| --- Log opened Sat Sep 28 00:00:09 2013 |
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| 00:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | xybre: I think what this shows is that "viable language" and "good language" are orthogonal. |
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| 00:09 | <&McMartin> | From what I've been able to read of it, COBOL is a language designed to solve a problem we no longer have |
| 00:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | D may be a good language, but it's hard to tell, because it's not a viable one, because the tool and library ecosystem is a tragic clusterfuck. |
| 00:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Conversely, PHP is clearly a viable language based on the sheer amount of stuff written in it, but only people with severe brain damage claim that it's a good one. |
| 00:10 | < [R]> | I remember using D program once |
| 00:10 | < [R]> | It was a bitch to compile |
| 00:10 | < [R]> | D: |
| 00:10 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: True, though absent from that is the threshold C++ finally hit in the mid 2000s. |
| 00:11 | <&McMartin> | Which is, it became semantically meaningful to refer to "C++" as "a language" as opposed to "a collection of not remotely compatible dialects" |
| 00:11 | <&McMartin> | Pascal, meanwhile, became viable once it stopped being "a langauge" and became "a collection of not remotely compatible dialects". AFAIK Delphi is still fairly widely used. |
| 00:11 | <&McMartin> | *language |
| 00:13 | <&McMartin> | I remember finding artifacts proving that Borland C++ was used as a tool when trying to extract secrets from the Ultima 6 binaries back in the day. |
| 00:15 | | * McMartin goes and checks |
| 00:15 | <&McMartin> | I'm wrong. It was Turbo C. :D |
| 00:15 | <&McMartin> | With its 1988 copyright. |
| 00:16 | <&McMartin> | Star Control 2, meanwhile, was using DOS-4GW, I think so that it could access over 640KB of RAM. |
| 00:16 | <~Vornicus> | I never even met D |
| 00:22 | <@gnolam> | D was always a non-starter. |
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| 00:45 | | * Vornicus eyes the code on the wikipedia page. Weird. |
| 00:47 | <~Vornicus> | 33333333333333333333333333333333333/***************** |
| 00:53 | <&McMartin> | \o/ |
| 00:53 | <~Vornicus> | Pearl wants to learn D apparently |
| 00:53 | <&McMartin> | is a kitty |
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| 07:43 | < Thalass|futball> | So... does anyone outside of business/government/tinfoil hat land use PGP encryption? |
| 07:43 | < ErikMesoy> | Do you have a definition of "tin foil hat land" that isn't recursive in this context? |
| 07:44 | < ErikMesoy> | Rebels and activists? Although maybe they're government-in-waiting. |
| 07:44 | < Thalass|futball> | heh |
| 07:45 | < Thalass|futball> | I read Little Brother a while ago, and it got me interested. But there's not much point using PGP if nobody else is. |
| 07:50 | <&McMartin> | The main problem with things like PGP is that they only really protect things in transit |
| 07:50 | <&McMartin> | Encrypted email falls just as readily to keyloggers and screenscrapers as unencrypted. |
| 07:50 | <&McMartin> | The one there that's nearly universal though is "in business" |
| 07:50 | <&McMartin> | Lots of people should be using that in business who aren't. |
| 07:57 | < Thalass|futball> | Yeah as far as i know we just use standard outlook web access at work. |
| 08:09 | | Thalass|futball is now known as Thalass|PA |
| 08:27 | < Syka_> | that should be at least SSL encrypted |
| 08:28 | < Syka_> | with (hopefully) startssl end to end |
| 08:28 | < Syka_> | depending on how competent your and everyone elses admins are |
| 08:28 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 08:28 | <&McMartin> | If you're worried about SPIES EVERYWHERE, SPIES, SPIES then GPG isn't likely to help because the gummint is allowed to kick your door down and demand your decryption keys |
| 08:28 | < Syka_> | (startssl for smtp, that is) |
| 08:29 | < Syka_> | I still think that the NSA is a problem |
| 08:29 | < Syka_> | BUT |
| 08:29 | < Syka_> | I don't think it's a problem, business wise |
| 08:29 | < Syka_> | since I have everything to hide personally |
| 08:30 | < Syka_> | but I don't believe that companies do (outside of trade secrets naturally) |
| 08:30 | <&McMartin> | Well |
| 08:30 | <&McMartin> | Substitute "the Russian Mafia" for "the NSA"~ |
| 08:30 | < Syka_> | heh |
| 08:30 | < Syka_> | well, I think that worrying about your govt as a business is sort of unneeded |
| 08:30 | < Syka_> | but everyone else? |
| 08:30 | < Syka_> | be shit scared |
| 08:31 | <&McMartin> | Well, that's kinda the thing. |
| 08:31 | <&McMartin> | The NSA isn't your government, is it? |
| 08:31 | <&McMartin> | "NSA" and "The Russian Mafia" and "Chinese spies" are *all* "nation-state level cyberespionage adversaries" |
| 08:31 | < Syka_> | according to five-eyes, they might as well be |
| 08:32 | < Syka_> | (intel-wise) |
| 08:33 | | * Syka_ eyes the US listening post about a thousand km from her |
| 08:33 | <&McMartin> | I was going to say: "quite the opposite, really; if they were, they wouldn't be able to use the defense 'this is literally our job' when challenged on it" |
| 08:33 | < Syka_> | heh |
| 08:34 | < Syka_> | I don't have that defence /anyway/ |
| 08:34 | < Syka_> | I am fairly sure that Australian law is incredibly lax in the 1984 department |
| 08:34 | <&McMartin> | Well, the NSA doesn't have that defense on *me*, for instance. |
| 08:34 | <&McMartin> | But GCHQ does. |
| 08:34 | < Syka_> | McMartin: and ASIO! :D |
| 08:34 | < Syka_> | (we spy on people too!!!) |
| 08:34 | <&McMartin> | (shock) |
| 08:34 | <&McMartin> | I don't know if ASIO has the same injunction that NSA does, though. |
| 08:35 | <&McMartin> | Spying on Americans by Americans is the FBI's turf. |
| 08:35 | < Syka_> | the GCHQ stuff was not surprising |
| 08:35 | < Syka_> | at all |
| 08:35 | <&McMartin> | Bureaucratic turf wars are supposed to be one of the ways we keep them in line |
| 08:35 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, pretty much. |
| 08:35 | | * Syka_ points at ECHELON+FiveEyes |
| 08:35 | < Syka_> | that shit has been happening for fourty years |
| 08:35 | <&McMartin> | Well, no, that's not what to point at |
| 08:35 | | * McMartin points at every street corner in London. |
| 08:35 | < Syka_> | I mean the intel sharing |
| 08:36 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 08:36 | < Syka_> | "GCHQ giving data to the Americans and vice versa" |
| 08:36 | < Syka_> | Five Eyes/UKUSA is UK, USA, Canada, Australia and I think za |
| 08:36 | <&McMartin> | nz, not za |
| 08:36 | < Syka_> | oh yes |
| 08:37 | <&McMartin> | I don't actually have a sane argument against this, because "allies are supposed to share useful information with one another" and "allies can be reasonably expected to spy on each other to keep their diplomats honest if nothing else" are both fairly reasonable propositions |
| 08:37 | < Syka_> | i forgot nz mattered for any reason for a minute there |
| 08:37 | <&McMartin> | Tsk tsk. Resurrecting ANZUS was one of Hillary Clinton's major diplomatic achievements~ |
| 08:38 | <&McMartin> | Though Australia was kind of a bystander there, I guess. |
| 08:38 | < Syka_> | well |
| 08:38 | <&McMartin> | (US and NZ had a major diplomatic falling out decades ago, so this nominal alliance has mostly been the US and NZ communicating via telling Australia 'hey, tell that other asshole that...') |
| 08:39 | < Syka_> | heh. |
| 08:39 | < Syka_> | oh, .nz |
| 08:40 | < Syka_> | I literally have no idea what they do |
| 08:40 | < Syka_> | or what of relevance they have ever done, apart from lose at rugby |
| 08:40 | | * Syka_ hides from any New Zealanders |
| 09:03 | | * Thalass|PA coughs |
| 09:03 | | * Syka_ offers Thalass|PA some fush for his chups as a peace offering |
| 09:03 | < Syka_> | :p |
| 09:04 | < Thalass|PA> | A national government shouldn't be run like a business. But that's an economic policy thing. As far as privacy goes: You wouldn't want to be forced to take a dump in a glass outdoor dunny. Even if you didn't have anything to hide. |
| 09:04 | | * Thalass|PA noogies |
| 09:04 | < Thalass|PA> | I'm Austrahlian, bonza, etc. |
| 09:04 | < Syka_> | oh |
| 09:04 | < Thalass|PA> | :P |
| 09:04 | < Syka_> | ...who says 'bonza' |
| 09:05 | < Thalass|PA> | We do, apparently? |
| 09:05 | < Syka_> | whoever they are |
| 09:05 | < Syka_> | they're a wanker |
| 09:05 | | * Thalass|PA laughs |
| 09:08 | < Thalass|PA> | I hate being automatically thought of as a criminal. See also: I wear a beard. And: The new police cars that scan and do a database search on every number plate they see. |
| 09:08 | < Syka_> | i don't ever get any interest from the cops |
| 09:08 | < Syka_> | it's great |
| 09:09 | < Thalass|PA> | heh |
| 09:09 | | * Syka_ checks her privilge, etc etc |
| 09:11 | < Thalass|PA> | haha |
| 09:11 | < Syka_> | I could take my P plates off, right now, and they'd never be checked |
| 09:11 | < Syka_> | which would be good |
| 09:11 | < Syka_> | as i've lost one |
| 09:11 | < Syka_> | because kids like ripping the P/L plates off the back of mopeds >:C |
| 09:11 | < Syka_> | (where theyre held on with nothing stronger than cable ties, since there's no mounts) |
| 09:11 | < Syka_> | (on a fucking L-plater approved vehicle) |
| 09:12 | < Thalass|PA> | Ah LAMS. I wish we had the full version of that over here. I might be able to ride a bike more than once a week. |
| 09:13 | < Syka_> | lams is irrelevant to driving |
| 09:13 | < Syka_> | wait |
| 09:13 | < Syka_> | define 'over here; |
| 09:13 | < Syka_> | (I drive a moped, you don't need supervision on your P plates for those) |
| 09:14 | < Syka_> | at least in glorious Western Australia *salutes the mining industry* |
| 09:14 | < Thalass|PA> | i'm in WA. They just brought in a LAMS-esque thing, as far as the types of bikes you can ride, etc. But unlike in the east you still have to ride with someone at all times. Which is not entirely bad, but my bike sits in the garage gathering dust. >.< |
| 09:15 | < Syka_> | Thalass|PA: that's a license thing |
| 09:15 | < Syka_> | LAMS is just 'bikes that we're recommending learners to drive' |
| 09:15 | < Syka_> | i don't believe it gives you any special treatment re: licenses |
| 09:16 | | * Syka_ hugs her honda today 50, gets burns |
| 09:16 | < Thalass|PA> | I know that in victoria you get your Ls, do various computer-based tests, and then do a weekend on-bike course. After that you're allowed to ride on the road by your self for X number of months on Ls. |
| 09:16 | < Syka_> | huh |
| 09:17 | < Syka_> | neat |
| 09:17 | < Syka_> | too bad victoria is full of manager esque people |
| 09:17 | < Thalass|PA> | *snerk* |
| 09:17 | < Syka_> | man |
| 09:17 | < Syka_> | oldwork got a victorian ceo |
| 09:18 | < Syka_> | two years later, every director was victorian |
| 09:18 | < Syka_> | and several managers |
| 09:18 | < Syka_> | one of them was the laughing stock of his old area |
| 09:18 | < Thalass|PA> | Unsurprising. |
| 09:18 | < Syka_> | so he was put as an office manager of the other main office |
| 09:19 | | * Syka_ is on a crusade to fix that shit :| |
| 09:19 | < Thalass|PA> | Ugh. Don't get me started on office people. :P |
| 09:23 | < Thalass|PA> | though by that i mean management types and their hanger-ons. Not good honest code-monkeys. :P |
| 09:23 | < Syka_> | hehe |
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| 11:08 | < AverageJoe> | any php people online? |
| 11:09 | <&jerith> | AverageJoe: Most of us probably won't admit to it. |
| 11:09 | < AverageJoe> | :D |
| 11:10 | <&jerith> | But if you ask your question maybe someone can help? |
| 11:10 | < AverageJoe> | http://pastebin.com/xxPMTvGm why the FUCK won't it print line 11? it outputs the function but not the text. im beyond puzzled |
| 11:15 | < AverageJoe> | of course! another pair of parenthesis |
| 11:15 | < AverageJoe> | thanks anyways |
| 11:15 | <&jerith> | :-) |
| 11:23 | <@froztbyte> | rubber duck debugging |
| 11:23 | <@froztbyte> | (also, don't use php) |
| 11:23 | < Syka_> | froztbyte: in reverse order |
| 11:24 | <@froztbyte> | etybtzorf |
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| 14:47 | < AnnoDomini> | http://oi40.tinypic.com/123nwxz.jpg :D |
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| 15:12 | <@gnolam> | ? |
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| 15:16 | < AnnoDomini> | gnolam: My server. |
| 15:24 | <@froztbyte> | rofl |
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| 16:48 | < simon_> | has anyone here delved in similarity detection of software? |
| 16:48 | < simon_> | s/software/source code/ |
| 16:48 | < simon_> | I want to do something simple but not too simple. |
| 16:49 | < simon_> | e.g. I'm thinking of doing lexical analysis and then compare two lists of tokens |
| 16:50 | < simon_> | I'm guessing if two students cheat they rename their variables and function names and re-indent everything |
| 16:50 | < simon_> | but the general structure of their functions is the same. they might add a bunch of unnecessary parentheses |
| 16:51 | < simon_> | they might also change the order of functions, but I'm not considering that at first. |
| 16:51 | < simon_> | would you do something like measure the edit distance? |
| 16:52 | < simon_> | bad thing is: I've got like 200 assignments, and measuring edit distance, afaik, is somewhat expensive. so the n^2 blowup is a practical problem here. |
| 16:53 | < simon_> | I think I've heard of a smart solution that either sorts or clusters people based on similarity |
| 16:54 | | * simon_ is kind of annoyed that he's had to correct something like 10 assignments that *all* do "if A then true else B" and "if not A then B else false" in exactly the same places. |
| 16:56 | < ErikMesoy> | I've heard about Turnitin for this |
| 17:00 | < simon_> | I'm thinking something like this: http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~lloyd/tildeAlgDS/Dynamic/Edit/ -- but it's O(n^2) using arrays, which means I can't demonstrate this nicely in Standard ML (because Arrays are non-curriculum). Haskell's read-only arrays are pretty nice, though, so if there's no heuristic that works with lists rather than arrays, I'd go with this. |
| 17:00 | < simon_> | ErikMesoy, thanks! I'll look into Turnitin. |
| 17:02 | < simon_> | hmm, seems commercial and not necessarily tuned towards source code? |
| 17:02 | < simon_> | I can't use their large body of statistics for anything, I can only rely on good algorithms since I've only got a dataset of about 150-200 assignments ever made for this assignment. |
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| 17:12 | < ErikMesoy> | simon_: use something like a minifier to standardize indentation and names? |
| 17:15 | < ErikMesoy> | Dang, what's the word for the first half of a compiler? Thing that breaks down code into tokens and discards names. Lexer? |
| 17:15 | | * ErikMesoy waves hands vaguely. |
| 17:16 | <@Tamber> | preprocessor? |
| 17:16 | <@Tamber> | wait, no, I don't think so |
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| 17:35 | <@TheWatcher[afk]> | ErikMesoy: turnitin is shit for software |
| 17:35 | <@TheWatcher[afk]> | (well, frankly, turnitin is shit in general, but it's particularly bad for software) |
| 17:36 | <@TheWatcher[afk]> | (fucking snakeoil peddled to petrified professors and administrators who have no fucking clue) |
| 17:37 | <@TheWatcher[afk]> | IT gives a bad enough number of false positives (and false negatives) for basic text, code just makes it utterly crap itself |
| 17:37 | <@TheWatcher[afk]> | *It |
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| 18:12 | < simon_> | ErikMesoy, yeah, I was thinking of analysing the output of the lexer (tokens)! |
| 18:13 | < simon_> | ErikMesoy, I'll probably throw away stuff by ignoring whitespace. maybe I should treat whitespace as a parameterised token of the number of spaces, and treat that, too. |
| 18:14 | < simon_> | still, is there a better way than calculating the edit distance between each assignment? (I'm getting O(n^4) for that...) |
| 18:21 | < ErikMesoy> | I don't know if there's an algorithm or approach for the code problem, so I'll speculate on meatspace approaches: do you have any idea what subgroups of students would be in proximity to copy off one another? |
| 18:21 | < ErikMesoy> | carve off into groups (e.g. Thursday lecture group, Friday lecture group) if any such exist and search within those |
| 18:22 | < simon_> | actually I can spot a lot of them |
| 18:22 | < simon_> | but the devious ones go to different classes |
| 18:22 | < simon_> | so they hand their semi-identical assignments to different TAs. |
| 18:23 | < simon_> | nobody bothers to check for plagiarism across TA classes. |
| 18:25 | < ErikMesoy> | Hmm. I think this shares a lot of features with identifying redundant code rather than plagiarism; a quick search reveals a bunch of tools for that. http://www.harukizaemon.com/simian/ |
| 18:26 | < ErikMesoy> | This says it catches independent implementation of duplicate features, which sounds to me as though it would be very similar to renamed plagiarism |
| 18:27 | < simon_> | I did look at that. I think I need to do a bit more fuzzy matching. |
| 18:27 | < simon_> | but yes, many of the code duplication methods are quite related to plagiarism. |
| 18:28 | < simon_> | a friend of mine did his BSc project on code duplication by reducing syntax trees to many-dimensional vectors and performing heuristic comparisons on them. |
| 18:28 | < simon_> | that's one way. another way, I think, is hashing code and then comparing hashes. but I don't know exactly what a meaningful hash is in this context. |
| 18:29 | < simon_> | I guess a vector is a sort of hash. |
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| 23:56 | < ErikMesoy> | Advise, please: How much crack is the Urbit guy on? https://github.com/cgyarvin/urbit/blob/6012eed7a31f7dc9db323dbc4b1cbf361923f620/ lib/191/arvo/ames.hoon |
| 23:57 | < ErikMesoy> | I'm morbidly fascinated, because I know of Yarvin from his writings elsewhere, and he's been writing for years without ever going insane. He acknowledges that writing this is difficult and possibly pointless and arguably a bad idea for a variety of reasons, and he is /not/ trying to be obfuscated. |
| 23:57 | <@Tamber> | All of it? |
| 23:58 | < ErikMesoy> | If he's a troll, it's an incredible multi-year troll with an immense amount of effort. |
| 23:58 | < ErikMesoy> | Tamber: Yeah, something like that. I am driven towards the conclusion that Yarvin has been smoking /all/ the *really good shit* to come up with this |
| 23:58 | <@Tamber> | :p |
| --- Log closed Sun Sep 29 00:00:24 2013 |