| --- Log opened Sun Oct 27 00:00:01 2013 |
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| 00:22 | < JustBob> | Huh. |
| 00:22 | < JustBob> | Rasm, in arabic, means "pattern, outline, or design" |
| 00:23 | < JustBob> | so RasmASM could be a legit term for an assembler language. :p |
| 00:23 | <@Alek> | ahaha |
| 00:23 | <@Alek> | nice |
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| 01:32 | | * McMartin gets cracking on Monocle again. |
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| 01:43 | <&McMartin> | I think I've finally gotten the JSON-based resource specifiers basically working. |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | I have one more chunk of work to do---which is basically API refactoring---and then I have to go back to basics and do difficult design work. |
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| 08:57 | < JustBob> | Hrm. |
| 08:57 | < JustBob> | So, how deep can you stack virtual machines? |
| 08:57 | <@froztbyte> | maybe two or three |
| 08:57 | < JustBob> | Like, if I run VMware on Windows, can I run VMware on Windos, iteratively, until I run into the limits of RAM and processor power available to me, or am I limited to some finite depth? |
| 08:58 | <@froztbyte> | some of it might depend on what CPU flags things use |
| 08:58 | < JustBob> | Assuming that there is some infinite number of machines I can use, that is. |
| 08:58 | < JustBob> | Err, infinite-capacity processor and RAM, that is. |
| 08:58 | <@froztbyte> | a lot of things do hardware optimization by way of CPU |
| 08:59 | <@froztbyte> | and you don't have that capability being passed further down, iirc |
| 08:59 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I'm not sure if the VT-x capability self-virtualizes. |
| 08:59 | <&McMartin> | But it might; it might be some kind of super-MMU, in which case nested VMs would be, to the hardware, not unlike VMs run side-by-side |
| 08:59 | <@froztbyte> | if you go the route of qemu, you could probably get a couple of ways down |
| 08:59 | <&McMartin> | I would generally disadvise nesting VMs though |
| 09:00 | <@froztbyte> | yeah |
| 09:00 | <@froztbyte> | scheduling nightmare |
| 09:00 | <@froztbyte> | JustBob: is this a purely academic question? |
| 09:00 | <&McMartin> | VT-x capability is usually only *mandatory* when running a 64-bit guest in a 32-bit host OS |
| 09:00 | <~Vornicus> | So just using emulators available on my machine: I can have a Mac VMing Windows VMing /older/ mac VMing a GBA which itself pretends to be a GB. Or if you want to be explicity at each layer, replace the GBA with a C64, and that has a PET emulator software. |
| 09:01 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
| 09:01 | <@froztbyte> | what are you using in each case? |
| 09:01 | <@froztbyte> | and why? |
| 09:02 | <~Vornicus> | Well, okay, I don't have a C64 emulator for 68k macs now, but I know that they existed and IIRC were the same project as the ones I use now. |
| 09:03 | < JustBob> | It's an academic question. |
| 09:03 | < JustBob> | I was just wondering how deep I could get the rabbit hole to be. |
| 09:04 | <~Vornicus> | Pretty deep, but you might get the nested VMs to not look like it to the hardware, in which case it'd be "how many can you fit in RAM?" |
| 09:05 | <~Vornicus> | 'course, usually I don't need full strength emulation. |
| 09:05 | <~Vornicus> | WINE is kind of amazing. |
| 09:06 | < JustBob> | Well, there is that. |
| 09:06 | < JustBob> | I was considering full-strength emulation, though. Nesting multiple iterations of the same OS in VMs until it failed due to conflicts. |
| 09:07 | <~Vornicus> | Well, this is code |
| 09:07 | <~Vornicus> | So the number is either 1 or infinity. |
| 09:07 | <&McMartin> | WINE is a shim |
| 09:07 | <&McMartin> | JustBob: And yeah, conflicts only happen when the hardware "knows" about VMs. |
| 09:08 | <&McMartin> | Which has started happening recently, but if you're doing true emulation, it doesn't know. It just gets slower and slower |
| 09:08 | <&McMartin> | Eventually you run out of some resource, probably RAM. |
| 09:09 | < JustBob> | Heh |
| 09:15 | < JustBob> | So in other words, assuming pure software emulation... The answer is resource-dependent. |
| 09:15 | < JustBob> | That seems reasonable to me. |
| 09:26 | < Stalker> | If you had infinite processing power and infinite memory you ought, theoretically, be able to string together virtual machines until something breaks or judgement day. |
| 09:29 | < JustBob> | ...now I'm tempted to see how many I can stack on the Citrix cluster at school. |
| 09:31 | <@froztbyte> | XenServer? |
| 09:32 | < JustBob> | Yeah. |
| 09:32 | <@froztbyte> | you can't recurse a xen instance |
| 09:32 | < JustBob> | Apparently it's popular enough with the engineering students that they dedicated a server cluster for it alone. |
| 09:32 | <@froztbyte> | ...at least, not trivially |
| 09:32 | <@froztbyte> | I don't recall if the hypervisor is still a split model |
| 09:32 | <@froztbyte> | (or shared kernel) |
| 09:33 | <@froztbyte> | but you have a dom0 and a domU |
| 09:33 | <@gnolam> | Stalker: Turingception! |
| 09:33 | <@froztbyte> | one dom0, many domU's |
| 09:33 | <@froztbyte> | I don't believe it's possible to stick a dom0 on a dom0 |
| 09:33 | <@froztbyte> | but! |
| 09:34 | < JustBob> | That reminds me. |
| 09:34 | <@froztbyte> | if the kernels are no longer split, you can smack it about a bit to see how close it gets to working |
| 09:34 | < JustBob> | Before I graduate... I need to yoink a crapton of win7 and a couple win8 keys. |
| 09:34 | <@froztbyte> | heh |
| 09:34 | <@froztbyte> | do the walkabout ;) |
| 09:35 | <@froztbyte> | unless you can just take 'em from a doc |
| 09:36 | < JustBob> | Snerk. |
| 09:37 | < JustBob> | I meant off DreamSpark. OSU has a deal with MS for free MS software. |
| 09:37 | < JustBob> | Mostly the OSes, etc. |
| 09:37 | <@gnolam> | With surprisingly decent licenses, if yours are the same as ours. |
| 09:38 | < JustBob> | Yup. I can get XP, 7pro, 7pro/server, win8, win8.1, and a lot of Office products. |
| 09:39 | < JustBob> | Server 2012, uh... Vstudio 2012, a few others. |
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| --- Log closed Mon Oct 28 00:00:17 2013 |