| --- Log opened Sat Sep 14 00:00:38 2013 |
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| 00:27 | <@froztbyte> | https://twitter.com/molovo/status/360346792602259456 |
| 00:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | Derakon[AFK]: tell him to write a something else -> lua compiler~ |
| 00:41 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 00:44 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:44 | <&Derakon> | TF: I told him to write a something else <-> Lua inter-language glue system. |
| 00:45 | <~Vornicus> | Note that this already exists for quite a number of languages. |
| 00:46 | <~Vornicus> | there's lunatic for python, the whole language is directly available as functions in C... |
| 00:46 | <&Derakon> | Well, it's a bit trickier when the Lua is already embedded in another program. |
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| 00:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | Only slightly, assuming that the host program permits the use of loadlib() |
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| 01:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | <nvining> Complete list of opium-related bugs this week: |
| 01:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | - citizens picking up large, metal buckets of opium and never putting them down. |
| 01:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | - citizens crying into opium |
| 01:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | - citizens throwing opium at each other (in large, metal buckets) |
| 01:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | - citizens extracting opium from cabbages |
| 01:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | - citizens picking up opium and then fleeing from it |
| 01:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | <quiggy> Those do not appear to bugs I think you may have posted the wrong list. |
| 01:58 | <&McMartin> | Is opium improved by the tears of the innocent? |
| 02:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | Don't know. |
| 02:01 | <&McMartin> | Opium cabbages are *clearly* a bug |
| 02:01 | <&McMartin> | That said, what game is this |
| 02:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Clockwork Empires |
| 02:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which, if you're not already aware of it, is Dwarf Fortress Except Comprehensible by the guys who did Dungeons of Dredmor. |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | I was not |
| 02:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | The gaslamp blog has been putting up some excellent posts on the development process |
| 02:06 | <&McMartin> | "Cabbage? I love cabbage!" |
| 02:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | And the SA forums thread, which includes at least one devteam member, is at http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3503803 |
| 02:08 | <&McMartin> | ... god damn it Windows this is exactly the wrong part of Apple to start copying |
| 02:08 | <&McMartin> | GetVersionEx starts returing deliberately false values in Windows 8.1 unless you throw OS-specific flags |
| 02:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | what |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn302074.aspx |
| 02:20 | <&McMartin> | Basically, unless you put something in your executable metadata that says "hey, I know that 8.1 exists", it will lie and say it is 8.0. |
| 02:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | why |
| 02:21 | <&McMartin> | Apparently, because too many developers checked "version == x" rather than "version >= x" thus breaking gratuitously when there were upgrades, and MS has decided to stop letting them have nice things. |
| 02:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | To be fair, that is (a) really common and (b) really goddamn annoying |
| 02:22 | <&McMartin> | I mean, the docs are completely up front about this. |
| 02:22 | <&McMartin> | It's quite openly "You people are idiots, so you only get the safety scissors now" |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | Unfortunately, there are hilariously disastrous bugs that only occur on 8.1 in software we have to work next to, and I need to know the real OS version to know whether or not to deploy workarounds. |
| 02:24 | | * McMartin tries patching the metadata, let us see if that works. |
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| 02:57 | <&McMartin> | Man |
| 02:57 | <&McMartin> | I think I went through a thousand lines of C64-programming-related chat this week |
| 02:57 | <&McMartin> | I have no idea why this was C64 week. |
| 03:02 | < Vorntastic> | I just found myself randomly curious about something. |
| 03:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh? |
| 03:04 | < Vorntastic> | I was wondering how the c64 implements atan |
| 03:05 | < Vorntastic> | (Trying to explain c64 week) |
| 03:06 | <@Alek> | satan? |
| 03:06 | <&McMartin> | And at the same time, Nick Montfort started doing code golfing in C64 BASIC, trying to write 80-character one-line BASIC programs that did travesties of modern artists. |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | I took the opportunity to start digging into my multiple-block-relocation problem, which I ultimately did solve. |
| 03:07 | < Vorntastic> | Atan, as in arctangent, the inverse of the trigonometric tangent function. |
| 03:09 | < Vorntastic> | I still haven't dug into the ml for the atan function. |
| 03:09 | < [R]> | GOD FUCKING DAMNIT YOU PIECE OF FUCKING SHIT EXCUSE FOR AN OS |
| 03:10 | < [R]> | 3 MAJOR VERSIONS LATER AND YOU STILL CAN NOT REMEMBER SETTINGS? |
| 03:10 | < [R]> | No, I do not want to fucking update, I told you to not update anymore. |
| 03:11 | < [R]> | Tonight's rant brought to you by: the letter W, and co-sponsored by the number 8. |
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| 05:10 | <@Tarinaky> | [R]: Ah-ah-ah. One Windows. Two windows. Three windows... Ninty-five Windows. |
| 05:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | 99 minor bugs in the code / 99 minor bugs / code one out / release it about / 114 minor bugs in the code |
| 05:20 | <@Alek> | eeyep |
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| 14:32 | <@TheWatcher> | SO MUCH HATE for character encodings |
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| 15:00 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
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| 18:13 | < Harlow> | just wanted to bring this up because it might become a problem if the united states gets involved in Syria http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-twitter-aol-new-york-times-h ack-20130828,0,3319077.story |
| 18:19 | <@Tarinaky> | https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition |
| 18:21 | < Syka> | >Language Stats - Java: 100% |
| 18:21 | < Syka> | called it |
| 18:22 | < ErikMesoy> | FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition / src / main / java / com / seriouscompany / business / java / fizzbuzz / packagenamingpackage / interfaces / printers / IntegerPrinter.java |
| 18:22 | < ErikMesoy> | public interface IntegerPrinter {public void printInteger(int theInteger); } |
| 18:25 | <@Tamber> | Syka: > Enterprise |
| 18:29 | < ErikMesoy> | This is wonderful. "public static final int INTEGER_DIVIDE_ZERO_VALUE = 0;" because we shouldn't have magic numbers in our code to check for divide-by-zero errors. |
| 18:30 | <&Derakon> | Sure; what if the value of zero changed? |
| 18:32 | < ErikMesoy> | This code deserves its starship-like name: It should be sent into deep space with no prospect of returning to Earth in the foreseeable future. |
| 18:49 | <@Tarinaky> | No. |
| 18:49 | <@Tarinaky> | If an Alien finds it they might consider it an act of war. |
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| 20:47 | < harlow> | Whats the correct way to define in a header? #ifndef RESOURCE_HPP or #ifndef __RESOURCE_HPP__ |
| 21:02 | <@Tamber> | I've always seen it with the underscores. |
| 21:03 | <@Tamber> | I suspect the justification for that is that it's less likely to clash, name-wise, with something defined as part of the actual program code. (Though I'd say it's a little unlikely, unless you're naming your include guards very generically.) |
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| 21:08 | <@Tarinaky> | harlow: If you just want #include guards you can usually just use #pragma once |
| 21:09 | <@Tarinaky> | But there isn't a one true way of doing include guards, it's pretty much just a preprocessor hack. |
| 21:13 | <@TheWatcher[afk]> | The correct way is "whichever way [works for you|matches the pattern used in the rest of the code] |
| 21:13 | <@TheWatcher[afk]> | " |
| 21:13 | <@TheWatcher[afk]> | Also, I reiterate my character encoding hate |
| 21:14 | <@TheWatcher[afk]> | and ask who the fucking hell runs a fuckign website in fucking latin-1 in this ficking day and age? |
| 21:14 | <@Tamber> | Does it say "Best viewed with Netscape at 800x600"? |
| 21:14 | <@Tarinaky> | I imagine you already know exactly who. |
| 21:14 | <@TheWatcher[afk]> | I know! My department does, for their internal website, running of CentOS 5, and some geriatric version of php with no multibyte support! |
| 21:14 | <@Tarinaky> | Otherwise you're only 1 whois lookup from knowing exactly who. |
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| 21:16 | < Syka> | TheWatcher[afk]: colour me surprised that modern PHP even supports utf8 |
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| 21:18 | <@Tarinaky> | As far as I am aware, the only reasonable reason to not use UTF-8 is if the bulk of your data is going to be in Chinese or one of the languages where a single character can be built up by the addition of many sub-character symbols. |
| 21:18 | <@Namegduf> | I'm not really convinced that's reasonable, either. |
| 21:18 | <@Tarinaky> | Even then, one of the unicode character sets is the obvious choice if you're going to mix character sets. |
| 21:19 | <@Tarinaky> | Just maybe UTF-16 or UTF-32 instead. |
| 21:19 | | * Tamber sits in the "There is no reasonable reason not to use UTF-8. No. Never. Shush." camp. :) |
| 21:19 | <@Tamber> | But I don't deal with anything important, so I can safely be ignored. |
| 21:19 | <@Tarinaky> | Tamber: What's wrong with UTF-16? |
| 21:19 | <@Tamber> | There's nothing *wrong* with it, but why bother? |
| 21:20 | <@Tamber> | You'll still end up with ~2 octets per character, or so, anyway; right? |
| 21:20 | <@Tarinaky> | If you need to optimise on non-eurocentric assumptions? |
| 21:20 | <@Namegduf> | You don't. |
| 21:20 | <@Tarinaky> | And all the unicode character sets suck for characters built up from several sub-character marks. |
| 21:20 | <@Namegduf> | Text is trivially small in virtually all applications, anyway. |
| 21:20 | <@Tarinaky> | Although there are proposed solutions. |
| 21:20 | <@Namegduf> | It is also very compressable. |
| 21:21 | <@Namegduf> | And the difference between UTF-8 and the other probably disappears with compression. |
| 21:21 | <@Namegduf> | You should be using UTF-8 or compressed UTF-8. |
| 21:21 | <@Tarinaky> | Compression removes human readability. |
| 21:21 | <@Tamber> | If you're having to "optimise" by changing from UTF-8 to UTF-16, you damn well better have run out of other things to optimise. |
| 21:21 | <@Namegduf> | No it does not. |
| 21:22 | <@Namegduf> | You need a program to turn the file from a bunch of bytes into glyphs on a screen either way. Such a program can easily work with compressed data in the unlikely event you are dealing with such vast quantities of text that it is worth doing. |
| 21:23 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't think vi can do that without plugins, but I might be wrong. |
| 21:23 | <@Namegduf> | vi does not deal with such vast quantities of text it is worth doing. |
| 21:23 | <@TheWatcher> | Okay, I'll put it this way: there is no reasonable, sane, remotely acceptable reason to run any ISO-8859. |
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| 21:24 | <@Tamber> | If you seriously have so much text that you need to compress it; you'll make vi explode by trying to open it all in one go anyway. |
| 21:24 | <@Namegduf> | Text is *irrelevantly small* and you are introducing *massive compatibility and interoperability problems* by screwing with alternative formats. You do not do it to save a few hundred KB. |
| 21:24 | <@Tarinaky> | TheWatcher: What if you're sent back in time to the 1970s and have to use a computer to build a time machine to get back? |
| 21:25 | <@Tamber> | Then don't go back in time. |
| 21:25 | <@Tarinaky> | I will accept hitting me as a valid response to that question. |
| 21:25 | <@Namegduf> | Tarinaky: Counterfactual scenarions do not invalidate anything by their nature as counterfactual. |
| 21:25 | | * Tamber runs Tarinaky over with a fork-lift truck. |
| 21:26 | <@Namegduf> | This is a serious thing- people use this "but international stuff means use other formats anyway" to justify sticking with their non-standard crap, often Latin1. |
| 21:26 | <@Namegduf> | Or retaining multiple charset support, defaulting to something stupid like Latin1. |
| 21:26 | <@Namegduf> | It's wrong, and used primarily as a diversion to avoid fixing the real problem. |
| 21:27 | < ErikMesoy> | Future-proof your code the Enterprisey way: start the UTF-64 standard and reserve a 100-character block somewhere far out for a copy of the basic English alphabet and coding characters. |
| 21:27 | <@Namegduf> | If you have some system which needs to manipulate actual gigabytes of text, do something special involving compression or other internal stuff. If you are not that person, then UTF-8. Stop introducing massive compatibility problems to everything and justifying it as shaving off a few hundred KB for people in China. |
| 21:28 | < ErikMesoy> | I mean, what if the regular alphabet changes? You need your own alphabet you can depend on in a character range reserved for private usage! |
| 21:30 | < ErikMesoy> | Tarinaky: Curse you for linking the FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition. Now I'm going to have Enterprisey-ness in my head for a week. |
| 21:31 | <@Tarinaky> | Ha ha! Buisness! |
| 21:40 | < ErikMesoy> | "if (NumberIsMultipleOfAnotherNumberVerifier.numberIsMultipleOfAnotherNumber(theInte ger, FizzStrategyConstants.FIZZ_INTEGER_CONSTANT_VALUE))" or as normal programmers might put it, "if (i%3 == 0". |
| 21:40 | < ErikMesoy> | ) |
| 21:49 | < ErikMesoy> | Analogy: Having some bureau, department or organization that occasionally tests breakfast cereals for poisons is a public good. Having each shop test their own stock of breakfast cereal is possibly overcautious, but reasonable. Customers testing each box of breakfast cereal they buy is arguably paranoid. |
| 21:49 | < ErikMesoy> | A man who separately tests for poisons in each spoonful of breakfast cereal he scoops up? That's the EnterpriseFizzBuzz. |
| 21:53 | < [R]> | <Tarinaky> Tamber: What's wrong with UTF-16? <-- People assume UTF-8, so a bunch of things choke hard on it. It's also quite fat for storing english text and the BOM isn't always handled properly. |
| 21:56 | <@Namegduf> | One doesn't break with conventions on formats just because there's "nothing wrong" with your alternative. |
| 21:57 | <@Namegduf> | There would be "nothing wrong" per se with your own custom variation on UTF-8 which changed which bit was responsible for indicating whether the character was done. |
| 21:57 | <@Namegduf> | There would be a lot wrong with implementing and using it. |
| 21:57 | <@Tarinaky> | UTF-16 is just as much a standard as 8. |
| 21:58 | <@Tarinaky> | But this conversation bores me so... |
| 21:58 | <@Namegduf> | Either untrue, or insufficient to invalidate what I just said, depending on which definition of 'standard' you are using. |
| 22:00 | <@Namegduf> | You can pick a definition whereby the publication is enough and it doesn't require adoption as the 'standard'- but then it's insufficient. Or you can pick a definition where it needs to be an equally commonly accepted interchange format, which is enough to justify it as just as much a convention, but untrue. |
| 22:01 | <@Namegduf> | But have fun using UTF-16 for your input and output, needing format conversion to speak to anything else, and making people be annoyed at needing to worry about charset conversion in deploying things. |
| 22:16 | < [R]> | Someone released a line of shit-scented perfume. |
| 22:16 | < [R]> | http://i.imgur.com/HeGLvYf.jpg |
| 22:24 | <@froztbyte> | holy crap |
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| 22:44 | <@Tarinaky> | [R]: Pretty sure there's an actual shit scented perfume out there. |
| 22:45 | <@Tarinaky> | The molecules involved are neither difficult to synthesis or required in large quantities~ |
| 22:45 | <@Tarinaky> | Insert joke about 'toilet water' here. |
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| --- Log closed Sun Sep 15 00:00:53 2013 |