| --- Log opened Wed Apr 08 00:00:26 2015 |
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| 07:30 | <&McMartin> | Naps are pretty awesome except when the computer doing work next to you also naps |
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| 09:23 | <@froztbyte> | https://github.com/fdb/frequensea |
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| 10:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Progress on my current home project goes slowly but consistently. |
| 10:03 | <@Tarinaky> | I now have unit testing, a working build system and a logging module for finding errors. |
| 10:03 | <&McMartin> | Sweet |
| 10:04 | <&McMartin> | What's the language/development system/platform? |
| 10:04 | <@Tarinaky> | C++/cmake/msbuild/windows |
| 10:04 | <@Tarinaky> | Sticking to std and boost libraries though because the purpose of the exercise is to get familiar with C++11/C++14 |
| 10:18 | | * McMartin nods |
| 10:18 | <&McMartin> | I really need a crash course in the C++11 additions. |
| 10:19 | <&McMartin> | I have acted on this, and the latest edition of Stroustroup is on its way, purchased with the contents of my change jar and a few coupons. |
| 10:19 | <@Tarinaky> | Which book? |
| 10:21 | <&McMartin> | "The C++ Programming Language, Fourth Edition" |
| 10:21 | <&McMartin> | Doesn't go through to 14, but nobody implements 14 yet. |
| 10:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Personally I'd be happy if I could understand rvalues :V |
| 10:35 | <&McMartin> | Ping me at a time when it isn't 0230 my time. I can totally do a spiel on it |
| 10:36 | <@Tarinaky> | Don't have the money for books right now so it's fine. |
| 10:37 | <&McMartin> | Right, this would be "McMartin monologues for a bit on lvalues vs rvalues" |
| 10:37 | <@Tarinaky> | Oooh. |
| 10:38 | <@Tarinaky> | I get the basics, I think. |
| 10:38 | <@Tarinaky> | Just not enough to be confident using them. |
| 10:38 | <@Tarinaky> | Which is probably best fixed by just using them and fixing whatever falls out. |
| 10:38 | <&McMartin> | You are using them, all the time, just not in a way that usually matters |
| 10:39 | <&McMartin> | The part where C++11 messes with stuff is a part I'm unclear on, I think |
| 10:39 | <&McMartin> | lvalues are things that can be assigned, and rvalues are things that can evaluate to values, though, in short. |
| 10:39 | <&McMartin> | It's l and r for which side of the = they go on, for serious. |
| 10:39 | <&McMartin> | But then there's && and move constructors and emplace and mrblgrbl. |
| 10:39 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm unclear of which situations an lvalue can become an rvalue, or vice-versa... and how they work with Method Overloading. |
| 10:39 | <&McMartin> | That's where I need to hit the books myself. |
| 10:40 | <@Tarinaky> | I get the left/right thing. |
| 10:40 | <@Tarinaky> | And move semantics. |
| 10:41 | <&McMartin> | Right. "lvalue" and "rvalue" go well beyond C++. |
| 10:41 | <&McMartin> | C++11 changed some semantics, I think, surrounding this, and I'm not super-clear on it |
| 10:41 | <&McMartin> | But I believe that if you stick to straight values and references and pointers (pointers are secretly values, so w/e) then you're clear |
| 10:41 | <&McMartin> | In that 11 behaves as 98 |
| 10:41 | <@Tarinaky> | I thought the lvalue/rvalue naming came directly from the C++ language spec which described expressions as being either on the left or right of an assignment operator. |
| 10:42 | <@Tarinaky> | Or did you mean beyond C++ in a different meaning? |
| 10:42 | <&McMartin> | I meant "you'll see people refer to lvalues when talking about languages that aren't C++" |
| 10:43 | <&McMartin> | Pretty much any language that has assignment has a notion of lvalue |
| 10:43 | <&McMartin> | Including 80s BASIC. |
| 10:43 | <&McMartin> | You can't say 10 LET 3=4 because 3 isn't an lvalue, etc. |
| 10:43 | <&McMartin> | The term may have ultimately come from the C++ spec - the spec long, *long* predates the standard |
| 10:43 | <&McMartin> | But my experience is that lvalue in particular has pretty wide currency |
| 10:44 | <@Tarinaky> | Well Yacc/bison are C tools :P |
| 10:45 | <&McMartin> | A fair point! |
| 10:48 | <@Tarinaky> | The next thing I need to get in my project is UI stuffs. |
| 10:48 | <@Tarinaky> | Which is probably going to be about as much fun as pulling teeth. |
| 10:49 | <&McMartin> | Good luck |
| 10:49 | <&McMartin> | In C++, the fewest spiders I've ever encountered are with Qt4, but that was hardly spider-free |
| 11:35 | <@TheWatcher> | Good gods, I hate LDAP |
| 11:36 | <&McMartin> | sad high five |
| 11:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Today in Politics: Labour seem to have finally found a 'wedge issue' outside of promising to look less gleeful while cutting relief to the infirm. |
| 11:39 | <@Tarinaky> | With the non-dom rule. |
| 11:39 | <@Tarinaky> | It's unclear, however, what the parties stances on said status actually is. |
| 11:40 | <@Tarinaky> | With everyone at once wanting to abolish and not abolish it at the same time. |
| 11:40 | <@Tarinaky> | I am reminded of the phrase 'omnishambles' |
| 11:42 | <&McMartin> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZTD-vYhwj4 |
| 11:43 | <@Tarinaky> | Cannot watch, at work: summary? |
| 11:43 | <&McMartin> | It's a donation drive for a science museum, with a very funny guy (who is, IIRC, a NASA scientist) straightfacedly presenting phlogiston theory in the usual Mr. Wizard-style |
| 11:44 | <@Tarinaky> | mr wizard? |
| 11:44 | <&McMartin> | Er, right, sorry |
| 11:44 | <&McMartin> | Bill Nye? |
| 11:44 | <@Tarinaky> | I've heard of him but I don't have the cultural context to go with it. |
| 11:44 | <&McMartin> | (Mr. Wizard was the first TV personality of that sort) |
| 11:44 | <&McMartin> | Does simple science experiments on TV as a form of instruction |
| 11:45 | <@Tarinaky> | Don't think we really have anything like that... |
| 11:45 | <&McMartin> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Herbert |
| 11:45 | <@Tarinaky> | Brainiac: Science Abuse was more about copying Mythbusters and crossing it with Top Gear. |
| 11:46 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, Mr. Wizard was (a) from the 60s through the 80s and (b) more about actual improvised science kits &c |
| 11:46 | <&McMartin> | Tended to be stuff you *could* try at home. |
| 11:47 | <&McMartin> | A funny case because he was doing live shows both when my dad watched TV and when I did, though he was much older when I did :) |
| 11:49 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, it is a genre of popular science lecture, and he's doing it, in a funny way, because he's also a funny dude, but he's doing it for phlogiston. |
| 11:49 | <&McMartin> | The final pitch is "donate to help us teach *real* science" |
| 11:49 | <@Tarinaky> | Phlogiston is the theory of four humours right? |
| 11:50 | <&McMartin> | No; it's the predecessor theory to oxygen; that combustion happened because of something in the flammable substance being released into the air rather than something in the air energetically combining with the substance. |
| 11:51 | <@Tarinaky> | I have a pharmecist friend who wants to get licensed for homeopathy so they can pretend to be a wizard. |
| 11:51 | <&McMartin> | Phlogiston was wrong, not dumb. |
| 11:52 | <&McMartin> | The Try This At Home bit he does is actually a testament to the bits where the theory works |
| 11:52 | <@Tarinaky> | Homeopathy is only dumb in the context of people still using it. |
| 11:52 | <&McMartin> | Well, it's magic |
| 11:52 | <&McMartin> | Phlogiston was, actually, science |
| 11:53 | <&McMartin> | but it's like the luminiferous ether or the "plum pudding" model of the atom |
| 11:53 | <@Tarinaky> | I'd argue homeopathy is no less 'wrong' science, it's just /older/ wrong science. |
| 11:54 | <&McMartin> | I would disagree because phlogiston theory works for a lot of stuff, and homeopathy doesn't work for anything. |
| 11:55 | <@Tarinaky> | On the contrary, if you don't account for the placebo effect it works. |
| 11:55 | <&McMartin> | That's "doing it wrong" |
| 11:55 | <@Tarinaky> | Medieval scholars did actually do experiments (well some of them) |
| 11:55 | <&McMartin> | Basically you end up describing combustion but with some kind of anti-oxygen, so instead of running out of oxygen, the air is saturated with phlogiston; instead of isolating oxygen you've produced completely dephlogisticated air, etc. |
| 11:55 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes, because they didn't know any reason to know any better. |
| 11:56 | <&McMartin> | I'd still claim that's a difference in kind from, like, the way Newtonian mechanics is wrong |
| 11:57 | <@Tarinaky> | I think that's an arbitrary distinction. |
| 11:57 | <&McMartin> | Well, that's the core of our disagreement here, then |
| 11:57 | <@Tarinaky> | Newtonian mechanics is only 'obvious' to us because we have devices capable of producing huge momentums trivially. |
| 11:58 | <@Tarinaky> | At low momentums friction is dominant and newtonian physics is none-obvious. |
| 12:00 | <&McMartin> | I'm talking about the part where Newtonian mechanics are wrong |
| 12:01 | <&McMartin> | Viz. because Einstein |
| 12:01 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh. |
| 12:01 | <&McMartin> | Likewise, IIRC you can't directly disprove phlogiston until you get, like, quantum mechanics, though it starts getting more and more implausible before that. |
| 12:02 | <@gnolam> | The luminiferous aether and phlogiston theory fit the evidence at the time. The luminiferous aether and phlogiston theory had explanatory power. The luminiferous aether and phlogiston theory were both actually /science/. |
| 12:02 | | * TheWatcher stab and stab and stab the people who don't read documentation. |
| 12:02 | <@gnolam> | Homeopathy has been Sympathetic Magic and the Principle of Contamination all along. |
| 12:03 | <&McMartin> | Ether is wacky |
| 12:04 | <&McMartin> | Because while it had explanatory power, it was mathematically problematic because of Maxwell's equations... |
| 12:04 | <&McMartin> | ... but IIRC it was disproved experimentally before Maxwell's equations were used to demonstrate it wasn't necessary. |
| 12:04 | <&McMartin> | IIRC the sequence was actually Maxwell -> Ether -> Michelson/Moreley -> Special Relativity (based on Maxwell) |
| 12:05 | <&McMartin> | And that was math; one could have jumped straight from the first to the last but didn't. |
| 12:05 | <&McMartin> | Mmm, I'm misremembering |
| 12:05 | <&McMartin> | It's too late/early |
| 12:07 | <@gnolam> | s/Principle of Contamination/Magical Law of Contagion |
| 12:07 | <@gnolam> | My caffeine/blood ratio is way too low. |
| 12:14 | <@gnolam> | (Fun fact: I have used the magical law of contagion to model the spread of real-life contamination :D) |
| 12:18 | <@Wizard> | McMartin: On the contrary, I have never been on TV |
| 12:24 | <&McMartin> | Wizard is your *first* name |
| 13:15 | | * TheWatcher finally bends LDAP to his will |
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| 13:24 | <@Tarinaky> | http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/512/amz/vivo/live/images/2015/4/8/59 1b603d-d89a-4a05-9a29-774861bfc557.jpg |
| 13:26 | <@TheWatcher> | 'FUKP' |
| 13:27 | <@TheWatcher> | "The other parties offer the moon on a stick. We'll do better than that: a British moon on a British stick." |
| 13:28 | <@TheWatcher> | ... ahahah "If you come to A&E and it's neither an accident nor an emergency then you will be sent to a random hospital department to be practised on. Common sense." |
| 13:28 | <@Tarinaky> | "Britain to leave the EU by 2025, and the edge of the solar system by 2050" |
| 13:29 | <@TheWatcher> | Fuck, if this guy were standing in my constituency, I might just vote for him. This is a Good Old Fashioned Pisstake. |
| 13:29 | <@Tarinaky> | He's running against Farage. |
| 13:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Directly I mean. |
| 13:30 | <@TheWatcher> | Hopefully with a sword~ |
| 13:31 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh, and bricking up the channel tunnel with British bricks... although we'll have to get polish builders because they're just so much cheaper. |
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| 15:45 | <@Tarinaky> | So the summary of the nondom thing: |
| 15:46 | <@Tarinaky> | Labour have promised to 'abolish' the status, and introduce a new status for people who're 'genuinely nondom'. |
| 15:47 | <@Tarinaky> | (noting pedantically this is a reform, rather than an abolishion as such) |
| 15:48 | <@Tarinaky> | Conservatives say this is a flipflop from an earlier position where they claimed the status couldn't be abolished because of the 'genuinely nondom'. |
| 15:48 | < Shiz> | return bytes((a ^ b) for (a, b) in zip(contents, itertools.chain(self.key, itertools.repeat(0)))) |
| 15:48 | < Shiz> | i am programming hitler |
| 15:48 | < Shiz> | let me atone for my sins |
| 15:49 | <@Tarinaky> | LibDems say this will cost the treasury money rather than make money because the rich will just leave or whatever the argument is. |
| 15:49 | <@Tarinaky> | I think that is the correct positions the parties have settled on. |
| 15:49 | <@Tarinaky> | I think everyone's been making policy up by the seat of their pants though. |
| --- Log closed Wed Apr 08 16:00:42 2015 |
| --- Log opened Wed Apr 08 16:00:46 2015 |
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| 16:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: "nondom"? |
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| 16:08 | <@gnolam> | Bareback?~ |
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| 16:26 | <@Tamber> | TF: "Non-domicile" rule, letting people to limit the amount of tax they're paying on money they earn from outside the country. |
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| --- Log closed Thu Apr 09 00:00:42 2015 |