| --- Log opened Wed Mar 04 00:00:12 2015 |
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| 12:09 | <@Wizard> | http://www.allenpike.com/2015/javascript-framework-fatigue/ |
| 12:14 | <@TheWatcher> | "While Iâve long argued that creating your own JavaScript framework out of a microframework and a DOM library is madness, maybe itâs the least bad option. " - and that's why there's so many different javascript frameworks~ |
| 12:15 | <@Wizard> | I maintain a project with a bespoke JS framework |
| 12:16 | <@Wizard> | It's not the worst idea either |
| 12:16 | <@Wizard> | If you have the resources |
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| 13:09 | < RchrdB> | argh PEP 0476 |
| 13:09 | < RchrdB> | isn't fixed in any stable releases on Python-2.7.x |
| 13:09 | | * RchrdB raaaage |
| 13:12 | | * TheWatcher patpat |
| 13:13 | < RchrdB> | It's funny because https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0476/#rationale |
| 13:13 | < RchrdB> | Most applications written in Python which use HTTPS can be MITM'd anyway. |
| 13:19 | | * TheWatcher eyes that |
| 13:19 | <@TheWatcher> | ouch |
| 13:19 | <@TheWatcher> | That's pretty damned scary |
| 13:20 | | * VirusJTG sighs, goes off to build MITM rules for the IDS/IPS |
| 13:20 | < VirusJTG> | Thanks RchrdB |
| 13:24 | | * TheWatcher headdesks at this code |
| 13:24 | <@TheWatcher> | This should be impossible, why is this doing this?! |
| 13:33 | | * TheWatcher eyes this, facepalm |
| 13:36 | < RchrdB> | VirusJTG: uh |
| 13:37 | < RchrdB> | VirusJTG: word to the wise: Python isn't actually unusual in this. *Most* SSL/TLS client libraries ship with broken defaults like this. Be wary. |
| 13:37 | < RchrdB> | e.g. Java's JSSE is famously broken as shit. |
| 13:43 | < VirusJTG> | I.E. make the rule as general as possible |
| 13:43 | | * VirusJTG nods |
| 13:43 | < VirusJTG> | my usual SOP if the threat exists in one type of SSL/TSL it usualy exists in others as well. |
| 13:48 | | * VirusJTG copnsiders paranioa a job skill for a sysadmin, is very..... /skilled/ in this area. |
| 14:22 | < abudhabi> | Anyone here use select2? |
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| 14:33 | <@Shiz> | that's why you should always use requests for pthon |
| 14:33 | <@Shiz> | :) |
| 14:57 | < Tarinaky_> | VirusJTG: Paranoia is, by definition, a maladaption. |
| 14:57 | < Tarinaky_> | If it's not a maladaption then it's just vigilence. |
| 15:09 | <@iospace> | so I have to go through this mess of code. someone please send me something to deal (and sadly, alcohol isn't an option) |
| 15:14 | < VirusJTG> | then consider me very vigilent |
| 15:15 | < VirusJTG> | they are out to get me, I have the log files to prove it! |
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| 15:54 | < RchrdB> | The same level of vigilance that would be appropriate for a sysadmin on whom the NSA want to spy would be excessive for a person living in society, occasionally hugging strangers. |
| 15:54 | < RchrdB> | It's possible to be simultaneously paranoid, vigilant and lax in different contexts, all at the same level of vigilance. >_> |
| 15:55 | < Tarinaky_> | And just a set of behavior is a pathology in one individual doesn't mean that the same or similar expression of behavior in another individual is. |
| 15:55 | < Tarinaky_> | *just because |
| 15:56 | < Tarinaky_> | If you take a sysadmin on whom the NSA would like to spy, lay him off, magically take away all of that pressure... |
| 15:56 | < Tarinaky_> | He isn't going to automatically turn into a crazy hobo |
| 15:56 | < Tarinaky_> | Because he isn't paranoid. His behavior was a rational response to external stimulus - the removal of which removes the responses. |
| 16:05 | < Tarinaky_> | Herein ends the rant. |
| 16:06 | < RchrdB> | Good, good. |
| 16:06 | < RchrdB> | Another tack: |
| 16:06 | < RchrdB> | Some people like thinking of themselves as paranoid because they know their current behaviour would be excessively-vigilant in other contexts~ |
| 16:19 | < Tarinaky_> | Yeah okay, I'm a dick. Sorry. |
| 16:19 | < RchrdB> | No you're not. |
| 16:20 | < RchrdB> | Tarinaky_: nothing to apologise for. ^^ |
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| 18:43 | <&McMartin> | http://bitquabit.com/post/unorthodocs-abandon-your-dvcs-and-return-to-sanity/ |
| 18:43 | <&McMartin> | Entertaining because (a) raging iconoclasm is fun |
| 18:44 | <&McMartin> | And as an aside, since my experience with git annex is that it is literally worse than having your makefile do an svn checkout/update in a .gitignored subdirectory, I'd love to hear if there are any credible alternatives. |
| 18:44 | <&McMartin> | I guess (b) is "it serves my channel interrogation goals" |
| 19:12 | <@gnolam> | "directories (which Git, in what I assume is a nod to ecoterrorists, calls trees)" |
| 19:12 | <@gnolam> | *snerk* |
| 19:13 | <&McMartin> | My favorite line is near the top, really. |
| 19:13 | <&McMartin> | "And mind you, we insist theyâre best practices; theyâre not workarounds, oh no, theyâre what you should have been doing since the beginning." |
| 19:14 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: git-annex strikes me as being a terrible thing made of terrible |
| 19:14 | <&McMartin> | Yes, yes it is. |
| 19:14 | | * gnolam laughs out loud at the "Watch it get ignored" bit. |
| 19:14 | <@froztbyte> | but I say that as "it's looked so bad that I didn't even try to use it" |
| 19:14 | <&McMartin> | My experience with git annex is that saying it solves anything is being way too generous, and if anyone in your entire development group ever currently or in the future will use Windows, git annex is strictly worse than having your makefile do an svn checkout/update into a directory that you didn't mask with .gitignore and then sternly ordering your users to never commit -a |
| 19:14 | <@froztbyte> | so |
| 19:14 | <@froztbyte> | there's at least that |
| 19:15 | <&McMartin> | Right. I have yet to hear credible alternatives for "uh, our current centralized VCS includse our vendor/prebuilt stuff and we'd like to seamlessly have access to that" |
| 19:15 | <@froztbyte> | `commit -a` is just inviting people to learn how filter works |
| 19:15 | <&McMartin> | Which this article calls the blob problem |
| 19:15 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: I'll tell you soon |
| 19:15 | <@froztbyte> | it's a windmill I'm tilting at shortly |
| 19:19 | <&McMartin> | As in "wrt this article" or as in "wrt my RL challenges"? |
| 19:19 | <@froztbyte> | the latter, a definite; the former, dunno |
| 19:19 | <@froztbyte> | I don't have energy to read that atm |
| 19:20 | <&McMartin> | It's just a snarky rant, mostly |
| 19:21 | <&McMartin> | But yeah, this is an issue that has actually defeated me in the past so if you find good results, I am super-interested in hearing about them. |
| 19:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | This conversation is actually the first bad I've heard about git-annex; I've never used it but I see it recommended a great deal for dealing with large binaries |
| 19:23 | <&McMartin> | It is mind-blowingly awful. |
| 19:23 | <&McMartin> | Particularly if, as noted, anyone anywhere in your dev team is using Windows. |
| 19:23 | <&McMartin> | (git annex relies on some very precise features of POSIX symlinks that NTFS junctions apparently do not share) |
| 19:23 | <&McMartin> | (So it just shits all over your .git repository in ways that can both corrupt it and be pushed back to other repositories unless the user does everything just so, starting with throwing the option marked DO NOT DO THIS EVER) |
| 19:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | I suspect most of the people I see recommending it don't use windows~ |
| 19:24 | <&McMartin> | And also never collaborate with anyone who does |
| 19:24 | <&McMartin> | (So yeah, maintaining your large binaries with rsync or svn and having the build process keep that up-to-date is seriously the best practice I have so far) |
| 19:25 | <&McMartin> | (I hear rumors of companies that distribute USB drives with all of prebuilt/vendor for all versions of the software and having the build require mounting it at a known location) |
| 19:25 | <&McMartin> | (I guess that works too but I'd prefer rsync, myself) |
| 19:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | The last place I worked at kept large binaries in version control, but version control was Perforce with some people using a git frontend. |
| 19:28 | <&McMartin> | Yep |
| 19:29 | <&McMartin> | Perforce being another CVCS, so it should slot into that workflow above just fine too |
| 19:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | (come to think of it, that's pretty much how it works here too, except the perforce has been augmented) |
| 19:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | (and so has the git) |
| 19:33 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: you may call me mad, but I believe that Bittorrent Sync may, in fact, prove worthy glue |
| 19:34 | <@froztbyte> | a couple of years ago, in the age of dealing with private DC++ servers, I came to seriously hate how bad the clients were (with continual rehashing when network shares wig out, etc) |
| 19:34 | <@froztbyte> | and I thought that something like torrents (for transfer, cherrypicking), with dynamic torrent creation (like, uh, Sync), would've been pretty cool |
| 19:35 | <@froztbyte> | on that note |
| 19:35 | | * froztbyte disappears |
| 19:38 | <&McMartin> | Not mad on its face. Usage patterns would need to be worked through to be sure you were gaining the advantages of both instead of (or at least in addition to) the disadvantages of both centralized and decentralized systems. |
| 19:41 | <&McMartin> | But you've got a decentralized aspect (the dudes with the data) and a centralized aspect (the tracker, or whatever coordinates the DTS) |
| 20:21 | <@Shiz> | the article left me unimpressed |
| 20:22 | <@Shiz> | especially the 'whole repo history can get so large' reeks of a person who has enver heard of git clone --depth |
| 20:23 | <@Shiz> | and suggesting that submodules are a workaround for this is insanity in itself |
| 20:23 | <@Shiz> | submodules were created for people who want to split up their repos sanely, not because people HAVE to split up their repos |
| 20:25 | <@Shiz> | the whole 'waaah i have to follow decent contribution practices now' part is also unimpressive |
| 20:26 | <@Shiz> | the blob shit of course has a point but it's at all nothing new |
| 20:28 | <&jerith> | Shiz: I find hg almost unusable on even medium-large repos. |
| 20:28 | <@Shiz> | me too |
| 20:28 | <@Shiz> | but that's because hg is slow as balls and written in python |
| 20:28 | <@Shiz> | gi ton the other hand works great for me on even large repos |
| 20:56 | < [R]> | "I want a god-repository!" |
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| 21:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | I've found that git becomes pretty slow for anything that walks the object set (clone, gc, etc) once you exceed a few GB, and becomes impossible to clone or gc at ~100GB or so |
| 21:05 | < [R]> | I've git init'd and git cloned a 113GP repo. |
| 21:05 | < [R]> | But those were the only two operations that repo ever got. |
| 21:06 | < [R]> | It wasn't fast, but it did succeed. |
| 21:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | My local clones at work tend to start out around 1-2GB and grow to 20-30GB over their lifetime. |
| 21:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | Although I have one 70GB one, wtf |
| 21:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | My bupdir at home is 270GB and OOMs both clone and gc, but maybe if I had more than 4GB of memory in that server it would succeed. |
| 21:07 | <@Shiz> | i'm frightened what you store in those repos |
| 21:08 | <@Shiz> | my largest repo with a ton of binary files that changed over the years is ~2gb |
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| 21:09 | < [R]> | The 113 was just old crap that we didn't know if it was active still or not, due to fucked up company history. |
| 21:09 | < [R]> | Idea was to carry it around and prune it as needed. |
| 21:10 | < [R]> | But I got canned before that... |
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| 21:19 | <&McMartin> | 12:19 <@Shiz> the blob shit of course has a point but it's at all nothing new |
| 21:19 | <&McMartin> | The fact that it still isn't solved doesn't mean it hasn't gone away |
| 21:19 | <@Shiz> | sure, but the umpth post about it isn't helping anything either |
| 21:19 | <&McMartin> | Er, doesn't mean it has |
| 21:19 | <@Shiz> | nobody's gonna deny git or maybe dvcs in general has issues with blobs |
| 21:20 | <@Shiz> | so why is it even in that post |
| 21:20 | <&McMartin> | They totally are |
| 21:20 | <&McMartin> | "Disk space is cheap, stop whining" |
| 21:20 | | * McMartin has gotten that twice |
| 21:20 | <@Shiz> | a friend recommended plastic to me |
| 21:20 | <&McMartin> | Also "so don't collaborate with windows developers" after pointing out git annex is useless |
| 21:20 | <&McMartin> | Plastic is a new one to me. Link? |
| 21:20 | <@Shiz> | it's a proprietary DVCS that apparently can handle blobs well |
| 21:20 | <&McMartin> | Oh |
| 21:20 | <@Shiz> | https://www.plasticscm.com/ |
| 21:21 | | * McMartin nods |
| 21:21 | <&McMartin> | Targeting game devs. Makes sense. They'd be hit the absolute hardest by blob concerns. |
| 21:22 | <&McMartin> | (And if you actually didn't follow the argument, it's in the post because "this behavior is a step down not merely from Subversion but from fucking CVS, dudes, you should not be bragging here") |
| 21:28 | < Tarinaky_> | I'm not sure a DCVS that can handle blobs well is worth paying for vs the numerous hacks out there that exist already though... |
| 21:28 | < Tarinaky_> | I thought this was a problem with a just-good-enough solution. |
| 21:28 | <&McMartin> | If there is, I haven't heard of it under the constraints I operate under, and would really like to hear what those are. |
| 21:29 | < Tarinaky_> | That solution being to use an SVN repo to manage our binary assets with some sort of wrapper around it to embed it in your git. |
| 21:29 | < Tarinaky_> | I've forgotten the name of the wrapper now. |
| 21:29 | < Tarinaky_> | *your |
| 21:30 | < Tarinaky_> | Ah, annex |
| 21:30 | | * Tarinaky_ reads up, does git annex not run on Windows? |
| 21:30 | < Tarinaky_> | I thought you could hammer it into doing that :/ |
| 21:32 | <&McMartin> | It "run"s |
| 21:33 | <&McMartin> | But it runs in the mode where it downloads everything three times and you can accidentally check in and push it all |
| 21:33 | <&McMartin> | viz. the one that uses copies instead of symlinks |
| 21:33 | <&McMartin> | aka. the option marked NEVER TOUCH THIS SWITCH |
| 21:33 | < Tarinaky_> | I defer to your wounds^WExperience |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | Well |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | I avoided the wounds |
| 21:34 | < Tarinaky_> | Just use SVN then |
| 21:34 | < Tarinaky_> | +? |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | We do, yeah |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | We'd *like* to migrate to git, given our team's preferences |
| 21:35 | <&McMartin> | But I'm leaning towards "it's gonna be a mix, like I outlined above" |
| 21:35 | <&McMartin> | viz. git's makefiles know how to checkout prebuilt and vendor and set them up, and the build process can do it, and multiple branches can share a single checkout |
| 21:35 | < Tarinaky_> | As much as git is good... Sometimes you just don't need a hammer. |
| 21:35 | <&McMartin> | Quite |
| 21:36 | <&McMartin> | But if it turns out that my knowledge of hammers is incomplete - which is likely - I am open to hearing about hammer-related technology. |
| 21:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | Shiz: the bupdir is a backup set that uses git as the backend storage format; it's not generally meant to be manipulated with normal git tools, but you can do so if necessary. |
| 21:36 | <&McMartin> | Tarinaky: also, "sometimes you don't need *just* a hammer." |
| 21:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | Shiz: the work dir holds, generally, a subset of the history of the entire Google ad serving stack |
| 21:36 | < Tarinaky_> | I just don't think it's worth paying for a hammer that handle screws when there's a good enough screwdriver. |
| 21:36 | < Tarinaky_> | re: pastic |
| 21:36 | <@Shiz> | doesn't google use git-p5? |
| 21:36 | < Tarinaky_> | *plastic |
| 21:36 | <@Shiz> | err, git5 |
| 21:37 | <&McMartin> | SVN's handling of branching is as of 1.6 barely good enough to handle the workflows we want, but the team is clearly constrained by this |
| 21:37 | <@Shiz> | Tarinaky_: the point being made is that said screwdriver breaks when you try to operate it with your left hand |
| 21:37 | < Tarinaky_> | Shiz: They split up their modules into their own trees with a tool called 'repo' to manage the bulk clone operations and stuff. |
| 21:37 | <&McMartin> | We've experimented with git-fronting-for-svn and while it can be made to work we weren't super-happy with it and most of us went back to SVN directly as less inconvenient. |
| 21:37 | <@Shiz> | i thought repo was mostly for google's publicized tools |
| 21:37 | <&McMartin> | Once the next dev cycle begins I hope to kick off a 'hey, let's do it better this time' |
| 21:38 | < Tarinaky_> | I thi9nk it's used internally too. |
| 21:38 | < Tarinaky_> | It would be a little silly if it wasn't dog canned in this day and age. |
| 21:38 | < Tarinaky_> | *dogfooding |
| 21:38 | < Tarinaky_> | I never use that expression so appologies for mixing my metaphors. |
| 21:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | Shiz: yes, but git5 creates a local git repo, it just uses the CVCS server as a backend rather than a git remote |
| 21:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky_: repo is a Chrome thing, I think, or possibly an android thing, or both. I've never used it. |
| 21:45 | <@Shiz> | both iirc |
| 21:46 | < Tarinaky_> | It's to solve the problem of storing each module of a larger software solution in its own git tree... |
| 21:46 | < Tarinaky_> | Which is itself a best practice to optimise git usage on larger repos |
| 21:47 | < Tarinaky_> | I think Google use it on both chrome and Android. |
| 21:47 | < Tarinaky_> | I've only experienced it with Android though. |
| 21:47 | < Tarinaky_> | When I was trying to figure out that the crosscompiler was called the NDK |
| 21:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | I only work on internal backend stuff, so. |
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| --- Log closed Thu Mar 05 00:00:28 2015 |