code logs -> 2013 -> Mon, 16 Dec 2013< code.20131215.log - code.20131217.log >
--- Log opened Mon Dec 16 00:00:20 2013
00:23 himi [fow035@Nightstar-q9amk4.ffp.csiro.au] has joined #code
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00:25
< RichyB>
Maybe put that directly into the topic.
00:26
<~Vornicus>
??
00:26
< RichyB>
"If you would like help, please ask your question right away. People will probably take a few hours to attempt to help you, though. We newbies."
00:28 Reiv changed the topic of #code to: Welcome to #Code! || Don't ask to ask, just ask, then hang about till someone appears who is able to help: We have high latency, but excellent signal. We newbies. || Rants and monologues are encouraged; many cores, no waiting || Pastebin: http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/ (Note antispam question, answer
00:29 Reiv changed the topic of #code to: Welcome to #Code! || Don't ask to ask, just ask, then hang about till someone appears who is able to help: We have high latency, but excellent signal. We newbies. || Rants and monologues are encouraged; many cores, no waiting || Pastebin: http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/ (Antispam question: answer 'yes
00:29
<@Reiv>
... my kingdom for a character
00:30 Reiv changed the topic of #code to: Welcome to #Code! || Ask, then hang about till someone appears who can help: We have high latency, but excellent signal. || We newbies. || Rants and monologues are encouraged; many cores, no waiting || Pastebin: http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/ (Antispam question: answer 'yes'
00:30 Reiv changed the topic of #code to: Welcome to #Code! || Ask, then hang about till someone appears who can help: We have high latency, but excellent signal. || We newbies. || Rants and monologues are encouraged; many cores, no waiting || Pastebin: http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/ (Antispam question: answer 'yes')
00:30
<@Reiv>
Sorry 'bout that, folks.
00:31
<@Reiv>
Webchat was, uh, clumsy~
00:32
<@Reiv>
I wonder how many clients can see the heart. I am inclined to emote it.
00:32
<~Vornicus>
Most can.
00:34
<@Reiv>
Jolly good then
00:34
<@Reiv>
(Also: Apologies to jerith. The depixel thing was pretty boss.)
00:36
<~Vornicus>
(yes it was. I should go back to mine at some point)
00:55 IO\PACKERS is now known as iospace
01:09 * Vornicus rewrites the topic.
01:10 Vornicus changed the topic of #code to: Welcome to #Code! || Ask! LURK LESS! HANG AROUND MOAR! || We newbies. || Rants and monologues are encouraged; many cores, no waiting || Pastebin: http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/ (Antispam question: answer 'yes')
01:13
<@Reiv>
... you what
01:14
<@celticminstrel>
Heh.
01:14
<@celticminstrel>
I dunno though, I like Reiv's better than Vornicus's... >_>
01:15
<@Reiv>
Yeah, mine sounded more like the tone of the channel >_>
01:16
<~Vornicus>
yeah okay.
01:16 Vornicus changed the topic of #code to: Welcome to #Code! || Ask, then hang about till someone appears who can help: We have high latency, but excellent signal. || We newbies. || Rants and monologues are encouraged; many cores, no waiting || Pastebin: http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/ (Antispam question: answer 'yes')
01:26
<@Reiv>
Not that I didn't, uh, get your meaning
01:26
<@Reiv>
But do we want to encourage people talking shit like that
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02:48
< Xepher>
anyone here?
02:49
<~Vornicus>
???
02:49
< Xepher>
how do you give someone else op access im doing what it says and nothing
02:49
<~Vornicus>
What channel?
02:49
< Xepher>
#aldium
02:50
< Xepher>
i'm owner
02:50
<~Vornicus>
I see that.
02:51
<~Vornicus>
PM me the message you're sending?
02:52
< Xepher>
ty
02:54
<~Vornicus>
no problem. For future reference, teh true channel for network help is #nightstar
02:55
< Xepher>
oh sorry
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05:58
<&jerith>
Reiv: I'm glad depixel isn't in the topic anymore, but I didn't have the heart to take it out myself.
05:59
<&jerith>
It's a nifty thing, but it's also been about two years since I worked on it.
06:00 ErikMesoy|sleep is now known as ErikMesoy
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06:07 * McMartin does some 8-bit spritework.
06:10
<&jerith>
McMartin: Please finish Monocle soon. I started working implementing pygame.draw in pygame-cffi yesterday and now I don't ever want to use it again. :-(
06:11
<&McMartin>
Heh
06:12
<&McMartin>
I hope to have it at 1.0 status by, like, maybe June.
06:12
<&McMartin>
I hope to get something *actually usable* by, oh, February.
06:13
<&McMartin>
I still have one actually difficult architecture problem, which is how to permit rooms without, if possible, hardcoding a notion of rooms.
06:13
<&McMartin>
I've yet to see a room abstraction that isn't noticably confining.
06:13
<&McMartin>
I have an idea that objects can be grouped into sets and be bulk inserted/removed into the "active" set, but I'm not sure that's sufficient to be useful.
06:14
<&McMartin>
And it implies capabilities that I'm going to have to implement to get collision working anyway, so.
06:14
<&McMartin>
I'm kinda hoping to get collision (and thus traits and kinds) fully working over the course of the Christmas break.
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06:15
<&jerith>
McMartin: Have you looked at chipmunk?
06:16
<&McMartin>
Once that happens, I stabilize the implementation a bit, document everything I have, and then try to use it for something small, but large enough to be a "real" test.
06:16
<&McMartin>
That should show me the parts I'm clearly missing, or that might do well to be incorporated directly into the Monocle core.
06:16
<&McMartin>
I am unfamiliar with "chipmunk".
06:16
<&McMartin>
And without additional keywords it's not going to help me google, either
06:17
<&jerith>
Also, if there are any necessary but boring bits bits of C that need to be written, let me know. It's not my language of choice, but have successfully written it in the past. :-)
06:17
<&jerith>
It's a physics library. Might be easier to find through "pymunk".
06:18
<&jerith>
http://chipmunk-physics.net/
06:18
<&jerith>
We used pymunk for our last pyweek game.
06:19
<&McMartin>
This looks like a superior version of Box2D
06:20
<&jerith>
Now that I actually read the docs, it's written in C for exactly the same reason Monocle is.
06:20
<&McMartin>
This is a level of dynamics beyond what I'm aiming for.
06:20
<&jerith>
So, two things.
06:21
<&jerith>
First, chipmunk's spaces look like a reasonable physics-level implementation of rooms and we didn't find it too onerous to use.
06:22
<&jerith>
Second, it would be nice if there were an easy way to say "I want to use chipmunk's physics instead of Monocle's" without having to set all the sprites' fields every frame.
06:23
<&McMartin>
The former is pretty close to what I'm imagining, and it's close to how GM:S does it.
06:23
<&McMartin>
The part where things get dodgy - and which I don't yet have a good answer for - is how to handle the issue where objects tend to be locked into a single room.
06:25
<&McMartin>
As for the second one, at *some* point there has to be a marshalling layer that gets the position information into a form that Monocle's renderer can handle
06:26
<&McMartin>
It might ultimately make sense to have a formal plugin API mechanism for that, I dunno.
06:26
<&jerith>
McMartin: I'm thinking of custom physicsers in the same way you have custom renderers.
06:26
<&McMartin>
That's definitely in the "post-1.0 world" though.
06:26
<&McMartin>
Well, yes, but that's pretty easy, because Monocle's custom physics are preposterously simple
06:27
<&McMartin>
I'm not sure you don't get this just by keeping the data you actually *need* in your ancillary data outside of monocle, and then PREPHYSICS is your custom physicser and RENDER is your custom renderer.
06:28
<&jerith>
I was just thinking that the problem is solved merely by opting your objects out of Monocle's physics completely.
06:28
<&McMartin>
Sure
06:28
<&McMartin>
I'm saying "that happens by default; just never assign dx or dy and don't subscribe to any collision events"
06:29
<&jerith>
I suppose things that don't move or collide are cheap enough to simulate already.
06:29
<&jerith>
And you probably still want df applied.
06:29
<&McMartin>
Bear in mind that one of the design requirements is that if you don't subscribe to collision events you don't even get iterated over, so the cost of doing collisions if nobody subscribes to collision events is zero
06:30
<&jerith>
Ah, cool.
06:30
<&McMartin>
I now have a solution that guarantees this.
06:30
<&McMartin>
It does *not* mesh well with my notions of how rooms should work. >_<
06:30
<&McMartin>
But rooms are a less fundamental concept, so they are the ones I'm going to want to force to adapt.
06:31
<&McMartin>
(Frankly, even df is iffy for something like chipmunk, especially if it correctly tracks things like angular momentum)
06:32
<&jerith>
If you want to handle things like spin, you can set df to zero and manually select the frame based on the physics, I suppose.
06:33
<&McMartin>
Or have a custom renderer that ignores f and df and picks a result based on something else.
06:33
<&McMartin>
(This is a very common use case; Dapper Delver itself uses it to select fall vs. jump vs. walking vs. standing and left vs. right)
06:35
<&McMartin>
(In these circumstances, the object's notional sprite is only used to define the hitbox, not the appearance.)
06:35
<&McMartin>
(Mutable hitboxes break things terribly and Monocle will at least at first openly forbid this)
06:36
<&jerith>
Our first platformer taught us a lot about why certain things are really bad ideas.
06:36
<&McMartin>
Was pixel-perfect collisions one of those things~
06:36
<&jerith>
The protagonist is a fox. A beautifully drawn fox with graceful animation. That changes size and shape on every frame.
06:37
<&McMartin>
Dangerous but doable~
06:38
<&McMartin>
But cases like that are in fact why Monocle tracks the hitbox as entirely independent of the image itself (while still bundling those two things up into one abstraction)
06:38
<&jerith>
A little less doable when the platforms have rounded edges.~
06:38
<&McMartin>
Only if the physics engine knows about those~
06:39
<&McMartin>
Anyway, yeah, one of the actual physical book GM8 tutorials is a reconstruction of the old Amiga platformer Zool
06:39
<&McMartin>
Which ran at Sonic speeds with Knytt controls
06:39
<&jerith>
We initially just used rectangular hitboxes for everything, but then you had the fox floating in the air with its chin six feet above the edge of the platform it was "standing" on.
06:40
<&McMartin>
Mmmm. There part of the problem is being a quadruped, I think >_>
06:40
<&jerith>
Yes.
06:40
<&McMartin>
(I suspect this is also why Mega Man has those giant boots)
06:41
<&jerith>
This completely explained why so many platformers have sprites that are close to rectangular. (On the bottom, at least.)
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--- Log closed Mon Dec 16 14:36:30 2013
--- Log opened Mon Dec 16 14:36:39 2013
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16:48
< Azash>
Rrrrh, I can't decide whether to buy CLRS or not
16:48
< Azash>
Does anyone find themselves using it as a reference often enough to warrant it?
16:49
<@celticminstrel>
I think my only reference now for programming stuff is the Internet...
16:56
<@TheWatcher>
I don't think I've ever even looked at CLRS actually.
16:57
<@celticminstrel>
I don't even know what it is, actually.
16:57
<@TheWatcher>
Introduction to Algorithms by Cormen, Leiserson, Rivest, and Stien.
16:57
< Azash>
That
16:58
< Azash>
It's like the lightweight TAOCP, I guess :P
16:58
<@celticminstrel>
Dunno what TAOCP is either. XD
16:58
< Azash>
Knuth's The Art of Computer Programming
16:58
< Syka>
three big fuckin books
16:58
< Syka>
three, right?
16:59
< Azash>
I think there might be more but the three are core
17:00
<@celticminstrel>
Bluh?
17:00
< Azash>
celticminstrel: Basically very thorough and very dry algo/data structure tomes
17:01
< Syka>
celticminstrel: do you know TeX?
17:01
<@celticminstrel>
Nope.
17:01
< Syka>
celticminstrel: TAOCP is the book that Knuth wrote TeX to write
17:01
< Syka>
whaaaat
17:01 * Syka drops some typesetting beautifulness on celticminstrel
17:02
<@celticminstrel>
Ew.
17:02
<&McMartin>
CLRS was my Algo textbook. It's good.
17:02
<&McMartin>
Back when it was still CLR. =)
17:03
<@celticminstrel>
I don't remember what my Algorithms textbook was. It's probably still somewhere around. Unless it was optional.
17:03
<&McMartin>
It covers a slightly different set of algos from TAoCP, so I had to actually dig it out recently
17:03
< Azash>
Syka: 1-3 and 4A
17:04
< Syka>
ahh right
17:06 Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel
17:08
< Azash>
Volume 5 Syntactic Algorithms (as of 2011, estimated for release in 2020) (chapters 9 and 10)
17:08
< Azash>
I don't want to be the array in the mud here, but..
17:11
<@TheWatcher>
?
17:11
<&McMartin>
Knuth is racing The Hardest Deadline of All, yes
17:12
< Syka>
knuth will die in our lifetimes :(
17:12
<@TheWatcher>
You don't think he's worked out how to reprogram the universe to let him live forever?@
17:12
< Syka>
well
17:12
<@TheWatcher>
s/@/~/
17:12
<@celticminstrel>
Heh.
17:12
< Syka>
if I was going to give anyone immortality, I'd think about Knuth, certainly
17:12
< Syka>
(a close second after myself, because, c'mon)
17:13
< Syka>
(the world deserves an immortal syka, as penance for its crimes)
17:14
<@Tamber>
*wince*
17:16
< Syka>
I will live on Tamber's couch
17:16
< Azash>
Where does Torvalds rank?
17:17
< Syka>
Azash: torvalds, probably pretty high
17:17
<@Tamber>
Syka: Now that's just cruel and unusual.
17:17
< Syka>
above stallman, below sean connery being made to do Tom Clancy movies forever
17:19
< ErikMesoy>
Would he be playing next to Rowan Atkinson and Robin Williams?
17:22
< Azash>
Tamber: s/rue/oo/
17:25
<@celticminstrel>
No.
17:26
<@celticminstrel>
Not cool.
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20:19 * McMartin runs some long-running tests, yawns
20:19
<&McMartin>
I should get lunch, but I want to get it into Fully Uninteractive Mode before I do that
20:21
<@Reiv>
I should get Knuth.
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21:16
<&McMartin>
Tee hee.
21:16
<&McMartin>
froztbyte: I suspect your travails with Fedora upgrades were not unique to you
21:16
<&McMartin>
They recently deployed a new distupgrade system
21:16
<&McMartin>
It is called "FedUp"
21:16
<@Tamber>
Hee
21:16
<&McMartin>
I'm sure that's just calle that because it's Fedora Upgrader.
21:16
<@Tamber>
Oh, of course~
21:16
<&jerith>
That's even better than my alias for "sudo yum" when I ran Fedora.
21:17
<&jerith>
("yuck")
21:41 Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz]
21:51
<&McMartin>
Hrm
21:51
<&McMartin>
Anyone here good with Java's standard library?
21:51
<&McMartin>
I'm trying to do a high-speed bulk transfer between two files.
21:51
<&McMartin>
(Basically an on-disk scatter-gather kind of affair)
21:55
<@froztbyte>
McMartin: :D
21:57
<&McMartin>
(fedup was experimental in, I think, F18, and I didn't use it there; I did use it for F19 and it was OK. It should be fine for F20 once I get around to actually doing it, which will probably be in mid-January)
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 17 00:00:36 2013
code logs -> 2013 -> Mon, 16 Dec 2013< code.20131215.log - code.20131217.log >

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