:18 | <&McMartin> | chafe? |
| 21:19 | <&McMartin> | "I'm just a grunt here, but you should know that this bit of the API is pinching" |
| 21:42 | | catadroid` [catalyst@Nightstar-k8mhtj.dab.02.net] has joined #code |
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| 22:16 | | mode/#code [+o Checkmate] by ChanServ |
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| 22:24 | | Kindamoody|autojoin [Kindamoody@Nightstar-180u8i.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #code |
| 22:24 | | mode/#code [+o Kindamoody|autojoin] by ChanServ |
| 22:25 | | Kindamoody|autojoin [Kindamoody@Nightstar-180u8i.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client exited] |
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| 22:25 | | mode/#code [+o Kindamoody|autojoin] by ChanServ |
| 22:27 | | Kindamoody|autojoin is now known as Kindamoody |
| 22:37 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-2hg.m53.10.176.IP] has quit [[NS] Quit: Update] |
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| 22:59 | | * TheWatcher eyes this code |
| 23:00 | | * TheWatcher breaks out a class 5 ward before he even thinks of running this... |
| 23:00 | | catadroid` [catalyst@Nightstar-ui8ts2.dab.02.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Bye] |
| 23:01 | <&jerith> | Only a class 5? |
| 23:03 | <&jerith> | Must be JS or PHP. Perl or C++ would probably need a class 6 or 7 ward to worry you. |
| 23:07 | | catadroid [catalyst@Nightstar-p9cb1l.range86-174.btcentralplus.com] has joined #code |
| 23:16 | | kourbou is now known as kourbou|zzz |
| 23:23 | <@celticminstrel> | What's this ward stuff? |
| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | Probably a reference to Charles Stross's "Laundry" novels. |
| 23:25 | | Vornicus [vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 23:25 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 23:44 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 23:46 | | gnolam [quassel@Nightstar-t1tbf0.cust.bahnhof.se] has joined #code |
| 23:46 | | mode/#code [+o gnolam] by ChanServ |
| 23:46 | <@gnolam> | j #nightstar_bar |
| 23:49 | < kourbou|zzz> | Zzz |
| --- Log closed Sat May 02 00:00:55 2015 |