| --- Log opened Thu Apr 23 00:00:27 2015 |
| 00:01 | < kourbou> | My client clears the chat anyways. |
| 00:01 | < kourbou> | And it would bore you, it's video game concepts mostly. |
| 00:06 | <&McMartin> | We like those too >_> |
| 00:06 | < kourbou> | Yeah, but. |
| 00:07 | < kourbou> | It's kinda secret. |
| 00:07 | < kourbou> | Until I release a pre-alpha |
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| 00:08 | <&jerith> | In my experience, it's never been useful to keep ideas like that secret. |
| 00:09 | <&jerith> | 00:59 < mtp> containers are like virtual machines without the virtual or the machine |
| 00:10 | <&jerith> | Also, my Scala assignment is finished, submitted, and received a grade of 10/10. |
| 00:10 | <@Reiv> | kourbou: Nonsense. You're almost guranteed to not have the ideas stolen. |
| 00:10 | <@Reiv> | You may well have the ideas improved, and potentially helped with. |
| 00:11 | <@Reiv> | "But what if someone steals my idea" is a common fallacy. The trick to game design is not Cool Ideas, it's actually getting on and /doing/ it. |
| 00:11 | <&jerith> | The thing is, ideas are never useful until they're implemented. |
| 00:11 | <@Reiv> | Right |
| 00:11 | <@Reiv> | Being The Ideas Guy only works if you're in charge of a dev team, which generally involves having been a successful dev to start with :p |
| 00:12 | <&jerith> | With video game concepts especially, no two people implement them the same way. |
| 00:13 | <&jerith> | Also, the kinds of people capable of implementing them generally have plenty of ideas of their own. |
| 00:13 | <&jerith> | So you might inspire some of us, but we're not going to "steal" anything. |
| 00:15 | <&jerith> | (We might point out that an idea is impractical or flawed or something, but that's generally useful feedback.) |
| 00:15 | <&jerith> | In other news, I don't like Scala much. |
| 00:16 | <&jerith> | It feels like a collection of functional programming features hammered into a vaguely Javaesque shape and given whatever syntax happened to be lying around. |
| 00:18 | <&jerith> | I want to write more OCaml instead. |
| 00:21 | <~Vornicus> | Yeah, ideas are cheap |
| 00:22 | < kourbou> | Reiv: not now because I'm not sure if it's a good idea yet. xD |
| 00:22 | <@Reiv> | Which is why Vorn and I are so good at manufacturing them :p |
| 00:22 | <@Reiv> | kourbou: At which point we'll take it as intended! |
| 00:22 | <~Vornicus> | That's what we are for~ |
| 00:22 | <@Reiv> | Now start writing so you have notes for later. :p |
| 00:22 | <@Reiv> | We'll even paste 'em to you afterwards~ |
| 00:23 | | * Vornicus pokes around at exercism.io, finds... wow, this submission |
| 00:24 | < kourbou> | It has very little code in it but if you want I can upload some ideas I found. |
| 00:25 | <~Vornicus> | So one of the early problems, "bob", is to respond to a text command based on whether it's a question, or yelling, or blank; to do a problem you run the provided test suite on your code. |
| 00:25 | <~Vornicus> | This guy's code is a function that looks up things from the test suite in a dictionary and returns the value stored therein. |
| 00:34 | <@Reiv> | kourbou: We were mostly offering that you can brainstorm in here, no harm no foul |
| 00:35 | <@Reiv> | And then the idea will not escape your brain, because there will be a log of it. |
| 00:35 | <@Reiv> | If you wish to muse apon the idea, go for it. |
| 00:35 | <~Vornicus> | "upon", get it right. |
| 00:35 | <@Reiv> | Vornicus: "Technically correct" is the best kind of correct! |
| 00:35 | <@Reiv> | Bah and humbug |
| 00:35 | < kourbou> | The fact is I noted them down on a paper :P |
| 00:36 | < kourbou> | But if you'd like to know, then sure, I'll upload. |
| 00:36 | < kourbou> | That's if you can decrypt my handwriting. |
| 00:56 | < kourbou> | Alright, I'm going to describe it to you Reiv, so you can tell me what you think. |
| 00:57 | <@Reiv> | sure |
| 00:57 | < kourbou> | Already is going to displease a few because it's a controversial type of game. |
| 00:58 | < kourbou> | I'm trying to make a MOBA that's PvP, PvE. |
| 00:58 | < kourbou> | But think of it as a blend between LoL, DoTA and Transistor. |
| 00:58 | < kourbou> | You know the game? |
| 01:00 | < kourbou> | Basically the concept is you have spells with 3 different modes: Active, Upgrade, Passive. |
| 01:00 | <@Reiv> | Right |
| 01:01 | <@Reiv> | I know Transistor, yeah |
| 01:01 | < kourbou> | The player has 4 Actives 2 Passives and each active has two upgrade slots. |
| 01:01 | <@Reiv> | MOBAs I have written off as not to my taste, and suicide to try to develop >_> |
| 01:01 | < kourbou> | XD |
| 01:01 | < kourbou> | Yes. |
| 01:02 | < kourbou> | I'm not sure of the MOBA side, my project is a little too... Ambitious. |
| 01:02 | < kourbou> | So I was saying: you know how active/passive spells work? |
| 01:03 | <@Reiv> | yeah |
| 01:03 | < kourbou> | Well you can upgrade active spells so they do more. |
| 01:03 | < kourbou> | With another spell. |
| 01:04 | < kourbou> | Say I link an AoE spell with a Heal spell, well when you use it eg. It returns a percentage of the damage dealt as HP. |
| 01:05 | < kourbou> | And so the point of this is to have a complicated "build" a player can customize to have the exact effect he wants. |
| 01:05 | < kourbou> | Now there are a few problems, |
| 01:05 | <@Reiv> | Sure. |
| 01:05 | < kourbou> | Firstly, that means I have to cut every single spell interaction with a new spell. |
| 01:06 | < kourbou> | Secondly, I have to make it balanced. |
| 01:06 | < kourbou> | Not too OP. |
| 01:06 | <@Reiv> | And balance it so there's no uber-combos, Magicka style. |
| 01:06 | < kourbou> | ^ |
| 01:06 | < kourbou> | Exactly |
| 01:06 | <@Reiv> | (Honestly my first pick for that stuff would be a Magicka system. Of course, they then went and did that, but it was a lovely idea.) |
| 01:06 | < kourbou> | I was thinking making upgrades very manavore. |
| 01:07 | < kourbou> | Or adding to the cool down. |
| 01:07 | <@Reiv> | That becomes a design decision rather than an automatic fix, though, because it's still a matter of 'is this cost worthwhile'; if it isn't, the system is pointless. If it is, you'll do it. |
| 01:07 | < kourbou> | So you say Magicka did this. |
| 01:07 | <@Reiv> | You have plenty of levers to fiddle with for balance. |
| 01:07 | <@Reiv> | Ehh, no |
| 01:08 | <@Reiv> | Magicka let you on-the-fly combo spell elements together to get the effect you wanted |
| 01:08 | < kourbou> | Sorry, I don't know the game. |
| 01:08 | <@Reiv> | No cooldowns, no mana, all spellcasting all the time |
| 01:08 | <@Reiv> | Absolutely hilarious accordingly |
| 01:08 | < kourbou> | Oh >.> |
| 01:08 | < kourbou> | A bit too OP no? |
| 01:08 | < kourbou> | Especially for a MOBA. |
| 01:08 | <@Reiv> | But while the *idea* was that you'd need to constantly tweak your spell selection to deal with stuff as it happened, and you did this to a certain extent, people found certain combos resulted in particuarly nasty effects |
| 01:09 | <@Reiv> | And these became memorised combos |
| 01:09 | < kourbou> | Yeah. |
| 01:09 | <@Reiv> | Eh, not really, they went and made a MOBA version of it :p |
| 01:09 | <@Reiv> | Go check it out, it's great fun |
| 01:09 | < kourbou> | Well I'm kinda going for the same idea. |
| 01:09 | <@Reiv> | Magicka 2 is coming out too, and I am thoroughly hopeful for that one |
| 01:09 | <@Reiv> | (Seriously, as an alternative magic system, it's *glorious*. We'd not seen its like previously.) |
| 01:10 | < kourbou> | I also thought if chaining spells, like on TERA (don't know other MMOs) |
| 01:10 | <@Reiv> | (Hell, go watch a couple Let's Plays or something, though it's not nearly as much fun as trying to do it yourself and accidentally messing up, so now your fire shield instead *sets you on fire*) |
| 01:10 | < kourbou> | :P |
| 01:10 | < kourbou> | Okay thanks. |
| 01:10 | <@Reiv> | (Hilarity ensues.) |
| 01:10 | < kourbou> | I'll definitely look it up. |
| 01:10 | <@Reiv> | Do so |
| 01:11 | <@Reiv> | Anyway, back to MOBA design |
| 01:11 | <@Reiv> | You'll have the same issue - either every combination is equally useful, which makes mastery boring, or there are ones that are not, at which point everyone tries to take them |
| 01:11 | < kourbou> | The point is, I'm trying to get the players to experiment with builds. |
| 01:12 | <@Reiv> | An idea I've long toyed with for an MMO is a suite of skills and abilities that dynamically balance, and you shape this into the story, setting, and metagame. |
| 01:12 | < kourbou> | What do you mean balance? |
| 01:12 | < kourbou> | Become stronger? |
| 01:12 | <@Reiv> | Right, my concern is that like Every MMO Ever, people will rapidly iterate to various sets of the best possible builds and then everyone else will just grab 'em off the forums. |
| 01:13 | < kourbou> | Oh yeah, I see. |
| 01:13 | <@Reiv> | Most popular skills have their bonuses erode, costs increase, say every week. Least popular skills recieve the reverse. |
| 01:13 | <@Reiv> | Is the idea I was toying with. |
| 01:13 | < kourbou> | So like forming a meta. |
| 01:13 | <~Vornicus> | One of the things you get in LoL is |
| 01:13 | <~Vornicus> | "incomparables" |
| 01:13 | <@Reiv> | Right. The thing 'self-balances' in that the herd mentality actively degrades the stuff the herd is using, so a few weeks later it's not very good any more |
| 01:14 | <@Reiv> | While the stuff everyone is scorning steadily gets stronger until someone figures out it's popular. |
| 01:14 | < kourbou> | If I add a new spell say each month (very ambitious), they would recalculate their bulls? |
| 01:14 | < kourbou> | Builds* |
| 01:14 | <@Reiv> | Hilarity ensues, especially because this means that sharing your Killer Combo is actively detrimental. I suspect this will result in an EVE-style faction note-swapping, whilst keeping your loadouts secretive until battle. |
| 01:15 | <@Reiv> | kourbou: Of course people would |
| 01:15 | <@Reiv> | kourbou: Certain kind of geeks love their math |
| 01:15 | < kourbou> | So that's a way of changing the meta, sort of. |
| 01:15 | <@Reiv> | (I am one of them, which is why i constantly shout HEY VORN and then get him to do math for me) |
| 01:16 | < kourbou> | lol |
| 01:16 | < kourbou> | That's what you were doing yesterday? |
| 01:16 | <@Reiv> | It is, but it's going to continue to optimize towards the peak. You'll end up with the classic DOTA in which people figure out the best builds, then stick with them till the next balance update, and then find the new one. |
| 01:16 | <@Reiv> | of course |
| 01:16 | <@Reiv> | I worked out that a new card can turn a ship into one of the toughest opponents in the game at the point where he should nominally be dead meat - for one round. |
| 01:17 | < kourbou> | Yeah. |
| 01:17 | <@Reiv> | That is very much worthwhile, and would be automatic but for the fact it's competing with an upgrade that is the same sort of panic button, but positionally as opposed to dice-ily. |
| 01:18 | < kourbou> | As for spell effects, I thought Id have ratios that can be upgraded for each character with mastery points. |
| 01:18 | <@Reiv> | Hard to say which is better, but given the ship in question is struggling on the dice front, and positionally is one of the least concerned in the game... I'll probably take it. |
| 01:18 | < kourbou> | Rogue-like-like you know? |
| 01:18 | <@Reiv> | Mm |
| 01:18 | <@Reiv> | You mean you get bonuses until you die in each round? |
| 01:18 | < kourbou> | No. |
| 01:18 | <@Reiv> | That results in a steamroller problem - a couple of unlucky deaths midgame leaves a bunch of rookie heroes fighting against someone that's rapidly starting to snowball. |
| 01:19 | <@Reiv> | Penalties for death are tricky in a MOBA, because deaths come fast and furious, and you can't avoid that without taking the tension out of the game. |
| 01:19 | < kourbou> | I mean you have a character with a build and you have points so you can choose to specialize in Tank spells with HP, Armor ratios. |
| 01:20 | <@Reiv> | And these convey between points? |
| 01:20 | < kourbou> | I've only played LoL so I don't know death penalties. |
| 01:20 | < kourbou> | Convey? |
| 01:21 | <@Reiv> | How much in the way of MOBAs have you, uh, played here |
| 01:22 | < kourbou> | LoL |
| 01:22 | < kourbou> | Is as far as I've gone. |
| 01:24 | < kourbou> | Well I have to go. But I logged this conversation. |
| 01:24 | < kourbou> | So thanks Reiv and Born. |
| 01:24 | < kourbou> | Vorn* |
| 01:25 | <@Reiv> | Have a good one :) |
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| 02:36 | | * Reiv muses |
| 02:36 | <@Reiv> | HEY VORN |
| 02:36 | <@Reiv> | I have a simple problem, but I'm not sure how to math it |
| 02:37 | <@Reiv> | 3-die attack (4/8 boom, 2/8 eyes, 2/8 blank), and a quandry: How much more damage would you get out of having the option of turning one eye into 2 hits, vs all eyes into hits? |
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| 02:42 | <~Vornicus> | man |
| 02:49 | <@Reiv> | Yeah, it's theoretically simple but then suddenly isn't |
| 02:50 | <@Reiv> | I can make it worse, too~ |
| 02:51 | <@Reiv> | The actual effect is two abilities: One lets you turn a <crit> into 2 damage. The other lets you spend a Focus to turn one <eye> into a <crit>. |
| 02:52 | <@Reiv> | Of course, your regular dice are also technically actually (1/8 crit, 3/8 hit, 2/8 eyes, 2/8 blank) |
| 02:52 | <@Reiv> | Usually I don't care about the difference. Perhaps today I do. |
| 02:53 | <@Reiv> | Both abilities are only once per turn, so if you get a <crit> <eye> <blank>, the eye-to-crit will have no direct benefit here |
| 02:53 | <@Reiv> | (Though it'd still be nice in general, of course) |
| 02:56 | <~Vornicus> | ok. of 64 trials: 8 are hhh, 12 are hhe, 12 are hhb, 6 are hee, 6 are hbb, 12 are heb, 1 is eee, 3 are eeb, 3 are ebb, 1 is bbb. so values from just hits is 8 24 24 8, ev 1.5; all eyes into hits is 1 9 27 27, ev 2.25; 1 eye to 2 hits is 1 6 19 26 12, EV of 2.65625. |
| 02:59 | <@Reiv> | whoa, pretty potent |
| 02:59 | | * Reiv hms |
| 03:00 | <~Vornicus> | This does not consider crits. |
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| 10:30 | < [R]> | JS pop-quiz! |
| 10:30 | < [R]> | > var x = 3; f = (function() { var x = 1; return new Function('return x') })(); (function() { var x = 2; return f() })() |
| 10:31 | < [R]> | What number is returned by the second anonymous function? |
| 10:35 | | * [R] thinks he knows what's going on, but isn't sure |
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| 14:26 | <@iospace> | no clue, don't know JS |
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| 15:22 | < kourbou> | Too lazy to do math. |
| 15:22 | < kourbou> | Especially during vacation xD |
| 15:26 | < kourbou> | [R]: I'm guessing it returns x = 2. |
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| 16:44 | < [R]> | kourbou: 3. |
| 16:44 | < [R]> | AFAICT, functions made by new Function always use the global scope variables. |
| 16:46 | < kourbou> | Oh OK. |
| 16:46 | < kourbou> | I don't Jawascwipt so. |
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| 19:00 | <@froztbyte> | https://imgur.com/bRMGeCM |
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| 22:50 | | * TheWatcher sighs |
| 22:53 | <@TheWatcher> | Doing this The Right Way is going to end up with creating another 4 modules and much faffing, but will make it far more maintainable in the long run. Damn joo, laziness. |
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| 23:04 | <&McMartin> | This is the conflict between laziness and False Laziness, isn't it |
| 23:06 | <@TheWatcher> | Indeed. |
| 23:13 | <@TheWatcher> | Normally it'd be a nobrainer, but this is going to need some finessing with the way the database connection is handed around. |
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| 23:15 | <@Reiv> | Give an intelligent, lazy man a hard job. He'll work out the best way to do it. |
| 23:15 | <@Reiv> | I vaugely recall there was a whole set of four of them |
| 23:16 | <@Reiv> | And one of them was firing the unintelligent lazy, but finding uses for the rest that sometimes sounded distinctly unfair to the earnest~ |
| 23:17 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 23:17 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 23:26 | | Vornicus [vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 23:26 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 23:43 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, shit. In order to make the permissions mechanism work, I need to be able to get the metadata and roles objects working under Irssi, too. This is going to be fun. |
| 23:45 | <@Reiv> | Your laziness looks to be a complete system rewrite. |
| 23:45 | <@Reiv> | Are you sure this is laziness~ |
| 23:49 | <@TheWatcher> | Not a complete one |
| 23:50 | <@TheWatcher> | It just means that this Irssi plugin is going to consist of the plugin module... plus about 12 or 13 supporting modules. |
| 23:57 | | Meatyhandbag [sebastianfe@Nightstar-dk0.5eb.224.136.IP] has quit [Client exited] |
| --- Log closed Fri Apr 24 00:00:42 2015 |