| --- Log opened Sun Dec 22 00:00:55 2013 |
| 00:18 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-h9d.ufa.184.203.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 00:50 | | * gnolam libreofficeheaddesks. |
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| 01:09 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
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| 02:15 | <@Tarinaky> | The thought occurs that a skilled dentist could probably gain a great deal of insight into how I grind my teeth while typing a password. |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | "The Scheme Steering Committee calls [Scheme] 'the world's most unportable programming language'" |
| 02:30 | <@Tarinaky> | You know the statement: "Good code needs no comments"; I am trying to work out whether the inverse is either true, profound or interesting. |
| 02:30 | <@Tarinaky> | "Code that needed no comments is good code." |
| 02:30 | <~Vornicus> | The original statement is false. |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | As Vorn says. |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | The converse, however, which is the second statement, is true. |
| 02:31 | <@Tarinaky> | I didn't evaluate the truth of the first statement. |
| 02:31 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: It isn't always true. The most legible form of the code may not be the most efficient in time/memory :p |
| 02:32 | <@Tarinaky> | *the second isn't always |
| 02:32 | <@Tarinaky> | So you have to narrow it down to good just being a measure of 'code smell'... |
| 02:32 | <@Tarinaky> | At which point it pretty much just becomes tautological I think. |
| 02:33 | <@Tarinaky> | Code that is easily legible... is easily legible. |
| 02:33 | <&McMartin> | You're defining "good" in a way such that "clever" isn't a swear word. |
| 02:34 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: So un-smelliness basically? |
| 02:34 | <@Tarinaky> | Legible code is legible :/ |
| 02:35 | <&McMartin> | The statement "Code that needed no comments is good code" is in a real sense defining 'good' |
| 02:35 | <@Tarinaky> | As has been decreed by the Redundant Department for Redundant Departmental Redundancies Department - or RFfRDRD Redundancies Department. |
| 02:35 | <&McMartin> | You can argue with the definition, but your argument here is basically "legible code might be insufficient for the task at hand" |
| 02:35 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: Yes, but it's not very proound or interesting. |
| 02:36 | <@Tarinaky> | Also: my 'f' key is broken, you might have noticed. |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | Someone who agrees with "Code that needs no comments is good" would probably readily accept "some problems can only be solved with bad/ugly code" |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | Also, implementation language varies a lot. |
| 02:37 | <&McMartin> | Er, makes this vary a lot. |
| 02:37 | <&McMartin> | The further the actual code is from the design, the more comments are necessary (to express the design). |
| 02:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Going back to the statement "Good code needs no comments" I already attacked that by pointing out that odds are you don't have good code. |
| 02:41 | <@Tarinaky> | And that good programmers cost more than a large but finite number of monkeys with typewriters. |
| 02:42 | <@Tarinaky> | But if you don't want to clean the thrown poop from the walls Interns and graduates are less likely to throw their faeces at each other. |
| 02:43 | <@Tarinaky> | No promises about them throwing said-same at you though. |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | Sure |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | This really boils down to "stuff should have descriptive names that actually mean things; algorithms should be a simple and obviously correct as you can get away with" |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | That's a matter of design discipline |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | You can't always get away with it |
| 02:45 | <@Tarinaky> | But you still need good comments :p |
| 02:47 | <&McMartin> | I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse or if I'm not presenting the point properly |
| 02:47 | <&McMartin> | Let's try this: "The names of identifiers are part of the comments. In the best case this is all you actually need" |
| 02:48 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh, my point is you should have comments anyway. |
| 02:48 | <~Vornicus> | there are of course many types of comments. |
| 02:49 | <~Vornicus> | There are doc comments -- ones that, ideally, get transformed into reference documentation in a nicer form. |
| 02:49 | <&McMartin> | I'd like to exclude doc comments from this discussion; that is documenting the code, not commenting it, even if it's lexically a comment. |
| 02:50 | <&McMartin> | Also, I don't want to have to hairsplit between doc comments and doc strings. |
| 02:50 | <@Tarinaky> | Hmm... I... Am not sure I'm willing to permit that exclusion. |
| 02:50 | <@Tarinaky> | I've never really gotten the hang of doing any other kind of comment. |
| 02:51 | <~Vornicus> | The lack of those means your code is terrible~ |
| 02:51 | <&McMartin> | It may be worth noting then that aphorisms about not commenting generally predate doc comment technologies. |
| 02:51 | <&McMartin> | So in that case, I *am* not being clear. |
| 02:52 | <&McMartin> | "If your code is complex enough that you need to put interstitial comments just so someone reading the function isn't hopelessly lost, your code is not good." |
| 02:52 | <&McMartin> | That is the version of the first one |
| 02:52 | <&McMartin> | And it's false, occasionally, due to necessity. |
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| 02:54 | <&McMartin> | Sometimes there *really are* 14 significant cases, and it isn't appropriate to make each one its own function, etc. |
| 02:55 | <~Vornicus> | I've recently found that including interstitial comments actually makes me write better code... |
| 02:55 | <~Vornicus> | (even after the interstitials are removed) |
| 02:56 | <&McMartin> | I'm slowly developing a theory that adhering to *any discipline whatsoever* improves the code even when that discipline is alien to the language you're using. |
| 02:57 | <@Tarinaky> | My discipline atm is to try to force myself to start writing code without overanalysing things and worry about making it work later. |
| 02:58 | <@Tarinaky> | Because I am attrocious at actually getting code out. |
| 02:58 | <&McMartin> | I generally suggest the priorities "make it run", "make it right", "make it fast" |
| 03:00 | <@Tarinaky> | Yeah. |
| 03:00 | <~Vornicus> | and "make it fast" can be put off forever in a great many situations |
| 03:00 | <@Tarinaky> | Red-Green-Refactor etc... |
| 03:01 | <&McMartin> | Actually |
| 03:01 | <&McMartin> | "Make it run", "make it right", "make it clear", "make it fast" |
| 03:13 | <@celticminstrel> | I think what you're calling "interstitial comments" is something that can help figure out just how the task needs to be done. |
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| 03:14 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: Oh, that's true. |
| 03:14 | <&McMartin> | You can start with pseudocode in comments and then fill it in with actual code. |
| 03:14 | <&McMartin> | This is when the Lisp hackers get snide and say "those should be basically the same thing and about as verbose", and half the Python hackers will agree |
| 03:14 | <@celticminstrel> | So it can be seen as an aid to writing good code, right? |
| 03:15 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 03:15 | <&McMartin> | Though then - if the pseudo is then clearly redundant - it might be good to wipe them out and instead have a summary up top |
| 03:15 | <@celticminstrel> | Perhaps. |
| 03:17 | < Syka> | ugh mozilla persona |
| 03:17 | < Syka> | ughhhhh |
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| 07:06 | < jeroud> | So, code and comments. |
| 07:07 | < jeroud> | I use docstrings to explain what the code is for and how to use it. |
| 07:08 | < jeroud> | I use interstitial comments to explain tricky bits of implementation or provide landmarks in larger bits of code. |
| 07:16 | < jeroud> | Things like "we frobbotz this without checking whether it's a knurrwibble first because the frobbotzing process will either turn it into one or throw a sensible exception" and "we've done all our validation and initialisation, so we can start remolding the knurrwibble into a form that pleases us better" respectively. |
| 07:17 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out |
| 07:27 | <&McMartin> | I should improve Monocle's documentation, but I'm loath to do so until I know I won't immediately render them all lies |
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| 08:18 | | iospace is now known as io\passedout |
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| 08:54 | <@Alek> | http://www.eightforums.com/general-support/37638-how-i-lost-then-restored-admini strator-privileges.html#post320978 |
| 08:54 | <@Alek> | true story. |
| 08:54 | <@Alek> | any thoughts? |
| 08:56 | | * jerith shrugs. |
| 08:56 | <&jerith> | It's just "a guy did a thing" to me. |
| 08:57 | <&jerith> | But I don't know what BOINC is and I don't run Windows. |
| 08:59 | <@Alek> | it's a project manager that lets you run dozens of different shared-computing projects, a la Seti@HOME |
| 08:59 | <@Alek> | well, there's dozens available, you pick which ones you want to donate processing time to. XD |
| 09:00 | <@Alek> | it wasn't the point of the story, just a reference thrown in to explain why I had a problem. |
| 09:02 | <@Alek> | flesh it out, as it were. |
| 09:02 | <&jerith> | Oh. Are you the guy whi did the thing? |
| 09:02 | <@Alek> | yeah, that's my post. |
| 09:02 | <@Alek> | it literally happened an hour ago. |
| 09:02 | | * Alek points at his connects back then. |
| 09:06 | <@Alek> | ni |
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| 12:50 | | * AnnoDomini applies vacuum cleaner to exhaust port of laptop fan. |
| 12:50 | < AnnoDomini> | It doesn't work to cool it down. |
| 12:51 | < AnnoDomini> | It's about 45 C when idle, with a large fan blowing on it from the outside. |
| 12:59 | < ErikMesoy> | Mine's about 62 C when idle and goes up to at least 85 safely. |
| 12:59 | < ErikMesoy> | Vacuum cleaner helps with mine, but that may be due to higher baseline. |
| 13:02 | < AnnoDomini> | Well, during the vacuuming, temperature was down to 30C. But I don't want to constantly have the vacuum attached to the laptop. |
| 13:03 | < ErikMesoy> | Constantly attach a micro-vacuum (aka "external fan")? :p |
| 13:05 | < AnnoDomini> | Sounds loud. |
| 13:17 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-6i5vf7.sta.comporium.net] has joined #code |
| 13:24 | <@TheWatcher> | AnnoDomini: use a 12" or larger fan~ |
| 13:27 | < AnnoDomini> | I am. |
| 14:41 | <@Tarinaky> | So. Does anyone notice that when you have a minor tech problem, like a projector (seriously, those things never work first time) and you have a Comp Sci lecture with moderately competent people... |
| 14:42 | <@Tarinaky> | You get too many volunteers trying to fix things (too many cooks spoil the broth) and it quickly descends into pantomime. |
| 14:42 | <@Tarinaky> | With one guy under a desk unplugging one end of a cable while someone plugs the other end it. |
| 14:42 | <@Tarinaky> | *in |
| 14:42 | <@Tarinaky> | Or someone turning something on while someone else fiddles with the power-socket. |
| 14:42 | <@Tarinaky> | And everyone else just watching this shouting: "It's behind you!" |
| 14:42 | <@Tarinaky> | (Oh no it isnt!) |
| 14:43 | < ErikMesoy> | Yes. |
| 14:46 | <@Tarinaky> | Even worse, when you start trying to address individuals so they don't all follow your command, causing havoc, and realise too many people are dressed the same. |
| 14:46 | <@Tarinaky> | The one in the t-shirt and jea- Oh. Wait. |
| 15:06 | <@Namegduf> | I've never had that. Mostly the uncomfortable feeling of people knowing the solution and watching them blunder about. |
| 15:43 | | io\passedout is now known as iospace |
| 15:56 | <@Tarinaky> | I recently saw Episode 4 of The Website is Down. Reminded me of something that happened a month or so ago. |
| 15:56 | <@Tarinaky> | The dicking around with a projector pantomime part. |
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| 18:23 | | Thalasleep is now known as Thlaass |
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| 21:11 | < AnnoDomini> | Is there some CLI torrent client for raspbian? |
| 21:13 | <@Azash> | Deluge |
| 21:13 | <@Azash> | ? |
| 21:13 | < Syka> | qbittorrent? |
| 21:14 | < AnnoDomini> | I'm currently looking at transmission-cli. |
| 21:14 | < AnnoDomini> | Since it's reputedly lightweight. |
| 21:16 | < Syka> | transmission is good |
| 21:16 | < Syka> | i uss the gtk version |
| 21:16 | < Syka> | it has a web ui too |
| 21:17 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 21:23 | < AnnoDomini> | OK, I think it's working. |
| 21:24 | | iospace is now known as io\PACKERS |
| 21:26 | < AnnoDomini> | Now to download 60GB worth of Karaoke. |
| 21:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | AnnoDomini: rtorrent is excellent, btw |
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| 21:37 | <&Derakon> | I'll have to remember this. http://thecodelesscode.com/case/66 |
| 21:37 | < AnnoDomini> | Yeah, that one's wonderful. |
| 21:53 | <@Alek> | aka easter egg hunting? |
| 21:55 | <&Derakon> | No, the point was that by adding incongruous stuff to the documentation, the scribe got the monk to actually read said documentation. |
| 21:55 | < AnnoDomini> | I don't think you're enlightened, Alek. |
| 21:59 | < ErikMesoy> | Oh. I thought the point was that he needed to read it again, because usually people do not read the documentation well enough. |
| 22:02 | < AnnoDomini> | His task was to improve readability. He improved it so much that people read it twice. |
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| 22:07 | | * Tarinaky arghs at Windows7. |
| 22:07 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes, I totally want you to connect to the internet using the Wireless card that can barely pick up a signal to the router that drops in and out instead of the fucking ethernet cable to the very expensive net-over-mains widgets I bought. |
| 22:16 | <@Alek> | I'm just saying, easter egg hunting provides a similar function, no? if you tell people there's an easter egg hidden, they'll pay much closer attention, and even look through multiple times. |
| 22:18 | <@Alek> | Taki, Ethernet-through-mains isn't ideal, actually. much higher risk of surge damage, as well as possible noise in the lines. |
| 22:19 | <@Alek> | but if you can't run cable or get a good signal, I guess there's nothing else left. |
| 22:19 | <@Alek> | except maybe ethernet through the phone lines, which can be expensive and slow, but still possible. |
| 22:20 | <@Tarinaky> | Ethernet-through-mains was my only reasonable option. |
| 22:21 | <@Tarinaky> | It's been in place for a year or so now. |
| 22:21 | <@Tarinaky> | It's just when I got back I forgot about it, set up the wireless, remembered the wireless was horrible and the steps I took to correct it... |
| 22:21 | | * Alek patpats Taki. |
| 22:21 | <@Tarinaky> | And now I can't remember how to un-set-up the wireless. |
| 22:22 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 22:22 | <@Tarinaky> | So when I'm not looking it reconnects, trying to be helpful. |
| 22:22 | <@Tarinaky> | And the default values for prioritising connections have never been good. |
| 22:24 | <@Tarinaky> | Anyway, noise in the lines is going to be much smaller than the noise in the air in the residential regions of any developed nation. |
| 22:24 | <@Tarinaky> | What with all of the WiFi networks everyone has. |
| 22:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: open the network control panel, right click the wifi card, disable |
| 22:25 | <@Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: That has a massive problem. |
| 22:26 | <@Tarinaky> | When I go back in ~2 weeks I'll be using the wireless card to connect to a different network. And I won't remember I've disabled the card. |
| 22:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 22:26 | <@Tarinaky> | And I will, consequently, be both inconvenienced and made to look a pillock. |
| 22:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | I've got nothing, then. |
| 22:27 | <@Tarinaky> | I'd rather the hardware 'did the right thing'. |
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| 22:38 | < AnnoDomini> | ToxicFrog: I'm trying to use rtorrent and it feels like I'm trapped in vim again. |
| 22:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | AnnoDomini: it's not very discoverable but it's not actually that complicated. The man page has a complete list of controls. |
| 22:41 | < AnnoDomini> | Can I use Ctrl+Z to make it run in the background? |
| 22:45 | < ErikMesoy> | Tarinaky: IME if you manually disconnect from wireless then connect to cable, it should default to cable in the future. |
| 22:45 | < ErikMesoy> | So at least some computers exist that do the right thing |
| 22:45 | <@Tarinaky> | ErikMesoy: It still connects to the wireless network on boot. |
| 22:46 | < ErikMesoy> | Silly. |
| 22:46 | <@Tarinaky> | This is as bad as when I needed to update my password for the university wireless in Network-Manager. |
| 22:46 | <@Tarinaky> | Read: Using the UI alone? You can't. |
| 22:47 | <@Tarinaky> | Had to go through the man pages to find where its config files were and find the one for eduroam and rm it as root. |
| 22:47 | < AnnoDomini> | Make a reminder in whatever calendar software you use that you disabled your wifi adapter in the CP to fire in two weeks. |
| 22:47 | <@Tarinaky> | This Wireless lark /really/ shouldn't be so fking hard. |
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| --- Log closed Mon Dec 23 00:00:11 2013 |