| --- Log opened Sun Nov 24 00:00:33 2013 |
| 00:14 | <@Tarinaky> | Any actual advice? |
| 00:15 | <@Tarinaky> | Aside from become a goat farmer, be rich, or go back in time and convince younger-self to do more work so future me doesn't have to. |
| 00:15 | <&McMartin> | Tamber: I didn't say "web browser", I said "HTTP" |
| 00:15 | < AnnoDomini> | Tarinaky: How about trying to make a better Aurora as part of your thesis? |
| 00:15 | <&McMartin> | If your point is "people make bad decisions in the past and you have to deal with that going forward", then, well, yes |
| 00:16 | <@Tarinaky> | AnnoDomini: There's some interesting pathfinding/kinematics problems I'm looking at that're applicable. |
| 00:17 | <@Tarinaky> | But making a better Aurora is too much work for a Diss :V |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | Dissertations, AIUI, are mainly to prove you can do research, not evidence of a high degree of vocational training. |
| 00:18 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: It's also possible to do a 'dissertation' doing a project for a local company. |
| 00:19 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: The word's actual definition is not important. |
| 00:19 | <@Tarinaky> | Because universities should do more to train workers :V |
| 00:19 | <&McMartin> | I can only speak to the thing I know of and went through by that name without knowing the exact details of what you're asking. =P |
| 00:19 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not asking about my Diss. |
| 00:20 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm asking about jobs. |
| 00:20 | <@Tarinaky> | And what to do about there seemingly being none :/ |
| 00:20 | <&McMartin> | "Know people who founded a company a while ago" is more useful than "be rich"~ |
| 00:20 | <&McMartin> | It's probably also more useful than "work hard" at least at the start -_- |
| 00:20 | <@Tarinaky> | Isn't the best way to do that to be rich? |
| 00:21 | <&McMartin> | I'm pretty sure that one evens out for tech jobs once you hit "comfortable" |
| 00:21 | <@Tarinaky> | Requires more work than just starting rich :V |
| 00:22 | <&McMartin> | If you want to avoid work, you don't want to be in tech =P |
| 00:22 | < AnnoDomini> | Be smart, well-connected, with a good reputation, and preferrably already employed. :P |
| 00:22 | <&McMartin> | If you're starting in a grad school environment, your own research group may be a source of contacts. |
| 00:23 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: Pretty sure it's impossible to actually avoid work. |
| 00:24 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm an undergrad. |
| 00:24 | < AnnoDomini> | Tarinaky: It's perfectly possible to avoid work. You just have to become underclass. |
| 00:24 | < AnnoDomini> | Caveat: You become underclass if you become underclass. |
| 00:24 | <@Tarinaky> | AnnoDomini: This requires a surprising amount of work. |
| 00:24 | <&McMartin> | Undergrad, erm, departmental societies and fraternities often have industrial relations departments, and bulk marketing of resumes |
| 00:25 | < AnnoDomini> | Tarinaky: To watch my underclass acquaintances, not really. |
| 00:26 | <@Tarinaky> | And lets be honest. There's a very real chance I might want cosmetic surgery in the next 5 years which, you know, isn't cheap >.< |
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| 00:27 | <&McMartin> | Tarinaky: When I'm running interviews, I'm generally more interested in "how well do you pick up things you didn't know last week" than 'what areas have you already studied deeply" unless I've been told by the head of engineering "we need an expert in X" |
| 00:27 | <&McMartin> | If the latter, undergrads are hosed. If the former, it's a distressingly even playing field. |
| 00:27 | < AnnoDomini> | Why do you want cosmetic surgery? |
| 00:28 | <@Tarinaky> | AnnoDomini: I have one penis too many. |
| 00:28 | < AnnoDomini> | First bi, then homosexual, now transsexual? |
| 00:29 | <@Tarinaky> | This is... not an unusual progression. :/ |
| 00:29 | < AnnoDomini> | I shudder to think what you'll think of next. |
| 00:29 | <&McMartin> | Re: Undergrad stuff, do you have a subfocus? |
| 00:29 | <&McMartin> | Like, a part of CS you're actually particularly interested in |
| 00:30 | <&McMartin> | Broadly: theory, "systems" (OS and compiler internals), AI, graphics... |
| 00:30 | <&McMartin> | databases, which I think has subconcentrations but I don't know a lot about that subfield |
| 00:31 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: To be honest, not really. I feel comfortable with math-heavy stuff which has put me in a lot of AI modules. |
| 00:31 | <@Tarinaky> | And I'm JH with Math. |
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| 00:32 | <&McMartin> | Done any work with formal automata? |
| 00:32 | <@Tarinaky> | Not unless I know them by a different name. |
| 00:33 | <&McMartin> | "Finite State Machine" and "Turing Machine" are two different kinds of formal automata |
| 00:33 | <&McMartin> | FSMs are the construct that backs regexes |
| 00:33 | <&McMartin> | And tend to show up a lot in Actual Code as things you use, beyond regexes, too |
| 00:33 | <@Tarinaky> | I know what they are/their properties/applications and can write one if motivated. |
| 00:34 | | * McMartin nods |
| 00:34 | <&McMartin> | I was firmly in the "systems" side of things, and there's not a huge amount of overlap. |
| 00:34 | <&McMartin> | What overlap there is between systems and AI is in the theory-of-computation stuff |
| 00:35 | <&McMartin> | "Know how order-of-growth works and what the orders are for operations that are commonly available in modern programming language libraries' and 'know your way around state machines' are the two most important bits of theory, in my book |
| 00:35 | <@Tarinaky> | I like writing code. And I don't know enough to be a specialist in any field. |
| 00:36 | <&McMartin> | If you're junior - and, as an undergrad, you are - being a specialist is actually bad. |
| 00:36 | <@Tarinaky> | None of the modules I've done have any 'vocational' application at my level |
| 00:37 | <@Tarinaky> | AI and Quantum Information THeory would be great if the thought of doing Research didn't make me want to die. |
| 00:37 | <@Tarinaky> | Sorry, research is the wrong word. |
| 00:37 | <@Tarinaky> | But 'staying a student' |
| 00:37 | <@Tarinaky> | Academia |
| 00:38 | <&McMartin> | You say you "like to code". Are you imagining that you'd want to be doing more design work or more maintainance work? |
| 00:38 | <@Tarinaky> | Would it be terrible if I said 'whichever pays better'? |
| 00:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Which I think is the former. |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | THe former pays better because it tends to be a senior position. |
| 00:40 | <&McMartin> | As I generally understand programming career paths |
| 00:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Legacy maintenance is also where programmers go to die. |
| 00:40 | <&McMartin> | In my experience, it's also where you start, though: |
| 00:41 | <&McMartin> | - Fixing bugs in the product |
| 00:41 | <&McMartin> | - Adding new things to the product |
| 00:41 | <@Tarinaky> | The legacy prefix was important |
| 00:41 | <&McMartin> | Then you split off to one of (a) design new products, (b) become a greybeard wizard in a domain the product needs, or (c) start leading project teams |
| 00:42 | <&McMartin> | It's not actually clear to me that you don't ultimately want (b), but (b) is where the proverbial Impossible 5 Years Of Experience comes from. |
| 00:42 | <&McMartin> | Is time spent, first, fixing problems with the product the company has, and then extending it. |
| 00:43 | <@Tarinaky> | That's err... not part of the job adverts though. |
| 00:43 | <@Tarinaky> | I mean, I know that as a newbie they won't trust me with a curly brace lest I hurt myself. |
| 00:43 | <&McMartin> | So, assuming your local industry isn't literally retarded, they are not demanding 5 years of experience for the positions they're advertising at job fairs on campus and such. |
| 00:44 | <@Tarinaky> | On campus they want a 2:1 |
| 00:44 | <@Tarinaky> | Which I'm not going to get. |
| 00:44 | <@Tarinaky> | On job boards they want enthusiasm towards mobile and web dev. |
| 00:44 | <~Vornicus> | 2:1? |
| 00:44 | <&McMartin> | That is not a term I recognize either. |
| 00:44 | <@Tarinaky> | Degree classification |
| 00:45 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't know what the cognate GPA is |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | Can you give a more readily searchable name for that which I can place |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | Or a definition in terms of other things |
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| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | GPA being an average of your class cores, for instance |
| 00:45 | <@Tarinaky> | I would, except chrome is refusing to do anything |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | Is 2:1 a percentile within a graduating class? |
| 00:46 | <@Tarinaky> | Degree Classification is, more or less the same thing, except it's calculated by divination and pagan ritual. |
| 00:46 | <&McMartin> | An extended degree that takes longer and covers more? |
| 00:46 | <@Tarinaky> | It's a percentile, usually. |
| 00:46 | <&McMartin> | That sounds like it's closer to Magna Cum Laude, then. |
| 00:46 | <&McMartin> | Unless the percentile is, like, 67% |
| 00:46 | <@Tarinaky> | They go 1st, 2:1, 2:2 and 3rd |
| 00:47 | <@Tarinaky> | (And, obviously, Ordinary and abject failure) |
| 00:48 | <@Tarinaky> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_undergraduate_degree_classification |
| 00:49 | <&McMartin> | OK, so, the job fairs are looking for people who could go on to grad school, and they'd like to lure them away, and you don't think you make that cut. |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | What, specifically, do you hate about mobile and web dev? |
| 00:50 | < AnnoDomini> | (I think he only said he hates WD, but just doesn't know mobile.) |
| 00:50 | <@Tarinaky> | The*YOU MUST USE IE6 TO READ THIS COMPLAINT* |
| 00:50 | <@Tarinaky> | And I just don't have any opportunity to play with mobile because of the hardware costs. |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | There's more to web dev than writing browser-specific JavaScript. |
| 00:51 | <&McMartin> | Java Servlets seem to underlie a lot of the industrial-scale web applications I've dealt with. |
| 00:52 | < AnnoDomini> | There are mobile emulators out there. I know we've used them in class. |
| 00:52 | < AnnoDomini> | (Not smartphones.) |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | (Wrapped in a dizzying profusion of other things - this is why being a specialist as an undergrad isn't gonna happen and the thing that's most important is being able to sponge up stuff) |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | And yeah, the Android devkits have (slow) simulators. |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | Mobile is easier than desktop. |
| 00:53 | <@Tarinaky> | While this is true, I'm not sure this would allow me to do anything non-trivial. |
| 00:53 | <&McMartin> | Know C, C++, and Java. If you get a chance to pick up Apple's flavor of Objective-C, that's great, but ObjC is butt-simple if you know C++ and Python. |
| 00:54 | <@Tarinaky> | I already know C/C++ and Java. >.< |
| 00:54 | <@Tarinaky> | It... doesn't feel like enough >.< |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | Well, http://developer.android.com/training/index.html is a start. |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | Also, add Python to that list since ObjC's object system is kind of a cross between Java's and Python's. |
| 00:55 | <@Tarinaky> | Already know it. |
| 00:56 | <@Tarinaky> | Python's my golden hammer these days... despite how much it makes me want to complain about it. |
| 00:56 | <&McMartin> | If you don't know why your favored language is awful, you haven't been using it enough. |
| 00:56 | <&McMartin> | No tilde. |
| 00:57 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, I've had pretty good experience with android simulators, though they are about 5x slower than the real thing. |
| 00:58 | <&McMartin> | Still, unless you're writing 3D action games (and you aren't, from what you're telling me) that will be fine for building a little portfolio. |
| 01:00 | < Syka> | speaking of portfolios |
| 01:00 | | * Syka spazzes over every imperfection in hers |
| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 01:00 | < Syka> | god, no wonder I'm calling it quits after a year |
| 01:00 | <@Tarinaky> | Am I just suffering the imposter syndrome? |
| 01:01 | < Syka> | every one of my projects is terrible and rough |
| 01:01 | < Syka> | oh well |
| 01:01 | <@Tarinaky> | That I don't feel I can apply for mobile/web-dev because I think I'm bad at it? |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | Tarinaky: I can't tell without looking at your portfolio~ |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | Well |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | Web-dev you think you *hate* |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | That's different |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | But you don't yet know you hate web backend dev, so that's a thing to keep in mind |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | Mobile you have no opinion on but believe yourself to be untrained. |
| 01:02 | <@Tarinaky> | I also, honestly, care more about whether I hate the commute or where I live... or my boss... |
| 01:02 | <@Tarinaky> | I think they'd have a larger impact on my bile. |
| 01:02 | <&McMartin> | One possibility is to interview at one of them and be open about the fact that you have no mobile experience yet but are open to learning. |
| 01:02 | <&McMartin> | If they say that's not what they're looking for, drill down and ask what they would consider reasonable qualifications for a junior mobile dev |
| 01:03 | <&McMartin> | (You might as well at least have gotten Hello Android running in a simulator before this because that's like a weekend if that) |
| 01:03 | <&McMartin> | Based on their answers you'll have a better idea on where they stand |
| 01:03 | <&McMartin> | And yes, it is absolutely the case that your boss, your co-workers, and your commute are important aspects of jobs, even tech jobs. |
| 01:06 | <&McMartin> | This does assume that they have a phone number you call as opposed to "mail us a resume and maybe we'll get back to you before the heat death of the universe" |
| 01:06 | <&McMartin> | If the latter, find one of these companies that has a phone number *somewhere* and start trying to find someone who can answer your questions. |
| 01:06 | <&McMartin> | This will also let you test how douchey they are |
| 01:13 | <@Tarinaky> | I think the hurtling, inevitable, approach of andromeda is the best metaphore for graduation |
| 01:13 | <&McMartin> | That ended with humanity getting psychic powers strong enough to blow up entire planets and using superluminal other planets from alternate universes as cannonballs |
| 01:14 | <@Tarinaky> | I meant the galaxy |
| 01:14 | <@Tarinaky> | Not the TV show |
| 01:14 | <&McMartin> | Yes, so did I; Lensman reference. |
| 01:14 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh. |
| 01:14 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not big on fiction >.< |
| 01:14 | <&McMartin> | It's pre-WWII space opera, which also means you have to occasionally remind yourself that racism wasn't unfashionable yet |
| 01:15 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh I know. |
| 01:15 | <@Tarinaky> | At some point someone tried to get me to read it in an attempt to convince me (by force if necessary) that 'reading is fun'. |
| 01:15 | <&McMartin> | ... I would not select Lensman for that |
| 01:15 | <&McMartin> | Not even if I were sticking to SF |
| 01:17 | <@Tarinaky> | I wouldn't know, I didn't read it. |
| 01:20 | <&McMartin> | The prose style is dangerously cose to self-parody |
| 01:21 | <&McMartin> | *close |
| 01:21 | <&McMartin> | Beams of lambent energy coruscating as they blast against highly refratory force walls, etc |
| 01:23 | <@Tarinaky> | The number of books I've actually read from start to finish is a depressingly small number. |
| 01:31 | <@Tarinaky> | Lets see... Harry Potter 1 through 4... Dune, The Hobbit, 5 or so Discworld books... |
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| 03:11 | | * Alek patpats Taki. |
| 03:11 | <@Alek> | I pity you so hard. |
| 03:12 | <@Alek> | but yeah, Lensman was pretty much the same quality of writing as the average fanfic today. |
| 03:13 | | * Alek likes the golden age classics - heinlein, asimov, clarke, etc. |
| 03:13 | <@Alek> | those three especially. |
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| 03:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | No love for Niven? |
| 03:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: how you can read only five or so Discworld books? |
| 03:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Er |
| 03:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Unclosed ^B there but you get the idea |
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| 05:20 | <@Alek> | Niven's good too, but he and Pournelle come in at top 10 golden age, but not top 3, for me. |
| 05:20 | <@Alek> | or so. |
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| 06:02 | <&jerith> | Lucifer's Hammer is by far my favourite Niven/Pournelle. |
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| 12:16 | <@Tarinaky> | I thought of another book I've read: THe Moon Is A Harsh Mistress. |
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| 15:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Alek: personally I would rank Niven over Clarke, although Tales from the White Hart is fantastic. |
| 15:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Clarke has a tendency to crawl up his own ass that I don't appreciate in an author. |
| 15:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: good choice. |
| 15:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | Now go read more Discworld and all of the Cherryh |
| 15:23 | <@Tarinaky> | How about no. |
| 15:23 | <@Tarinaky> | I'd rather do something more mindless like play a videogame or watch a TV show to recharge. |
| 15:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | :/ |
| 15:31 | <@Tarinaky> | This is a perfectly valid preference. |
| 15:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | True. |
| 15:43 | <@Tarinaky> | Good, nothing worse than a Fun Nazi :p |
| 15:44 | <@Namegduf> | Your preferences are low status. This is a placeholder line to remind you of this. |
| 15:44 | <@Tarinaky> | (Not to be confused with a fun Nazi, which is a poor choice of fancy dress costume) |
| 15:44 | <@Namegduf> | (Note: Pretty much any explicit reference to status is parody) |
| 15:45 | <@Tarinaky> | Thought of another book. |
| 15:45 | <@Tarinaky> | I've read 1984. |
| 15:45 | <@Namegduf> | Never read 1984 while exhausted, then fall asleep. |
| 15:45 | <@Namegduf> | You will have fucked up dreams. |
| 15:45 | <@Namegduf> | At significantly elevated rate. |
| 15:46 | <@Tarinaky> | And err... Was Kafka's The Metamorphosis a short story or a book? |
| 15:46 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't remember. |
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| 20:45 | <@Azash> | http://i.imgur.com/HPQ8TTj.png |
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| 21:41 | < AnnoDomini> | What is that book even about? |
| 21:41 | <@Azash> | The snakes, I think |
| 21:42 | <&McMartin> | Also crazy person who thinks God is talking to them and telling them to be afraid of everything |
| 21:44 | | * Reiv_ arises. Presumes he needs to POST. |
| 21:44 | <@Azash> | How about GET? |
| 21:45 | <@Tamber> | HEAD |
| 21:46 | <@Azash> | Reiv_: If people hassle you too much, PUT them in their place |
| 21:46 | <@Tamber> | :D |
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| 22:41 | <@Tamber> | Sanity check from someone who can read maths better than I do, please. http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/8/8/3/883809a46e0ed320270e5090901c2f66.png With A=90, l=100, and r=25, I get x=86.269 (rounded) |
| 22:42 | <@Tamber> | (If I've screwed this up, I think I'll go weep over the more complicated one. :) |
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| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | > (define A 90) |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | > (define l 100) |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | > (define r 25) |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | > (+ (* r (cos A)) (sqrt (- (* l l) (* r r (sin A) (sin A))))) |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | 86.2685716633021 |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | Checks out. Showing work so others can check that. |
| 22:43 | <@Tamber> | Thank-you. :) |
| 22:44 | < Reiv_> | McMartin: That is a lot of parenthesis |
| 22:44 | <@Tamber> | I struggle with translating equations from Math to Stuff I Can Feed The 'terp |
| 22:44 | <@Tamber> | Reiv: You should see the *other* one. |
| 22:45 | <@Tamber> | http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/a/0/a/a0a47e5f91389bea51ddfb4aca431173.png |
| 22:46 | | * Tamber parens all the things |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | Well, they do simplify it so you only need the final line~ |
| 22:48 | <@Tamber> | Indeed. |
| 22:48 | <@Tamber> | (I read math just well enough to know that, thankfully. :) |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | There's also some shared terms |
| 22:49 | <@Tamber> | ( http://pastebin.furryhelix.co.uk/post/279 is my implementation of *that* one. *crank-radius* = r, crank-angle = A, *rod-length* = l. ) |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey, I didn't realize you were *actually using* a Lisp dialect :D |
| 22:49 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | I just had gsi handy |
| 22:49 | <@Tamber> | I'm difficult like that. |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | In that case, I'll say it more directly than I was trying to paraphrase! |
| 22:50 | <&McMartin> | "You can totally use a let clause for that sqrt term in the denominator. While the denominators aren't the same, that sqrt thing *is*" |
| 22:50 | <&McMartin> | I'm guessing whichever Lisp you're using isn't Scheme, too, since I see you're using the Common LISP dynvar convention |
| 22:50 | <@Tamber> | SBCL |
| 22:51 | | * McMartin nods |
| 22:52 | <&McMartin> | Not a system I'm familiar with, but I see it's standards-compliant, which means I don't have to be :D |
| 22:52 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 22:52 | <@Tamber> | If it's compliant with any standards, that's only by accident. |
| 22:52 | <@Tamber> | (Er, well, SBCL is compliant. I am not.) |
| 22:52 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I was going to say "Their standards compliance statement is literally the third sentence" |
| 22:53 | <@Tamber> | Aha |
| 22:53 | <&McMartin> | er, literally the third sentence on their webpage |
| 22:53 | <@Tamber> | I thought you meant my code. Which... yeah, see the "only by accident" remark. :p |
| 22:54 | <&McMartin> | You're naming some variables *with-asterisk-pairs*, which conventionally means "I was defined with defvar" |
| 22:55 | <@Tamber> | ...well, hot damn, that means I *am* standards compliant. |
| 22:55 | <@Tamber> | Well, convention compliant. :) |
| 22:56 | <&McMartin> | Those variables are dynamically rather than lexically scoped, which means they are, in the parlance of basically every other major language, technically known as "wack-ass". |
| 22:56 | <@Tamber> | Hee |
| 22:56 | <&McMartin> | So it's important to clearly mark them as wackass |
| 22:57 | <&McMartin> | I forget if Scheme even has these or if it fakes them with dynamic-wind |
| 23:00 | <@Tamber> | Whoops. Time for me to drag myself away from the code, and get some sleep; work in the morning. Thanks for the sanity check! *flee* |
| 23:02 | <&McMartin> | Scheme has them but doesn't expose it. -_- |
| 23:02 | | * McMartin tsks. |
| 23:02 | <&McMartin> | I think it's because you can fake it with dynamic-wind as long as you aren't multithreaded, and Scheme doesn't contemplate multithreading |
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| 23:14 | | * Azash has a random network outage and immediately realizes a bill is a month overdue |
| 23:15 | <@Azash> | http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/565/399/9c0.jpg |
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| --- Log closed Mon Nov 25 00:00:49 2013 |