| --- Log opened Wed Mar 25 00:00:28 2015 |
| --- Day changed Wed Mar 25 2015 |
| 00:00 | <&Derakon> | Man, signals analysis has always made my head hurt. |
| 00:20 | <&McMartin> | I can just barely see the contours of grasping digital signal processing, and getting information out of frequency &c from that |
| 00:20 | <&McMartin> | Because I accept that Fourier analysis is a thing |
| 00:21 | <&McMartin> | But apparently you can embody it physically for analog and that's the part where I lose the plot. |
| 00:21 | <&McMartin> | But then wiki implies that the physics is something completely different and that this will have the effect of frequency mod/demodulation. |
| 00:33 | <~Vornicus> | From what I understand, you build a circuit where the, uh |
| 00:33 | <~Vornicus> | oh, how do I put this |
| 00:33 | <~Vornicus> | you can embody second-order differential equations physically with electronic components like capacitors |
| 00:34 | < [R]> | Is it technobabble hour? |
| 00:34 | <~Vornicus> | well, second-order differential equations with constant coefficients. |
| 00:34 | < [R]> | It is! |
| 00:34 | <~Vornicus> | No, this is technoactualstuff hour |
| 00:38 | <~Vornicus> | and when nothing's happening you get the homogeneous solution which (through conservation of energy) reduces to 0, but then you add a wave and the wave is the heterogeneous component, which gives a different solution, which you can toss at a speaker or whatever |
| 00:39 | <~Vornicus> | So then tuning, what you do (usually) is you have a variable resistor |
| 00:40 | <~Vornicus> | Which lets you change a coefficient |
| 00:40 | | * Thalass reads that, goes crosseyed |
| 00:41 | <~Vornicus> | Math is amazing |
| 00:42 | <@Thalass> | Yes. Modulated signal goes in, goes through the detection circuit, which spits out the sum and difference products, and the one you want is selected for in the filtering. With AM that can happen several times (intermediate frequencies) before what's left is audio and that gets amplified to the speakers. In FM my memory is fuzzy but I think it's a bit more straightforward, hardware wise at least. |
| 00:42 | <@Thalass> | To be honest since I've discovered software defined radio I've started to forget the old ways :P |
| 00:42 | | Thalass is now known as Thalaway |
| 01:46 | | Thalaway is now known as Thalass |
| 02:52 | <&McMartin> | The fact that FM is the more straightforward one from an analog standpoint is one of the things that blows my tiny digital mind |
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| 03:20 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: I understand that AM was simpler from a technology point of view, though? |
| 03:20 | <&McMartin> | It was certainly invented first |
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| 03:33 | <@Thalass> | The components needed to do FM, particularly in the MHz range, weren't really practical until semiconductors were invented. |
| 03:34 | <&McMartin> | AM is the one that looks like a giant inductor, right? |
| 03:34 | <@Thalass> | You can do AM with thermionic valves! Crazy primative things |
| 03:34 | <@Thalass> | The lower the frequency the larger the components, generally, yeah. |
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| 03:48 | <~Vornicus> | iirc your most efficient transmitting antenna is 1/2 or 1/4 your wavelength. at 800kHz that's, um, 90 or 180 m. at 100MHz it's 0.75 or 1.5 m. |
| 03:53 | < Turaiel> | C++ question for you guys, if you're up to it |
| 03:53 | <&McMartin> | Fire away |
| 03:53 | < Turaiel> | I have a class which is comprised of only static members. The particular members in question are private, and I need to define their initial values in the C++ source |
| 03:53 | < Turaiel> | But I segfault when I do that |
| 03:54 | <&McMartin> | Is this source you can post? |
| 03:54 | < Turaiel> | Not fully |
| 03:54 | <&McMartin> | If not I can give general guidelines |
| 03:54 | < Turaiel> | An example: Semaphore* SynchConsole::readAvail = new Semaphore("read avail", 0); |
| 03:54 | <&McMartin> | That's enough to know. |
| 03:55 | <&McMartin> | It is not safe to do any "real" work in static constructors. |
| 03:55 | <&McMartin> | They run before the program is properly initialized, in effectively random order, and occasionally fuck up in hilarious ways anyway. |
| 03:55 | < Turaiel> | I see. What should I do instead? |
| 03:56 | <&McMartin> | There's a general class of techniques that usually gets glossed as "Singleton" |
| 03:56 | <&McMartin> | But that's more "reinventing global variables poorly" when done stupidly |
| 03:56 | <&McMartin> | This is a little tricky because your fields are apparently all private |
| 03:56 | <&McMartin> | So, uh, first, a digression |
| 03:56 | <&McMartin> | If all the members are private, what good are they? |
| 03:57 | < Turaiel> | There are two public methods |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | Or is it just the static parts that are private |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | Ah OK |
| 03:57 | < Turaiel> | Everything is static though |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | OK |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | Then there are two options here, basically |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | (a) have a third method to initialize the statics, call it in main() |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | (b) have calling either of the two methods check to see if everything's been initialized yet, and if not, do so |
| 03:58 | <&McMartin> | Note that for (b) you will need some extra synchronization to make sure that the thing is initialized atomically. boost::once is handy for that. |
| 03:58 | <&McMartin> | You didn't ask for this, but I'll volunteer it; if everything is static, consider using namespaces instead of classes |
| 03:58 | < Turaiel> | a and extra synchronization are out |
| 03:58 | < Turaiel> | The assignment calls for a class here |
| 03:59 | <&McMartin> | Oh, this is homework |
| 03:59 | < Turaiel> | Yeah |
| 03:59 | <&McMartin> | Your teachers are lying to you |
| 03:59 | < Turaiel> | It's a very /old/ assignment |
| 03:59 | < Turaiel> | I don't know if you've heard of the Nachos assignment. It's from 1992. |
| 03:59 | <&McMartin> | I am, in fact, aware of NACHOS. |
| 04:00 | < Turaiel> | The implementation of this class in particular is fully up to me. There's no skeleton or anything. |
| 04:01 | <&McMartin> | Well, beyond the two public methods, it sounds like. |
| 04:01 | <&McMartin> | Or, since we're being honest here |
| 04:01 | <&McMartin> | the two functions |
| 04:01 | < Turaiel> | Those are up to me as well |
| 04:02 | < Turaiel> | I'm just following the convention of "if it doesn't need to be public, it shouldn't be" |
| 04:02 | <&McMartin> | Why are you using statics, then? |
| 04:02 | < Turaiel> | I need to use a class that doesn't need to be instantiated |
| 04:02 | < Turaiel> | Because various methods elsewhere use the same console |
| 04:03 | <&McMartin> | Define "instantiated" here |
| 04:03 | < Turaiel> | I don't want to have an instance of it |
| 04:03 | < Turaiel> | I'm essentially trying to make a static class |
| 04:03 | <&McMartin> | That's called "a function and some global variables with inaccessible names" |
| 04:03 | <&McMartin> | However |
| 04:03 | <&McMartin> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singleton_pattern |
| 04:03 | <&McMartin> | This is my formal answer here |
| 04:04 | <&McMartin> | You almost certainly want initialize on demand here |
| 04:04 | <&McMartin> | Particularly if attempting to create a mutex at static initialization time crashes the runtime. |
| 04:05 | <&McMartin> | SynchConsole::instance()->stuff() |
| 04:05 | <&McMartin> | And then instance() always returns the same object, creating it the first time and recycling it the remaining times. |
| 04:05 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 04:05 | <&McMartin> | static initializers in C++ run before main() begins in effectively random order, so you do not get to rely on anything more complex than, like, 2+2 while setting them up. |
| 04:06 | < Turaiel> | I see, |
| 04:06 | <&McMartin> | (This is also true for C but you don't run into it nearly as much there) |
| 04:09 | <&McMartin> | Unfortunately, these examples are in Java, which doesn't have the same need for them as C++, and only really has them due to language deficiencies around not having a global namespace for non-classes. |
| 04:10 | < Turaiel> | I found a couple examples on SO |
| 04:10 | < Turaiel> | Trying to understand them |
| 04:11 | < Turaiel> | I'm guessing that once I have the relevant instance stuff in there, I just need to remove all the statics |
| 04:12 | <&McMartin> | Pretty much |
| 04:12 | <&McMartin> | If you can guarantee that a unique thread will be setting you up - that is, that there won't be race conditions during first use - you can just put conditional intialization at the start |
| 04:13 | < Turaiel> | Gotcha |
| 04:13 | < Turaiel> | I don't know if I can guarantee that when Nachos is running a user program which makes calls to this |
| 04:14 | <&McMartin> | Without a pre-existing synchronization technique that doesn't require anything more complex than an integer, you *cannot* do it fully safely |
| 04:15 | <&McMartin> | (and a test-and-set or test-and-increment or compare-and-swap intrinsic) |
| 04:15 | <&McMartin> | If I were writing for an 8-bit chip, I'd disable interrupts during first initialization with something like the double-lock example. |
| 04:16 | < Turaiel> | I guess I can just try my luck with the initialization |
| 04:16 | <~Vornicus> | hooray critical sections |
| 04:16 | < Turaiel> | Since there isn't any synchronization available that I don't have to initialize |
| 04:17 | <&McMartin> | Wait |
| 04:17 | <&McMartin> | What happens if your static is not a pointer |
| 04:17 | < Turaiel> | What do you mean? |
| 04:18 | <&McMartin> | 20:48 < Turaiel> An example: Semaphore* SynchConsole::readAvail = new Semaphore("read avail", 0);in |
| 04:18 | <&McMartin> | An equivalent: Semaphore SynchConsole::readAvail("read avail", 0); |
| 04:18 | < Turaiel> | Dunno. I was under the impression that all objects had to have new. |
| 04:18 | <&McMartin> | ... no, this is C++ |
| 04:19 | < Turaiel> | Right. That's what I thought was the case for C++. |
| 04:19 | < Turaiel> | To be honest, I have very little experience with C++ |
| 04:19 | <&McMartin> | OK, I was about to ask if you had formal training in C++ |
| 04:19 | < Turaiel> | My university teaches mainly C |
| 04:19 | < Turaiel> | C89 and C90 |
| 04:19 | < Turaiel> | With a tiny bit of Java in the first year |
| 04:20 | <&McMartin> | OK, so, this is important |
| 04:20 | < Turaiel> | I haven't gotten around to teaching myself C++ |
| 04:21 | <&McMartin> | OK, so, you can declare objects of any class the same way you declare, like, ints |
| 04:21 | < Turaiel> | Wait, if I set those things that need to be initialized to static, can I just create a new instance each time I need to use the console and have them remain initialized? |
| 04:21 | <&McMartin> | Um, that would be real bad for a Semaphore |
| 04:21 | <&McMartin> | You'll be leaking the old value that you're trashing |
| 04:21 | < Turaiel> | :/ |
| 04:22 | < Turaiel> | I feel as though this shouldn't be as complicated as I'm making it. |
| 04:22 | <&McMartin> | C++ is a chainsaw with additional chainsaws for grips. |
| 04:23 | <~Vornicus> | objects you just make show up on the stack. |
| 04:24 | < Turaiel> | I tried changing them so they weren't pointers, and it's still segfaulting |
| 04:24 | <~Vornicus> | well, or in the grid |
| 04:24 | <&McMartin> | If you're actually doing OS hacking - and you are, that's what NACHOS is - and you aren't yet clear on the distinction between stack and heap objects - which you apparently aren't |
| 04:24 | <&McMartin> | So, you have tried starting it in GDB and getting a stack trace at the point of crash, right |
| 04:25 | < Turaiel> | I actually don't know how to use GDB |
| 04:25 | <&McMartin> | But, yeah, um, you need to give yourself a crash course in the basics of the language, or you're going to keep failing for no obvious reason and it will be a different one every time. |
| 04:25 | < Turaiel> | We got a brief overview in one of my classes once. I never had a reason to use it. |
| 04:25 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that's not going to be good enough for literally writing OS components |
| 04:26 | < Turaiel> | I know my way around for the most part |
| 04:26 | <&McMartin> | I don't actually believe you on this point |
| 04:26 | < Turaiel> | It's just small details like this that are difficult to find answers to on Google |
| 04:26 | < Turaiel> | I can pick up a new language pretty easily just by using it most of the time |
| 04:26 | <&McMartin> | That's... that's really not a small detail. |
| 04:27 | <&McMartin> | That's like not knowing about .equals() in Java |
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| 04:27 | < Turaiel> | I know the difference between heap and stack objects. I didn't know how new worked in C++. |
| 04:28 | <&McMartin> | 21:11 < Turaiel> Dunno. I was under the impression that all objects had to have new. |
| 04:28 | <&McMartin> | This means you didn't know stack objects existed |
| 04:29 | < Turaiel> | The stack and heap are not things that generally cross my mind as I'm thinking about this stuff. |
| 04:29 | <&McMartin> | (since new exclusively[*] creates heap objects) |
| 04:29 | < Turaiel> | Every time I've seen an object created in C++, it had new. Therefore, I assumed that they all had to have new. |
| 04:29 | <&McMartin> | [*] Except for placement new, but don't go there |
| 04:30 | < Turaiel> | Sigh. This channel is feeling an awful lot like my FreeNode experience tonight |
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| 04:31 | <&McMartin> | I'm serious about the "you should probably burn through a hit-the-high-notes basic tutorial for the language" |
| 04:31 | < Turaiel> | I don't have time for that. |
| 04:32 | < Turaiel> | Anyway, this isn't what I came here to discuss |
| 04:32 | <&McMartin> | Then you don't have time for me to try to teach you enough to not fail at your task, and that's more effort than I'm willing to spend |
| 04:32 | < Turaiel> | I appreciate your explanations |
| 04:32 | < Turaiel> | But you're being condescending to me. That does the opposite of help me. |
| 04:33 | < Turaiel> | It's also only very loosely related to the problem that I came in here to ask about. |
| 04:33 | <&McMartin> | OK, I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm trying to panic you, as it were. |
| 04:33 | < Turaiel> | Panic is not what I need at 12:30 AM. |
| 04:33 | < Turaiel> | I can already hardly code at this time |
| 04:33 | <&McMartin> | Right, I should be clear about that |
| 04:33 | < Turaiel> | I understand that there are things I don't know about this language |
| 04:34 | < Turaiel> | I'm able to pick up that knowledge by experiencing issues and asking about it. That's how I learn best. |
| 04:34 | <&McMartin> | Right, so, in this case, that's "you're failing during pre-main() initialization, probably because malloc() isn't ready to go yet" |
| 04:35 | < Turaiel> | gdb is showing that a completely unrelated component is segfaulting |
| 04:35 | < Turaiel> | Or very loosely related, I'm not sure. |
| 04:35 | <&McMartin> | But C++ has *so* many edge cases and surprising fatal behaviors and arcane semantics that learning by example is, in my actually professional opinion, a fool's errand |
| 04:35 | <&McMartin> | Post the backtrace |
| 04:36 | <&McMartin> | ("bt" to repeat it if it's scrolled off) |
| 04:36 | < Turaiel> | It's very short. |
| 04:36 | <&McMartin> | I can't see it from here, nevertheless. Please post it. |
| 04:36 | < Turaiel> | http://pastebin.com/4x9DMBcn |
| 04:36 | < Turaiel> | I was working on it. |
| 04:36 | < Turaiel> | No need to be snippy. :/ |
| 04:37 | <&McMartin> | Hrm. That's the crashpoint. Can you type "bt"? |
| 04:37 | < Turaiel> | http://pastebin.com/T1qzYD2E |
| 04:38 | <&McMartin> | OK. |
| 04:38 | <&McMartin> | From the bottom up |
| 04:39 | <&McMartin> | We're initializing the C/C++ runtime itself. Then we hit __do_global_ctors_aux - "Do Global Constructors". That includes the statics. |
| 04:39 | <&McMartin> | Your line 59 is calling Console's constructor, it seems. |
| 04:40 | <&McMartin> | And then that's trying to call Interrupt::Schedule before main() starts. |
| 04:40 | < Turaiel> | I see. |
| 04:40 | <&McMartin> | When you said SynchConsole had "only static members" did you mean you were only *adding* static members to a class that already existed and from which you were inheriting? |
| 04:40 | < Turaiel> | No. It does not inherit anything. |
| 04:40 | <&McMartin> | What is line 59? |
| 04:40 | < Turaiel> | Everything is static. |
| 04:41 | < Turaiel> | 59 is in console.cc. That is outside my code. |
| 04:41 | <&McMartin> | What is line 11? |
| 04:41 | < Turaiel> | This file is synchconsole.cc |
| 04:41 | < Turaiel> | Console SynchConsole::console = Console(NULL, NULL, |
| 04:41 | < Turaiel> | SynchConsole::ReadAvail, SynchConsole::WriteDone, 0); |
| 04:42 | <&McMartin> | OK |
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| 04:42 | <&McMartin> | That is a constructor call. |
| 04:42 | < Turaiel> | Yes. |
| 04:42 | <&McMartin> | You are trying to create a Console object prior to main() starting. That is failing because it's not ready for that yet. |
| 04:42 | < Turaiel> | Right. |
| 04:42 | <&McMartin> | So Don't Do That. |
| 04:43 | < Turaiel> | And that's the part where we began looking for alternatives |
| 04:43 | <&McMartin> | I already posted it. The stock solution is a singleton that initializes on first use. |
| 04:43 | < Turaiel> | But you said that requires synchronization |
| 04:44 | <&McMartin> | Or ensuring that you are not multithreaded at the time, yes. |
| 04:44 | <&McMartin> | If you remove the console, does the semaphore correctly initialize? It may secretly just be an integer. |
| 04:45 | < Turaiel> | It does not segfault if I remove the console |
| 04:45 | < Turaiel> | So I guess that means I can use a singleton and synchronize it. |
| 04:45 | <&McMartin> | Yes. |
| 04:47 | <&McMartin> | Also, while it is not a complete tutorial, you may get some use out of the book "How Not To Program In C++", which is an exercise book of 111 subtly wrong C++ programs (and 3 working ones!) and puzzles posed about them. |
| 04:51 | < Turaiel> | Perhaps when I get around to buying books |
| 04:51 | < Turaiel> | I'm nearing graduation, so all my time is in finishing up my last classes :P |
| 04:52 | < Turaiel> | Hm. My program appears to have gotten angry |
| 04:55 | < Turaiel> | It apparently does not appreciate my initializing the mutex and initialization boolean at the start. |
| 04:57 | < Turaiel> | ../userprog/synchconsole.cc:7: error: âSemaphore* SynchConsole::initMutexâ is not a static member of âclass SynchConsoleâ |
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| 04:58 | <&McMartin> | That's a... pretty straightforward error message |
| 04:59 | < Turaiel> | Right, but didn't you say earlier that making the semaphores static was a bad idea? |
| 04:59 | < Turaiel> | Or did I misinterpret what you said? |
| 04:59 | <&McMartin> | I was saying calling new in statics was dodgy |
| 04:59 | <&McMartin> | In the "works if at all only by accident" sense |
| 04:59 | <&McMartin> | But if it was working it will probably be OK as long as you're running it on the machine it will be tested on. |
| 05:00 | < Turaiel> | Inside my initialization function, it's claiming that all of my private members are not declared |
| 05:01 | <&McMartin> | So, if the init function isn't in the class, it can't see private members |
| 05:01 | <&McMartin> | If you didn't declare those members static, a static function can't see them |
| 05:01 | < Turaiel> | The initialization function is a private class member |
| 05:01 | < Turaiel> | And the function is not static |
| 05:02 | <&McMartin> | keep going |
| 05:02 | < Turaiel> | Nor are any other variables except init and initMutex |
| 05:02 | <&McMartin> | keep going |
| 05:02 | <&McMartin> | (static in this sense works the way it does in Java, not the way it does in C) |
| 05:03 | <&McMartin> | You've got what you need to know in front of you; you just need to put the pieces together |
| 05:03 | < Turaiel> | Heh, I should have just put some globals somewhere and dealt with that xD |
| 05:04 | <&McMartin> | That was *my* first suggestion~ |
| 05:04 | < Turaiel> | But I wanted to take the "better" route |
| 05:04 | <&McMartin> | That said, it is super important that globals in C++ start out as NULL or some constant |
| 05:04 | <&McMartin> | That's something you won't pick up from scanning code |
| 05:04 | < Turaiel> | I don't really know where I would put the globals anyway |
| 05:04 | <&McMartin> | You've used "static" in C, right? |
| 05:05 | < Turaiel> | I've only learned about it. I never had to use it. |
| 05:05 | <&McMartin> | it can also be used that way in C++, but the better way to do it is to wrap it in a nameless namespace. |
| 05:05 | < Turaiel> | And that was three years ago |
| 05:05 | <&McMartin> | namespace { int a; } |
| 05:05 | <&McMartin> | Now only the enclosing scope (usually the file) can see a. |
| 05:05 | <&McMartin> | But a is otherwise a "global" |
| 05:06 | <&McMartin> | That's actually better, IMO, than a class where every member is private static |
| 05:06 | < Turaiel> | I don't know which file would contain the globals |
| 05:06 | <&McMartin> | oh. yours, of course. |
| 05:07 | <&McMartin> | (since synchconsole is the only file you get to edit, right?) |
| 05:07 | < Turaiel> | I actually modify quite a few files |
| 05:07 | < Turaiel> | This is a tiny sliver of the assignment |
| 05:07 | < Turaiel> | The rest is implementing syscalls, exceptions, memory management, multiprogramming, and exec |
| 05:09 | <&McMartin> | well, good luck |
| 05:09 | < Turaiel> | That won't be much of a problem |
| 05:10 | < Turaiel> | I just needed to get into the swing of things today. It's been about a month since I last touched nachos and C++ (and programming in general). |
| 05:10 | < Turaiel> | I got most of the system calls done already. I've been prodding the SynchConsole on and off |
| 05:11 | < Turaiel> | Probably just sounds like excuses to you. |
| 05:12 | <&McMartin> | I'm used to NACHOS courses having as a prerequisite at least half a year of intensive data structures training and/or a C++ project course |
| 05:12 | <&McMartin> | And based on our conversation here if I were advertising for a C++ position you wouldn't have made it two questions past a phone screen :/ |
| 05:13 | <&McMartin> | But, you know, you are literally a student |
| 05:13 | < Turaiel> | The only prerequisite for this course is Concurrent Programming (which is a C course) |
| 05:13 | < Turaiel> | Which in turn only requires Systems Programming (also C) |
| 05:13 | < Turaiel> | That said, I've taken most of the classes in the curriculum here. |
| 05:14 | < Turaiel> | This and Concurrent are the only ones that dabble in C++ |
| 05:14 | <&McMartin> | And it sounds like it's one of the curricula that generally assumes you'll pick up the languages as you go along |
| 05:14 | < Turaiel> | That's right. It's designed to teach students to learn languages themselves. |
| 05:14 | <&McMartin> | I assume this is an OS course |
| 05:14 | < Turaiel> | Yep |
| 05:14 | < Turaiel> | Also my final CS course |
| 05:15 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, speaking as a former TA: "Given what's being asked of you and waht you've been asking here, I think you're behind the curve on this stuff ATM" |
| 05:15 | < Turaiel> | That's a shame. |
| 05:16 | <&McMartin> | So: good luck, and if C++ is part of the ultimate plan, find some books (I stand by the puzzle book from before, and the official Stroustrup C++ book is pricy but worth it) |
| 05:16 | < Turaiel> | From what I gather I'm actually one of the better programmers in my class (and that's not just me being narcissistic) |
| 05:16 | < Turaiel> | I'm (maybe unfortunately) a web developer by profession |
| 05:16 | < Turaiel> | C++ is on my list of things to work with on my own though |
| 05:17 | <&McMartin> | cplusplus.com is a superb library reference, but an awful tutorial. |
| 05:17 | < Turaiel> | I noticed xD |
| 05:17 | <&McMartin> | Stroustrup's core book is the best tutorial I know |
| 05:17 | < Turaiel> | I'd prefer books for learning languages |
| 05:17 | < Turaiel> | But as I said, no time for that now |
| 05:17 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 05:17 | < Turaiel> | Once I have some down time when I'm back at my job and settled into my apartment |
| 05:18 | <&McMartin> | But I've actually been a systems and applications programmer at widely varying target levels for like a decade, almost all in C++. |
| 05:18 | < Turaiel> | (and not distracted by Reddit for the entirety of my free time) |
| 05:18 | <&McMartin> | I *still* consult that book I learned on at first, albeit a few editions later |
| 05:18 | <&McMartin> | It's *really good* |
| 05:18 | < Turaiel> | I actually did not want to go into web dev.. |
| 05:19 | <&McMartin> | http://www.amazon.com/The-Programming-Language-4th-Edition/dp/0321563840 |
| 05:19 | <&McMartin> | (My personal copy is actually the 2nd edition, IIRC) |
| 05:19 | < Turaiel> | I'll make a bookmark |
| 05:21 | < Turaiel> | I got C++ for Dummies back in middle school |
| 05:21 | < Turaiel> | Tried to start reading it again a few years ago and it's *awful* |
| 05:21 | <&McMartin> | The language has changed drastically over the years, several times |
| 05:21 | < Turaiel> | It's also just a terrible book in general |
| 05:21 | <&McMartin> | It didn't get any decent-quality compilers until 2005, by the usual standards of "decent quality" |
| 05:22 | <&McMartin> | (It had commercially usable compilers as far back as the 1980s) |
| 05:22 | <&McMartin> | (The 1990s were... interesting) |
| 05:22 | < Turaiel> | It's probably just that it's oversimplified which is an issue for me, being a generally experienced programmer. |
| 05:23 | < Turaiel> | http://i.imgur.com/Fpyq9XI.png <-- This is my collection of books |
| 05:23 | < Turaiel> | A lot of them I got for free or very cheap xD |
| 05:24 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey, Ullman |
| 05:24 | < Turaiel> | I actually had to use an edition of that book for my database course last semester |
| 05:25 | < Turaiel> | Mine's a first edition though, I think. I got a digital copy of the newer one from someone :P |
| 05:26 | < Turaiel> | Alright, I need to go to bed very badly. I need to be up in less than seven house. |
| 05:26 | < Turaiel> | hours* |
| 05:26 | < Turaiel> | Good night. Thanks for the help. I'm switching to globals tomorrow :P |
| 05:26 | <&McMartin> | Hide them in a namespace =P |
| 05:26 | < Turaiel> | I wil think about that |
| 05:27 | | AverageJoe [evil1@Nightstar-pqipp9.sd.cox.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 05:27 | < Turaiel> | Before I go though - are you suggesting to just put the variables in a namespace, or the whole thing? |
| 05:28 | <&McMartin> | The stuff that would have been private goes in an anonymous namespace so only that file can see it. the methods that people are supposed to call go outside of the namespace, as global-scale functions. |
| 05:28 | < Turaiel> | Gotcha |
| 05:28 | < Turaiel> | That's what I thought |
| 05:28 | < Turaiel> | Thanks. |
| 05:28 | <&McMartin> | Basically: "Encapsulation is great. You don't *actually* need OO to do it." |
| 05:28 | <&McMartin> | "But do it." |
| 05:29 | <&McMartin> | Named namespaces can be used in ways not unlike packages, but that's solving a different problem |
| 05:29 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
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| 06:16 | | * McMartin deploys currying in JavaScript for no good reason. |
| 06:35 | <@Shiz> | s/currying in // |
| 07:11 | <&McMartin> | Oh, desploying JS *at all* is because it's lightweight dynamic web content. |
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| 07:30 | < AverageJoe> | / |
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| 09:46 | | kourbou [holoirc@Nightstar-hbh.1kg.164.37.IP] has joined #code |
| 09:54 | | * TheWatcher readsup, eyes Turaiel's books, responds with the obligatory http://fleet.starforge.co.uk/images/bookshelf.jpg ~ |
| 09:54 | | kourbou|phone [holoirc@Nightstar-pvg.v2k.161.37.IP] has joined #code |
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| 09:59 | <@Wizard> | Shiz might appreciate that as well |
| 09:59 | <@Shiz> | nice opengl books |
| 10:00 | <@TheWatcher> | Need to get the new ones, heyho |
| 10:01 | <@Shiz> | htts://up.shiz.me/OTU1YjZk.jpg |
| 10:01 | <@Shiz> | this is my tiny tiny library |
| 10:02 | <@Shiz> | err |
| 10:02 | <@Shiz> | https://up.shiz.me/OTU1YjZk.jpg |
| 10:03 | | kourbou|phone [holoirc@Nightstar-pvg.v2k.161.37.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 10:03 | <@TheWatcher> | (at some point I guess I should get the 4e of Stroustrup, too) |
| 10:04 | | * TheWatcher eyes |
| 10:06 | <@Shiz> | and my *other* tiny library https://up.shiz.me/MGUyZDk3.jpg |
| 10:06 | <@Wizard> | Shiz: Nice, same versions of MOS and dragon that I have |
| 10:06 | <@Wizard> | Here's mine https://scontent-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/l/t31.0-8/s2048x2048/10003630_102 05419360222408_4679512941356453170_o.jpg |
| 10:07 | <@TheWatcher> | Shiz: "Principles of chemsitry"? |
| 10:07 | <@Wizard> | The Art of UNIX Programming is a great book |
| 10:07 | <@Shiz> | TheWatcher: sure |
| 10:08 | <@Shiz> | uni course ;p |
| 10:08 | <@Shiz> | also nothing wrong with chemistry |
| 10:08 | <@Shiz> | Wizard: noice |
| 10:08 | <@Shiz> | i wish i had TAOUP |
| 10:12 | <@Wizard> | Shiz: I got most of mine raiding the obsoleted books when my uni library was being renovated |
| 10:13 | <@Wizard> | Like ancient X admin handbooks and case studies on obscure OSes nobody heard about again |
| 10:13 | <@TheWatcher> | Most of my bookshelf at home is taken up with Game Programming Gems and OpenGL books these days. I don't even want to think how much I spent on them >.< |
| 10:13 | <@Shiz> | i'm just getting into openg |
| 10:13 | <@Shiz> | l |
| 10:13 | <@Shiz> | it feels like entering a world of pain |
| 10:14 | <@TheWatcher> | You need to have a certain sort of mind, and be willing to lose it.~ |
| 10:14 | <@Wizard> | Have you stayed in touch with one, Shiz? |
| 10:15 | <@Shiz> | anyway |
| 10:15 | <@Shiz> | at least it allows me to render cool cyberpunk backgrounds |
| 10:15 | <@Shiz> | https://up.shiz.me/MzE4MDEy.png |
| 10:15 | <@Shiz> | no further postproc needed |
| 10:16 | <@gnolam> | Wizard: "Märken och människor"? |
| 10:16 | <@Wizard> | I do love how proud the sprite looks there |
| 10:16 | <@Wizard> | gnolam: Hanken entrance exam |
| 10:16 | <@TheWatcher> | Shiz: that's, uh... yes. |
| 10:16 | <@Shiz> | you can cut at least 3 vaporwave album covers from this image |
| 10:17 | <@Shiz> | and people tell me opengl isn't efficient |
| 10:18 | <@Shiz> | Wizard: "i'll be your guide in this insane world" |
| 10:20 | <@Wizard> | You might as well use it for the radio background |
| 10:39 | | * TheWatcher O.os at his build of emacs |
| 10:39 | <@TheWatcher> | Suddently it starts changing the mouse pointer to different shapes in different places, wtf |
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| 10:55 | | mode/#code [+o Red_Queen] by ChanServ |
| 11:10 | <@Tarinaky> | Fsss... |
| 11:11 | <@Tarinaky> | I really hate it when I miss calls from withheld numbers. |
| 11:11 | <@Tarinaky> | GP surgery says it wasn't them. |
| 11:11 | <@Tarinaky> | Argh. |
| 11:13 | <@TheWatcher> | So much hate for that |
| 11:13 | <@Tarinaky> | Also: I'm not sure if the first panel of today's dilbert is supposed to make sense. |
| 11:13 | <@Tarinaky> | What do bitcoins have to do with Libor? |
| 11:14 | <@Tarinaky> | Libor is the rate at which banks trade Gold with each other isn't it? |
| 11:14 | <@Tarinaky> | Or have I just rammed two other things together. |
| 11:16 | <@TheWatcher> | You're right; libor is the london interbank offered rate |
| 11:17 | <@TheWatcher> | But I think the point of the first panel is that Wally is deliberately coming out with finance-babble to make it sound complicated and put the PHB off talking |
| 11:18 | <@Tarinaky> | libor involves gold though right? |
| 11:18 | <@Tarinaky> | Okay, just checking I'm not missing something. |
| 11:21 | <@TheWatcher> | It's the average interest rate that a bank would be charged if it borrowed from another bank. |
| 11:21 | <@Tarinaky> | Ah, okay. |
| 11:30 | <@Tarinaky> | http://www.st.ewi.tudelft.nl/~mbeller/publications/2015_beller_zaidman_karpov_th e_last_line_effect_preprint.pdf |
| 11:32 | <@Shiz> | of course zaidman would write about that |
| 11:32 | <@gnolam> | <Tarinaky> I really hate it when I miss calls from withheld numbers. |
| 11:32 | <@gnolam> | That's why you ignore all withheld numbers. |
| 11:33 | <@Tarinaky> | gnolam: I don't have that option. |
| 11:33 | <@Tarinaky> | Because medical establishments use withheld numbers. |
| 11:33 | <@Tarinaky> | And I am desperately waiting a referral to an oversubscribed specialist. |
| 11:33 | <@Tarinaky> | So, yeah. |
| 11:47 | <@TheWatcher> | I have never got the withheld number thing |
| 11:48 | <@Tarinaky> | It's because confidentiality, so the partners of battered women don't know they've seen a doctor. |
| 11:48 | <@TheWatcher> | If they're worried about people calling an internal line, they should use a fucking PBX that sends out the reception number |
| 11:48 | <@Tarinaky> | Or similar. |
| 11:48 | | * TheWatcher blink |
| 11:48 | <@Tarinaky> | Or similar stuff. |
| 11:49 | <@Tarinaky> | Basically because the reception's number as a missed call would give you the knowledge that someone had seen a doctor. |
| 11:49 | <@Tarinaky> | Or sought medical advice. |
| 11:49 | <@TheWatcher> | Because calls from a withheld number aren't going to be suspicious at all |
| 11:49 | <@Tarinaky> | Well. |
| 12:22 | <@Tamber> | At least those could be handwaved as "More phone spam" |
| 12:40 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 38 nicks [23 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 15 normal] |
| 12:41 | | * TheWatcher sighs vaguely, bolts another feature onto CODICIL WINTER HILL |
| 12:41 | <@TheWatcher> | At least this time it's only another two tables and maybe another 1000 lines of code or so... |
| 12:44 | <@gnolam> | I assume all withheld numbers are telemarketers and refuse to answer. :P |
| 13:02 | <@Tarinaky> | I only have a mobile phone, so I don't, generally, get too much telemarketting |
| 13:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Because it costs more to call me. |
| 13:04 | < abudhabi> | gnolam: Strange. The only withheld number I recall was from MS tech support. Telemarketers over here seem to have visible numbers. |
| 13:28 | | Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Orth, abudhabi, @Shiz, @Reiv, @Attilla, grindhold, @Xires, @Derakon[AFK], @froztbyte, VirusJTG, (+21 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) |
| 13:28 | | Netsplit over, joins: &Orth, @PinkFreud, VirusJTG, &jerith, &ToxicFrog, &jeroud, @Tamber, &Derakon[AFK], @Red_Queen, Syka (+21 more) |
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| 18:50 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 18:50 | < Turaiel> | McMartin, you around? |
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| 19:22 | <@gnolam> | abudhabi: MS tech support or "MS tech support"? |
| 19:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | Turaiel: is this another C++ question? |
| 19:24 | < Turaiel> | It was, but it looks like I solved it |
| 19:25 | < abudhabi> | gnolam: Legit. |
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| 19:42 | | mode/#code [+o Vash] by ChanServ |
| 20:55 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
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| 21:44 | < abudhabi> | Is Xfce good? |
| 21:45 | <&McMartin> | I used to use it as my low-power desktop environment, but lately I've used LXDE for that instead. |
| 21:46 | < abudhabi> | Well, I definitely want something that runs well on a relatively slow machine. |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | I've heard dark rumors that XFCE has been accreting Stuff |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | I would give XFCE and LXDE both a shot. |
| 21:47 | < abudhabi> | This... box... has 4GB RAM and four cores, but those four cores are like 1GHz each. |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | So, uh |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | You'll be fine with anything |
| 21:48 | <&McMartin> | The machine I'm typing on here has a single 1GHz core an 1GB of RAM and it can run GNOME 3 without flinching. |
| 21:48 | < abudhabi> | I'm running Cinnamon now, but it's a little bit laggy. |
| 21:48 | <&McMartin> | kk |
| 21:48 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, give both XFCE and LXDE a shot. |
| 21:49 | < abudhabi> | Definitely not the kind of performance I get on a desktop. |
| 21:49 | <&McMartin> | LXDE looks more like Cinnamon than XFCE does, if that makes any difference. |
| 21:49 | < abudhabi> | Which looks more like Windows? :P |
| 21:49 | <&McMartin> | LXDE. |
| 21:50 | <&McMartin> | Both have screenshots up on their wiki pages~ |
| 21:51 | < abudhabi> | I'm currently over my bandwidth cap. Loading images is a pain. |
| 21:51 | < abudhabi> | I'm considering doubling the cost of my internets to quadruple the allotment. |
| 21:53 | < abudhabi> | But I'll see about that after my next apartment move. There might be better wifi there or something. |
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| 22:16 | | * TheWatcher pushes out a new version of AEON HAND MAN, mutters about feature requests |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | AEON HAND MAN is not up to the standard of CODICIL WINTER HILL |
| 22:26 | <@TheWatcher> | I'd think up a better codename, but I am le tired. |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | Indeed |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | (POSTNAP MISSILE LAUNCH presumably too on-the-nose) |
| 22:27 | <@TheWatcher> | (Alas so) |
| 22:31 | <@TheWatcher> | That said, shameless pimping in case anyone runs mediawiki and may find it useful: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:InteractiveTimeline |
| 22:36 | | * McMartin learns a thing from the footnote. |
| 22:41 | | Vornicus [vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 22:41 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 22:44 | <@TheWatcher> | (Javascript date stuff is made of hate and spiders) |
| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | That looks like "failed to implement a wacky quirk in an ISO standard I'd never heard of" |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | the quirk, that is. I've heard of the standard. |
| 22:45 | <@gnolam> | Er |
| 22:45 | <@gnolam> | That's totally standard. |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | 2400? |
| 22:45 | <@gnolam> | Yes. |
| 22:45 | < abudhabi> | LXDE is fast! |
| 22:45 | <~Vornicus> | ??? |
| 22:45 | <~Vornicus> | for js date I recommend moment.js |
| 22:45 | < abudhabi> | But how do I set the keyboard layout? |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | I've always seen people pointedly pick 2359 precisely to duck this |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | abudhabi: Apparently there's a layout switch plugin you can install or something, but a quick google is all about hacking xorg.conf |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | I haven't had to use setxkbmap since, uh, Fedora Core 3 though |
| 22:50 | <&McMartin> | Good to hear that LXDE is zippy compared to the alternatives though |
| 22:51 | | * McMartin is thinking about getting a new tiny computer to replace this ancient monstrosity, and LXDE was on the shortlist for Distro To Put On It |
| 22:52 | < abudhabi> | WTF. Terminal fired from the launch bar doesn't accept input. |
| 22:53 | <&McMartin> | Is focus following mouse? |
| 22:53 | < abudhabi> | What? |
| 22:53 | <@Tamber> | Move the mouse pointer to the window, and see if it works then? |
| 22:54 | <@TheWatcher> | Vornicus: somewhat overkill in the situation - if the browser writers actually made Date.parse() do its fucking job properly, there'd be no issue. |
| 22:54 | <&McMartin> | Speaking of Linux stuff, a side question: if I were to install Debian into a VM, which version of it should I be getting? |
| 22:55 | < abudhabi> | Found the issue: there is terminal and lxterminal. |
| 22:55 | < abudhabi> | The latter works. |
| 22:55 | <&McMartin> | ...huh |
| 22:55 | <&McMartin> | That implies LXDE is doing some truly horrifying things with its launch bar |
| 22:59 | < abudhabi> | Impressions os far: LXDE is fast but awful on user friendliness. |
| 23:00 | < abudhabi> | I still haven't been able to set the layout. |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | Bleh |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | My impressions of Xfce are far enough out of date that I'm not confident in them, either. -_- |
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| --- Log closed Thu Mar 26 00:00:01 2015 |
