| --- Log opened Wed Apr 01 00:11:08 2015 |
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| 02:00 | < sebastianferguson> | does anyone here have knowledge of any tutorials that could help me make a MUD? |
| 02:03 | < Turaiel> | As in, code a MUD client and server? That's going to take a lot of learning. |
| 02:04 | < Turaiel> | And you'll probably be better off with books than tutorials. I don't know which languages you'd prefer to use though, and I don't know any specific books, though others might be able to point some out. |
| 02:04 | < Turaiel> | Have you programmed before? |
| 02:05 | < sebastianferguson> | I have knowledge in Java, c# and c++. |
| 02:05 | < Turaiel> | How much? |
| 02:05 | < sebastianferguson> | and the humility to ask when i don't know |
| 02:06 | < sebastianferguson> | I don't exactly have a level or anything in the code |
| 02:06 | < Turaiel> | You're going to need to work with networking, and the interface you use is going to be dependent on the application (also whether you choose to use CLI or GUI) |
| 02:06 | < sebastianferguson> | I've programmed only in the console itself though, so I don't know anything about working in apps or networks |
| 02:07 | <&Derakon> | Ehh, I'm sure you can find a build-your-own-MUD framework out there. |
| 02:07 | <&Derakon> | Which would save you from having to reimplement IRC. |
| 02:07 | < Turaiel> | I'm certainly no expert, but I'd recommend studying up on TCP sockets in your language of choice (I don't recommend C# for CLI applications though) |
| 02:07 | < Turaiel> | ^ |
| 02:07 | < Turaiel> | Do MUDs use IRC as a backend? |
| 02:07 | < sebastianferguson> | Derakon: I don't mind learning the nit and gritty of the code |
| 02:08 | <&Derakon> | Sebastian: well, that's fine but there's still zero point in you re-writing it all. |
| 02:08 | <&Derakon> | Unless you want to do so purely as a learning experience. |
| 02:08 | < Turaiel> | sebastianferguson, if it is indeed involving IRC too, you're going to want to study the RFCs for the IRC protocol. |
| 02:08 | < Turaiel> | Though IRC isn't exactly easy to implement as your first client/server application |
| 02:08 | < sebastianferguson> | FUCK, just realized by username wasn't changed |
| 02:08 | < sebastianferguson> | I really need to fix that |
| 02:08 | <&Derakon> | /nick newnick |
| 02:08 | | sebastianferguson is now known as Meatyhandbag |
| 02:09 | <&Derakon> | Oh, Mr. Meaty. |
| 02:14 | < Meatyhandbag> | Turaiel: I don't care if it is IRC or not, let me link an image of a possible end product i'd like to reach |
| 02:15 | < Meatyhandbag> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD#/media/File:God_Wars_II_screenshot_of_dungeon_w ith_MUSHclient_plugin.png |
| 02:16 | < Turaiel> | Ah, so you eventually want a graphical component |
| 02:16 | < Meatyhandbag> | that is the eventual end of what i desire |
| 02:16 | < Turaiel> | Well, the GUI is probably the easiest part if you use WPF (C#) (though much more difficult if you use native Windows stuff with the win32 API) |
| 02:17 | < Turaiel> | It's the networking component you need to work out. Your best bet is to learn how to use sockets in your language of choice, and come up with some kind of protocol for it (or use an existing protocol). You may want to study up on how this has been done in the past with some searching or books. |
| 02:17 | < Meatyhandbag> | I'd rather not use c# as a front end code. From what I hear, c#'s Windows are shit |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | Windows Forms has been the default for ages, AFAIK |
| 02:18 | < Meatyhandbag> | oh? |
| 02:18 | < Turaiel> | It used to be. |
| 02:18 | < Meatyhandbag> | I thought Javascript was the default when it came to the front end like GUIs? |
| 02:18 | < Turaiel> | Err.. |
| 02:18 | < Turaiel> | If you're working in a browser window it is. |
| 02:19 | < Turaiel> | Or, like in certain games, using an HTML renderer in the background for your interface |
| 02:19 | < Turaiel> | But that's not really recommended unless you like your application to be embedded in a browser |
| 02:19 | < Turaiel> | winforms was largely replaced by WPF/XAML in the .NET department |
| 02:19 | < Turaiel> | (Good riddance, honestly) |
| 02:20 | < Meatyhandbag> | ok then |
| 02:20 | <~Vornicus> | JS is the bomb diggity, frankly. It's a shame about the giant terrible library that's built around it~ |
| 02:20 | < Turaiel> | (or Firefox, which renders its entire GUI in JS, except for the native win32 components) |
| 02:21 | < Turaiel> | I'm not a JS fan. |
| 02:21 | < Meatyhandbag> | I guess the 2 first steps are learning how to use the Windows in c# (I honestly cannot find a single tutorial on them) and networking cables. which I guess would also be c#? |
| 02:21 | < Turaiel> | Meatyhandbag, like I said, tutorials are going to be rough. Books are going to be the best way to learn /how it works/ rather than what to do. |
| 02:22 | < Turaiel> | With networking there's going to be learning how networking works, then learning how to use your language's provided networking tools (or external libraries if it's needed) |
| 02:22 | < Turaiel> | Either books for CS courses :P |
| 02:22 | < Turaiel> | Tutorials tend to be rather lacking in detail and focused on the end result rather than the process. |
| 02:23 | < Turaiel> | (in general) |
| 02:23 | <~Vornicus> | (I learned to program from the Python tutorial) |
| 02:23 | < Turaiel> | Depends on what kind of tutorial we're talking about though |
| 02:23 | < Turaiel> | Like, if it's a thorough tutorial with documentation, that works. |
| 02:24 | < Turaiel> | But the type that comes to mind for me is a step-by-step on how to do the thing and make the stuff happen |
| 02:24 | < Turaiel> | Rather than teaching the language and concepts |
| 02:24 | < Turaiel> | Sorry for splitting my lines so much, so many afterthoughts! |
| 02:24 | < Meatyhandbag> | Turaiel: any book suggestions? |
| 02:25 | < Turaiel> | No, sorry. I haven't read them myself. Most of what I know is learned from university courses thus far (or by trial and error and documentation prior to that, which is less than ideal) |
| 02:26 | < Turaiel> | You may find resources like this helpful: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8122592/which-books-to-learn-sockets-programm ing-and-tcp-network-communication |
| 02:27 | < Turaiel> | Also Vornicus, how much other programming knowledge did you know before learning Python? :P |
| 02:28 | < Turaiel> | The other folks in here probably know of better resources than I do. |
| 02:29 | < Turaiel> | Back to wasting time on my homework project again... *cries* |
| 02:29 | <~Vornicus> | Turaiel: uh... well, about a decade before I had a commodore 64 |
| 02:29 | <~Vornicus> | And in a large sense the user manual for that was my first serious book. |
| 02:29 | < Turaiel> | well at least you had some background eh? :P |
| 02:30 | <~Vornicus> | But it'd been that long since I'd done anything |
| 02:35 | <~Vornicus> | But nowadays I can, usually, look at a (non-demo) C64 program and figure out how they did it, for the most part |
| 02:36 | <~Vornicus> | This I could not do when I started programming for real |
| 02:36 | <~Vornicus> | Or when my C64 died. |
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| 04:21 | < Turaiel> | McMartin, I'm having a strange issue. |
| 04:28 | < Turaiel> | (or anyone else, really.) I'm outputting the pointer in the callback function, but when it does screw up, it doesn't even output |
| 04:28 | < Turaiel> | It's like it's calling semaphore V without the callback, from nowhere |
| 04:30 | <~Vornicus> | is this more nachos stuff |
| 04:30 | < Turaiel> | Aw hell |
| 04:31 | < Turaiel> | It's a totally different semaphore. It has been the whole time. FFFFFFFF |
| 04:31 | < Turaiel> | It's my outer lock |
| 04:34 | <~Vornicus> | -1 |
| 04:51 | <&McMartin> | That would explain the different semaphore values |
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| 08:18 | <@gnolam> | Meatyhandbag: luckily, all you need in networking for a MUD is Telnet, and you can ignore half the standard - because everyone else does as well.~ |
| 08:21 | <@gnolam> | (And Telnet is dirt simple) |
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| 13:19 | | * Tarinaky tries to remember how order m>1 markov chains work. |
| 13:20 | <&McMartin> | I think it's basically the same, but with tuples of words as the keys in the table instead of just individual words |
| 13:21 | <@Tarinaky> | Yeah, struggling to find some notes to cram from. |
| 13:22 | <@Tarinaky> | Bored at work; thinking about doodling a rock-paper-scissors bot. |
| --- Log closed Wed Apr 01 13:28:06 2015 |
| --- Log opened Wed Apr 01 13:33:17 2015 |
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| 13:57 | < Meatyhandbag> | gnolam: you still on? |
| 14:06 | <@gnolam> | s |
| 14:06 | <@gnolam> | *Sort of. |
| 14:10 | < Meatyhandbag> | tell me more of telnet? |
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| 14:33 | <@Wizard> | Time to read RFCs |
| 14:34 | < Meatyhandbag> | read what? |
| 14:37 | <@Wizard> | RFCs are exact standards for common networking technologies |
| 14:37 | <@Wizard> | Maintained by the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) |
| 14:38 | <@TheWatcher> | "exact" is a bit generous sometimes~ |
| 14:38 | <@Wizard> | For example, Telnet has a series of RFCs detailing how it works |
| 14:38 | <@Wizard> | TheWatcher: A good effort is made, though |
| 14:38 | <@TheWatcher> | True |
| 14:38 | <@Tarinaky> | RFC = Request For Comments. |
| 14:38 | <@TheWatcher> | Meatyhandbag: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telnet#Related_RFCs |
| 14:39 | <@Wizard> | 854 should be enough to get started, no? |
| 14:39 | <@TheWatcher> | Yep |
| 14:40 | <@Wizard> | Basically, if you want to use or understand common internetworking methods, being able to read RFCs is super useful if not mandatory |
| 14:41 | <@Wizard> | Of course those are usually only the starting point |
| 14:41 | <@Wizard> | For example, real-world IRC is far beyond RFC specifications (pinging Shiz for Y/N) |
| 14:42 | <@Shiz> | hhhhhhyes |
| 14:42 | <@Shiz> | yes* |
| 14:42 | <@Shiz> | https://github.com/grawity/irc-docs |
| 14:42 | <@Shiz> | an instance of all the relevant stuff /beyond/ 1459 |
| 14:43 | <@Wizard> | Was that a good enough list for your work on <I forget the project name> or did you need to do more yourself? |
| 14:43 | <@TheWatcher> | And to implement the email RFCs correctly, you essntially need to become an expert in trans-dimensional coding, because it's impossible to implement them all in a single consistent reality~ |
| 14:43 | <@Shiz> | i didn't know it back then |
| 14:43 | <@Shiz> | lol |
| 14:43 | <@Shiz> | of it* |
| 14:43 | <@Wizard> | Lol, oops |
| 14:43 | <@Shiz> | so i did a lot of googling |
| 14:43 | <@Shiz> | and obscure .txt files in long forgotten cvs repos |
| 14:44 | <@Shiz> | made it eventually work |
| 14:44 | <@Wizard> | I like how pydle got starred as much as the IRC docs did |
| 14:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | Wizard: OTOH, a client that only speaks RFC1459 and drops anything it doesn't understand will at least be able to communicate with pretty much any IRC server, even if not all the fancy features/modes are understood. |
| 14:47 | <@Shiz> | not strictly |
| 14:47 | <@Shiz> | because rfc1459 is very badly worded |
| 14:47 | <@Wizard> | ToxicFrog: See the real solution is to write a client that will, whenever it encounters unknown functionality, PRIVMSG all active channels on that network with an incensed speech on standardization |
| 14:47 | <@Shiz> | if you strictly comply with 1459 you're not gonna have much fun |
| 14:48 | <@Tamber> | Wizard, the IRC client equivalent to being That Guy? :p |
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| 14:48 | <@Wizard> | Yeah |
| 14:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | Shiz: which parts are problematic? |
| 14:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | Assuming that you're browser-strict, i.e. "be liberal in what you accept and strict in what you send" |
| 14:50 | <@Shiz> | a general tendency for vague wording |
| 14:51 | <@Shiz> | how to exactly do certain things |
| 14:51 | <@Shiz> | also the fun casemapping issue |
| 14:51 | <@Shiz> | that resulted in rfc1459 and strict-rfc1459 casemappings |
| 14:52 | <@Shiz> | also |
| 14:52 | <@Shiz> | it doesn't specify that a lot of servers don't send out unknown command replies during registration |
| 14:52 | <@Shiz> | so if you try to probe something during registration you're going to have a bad time/hangs |
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| 14:54 | <@Tarinaky> | Anyway, I thought an RFC was a proposal rather than a standard. |
| 14:55 | <@Shiz> | an RFC can be in various stages |
| 14:55 | <@Shiz> | RFCs on the Standards Track are very much standards |
| 14:55 | <@Tarinaky> | Ah. |
| 14:56 | <@Shiz> | and preferably you're #1 go-to if you want to know about the standard |
| 14:56 | <@Shiz> | your* |
| 14:57 | <@Tarinaky> | Meanwhile, in work land... Just been told to use a 'better editor'... |
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| --- Log closed Wed Apr 01 14:59:00 2015 |
| --- Log opened Wed Apr 01 15:22:23 2015 |
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| 15:49 | <@gnolam> | Mmm, remote admin at 3 kB/s ;_; |
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| 15:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | gnolam: funsies. |
| 15:58 | < Meatyhandbag> | would it be smarter to first make a single-player MUD and then focus on networking once the MUD itself is made? |
| 15:59 | <@Wizard> | I suggest you make a dumb "networking component" |
| 16:00 | <@Wizard> | Implement the basic methods for it and either have them return dummy values or random ones or whatever |
| 16:00 | <@Wizard> | But if you don't at least have the basic network interface included from the start you will have a hard time incorporating netplay later on |
| 16:01 | < Meatyhandbag> | ok |
| 16:08 | <@iospace> | welcome, Meatyhandbag |
| 16:08 | < Meatyhandbag> | thx |
| 16:09 | <@Wizard> | Meatyhandbag: You missed the responses btw |
| 16:09 | <@iospace> | unless you're not new and such :P |
| 16:09 | < Meatyhandbag> | sorry, i'm in college |
| 16:09 | < Meatyhandbag> | space, i've been here for about a week now |
| 16:09 | < Meatyhandbag> | i come in and out during this time of the day |
| 16:09 | < Meatyhandbag> | Wizard, what did i miss? |
| 16:10 | <@Wizard> | Meatyhandbag: http://pastebin.com/B7LTemDJ |
| 16:10 | < Meatyhandbag> | no, i got that, i just didn't have anything to reply |
| 16:11 | <@Wizard> | Ah |
| 16:11 | <@Wizard> | I saw your comment about your question being lost and figured you missed it |
| 16:12 | < Meatyhandbag> | no, i was asking about the single player thing |
| 16:14 | <@gnolam> | Meatyhandbag: there is a bit of handshaking in the beginning - which you can usually start off ignoring - but other than that, you can pretty much just blast ASCII to the other end and you have Telnet. |
| 16:14 | < Meatyhandbag> | huh? |
| 16:15 | <@gnolam> | [14:57:25] <Meatyhandbag> gnolam: you still on? |
| 16:15 | <@gnolam> | [15:06:42] <gnolam> s |
| 16:15 | <@gnolam> | [15:06:45] <gnolam> *Sort of. |
| 16:15 | <@gnolam> | [15:09:59] <Meatyhandbag> tell me more of telnet? |
| 16:15 | < Meatyhandbag> | right, i said huh because i did not follow what you were talking about |
| 16:16 | <@gnolam> | ... ah. |
| 16:17 | < Meatyhandbag> | what do you mean by handshaking, blasting ascii, etc |
| 16:18 | <@gnolam> | ASCII: American Standard Code for Information Interchange. The most basic text encoding you'll come across. |
| 16:18 | < Meatyhandbag> | I know what ascii is |
| 16:18 | < Meatyhandbag> | I was wondering what you meant by it's relation |
| 16:19 | < Meatyhandbag> | What does ascci have to do with telnet |
| 16:19 | <@gnolam> | Handshaking: initial negotiation or information exchange between two systems connecting with each other. |
| 16:20 | <@gnolam> | Telnet in its most basic form is just sending ASCII text from one end to the other. |
| 16:26 | < Meatyhandbag> | ok |
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| 23:11 | <@Thalass> | https://www.gentoo.org/news/2015/03/31/website-update.html |
| 23:12 | <@Thalass> | Damn. Now I'm all nostalgic. |
| 23:20 | <@TheWatcher> | ahahah |
| 23:20 | <@TheWatcher> | Thalass: use elinks then ;P |
| 23:20 | <&McMartin> | This magenta is not eye-searing enough |
| 23:20 | <&McMartin> | Also I *totally do* use elinks >_> |
| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | If you want to actually kick it CGA style 3drealms.com offers Pharaoh's Tomb and Monuments of Mars as free downloads |
| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | I actually had nontrivial amounts of fun playing Pharaoh's Tomb |
| 23:22 | <&McMartin> | (Monuments of Mars, despite being a more 'modern' game design in terms of not having old-school BS in it, was nevertheless a worse design IMO and I sort of gave up on it during episode 1 :/) |
| --- Log closed Thu Apr 02 00:00:17 2015 |