| --- Log opened Sat Sep 07 00:00:02 2013 |
| 00:00 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:01 | < Xon> | McMartin, I like that a lot of C# uses zero-length array rather than returning null. limitations of the foreach & built in iterators make dealing with nulls anoying =p |
| 00:01 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 00:02 | <&McMartin> | This is one of the few language stumbles I blame LISP for inflicting on the rest of the universe |
| 00:02 | <&McMartin> | Since NIL and '() were mostly the same thing |
| 00:02 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
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| 00:09 | <@Namegduf> | I really should remind myself of how C# managed to get a foreach that was significantly slower than a for look with iterator. |
| 00:09 | <@Namegduf> | I vaguely recall it had to do with generics and something making them hard to optimise. |
| 00:09 | <&McMartin> | Hrm |
| 00:10 | <&McMartin> | I'm talking through my hat here, but maybe the foreach has to do the downcast each time and the for loop can know the object layout in advance? |
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| 00:11 | <@Namegduf> | Could be something like that. Apparently it is supposed to detect where it is iterating over an array statically, but for lists it doesn't seem to be able to. |
| 00:11 | <@Namegduf> | Presumably because lists can be inherited from. |
| 00:11 | <@Namegduf> | http://blogs.msdn.com/b/kevin_ransom/archive/2004/04/19/116072.aspx <- This is someone talking about how with arrays it is fast. |
| 00:12 | <@Namegduf> | By lists I mean, their list type. |
| 00:12 | <@Namegduf> | Which is array-backed. |
| 00:12 | | * McMartin nods |
| 00:13 | <&McMartin> | Isn't there a LinkedList, too? |
| 00:13 | <@Namegduf> | Probably, but there's also a List |
| 00:13 | <@Namegduf> | Which is *not* an interface, that's IList |
| 00:13 | <@Namegduf> | There may be an ArrayList like Java, but I don't recall. |
| 00:13 | <&McMartin> | Oh right |
| 00:14 | <@Azash> | 01:09 -!- Irssi: Join to #channelname was synced in 329 secs |
| 00:14 | <@Azash> | Hetzneeeeeer |
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| 00:16 | <@Namegduf> | It was particularly obnoxious because I was coming from Go, where for k, v := range slice { ... } is a somewhat faster version of the for loop because it doesn't need to do bounds checking on getting the k. |
| 00:17 | <@Namegduf> | Er, the v. |
| 00:17 | <@Namegduf> | The k should be an i there. |
| 00:17 | | * McMartin nods |
| 00:17 | <@Namegduf> | So... "This is your built-in iteration syntax. You can optimise it. Why is it *slower*?" |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | I haven't used Go since shortly after its initial release. |
| 00:17 | <@Namegduf> | But then I found use of LINQ and I had far more salient criticisms. |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | Linq has its moments~ |
| 00:17 | | * Namegduf ended up purging at least almost all the LINQ for performance reasons |
| 00:18 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, Linq's moments are restricted to points where you need to break the type system to make the implementation a tenth the size it would otherwise be. |
| 00:19 | <@Namegduf> | I can understand that. |
| 00:19 | | * McMartin files Linq (and the "var" type in general) with "reasons that C# is better than Java", but I freely admit there's a "with great power comes great responsibility" in there. |
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| 00:20 | <&McMartin> | If you've phrased it *just so* then *in theory* a powerful type analysis could optimize it down to equivalent code |
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| 00:20 | <@Namegduf> | I've never observed it to happen. |
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| 00:20 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I'm not sure if the compiler does it |
| 00:20 | <@Namegduf> | Maybe that works if you're using arrays. |
| 00:20 | <&McMartin> | Also, this is one of those cases where you might as well think through your Linq query "out loud" by which I mean "write out what it would be, optimized" |
| 00:20 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah. |
| 00:21 | <@Namegduf> | I'm not a huge fan of the C# approach to exceptions. |
| 00:21 | <&McMartin> | Compared to...? |
| 00:21 | <@Namegduf> | Java. |
| 00:21 | <&McMartin> | ...what are the salient differences? |
| 00:21 | <@Namegduf> | Java tells you what exceptions things are going to throw. |
| 00:21 | <&McMartin> | Oh |
| 00:21 | <@Namegduf> | C# not only doesn't mandate it in the language, it doesn't in documentation for .NET, either. |
| 00:22 | <&McMartin> | Er, wat? |
| 00:22 | <&McMartin> | There's a throws clause in the msdn docs at least. |
| 00:22 | <&McMartin> | Or do you mean "people are allowed to not give a full list when they doc stuff" |
| 00:22 | <@Namegduf> | The MSDN docs are pretty incomplete. |
| 00:22 | <&McMartin> | I think that does follow consensus, though; checked exceptions ended up being on the "more trouble than it's worth" list. |
| 00:23 | <&McMartin> | (Java only sort of tells you this) |
| 00:23 | <@Namegduf> | Did you know, by the way, that UDP sockets in .NET sometimes throw exceptions on read if a write recently failed? |
| 00:24 | <@Namegduf> | Because if you're using a shared socket between multiple endpoints, you need to know about that so you don't, say, close the whole socket because one write failed. |
| 00:24 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 00:24 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, C#'s async stuff is wacky |
| 00:24 | <&McMartin> | It's *consistent*, but it's kind of wacky |
| 00:25 | <@Namegduf> | This isn't so much async as MS deciding to "helpfully" provide you with notification of the write errors it can detect. |
| 00:25 | <@Namegduf> | I forget the rationale for using read to do it, there was some reason write wouldn't work. |
| 00:25 | <@Namegduf> | I think. |
| 00:25 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I think "using read" is like the async case. |
| 00:25 | <&McMartin> | Where the exception is thrown by Join() or things equivalent to it. |
| 00:26 | <@Namegduf> | Both use a pair of Begin* and End* calls for async, but maybe the implementation's details cause this. |
| 00:26 | <&McMartin> | It makes sense if you look at it sideways - "I want the result of this!" "Uh, it terminated with an exception. Here's your exception!" |
| 00:26 | <@Namegduf> | That's what EndWrite is for. |
| 00:26 | <@Namegduf> | And where everything else raises its write exceptions. |
| 00:27 | | * McMartin nods |
| 00:27 | <@Namegduf> | Except these UDP sockets do it on EndRead- or as I discovered later, *sometimes* BeginRead. |
| 00:27 | <@Namegduf> | I think maybe BeginRead starting in only recent versions of .NET. |
| 00:27 | <@Namegduf> | It's not like any of this shit is documented. |
| 00:28 | <@Namegduf> | Aside by people who figured it out answering questions to other people. |
| 00:29 | <@Namegduf> | It might be BeginRecv or something like that for UDP. Read/Write are the stream ones and the ones I've worked with most. |
| 00:29 | <@Namegduf> | But there's definitely the pair of pairs. |
| 00:30 | | * McMartin nods |
| 00:30 | <&McMartin> | I haven't done a lot of C# work, really, mostly just WinForms wrapping P/Invoke |
| 00:30 | <@Namegduf> | Ug, WinForms. |
| 00:31 | <@Namegduf> | My favourite delightful WinForms feature is one they baked into the synchronisation stuff at a low level. |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | I've used worse >_> |
| 00:31 | <@Namegduf> | It is that if your UI thread blocks on a mutex, it will *re-enter the message queue*. |
| 00:32 | <@Namegduf> | What parts of the stdlib use mutexes? Undocumented! What other synchronisation primitives do it, I don't recall, but there are some. |
| 00:32 | <@Namegduf> | You don't want it blocking long, but that particular piece of madness means if it blocks at all your program can break if the message handlers aren't reentrant. |
| 00:32 | <@Namegduf> | You can, thankfully, turn it off, in addition to avoiding all blocking that you know about. |
| 00:34 | < Xon> | McMartin, C# var is just syntax sugar |
| 00:35 | <&McMartin> | Xon: Well, the part I'm unclear on is whether it sugars a type analysis (like C++11's auto) or if it sugars reflective access to objects |
| 00:35 | <&McMartin> | The latter is super-slow, the former is as fast as anything else |
| 00:35 | < Xon> | it's compile time syntax sugar |
| 00:35 | <@Namegduf> | It's just inference from the initialiser, I think. |
| 00:35 | <@Namegduf> | var foo = bar; gives foo the type of bar. |
| 00:36 | < Xon> | it tells the compiler to infer the type from the right-hand side |
| 00:36 | <&McMartin> | OK, that's fine then |
| 00:36 | < Xon> | if you decompile the resulting code, it's indistingusable to writing it out normally |
| 00:36 | <&McMartin> | I think I'm thinking of "dynamic" |
| 00:36 | < Xon> | yeah |
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| 00:37 | < Xon> | also, the anonymous types linq spits ou are also compile-time syntax sugar. |
| 00:37 | <@Namegduf> | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4540244/how-is-this-possible-onpaint-processe d-while-in-waitone |
| 00:37 | <@Namegduf> | ^ Here we go. |
| 00:37 | <@Namegduf> | It took a little determined googling to find this most excellently documented attribute of C#. |
| 00:37 | < Xon> | > Namegduf ended up purging at least almost all the LINQ for performance reasons |
| 00:37 | < Xon> | what type of performance issues where you having? |
| 00:38 | < Xon> | besides the fact it is really really easy to iterate over arrays in a very expensive fashion without realising |
| 00:39 | < Xon> | Namegduf, it's actually documented somewhere that the built-in threading blocking will pump messages |
| 00:39 | <@Namegduf> | The type where it takes too long to run and the profiler says "well here's your problem, the actual loop where you loop over the huge list of objects with a where clause, possibly joining it to itself for pairs, to process them is actually slowass in itself" |
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| 00:39 | <@Namegduf> | Xon: Yes, "somewhere". |
| 00:39 | <@Azash> | Public service announcement: Fucking Hetzner |
| 00:39 | <@Namegduf> | It's certainly written on the MSDN website. |
| 00:39 | <@Namegduf> | However I couldn't find it with Google. |
| 00:39 | < Xon> | haha |
| 00:39 | <@Namegduf> | I remember reading it sometime after I learned about it. |
| 00:39 | <@Namegduf> | "The CLR ensures blocking can't cause deadlock by pumping a message loop when you use the lock statement or call the Wait method of the synchronization classes. Or Thread.Join(). That message loop dispatches the WM_PAINT message, causing the Paint event to run." |
| 00:39 | <@Azash> | All my autojoins and layout are from circa 2012 |
| 00:40 | <@Namegduf> | It's so you can paint while you paint |
| 00:40 | | * Azash postpones fixing this out of annoyance |
| 00:40 | <@Namegduf> | You can turn it off |
| 00:41 | <@Namegduf> | I have like a 20 line comment about it describing it at length and calling the people responsible names for making it "impossible to make good code out of a desire to make bad code fail less often", above a line turning it off |
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| 01:45 | < simon_> | I'm trying to find a syntax error in the following code: https://gist.github.com/sshine/0c7c3bcc1560279530da |
| 01:45 | < simon_> | I'm getting the following typical error: |
| 01:45 | < simon_> | File "/tmp/emacs-region23537_xo", line 149, characters 0-1: |
| 01:45 | < simon_> | ! <EOF> |
| 01:45 | < simon_> | ! ^^^^^ |
| 01:45 | < simon_> | ! Syntax error. |
| 01:46 | < simon_> | it suggests that I'm missing a parenthesis or "end" tag, I suppose... except when I place any at the bottom, it just says mismatched parens. |
| 01:46 | <&McMartin> | Probably failing to close a here document, string, or comment? |
| 01:46 | < Syka_> | check your brackets |
| 01:46 | < Syka_> | yes you are missing parens |
| 01:46 | < simon_> | yeah! exactly my thought. can't find it. |
| 01:46 | < Syka_> | time for parens counting |
| 01:47 | | * simon_ does some binary searching by commenting out half the document. |
| 01:47 | <&McMartin> | drawcircle looks wrong to me. |
| 01:47 | <&McMartin> | But I have never written SML code. |
| 01:47 | <&McMartin> | But your let-clause has no in-clause. |
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| 01:48 | < simon_> | ahhh |
| 01:48 | < simon_> | thanks. |
| 01:48 | < simon_> | I'd just found it when you said so. |
| 01:48 | | * simon_ shouldn't be coding this late. |
| 01:48 | < simon_> | it's just left unfinished. |
| 01:48 | < simon_> | amazing the parser doesn't give me a more precise error message. |
| 01:49 | <&McMartin> | ... oh shit -_- |
| 01:49 | <&McMartin> | How much of that is because the rest of the code is definitions |
| 01:49 | <&McMartin> | viz., stuff that goes in a let clause |
| 01:50 | < simon_> | ahhh |
| 01:50 | < simon_> | yeah, right... |
| 01:50 | <&McMartin> | Still, one would expect at least "expected: definition or IN" |
| 01:50 | < simon_> | but it could at least have said "let-expression never finished, started on line X" |
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| 01:50 | < simon_> | yeah. at least that. |
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| 01:54 | | * simon_ is working on a small adventure game using SDL in Standard ML. |
| 01:54 | <&McMartin> | So I gathered from the title |
| 01:55 | < simon_> | a friend made some SDL bindings for Moscow ML. they're pretty C-ish, so they do need some higher-level library. |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | Graphical adventure, I assume |
| 01:55 | < simon_> | I haven't really figured it out yet... just trying to impress the students I TA for... it seems starting out university life using SML can be kind of dull, and then suddenly you get to Java with its wonderful access to drawing functions. |
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| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | One of the big things that the BASICS of old had going for them were the drawing functions |
| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | And if it wasn't BASIC it was LOGO |
| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | This really should be a core part of REPLs -_- |
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| 01:56 | < simon_> | so... I made a blackjack game with someone yesterday, and today I've made this. I plan to make a space shooter like asteroids/platform thing |
| 01:57 | <&McMartin> | Because it's The Part People Like Doing. |
| 01:57 | <&McMartin> | Oooh |
| 01:57 | <&McMartin> | Platform mechanics are tricky. |
| 01:57 | < simon_> | a side-scroller, I meant |
| 01:57 | <&McMartin> | You may want to run that past me if you go into it to get the controls properly |
| 01:57 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 01:57 | <&McMartin> | There's a bunch of things that make things a bit unpleasant if you aren't looking for it |
| 01:57 | < simon_> | you mean if I want the background to move as well? |
| 01:58 | < simon_> | (and not just spawn space ships at the edge once in a while) |
| 01:58 | <&McMartin> | No, I mean like "if you want the character to feel right when they do things like jump with low ceilings" |
| 01:58 | < simon_> | ahhh |
| 01:59 | <&McMartin> | Because it's surprisingly tricky to get right; otherwise the dude can get stuck or have his path hitch |
| 01:59 | <&McMartin> | Monocle will have a similar set of demonstrations >_> |
| 02:00 | <&McMartin> | But Monocle is based much more heavily on animation and collisions &c |
| 02:00 | < simon_> | oh, okay. |
| 02:00 | < simon_> | I haven't even thought about that. |
| 02:00 | <&McMartin> | Anyway |
| 02:00 | <&McMartin> | On that end, I did a bunch of homework for it last year~ |
| 02:00 | <&McMartin> | So that means I still have the notes, but have to dig it up |
| 02:01 | < simon_> | right now I'm pretty intent on making my seen-from-the-top adventure game feature scrolling maps and field-of-view. |
| 02:01 | | * McMartin nods |
| 02:01 | < simon_> | ok :) |
| 02:01 | <&McMartin> | Ah, Zelda-like? |
| 02:01 | < simon_> | yes! |
| 02:01 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that's much easier to spec out. |
| 02:01 | < simon_> | (I never played Zelda, but people told me it was a Zelda-like when they saw the demo today) |
| 02:01 | | * McMartin nods |
| 02:01 | <&McMartin> | There's a f2p MMO-ish thing called Spiral Knights with similar gameplay, though 3D rendered. |
| 02:02 | <&McMartin> | The SNES Zelda - "A Link to the Past" - is widely considered to be one of the classics. |
| 02:02 | <&McMartin> | The NES predecessors are both viewed with some skepticism at this point |
| 02:05 | < simon_> | https://github.com/sshine/sml-games/blob/master/sdl-adventure/sdl-adventure.png -- still quite silly :) |
| 02:06 | <&McMartin> | http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/10/9727/Zelda-NES.jpg |
| 02:06 | < simon_> | I've made these things once before, only now about to add features I haven't implemented before. I'm still curious if functional programming will make me happy here. |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | I'll be interested to see how it goes - this is one of the very few places I consider OO to have a large advantage |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | And since Monocle is designed to be a C-y as possible I've been trying to design around that~ |
| 02:07 | < simon_> | got a screenshot? |
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| 02:14 | < simon_> | McMartin, are you behind the game at http://www.monoclegame.com/ ? |
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| 02:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | simon_: doubt it. Project Monocle is something completely different. |
| 02:22 | < simon_> | oh. |
| 02:22 | < simon_> | here's a funny hack that only works in Moscow ML: |
| 02:23 | < simon_> | fun safe_hd [] = NONE | safe_hd (x::xs) = SOME x (* this is quite legal *) |
| 02:24 | < simon_> | fun safe_hd (x : 'a list) : 'a option = Obj.magic x (* Obj.magic : 'a -> 'b. it abuses internals *) |
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| 02:27 | | * simon_ thought of adjusting game mechanics based on the computer's time, i.e. low FOV during night, some monsters available at night, sort of like Minecraft, but with "real" time. |
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| 03:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | nethack does a bit of that |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | simon_: https://github.com/michaelcmartin/monocle |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | And no, Monocle the game isn't me |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | The game Monocle was designed for is tentatively named "Dapper Delver" |
| 03:10 | < simon_> | ToxicFrog, someone told me that once today already ;) |
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| 08:13 | < jeroud> | McMartin: Wrapped monocle doesn't work on OSX (and maybe other systems) because you can't necessarily have SDL replace main(). |
| 08:21 | <&McMartin> | jeroud: This is a problem the eventual shift to SDL2 will fix |
| 08:21 | <&McMartin> | (It's basically only OSX) |
| 08:21 | <&McMartin> | There are ways to get around it with Gambit Scheme, at least |
| 08:22 | <&McMartin> | And, I mean, there are ways around it elsewhere too; pygame managed it |
| 08:25 | < jeroud> | I looked at pygame's solution. It's a horrible mess of Objective-C. |
| 08:27 | < jeroud> | Anyway, that's the kind of thing that should probably live in monocle rather than the wrapper. |
| 08:29 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, and in practice it ends up living in SDL itself. |
| 08:30 | <&McMartin> | SDL2 changes the requirements on this so that it can handle that |
| 08:30 | <&McMartin> | I haven't yet decided what I'm doing about taht. |
| 08:30 | <&McMartin> | I don't have a strong reason at present to just do SDL forwarding |
| 08:31 | < jeroud> | Anyway, I'm going to stop wrapping monocle for now. |
| 08:32 | < jeroud> | (I actually only spent a couple of hours on it a week or so ago.) |
| 08:32 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, uh, the API isn't very stable yet |
| 08:33 | <&McMartin> | I'm being design-stymied by the fact that there are kind of two event loops that aren't necessarily related. |
| 08:33 | <&McMartin> | (What's your target language here?) |
| 08:42 | < jeroud> | Python. |
| 08:43 | < jeroud> | I don't mind an unstable API. I'm mostly doing this to play with things. |
| 09:11 | <&jerith> | McMartin: Are you going to ship bindings for another language with monocle? |
| 09:12 | <&jerith> | (It might be a good idea, if only to have tests for all the things.) |
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| 09:48 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that's the plan |
| 09:48 | <&McMartin> | But not until I'm happy with the bindings to, well, C |
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| 10:31 | | * TheWatcher readsup, intends to try a perl binding for it, when he isn't hammering out insane amounts of code a day for work ;.; |
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| 12:58 | | mode/#code [+o Kindamoody] by ChanServ |
| 13:02 | < AnnoDomini> | Hmm. Is there some sort of multi-platform reminder software? I'm looking for something like kAlarm or Kazaa Reminder, only if it could run on both Linux and Windows and could use the same settings/data files. |
| 13:19 | < xybre> | AnnoDomini: Just look for something that can sync with Google Calendar |
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| 13:55 | <@gnolam> | Kazaa. Now there's a word I haven't read in a while. |
| 14:02 | <~Vornicus> | So you know it? |
| 14:32 | < AnnoDomini> | Er, *Kanaa. |
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| 14:50 | | thalass [thalass@Nightstar-ecf59cc1.bigpond.net.au] has quit [[NS] Quit: Stupid meatbags. ] |
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| 18:05 | <@Azash> | <noscript> Your browser does not have <a href="help/help_javascript.asp" target="popuphelp" onclick="wopen('help/help_javascript.asp', 400, 460); return false;" onkeypress="wopen('help/help_javascript.asp', 400, 460); return false;" title ="JavaScript info (launches new window)">JavaScript</a> enabled. </noscript> |
| 18:12 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 18:13 | <@Tamber> | ... |
| 18:13 | | * Azash eyes this part of JS code: "Math.sqrt(Math.random(seed)*Math.random(seed))" |
| 18:17 | < ErikMesoy> | Don't do that. |
| 18:19 | <@Azash> | ErikMesoy: Not my code |
| 18:19 | <@Azash> | My hands are washed with bleach |
| 18:19 | < ErikMesoy> | I feel obliged to say it anyway. |
| 18:24 | < Moltare> | Couldn't do that if I wanted to |
| 18:24 | < Moltare> | well, not in that manner |
| 18:24 | < Moltare> | Runescript doesn't have sqrt |
| 18:24 | < Moltare> | >_> |
| 18:25 | <@Azash> | Haha |
| 18:30 | < ErikMesoy> | Does it have **0.5 ? |
| 18:31 | < Moltare> | Doesn't have any means of raising to a power. |
| 18:31 | < Moltare> | Also doesn't have "0.5" |
| 18:32 | < ErikMesoy> | Haha |
| 18:35 | <@Azash> | Oh lordy |
| 18:35 | <@Azash> | Binary search |
| 18:43 | < [R]> | What's that do for the randomness/range and why should on not do that? |
| 18:44 | <@Azash> | [R]: Because of the seed param it always returns the same thing |
| 18:44 | <@Azash> | Essentially making it sqrt(x^2) |
| 18:44 | < [R]> | Uhh |
| 18:44 | < [R]> | Oh right |
| 18:45 | < ErikMesoy> | Even with different seeds, you still shouldn't do that. Imagine the linear version: (Math.random()+Math.random())/2 |
| 18:46 | < [R]> | That's a bellcurve though, sometimes you want that. |
| 18:47 | < ErikMesoy> | Yeah, but seeing the equivalent of (2d6/2) makes me suspicious as to what the writer was thinking. |
| 18:48 | < ErikMesoy> | I'm picking on code smell now, rather than the sheer do-nothingness of the original. *shrug* |
| 18:48 | < ktemkin> | No to mention that Math.random isn't supposed to take an argument. >.> |
| 18:50 | < [R]> | Yeah, V8 ignores it AFAICT, as does spidermonkey. |
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| 21:15 | <@Azash> | http://i.imgur.com/F9GLCJd.png |
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| --- Log closed Sun Sep 08 00:00:18 2013 |