| --- Log opened Fri Oct 25 00:00:31 2013 |
| 00:03 | <&Derakon> | That second one sounds about right. |
| 00:03 | <&Derakon> | Though I have trouble with e.g. saying "class inheritance is a sign of weakness in a language." |
| 00:04 | <&Derakon> | (And many design patterns are just "use class inheritance in this straightforward manner." |
| 00:04 | <@Tarinaky> | I think the point was more along the lines of "use class inheritance in this straightforward manner to complete something that is more naturally expressed in another language's idioms" |
| 00:05 | <&Derakon> | That works sometimes. I have trouble believing it works all the time. |
| 00:05 | <@Tarinaky> | These days I'm convinced that the only awful languages are the ones I happen to be using at the time. |
| 00:05 | <@Tarinaky> | As soon as I stop using them I can put them back behind the rose tinted glass~ |
| 00:07 | <@Namegduf> | Even with typical low information density, the books on design patterns are in no way just saying "use class inheritance in this straightforward manner". |
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| 00:33 | <@Azash> | http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2013/Oct/210 |
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| 01:52 | < Harlow> | Anyone know why Xcode's default Main function take these arguments? (int argc, const char * argv[]) |
| 01:53 | <&McMartin> | That's the standard arguments for main in C, C++, and Objective-C. |
| 01:53 | <&McMartin> | With the traditional names. |
| 01:53 | <&McMartin> | argument count, argument vector. |
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| 01:54 | <@celticminstrel> | Furthermore, main should return int, not void. |
| 01:55 | <@celticminstrel> | The argv contains any arguments that were passed to the program on the command-line. |
| 01:55 | < [R]> | There's also a char ** env argument available sometimes. |
| 01:56 | <@celticminstrel> | That's a Windows thing. |
| 01:56 | < [R]> | Like argv, it's a NULL-terminated array of NUL-terminated strings (AKA C-strings) |
| 01:56 | <@celticminstrel> | I think. |
| 01:56 | < [R]> | Linux |
| 01:56 | <@celticminstrel> | argv is NULL-terminated? |
| 01:56 | < [R]> | Yes |
| 01:56 | <@celticminstrel> | Then why does argc exist? |
| 01:56 | < [R]> | Windows does the (HWND hwnd, ... etc crap) |
| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | I am not convinced that argc is guaranteed to be null-terminated. |
| 01:56 | <@celticminstrel> | Either way, the env argument is non-standard. |
| 01:57 | < [R]> | Because not all systems NULL-terminate it. |
| 01:57 | < [R]> | AFAIK |
| 01:57 | < [R]> | But on Linux it is NULL-terminated. |
| 01:57 | <&McMartin> | Windows has multiple entrypoints depending on what kind of executable you are. |
| 01:57 | <&McMartin> | WinMain, wWinMain, main, or wmain, IIRC. |
| 01:57 | <@celticminstrel> | I was assuming console app. |
| 01:58 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. There are #defines that hide it, but wmain is the the entry point where argv is a pre-converted-to-Unicode WCHAR string |
| 01:58 | <&McMartin> | And as such usually what you want when developing console on Windows >_> |
| 01:59 | <&McMartin> | I think env may be standard on POSIX, but it's not standard in C. |
| 01:59 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 01:59 | <&McMartin> | This is XCode, for instance, so I'm pretty sure it can take an env argument. |
| 02:00 | | * celticminstrel wonders if Harlow is going to say anything else. |
| 02:00 | <&McMartin> | Most developers will instead use getenv and setenv or a macro that forwards to those on POSIX and GetEnvironmentVariableA on Windows. |
| 02:02 | <&McMartin> | (Windows actually implements a small subset of POSIX beyond what the C standard actually requires, but there is a lot of baked-in assumptions there. C code tends to be harder to port than C++ code that makes exclusive use of things like boost::filesystem and boost::thread.) |
| 02:02 | | * ToxicFrog eyes bash |
| 02:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | It sucks when the standard is ambiguous. |
| 02:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | It sucks more, however, when the standard mandates perfectly clear, unambiguous behaviour that just happens to be completely insane |
| 02:02 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> | Isn't this literally the reason Perl exists~ |
| 02:03 | | * Harlow was asking for a break in the conversation to say thanks for all of the information |
| 02:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: in this case it's set -e |
| 02:03 | < Harlow> | Waiting** |
| 02:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | Specifically, guess the output: (set -e; echo "one"; false; echo "two") || echo "subshell command failed" |
| 02:04 | <@celticminstrel> | Heh. |
| 02:04 | <&McMartin> | I don't have enough shell background to guess: I'd give up immediately after hitting the set -e |
| 02:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | (and contrast with: (set -e; echo "one"; false; echo "two"); [[ $? ]] && echo "subshell command failed") |
| 02:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | set -e is "enable the option that causes the shell to exit immediately if any one command fails" |
| 02:05 | < Harlow> | celticminstrel: What did you expect? |
| 02:05 | <@celticminstrel> | Hm? |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | We do occasionally have drive-bys who log in, ask something and then say nothing for 12 hours and peer out |
| 02:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | The best part is that this is deep and not lexically scoped: |
| 02:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | function foo() { (set -e; echo a; false; echo b) }; foo; foo ||: |
| 02:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | Outputs a a b |
| 02:11 | <&McMartin> | Going way back |
| 02:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: the, for example, JVM equivalent is that if your function is called as part of a boolean expression, throw becomes a no-op. |
| 02:11 | <&McMartin> | Derakon: The "language deficiency" thing is for stuff like Factories |
| 02:12 | <&McMartin> | Factories exist because your language doesn't have virtual constructors, so you have to code up the glue for a virtual constructor by hand |
| 02:12 | <&McMartin> | Likewise Visitors and multiple dispatch, and Strategy/Command/Chain of Responsibility/about five others for "functions aren't first-class objects" |
| 02:12 | <&McMartin> | The latter is why functional programmers are all so bitter about everything~ |
| 02:13 | <&ToxicFrog> | This relationship is transitive; if the top level script does 'a || echo "a failed"', and a calls b calls c calls d calls e, and e throws, the throw doesn't actually happen. |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 02:13 | <&ToxicFrog> | This behaviour is required by POSIX |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | I think the piece I was missing here was that I'd forgotten about ( opening a subshell |
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| 07:07 | < JustBob> | And here's my assignment, due in, oh, 14 hours: http://i.imgur.com/I8o7HQV.png |
| 07:07 | < JustBob> | Maybe I should start these things earlier... |
| 07:11 | <@Tarinaky> | Well, the programming looks straightforward but I have no knowledge of the physics. |
| 07:12 | < JustBob> | The physics are easy; it's six equations. |
| 07:14 | < JustBob> | And thankfully, that's the clarified version. The original was "an input file." Without specifying it was whitespace seperated, as opposed to commas or something. |
| 07:23 | <@Tarinaky> | http://i.imgur.com/0rvW5uK.jpg |
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| 07:45 | < JustBob> | So true. |
| 07:49 | <@Tarinaky> | So many second years right now complaining that 'they have no idea where to start' on the Sudoku solver assignment that was due this week. |
| 07:58 | < Syka> | Tarinaky: give them that stack overflow question as a hint |
| 07:58 | < Syka> | (the one that solved soduku in CONSTANT TIME) |
| 08:09 | <@Tarinaky> | They've seen it. I've even given them a simple for-each pseudocode that implemented one of the necessary features but was greeted with "but that doesn't do Y,Z other stuff that's needed". |
| 08:10 | <@Tarinaky> | I've come to the conclusion there's two possibilities: 1) Either they fail at the FizzBuzz problem |
| 08:10 | <@Tarinaky> | 2) What they actually mean is 'I want someone to do my work for me' |
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| 08:10 | < Syka> | all of the above seems plausible too |
| 08:10 | < Syka> | i once wrote a small portion of an eternity II solver |
| 08:11 | < Syka> | 'solver' :D |
| 08:16 | <@Tarinaky> | It also doesn't help the assignment is poorly designed such that there has to be an explicit guard against the obvious (and arguably better) solution of doing a Search. |
| 08:18 | <@Tarinaky> | Which means even at this point there are second yeard who have failed at reading comprehension and go "Oh. Well there goes my solution." |
| 08:23 | <&McMartin> | Oh, does it have to do the Forced Deduction route? |
| 08:23 | <&McMartin> | The search is better because it optimizes programmer time, but Forced Deduction is the only way to make the problem "interesting" |
| 08:23 | <&McMartin> | This is one of several reasons Klotski's a better problem. =P |
| 08:24 | <@Tarinaky> | The lecturer has two assignments, because he's not allowed to run the same assignment the year immediately following. |
| 08:24 | <@Tarinaky> | The two assignments are now sufficiently old that there are errors/inaccuracies/confusing points on it that will not be updated ever. |
| 08:25 | <@Tarinaky> | There is a high degree of That Guy-ism :p |
| 08:26 | <@Tarinaky> | I really need to get moving to my lecture. Bye/ |
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| 11:38 | <@Tarinaky> | http://i.imgur.com/NKZhU57.png Somewhat relevant. |
| 11:52 | <@Tarinaky> | Okay. I think I /might/ be overanalysing this. |
| 11:59 | <@gnolam> | Heh. Found on a local shop's contact page: |
| 11:59 | <@gnolam> | "NEVER use this address: |
| 11:59 | <@gnolam> | [e-mail address] |
| 11:59 | <@gnolam> | It's here for spammers to find. We need a mail box with 100% spam to train our Bayes filter." |
| 12:00 | <@Tarinaky> | But it /looks/ like some of the low-energy transfer stuff /is/ implementable in a 2-body/Keplerian model. |
| 12:01 | <@Tarinaky> | It just requires (I think) searching for gravity assists. |
| 12:04 | < RichyB> | gnolam, I would seriously have killed that email address by display:none'ing it with CSS so that humans would never find it. |
| 12:06 | <@TheWatcher> | Think about it a bit more |
| 12:06 | <@TheWatcher> | Someone emails you using an email address you tell them never to use, and give an explanation for why. |
| 12:06 | <@TheWatcher> | I'd classify that as spam myself >.> |
| 12:07 | < RichyB> | Simple explanation for why: they're a prospective customer and they didn't read the text, they just grabbed the first thing that looked like a mailto: link. |
| 12:08 | <@Tarinaky> | Not everyone is a CSS wizard. |
| 12:08 | <@Tarinaky> | And paying someone who is requires compensating them for their services. |
| 12:08 | <@TheWatcher> | RichyB: which raises the question of whether you want such a person as a customer |
| 12:09 | <@Tarinaky> | Unless you want to personally volunteer to set up everyone's dinky little web page probono you're not allowed to complain that they got their friend's nephew to do it for beer money :p |
| 12:09 | < RichyB> | It's considered traditional where I'm from to view things like banners, brochures and the company website as marketing investments. |
| 12:09 | <@Tarinaky> | That doesn't mean pockets are limitless. |
| 12:10 | < RichyB> | If you think that that's reasonable then you're running a completely clownshoes company. Don't be surprised when Starbucks eats you. |
| 12:11 | <@Tarinaky> | So what you're saying is that the only people who should be allowed to compete in the market are established monopolies with large parent companies to fund marketing investments :p |
| 12:11 | <@Tarinaky> | And that there's no space for smaller enterprises that must expend their resources judiciously, even if it means missing out on some investments. |
| 12:14 | <@Tarinaky> | (Okay, monopoly isn't the right word - oligopoly?) |
| 12:16 | <@gnolam> | ANGHaghg |
| 12:16 | <@Tarinaky> | I've clearly said something to offend. |
| 12:16 | <@gnolam> | Yet another "herp derp a plus that can't be a proper e-mail address" |
| 12:16 | <@gnolam> | DIE DIE DIE |
| 12:16 | <@gnolam> | BURN |
| 12:16 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh. |
| 12:20 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
| 12:20 | <@froztbyte> | gnolam: I have a catchall domain for that purpose |
| 12:20 | <@froztbyte> | identifier@domain.tld |
| 12:20 | <@froztbyte> | much easier than getting caremad |
| 12:20 | <@froztbyte> | (I did get caremad a lot before then) |
| 12:21 | < Syka> | then froztbyte transcended caremad |
| 12:21 | <@gnolam> | If by "easier" you mean "I have to go buy a domain and hosting and configure the shit out of a bunch of things". |
| 12:22 | < Syka> | and just became caresarcastic |
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| 12:23 | <@froztbyte> | gnolam: I already have a server and postfix around |
| 12:23 | <@froztbyte> | I guess it matters a bit more if you need to get all that |
| 12:28 | <@froztbyte> | I've seriously been pondering putting some general-usage puppet manifests for stuff like that on the internet |
| 12:28 | <@froztbyte> | "this will give you a basic webserver. you don't need a full puppet setup. run it like so." |
| 12:28 | <@froztbyte> | those kind of things |
| 12:28 | < Syka> | that would be handy |
| 12:29 | | * Syka needs to actually put something like that into service |
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| 17:18 | <@Tarinaky> | https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1395837_10151751321798227_46498 0136_n.jpg << *giggle* |
| 17:20 | <@Namegduf> | XD |
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| 17:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | What in god's name is this |
| 17:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | The table is generated by javascript |
| 17:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | Based on a list of objects |
| 17:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | Created by factory methods |
| 17:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | Called by an initializer function |
| 17:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which processes a JSON stream |
| 17:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | Created from a list of URLs that return JSON |
| 17:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which is a representation of the information that could have been rendered directly into the page at render_to_response time to begin with |
| 17:54 | < Syka> | hey |
| 17:54 | < Syka> | get out of my code |
| 17:54 | | * Syka shoos ToxicFrog out of there |
| 17:55 | <@Tamber> | "Frogs, in my code? It's more likely than you think." |
| 17:57 | < Syka> | since he is a *toxic* frog, i am blaming this code on him |
| 17:57 | | * Syka notes this is perfectly logical |
| 18:05 | | * iospace hats ToxicFrog |
| 18:05 | <@Tamber> | Valvespace? |
| 18:06 | <@Tamber> | iovalve! |
| 18:10 | < RichyB> | eh? |
| 18:10 | < RichyB> | iospace, news? :D |
| 18:11 | <@iospace> | no |
| 18:11 | <@iospace> | :< |
| 18:24 | < Syka> | wut |
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| 20:31 | <@gnolam> | http://www.wired.com/design/2013/10/15-awesome-looking-viruses-from-the-ms-dos-e ra/ |
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| 21:49 | | * Ogredude does the Happy Dance because ALL THE TESTS ARE GREEN! |
| 21:49 | < ErikMesoy> | yay |
| 21:51 | <&McMartin> | Finally, an acceptable use for color in IRC |
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| 21:58 | < Ogredude> | glad you agree :) |
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| --- Log closed Sat Oct 26 00:00:46 2013 |