| --- Log opened Tue Aug 20 00:00:15 2013 |
| 00:10 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:24 | | ktemkin[awol] is now known as ktemkin[pcb] |
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| 01:08 | < RoboCop2> | so there i was surrounded by naked men and penguins...needless to say thats the last time i answered an ad on cragslist for a free couch |
| 01:09 | <@Tamber> | o.รด |
| 01:10 | < RoboCop2> | so i take it this has never happened to anyone else |
| 01:10 | <@Tamber> | Can't say it has, no. |
| 01:10 | < RoboCop2> | eh whatta shame |
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| 01:32 | < Azash> | That sounds like the local FSF chapter |
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| 01:47 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 01:49 | < Azash> | Mikko Hypponen |
| 01:49 | < Azash> | COPY \windows\system32\cmd.exe \windows\system32\sethc.exe |
| 01:49 | < Azash> | Reboot, hit Shift key 5 times, SYSTEM shell will pop up. |
| 01:52 | <@gnolam> | ? |
| 01:53 | < Azash> | gnolam: Replacing the sticky keys binary with cmd.exe |
| 01:53 | <@gnolam> | And? |
| 01:53 | < Azash> | Apparently sticky keys is run as SYSTEM |
| 01:56 | <@gnolam> | Users with admin access can change system behavior. Film at 11. |
| 01:57 | <&McMartin> | The admin/SYSTEM split on windows is a reliability feature, not a security feature. |
| 01:57 | < Azash> | Eh, I just thought it was interesting |
| 01:57 | < Azash> | Sorry |
| 01:58 | <&McMartin> | It is a cute trick |
| 01:58 | <&McMartin> | And a good demo for "why not to trust in this" |
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| 02:02 | <@Reiv> | That is indeed interesting. |
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| 02:50 | | * Derakon sighs at the Angband forums, wherein a player is basically saying "The dev team sucks. They should just not change anything." and everyone else is saying "Feel free to play an older version, or to actually get off your ass and code the changes you want." |
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| 07:00 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 07:35 | < Syka> | heh |
| 07:35 | < Syka> | i have so many movies in my backlog that i might have to do a McMartin, but with them instead :p |
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| 08:11 | <&McMartin> | Speaking of which, just wrapped up another graphic adventure~ |
| 08:11 | <&McMartin> | Now I have to speedrun it for the director's commentary tracks~ |
| 08:13 | < Syka> | ive been playing blood dragon |
| 08:13 | < Syka> | fc3: blood dragon, that is |
| 08:14 | < Reiver> | you beat games way too fast, McMartin |
| 08:15 | < Syka> | also |
| 08:15 | < Syka> | i got an intel nuc |
| 08:15 | < Syka> | when i open the box, it makes the intel jingle |
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| 10:04 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[d00m] |
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| 10:51 | < AnnoDomini> | TheWatcher[d00m]: I'm running into a problem on the Deathcookie boards. When I try to post an [img], it complains about not being able to determine the dimensions. This happens for images from three different places, and I don't think all of them disallow external links. |
| 10:54 | < AnnoDomini> | Nevermind. I have solved this by removing limits on image sizes. |
| 11:04 | <&McMartin> | Reiver: these games are like 2-3 hours each |
| 11:05 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has joined #code |
| 11:05 | <&McMartin> | ... also the developers have a Wizard of Oz Noir game on Steam |
| 11:05 | < RichyB> | Derakon[AFK], hehehe, everybody tell that player to "Go fork, yourself." |
| 11:05 | <&McMartin> | I'm not sure if Wizard of Oz Noir is the greatest or the most terrible thing ever |
| 11:08 | < RichyB> | It can't be the greatest; the greatest is Alice in Wonderland Noir. |
| 11:08 | <&McMartin> | Thus, by unassailable logic, it is the most terrible thing ever. |
| 11:09 | <&McMartin> | Also, it's the fourth game, and I've finally warmed up to the main character. -_- |
| 11:11 | < Syka> | http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130818120421175 |
| 11:11 | < Syka> | groklaw is gone for good |
| 11:16 | | * McMartin mutters a little at this |
| 11:16 | <&McMartin> | Not that I'd want to enhance the paranoia |
| 11:16 | <&McMartin> | But if you're *in* America, setting up servers outside of the US to conduct your business is setting yourself in the position where US surveilliance has had free reign for seventy years |
| 11:16 | <&McMartin> | Like, on purpose |
| 11:16 | <&McMartin> | That is *inviting* surveilliance |
| 11:17 | < RichyB> | Argh, people, the situation isn't *that* dire. |
| 11:18 | < RichyB> | "Secure email service" is indeed factually a thing that is not possible to run in the real world right now. |
| 11:18 | <&McMartin> | Also, if you are in the US, doing your email through Switzerland is making your problem worse |
| 11:18 | <&McMartin> | Like, that is, if you are an American, less secure than using Gmail |
| 11:18 | < RichyB> | "Email whose contents are unreadable by strangers" is not. Seriously, not even a little bit. |
| 11:18 | <&McMartin> | (If you are *German*, this is a wildly different story.) |
| 11:19 | < RichyB> | Things like lavabit are broken because they try to violate the end-to-end principle in communications, not because all notion of confidentiality is fundamentally impossible forever. |
| 11:19 | <&McMartin> | What, exactly, was Lavabit's value proposition? |
| 11:20 | <&McMartin> | I was honestly unclear on what they claimed to be doing that was an improvement over, or that did not require, encrypting the email before it ever touched their servers |
| 11:20 | < RichyB> | I haven't got a clue. |
| 11:20 | <&McMartin> | I have a theory over what they were ordered to do, as it happens, |
| 11:20 | <&McMartin> | but it's about 90% speculation |
| 11:20 | < RichyB> | There's all this hand-wringing over the idea that "secure email services are impossible because of spying" but for the love of Pete, "secure email service" is impossible because it's a broken idea. |
| 11:21 | <&McMartin> | We're past that, incidentally |
| 11:21 | <&McMartin> | We aren't at "secure email services are impossible because of spying." |
| 11:21 | <&McMartin> | The freakout is at "secure email services are impossible because of subpoenas." |
| 11:21 | < RichyB> | Hmmm. |
| 11:21 | < RichyB> | Meh. |
| 11:22 | <&McMartin> | I have nothing remotely polite to say about that |
| 11:22 | <&McMartin> | It takes incredible effort to not use the word "lolbertarian" while so doing |
| 11:22 | < RichyB> | They're vulnerable to subpoenas because and only because they try to violate the end-to-end principle. |
| 11:22 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 11:22 | <&McMartin> | This is where my theory comes in |
| 11:23 | <&McMartin> | I think companies that store encrypted data that they don't have the keys to are getting very unfriendly visits from men in suits, unless they are also generic file storage places |
| 11:23 | < RichyB> | The extreme point here is that even end-to-end won't help when there's a law (in the UK there is right now) that says that a court may compel you to hand over encryption keys. |
| 11:23 | <&McMartin> | And maybe even then. Storing encrypted files in Dropbox is a violation of the TOS |
| 11:23 | <&McMartin> | Yep |
| 11:24 | <&McMartin> | And if that's because it's material that a court can compel you to turn over by the normal rules for that, that "shouldn't" be an issue |
| 11:24 | <&McMartin> | Try to use technology to do an endrun about what the law says is "discoverable" and lo and behold they suddenly remember they have the monopoly on the legitimate first use of physical force, funny that |
| 11:24 | <&McMartin> | Therefore, all Western democracies are fascism |
| 11:24 | < Syka> | yaaay |
| 11:25 | <&McMartin> | So, yeah |
| 11:25 | <&McMartin> | lolbertarians |
| 11:25 | <&McMartin> | I still want Lavabit's gag order rescinded, because I want to know what they were asked to do. |
| 11:25 | < Syka> | well, it's fairly obvious what they were asked to do |
| 11:26 | <&McMartin> | Well, no, not really; I can come up with various versions |
| 11:26 | < Syka> | there's not much else that lavabit could do other than "spy for us" |
| 11:26 | <&McMartin> | What does that mean in this context? |
| 11:26 | < Syka> | it doesn't matter; it's all fucking horrible |
| 11:26 | < Syka> | he said he's delivered on subpoenas before, and that's fine |
| 11:27 | < Syka> | but this wasn't a subpoena |
| 11:27 | < Syka> | it was a NSL |
| 11:27 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 11:27 | < Syka> | which is basically "you are now an instrument of the NSA" |
| 11:27 | <&McMartin> | Right, so |
| 11:27 | <&McMartin> | I'm in the Valley |
| 11:27 | <&McMartin> | Some of the stuff alleged you couldn't keep quiet with death squads |
| 11:28 | < Syka> | but you probably could, with enough money :p |
| 11:28 | < Syka> | (plus death squads, naturally) |
| 11:28 | <&McMartin> | I honestly don't think you could. The "negative space" would be too damn big. |
| 11:28 | <&McMartin> | Tap the backbones? Sure, easy |
| 11:28 | <&McMartin> | But that doesn't help you with lavabit, presumably |
| 11:28 | < Syka> | McMartin: the general public doesn't know what the next /iphone/ will look like until a month beforehand |
| 11:29 | <&McMartin> | Yes. |
| 11:29 | <&McMartin> | That is a small secret |
| 11:29 | <&McMartin> | This is a conspiracy of every IT tech in Silicon Valley |
| 11:29 | <&McMartin> | They just aren't that organized ;-) |
| 11:30 | <&McMartin> | My guess is that the NSL was to reorganize their internals so that they could be subject to automated requests. |
| 11:30 | <&McMartin> | Because if the issue were subpoenas they wouldn't bother with NSLs, they'd just hold them openly in contempt of court |
| 11:30 | < Syka> | well |
| 11:30 | < Syka> | considering that encryption == foreign to the NSA |
| 11:30 | < Syka> | I think it's more wholesale "give us everything" |
| 11:31 | < Syka> | since theyre apparently holding encrypted emails for 5 years |
| 11:31 | <&McMartin> | If we believe the rest of the reports, they don't need Lavabit's cooperation for that |
| 11:31 | <&McMartin> | They can simply tap the ISPs leading in. |
| 11:31 | <&McMartin> | The one thing you can never hide is routing information |
| 11:31 | < Syka> | not if it's lavabit -> lavabit |
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| 11:32 | < Xon> | McMartin, due to how the encrypted emails work lavabit needed to basicly compromise thier end-users with social attacks |
| 11:33 | <&McMartin> | Yes, this is where my "what exactly are they doing that is not just encryption on the endpoint" |
| 11:33 | <&McMartin> | question comes in |
| 11:33 | <&McMartin> | Because ultimately, the message has to go in, and it has to be read |
| 11:33 | <&McMartin> | Those involve data going to or from the LB servers |
| 11:33 | <&McMartin> | That is where SIGINT gets to dance to play |
| 11:33 | <&McMartin> | *dance and play |
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| 11:34 | < Xon> | the contents can still be encrypted even if the header information isn't |
| 11:34 | <&McMartin> | Sure |
| 11:34 | <&McMartin> | But lavabit *should not have those keys* |
| 11:34 | < Xon> | exactly |
| 11:34 | < Xon> | they didn't |
| 11:34 | <&McMartin> | I do not believe it is yet officially illegal in the US to set up a server in that way |
| 11:34 | < Xon> | at least as far as the service description used to before they closed shop |
| 11:35 | < Xon> | McMartin, changing an IP address to evad an ipban is now illegal accouring to US courts |
| 11:35 | <&McMartin> | (Though I strongly suspect that, like the UK, a court can compel the recipient to give up the keys if the court believes it has a right to the document) |
| 11:36 | <&McMartin> | Right, but if lavabit doesn't have the keys |
| 11:36 | <&McMartin> | The question of "what, exactly, is being asked for that would take an NSL to get" remains unanswered |
| 11:36 | < Syka> | okay so |
| 11:36 | <&McMartin> | Because the "obvious" answers are either things Lavabit is known to not have, or things that you can get with nonsecret means |
| 11:36 | < Syka> | what if lavabit compromised themselves |
| 11:36 | < Syka> | surely there are ways they can make it easier |
| 11:37 | <&McMartin> | I don't know enough about them to say =/ |
| 11:37 | < Xon> | also, holy fuck am I going to have to get a new job. someone @ work is seriously arguing for a completely new set of public rest endpoint APIs so they can continue to throw away authentication tokens on the api's marked anoymous despite both sets /needing/ to return exactly the same set of data |
| 11:37 | < Syka> | the emails have to be unencrypted coming in and out |
| 11:37 | < Syka> | so unless theyre GPGing them, there you go |
| 11:37 | <&McMartin> | ACK |
| 11:37 | <&McMartin> | If they're unencrypted in/out, they're providing nothing >_< |
| 11:38 | < Syka> | ...you know that literally nobody except for gmail has encrypted transport, right? |
| 11:38 | <&McMartin> | If they're just automating the GPG stuff on the client side, then you ought to be able to upload the entire server contents to dropbox without a problem |
| 11:38 | < Syka> | AOL, Microsoft and Yahoo ONLY ACCEPT unencrypted emails |
| 11:38 | < Reiver> | Why on earth would you leave it unenrypted in/out? |
| 11:38 | <&McMartin> | Right, so |
| 11:38 | <&McMartin> | If Lavabit is unencrypted in/out |
| 11:38 | < Syka> | they DO NOT have TLS entry points |
| 11:39 | <&McMartin> | Then their "secure" email service is a laughable nullity |
| 11:39 | < Syka> | mcmartin: but between lavabit IS |
| 11:39 | | * AnnoDomini tries tuning outside. Same result. |
| 11:39 | < Syka> | which is the point |
| 11:39 | <&McMartin> | Er, right |
| 11:39 | <&McMartin> | We're assuming that Lavabit is a single server |
| 11:39 | < Syka> | and if anyone has TLS, lavabit would use it |
| 11:40 | < Syka> | eg. sending to gmail |
| 11:40 | <&McMartin> | And that all messages are stored in a form that is encrypted by keys lavabit does not know |
| 11:40 | < Reiver> | That's not unencrypted in/out quite as McM is envisioning methinks. |
| 11:40 | < Syka> | or servers set up by competent people |
| 11:40 | <&McMartin> | The thing is |
| 11:40 | <&McMartin> | In that case |
| 11:40 | < Syka> | which will have TLS transport |
| 11:40 | <&McMartin> | How can Lavabit "compromise itself"? |
| 11:40 | <&McMartin> | It could upload every bit of its servers to dropbox and nobody would get an email from it for a thousand years |
| 11:41 | < Syka> | mcmartin: well, they have to handle an unencrypted email to deliver it to someone else |
| 11:41 | < Syka> | unless the email itself is GPG encrtpted, in which case they handle an unencrypted email with GPG payload |
| 11:41 | <&McMartin> | That's true; but then, getting those emails shouldn't require NSLing Lavabit. |
| 11:41 | <&McMartin> | You've already intrinsically compromised the other endpoint in that case. |
| 11:42 | < Syka> | except NSLing lavabit can compel them to store those emails in unencrypted form |
| 11:42 | < Syka> | so that the service works as it does, but everything in and out is captured in the transport phase |
| 11:42 | <&McMartin> | How can they do that, when they don't have the GPG keys? |
| 11:42 | < Syka> | thats not the point |
| 11:42 | < Syka> | thats a mitigation |
| 11:42 | <&McMartin> | Hrm |
| 11:42 | < Syka> | and the email is still unencrypted |
| 11:43 | < Syka> | it just happens to contain a GPG payload |
| 11:43 | <&McMartin> | Oh, I get it |
| 11:43 | <&McMartin> | You're saying that Lavabit<->Gmail can't even have metadata captured without compromising a key along the way |
| 11:43 | <&McMartin> | Is that it? |
| 11:43 | < Syka> | well, to deliver an email to gmail |
| 11:44 | < Syka> | they need to have an unencrypted email |
| 11:44 | < Syka> | and then send it over a TLS transport, encrypting it to everyone elsw |
| 11:44 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 11:44 | <&McMartin> | We assume that the NSA can't crack TLS in realtime, but that's OK, let's do that |
| 11:44 | < Syka> | BUT nothing is stopping lavabit simply making a copy at that point |
| 11:44 | < Syka> | no |
| 11:44 | < Syka> | nothing to do with the NSA |
| 11:45 | < Syka> | Lavabit THEMSELVES have the unencrypted copy |
| 11:45 | <&McMartin> | Oh, right |
| 11:45 | < Syka> | the NSL could compel them to store it |
| 11:45 | <&McMartin> | Because they need to tell gmail "hey, send this email to this person" |
| 11:45 | < Syka> | yep |
| 11:45 | <&McMartin> | Meanwhile, lava<->lava doesn't need that because they could treat it as a big dropbox |
| 11:45 | < Syka> | so there is your unencrypted email |
| 11:46 | <&McMartin> | Your inbox is "every blob in this store that your private key decrypts" |
| 11:46 | < Syka> | well, i'm assuming lavabit would have multiple servers using smtp |
| 11:46 | < Syka> | so theoretically they could make that vulnerable too |
| 11:46 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I'm trying to build the hardest-to-crack case, which is laughably nonscalable but also never hits the wire except when a client is sending or receiving |
| 11:46 | < Syka> | since it needs to be unencrypted for lavabit to send it to itself |
| 11:46 | < RichyB> | I thought one of the points of lavabit was that they shipped an applet at your browser to run encryption code in and it was demanded that they trojan-horse that. |
| 11:46 | <&McMartin> | I'm not 100% sure that's true, but it probably is |
| 11:47 | <&McMartin> | RichyB: Nobody knows what was demanded |
| 11:47 | <&McMartin> | That would be a workable guess, though |
| 11:47 | <&McMartin> | Along with "you have to start storing information you currently do not" |
| 11:47 | <&McMartin> | However, the latter seems less NSLy |
| 11:47 | < Syka> | that could work too |
| 11:47 | < Syka> | i dont know how lavabit works |
| 11:47 | < Syka> | but i know how email works :p |
| 11:48 | < Syka> | but yes |
| 11:48 | < Syka> | it is certainly possible for lavabit to MITM everything external |
| 11:48 | < Xon> | Syka, tbh it sounds like lavabit needed to completely rebuild thier internal systems to allow MITM attacks |
| 11:48 | < Syka> | and theoreticallt possible for them to MITM internal |
| 11:48 | < Syka> | but it depends how it was built |
| 11:48 | <&McMartin> | Part of my skepticism here is also "this is America; we are really fucking open about demanding every scrap of everything fun from everyone, and ordinary Article III judges will sign right the fuck off on that stuff all the time" |
| 11:49 | <&McMartin> | The trojan horse theory is good because it seems like all these other things the USG had the option of saying "you cannot prove that you are keeping records that as an email provider you are legally required to keep; shape up or shut down" |
| 11:50 | <&McMartin> | And if they're trying to force in malware, that needs to come out and they need to knock that shit off |
| 11:50 | < Syka> | um |
| 11:50 | < Syka> | usg already makes malware |
| 11:50 | <&McMartin> | Well, of course~ |
| 11:50 | <&McMartin> | But it's supposed to use it a targeted weapon~ |
| 11:50 | <@froztbyte> | lol |
| 11:50 | < Syka> | youre using lavabit |
| 11:50 | <&McMartin> | (See: TOR, probably Stuxnet) |
| 11:51 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: I was about to say stuxnet |
| 11:51 | < Syka> | encryption == you're foreign, according to the NSA |
| 11:51 | <@froztbyte> | anyway |
| 11:51 | < Syka> | you are already a target |
| 11:51 | < Syka> | :p |
| 11:51 | <@froztbyte> | fuck these people |
| 11:51 | <&McMartin> | TOR is an interesting case, actually |
| 11:51 | <@froztbyte> | they should choke on their own vomit |
| 11:51 | <&McMartin> | Becuase that was a malware attack that just 0-dayed the target machines instead of trying to suborn stuff |
| 11:51 | <&McMartin> | We have a *mechanism* for suborning stuff, they're supposed to use *that* |
| 11:52 | < Syka> | but that requires court time |
| 11:52 | < Syka> | which is why the secret courts stamp off on it |
| 11:52 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, uh |
| 11:52 | <&McMartin> | Our non-secret courts are not exactly stingy about that stuff |
| 11:52 | < Syka> | 'we want everything because we want it' 'ok then' |
| 11:53 | < Syka> | yes, but your non secret courts sometimes deny requests |
| 11:53 | < Syka> | the FISA court doesn't |
| 11:53 | < Syka> | :p |
| 11:53 | <&McMartin> | Well, it's pretty easy to adjudicate law that says "it's OK if one participant might be foreign" |
| 11:53 | <&McMartin> | Also, when you let them amend the request in-place |
| 11:55 | <&McMartin> | But yes |
| 11:55 | <&McMartin> | Part of the problem with secrecy is that you can't see what's going on =P |
| 11:55 | <&McMartin> | However, people whose reaction is to assume the worst will fall into the Infinite Paranoia trap instantly, because, well, USG |
| 11:56 | <&McMartin> | FBI agents could kick your door down and shoot you in the face for no reason at any moment |
| 11:56 | <&McMartin> | The only thing stopping them from doing this is a piece of paper saying they're not allowed to |
| 11:57 | <&McMartin> | But that does kind of go back to the Groklaw article. |
| 11:57 | <&McMartin> | PJ is, IIRC, based somewhere in New England |
| 11:57 | <&McMartin> | If she has her email server in Switzerland |
| 11:57 | <&McMartin> | And FISA is presented with a request to tap that email line |
| 11:57 | <&McMartin> | The answer is 100% guaranteed to be "yes, go ahead; that's a communication with the Swiss. Switzerland is in Foreignlandia, that's explicitly authorized" |
| 11:58 | <&McMartin> | So, if one starts out in America, this seems like a counterproductive thing to do |
| 12:06 | < Reiver> | Wait, Tor is malware? |
| 12:29 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 12:41 | | ktemkin[awol] is now known as ktemkin |
| 13:01 | <&McMartin> | Tor was compromised by hitting both endpoints with malware and correlating |
| 13:02 | <&McMartin> | Tor is also apparently a US Navy project, so using it to hide from the US is kind of a bad move~ |
| 13:03 | <&McMartin> | (That said, Tor is not solving that problem; I'm not super clear on the exact details of how that worked vs what Tor is trying to provide) |
| 13:04 | < RichyB> | McMartin, if you're talking about the Firefox exploit that was distributed when the big anonymous TOR hosting service was hit, that wasn't actually an 0-day AIUI. |
| 13:04 | < RichyB> | s/you're/you were/ |
| 13:05 | < RichyB> | I seem to remember hearing that the exploit that they used was already known and patched and only affected the fairly-large proportion of people who were using the Tor browser bundle, didn't update Firefox and did turn off NoScript. |
| 13:07 | <&McMartin> | I thought they also had to compromise some of the darknet servers to make it work, and I thought that was done with 0-days against the OS. |
| 13:07 | <&McMartin> | You're right about the client stuff, and yeah, that's the hack I mean |
| 13:07 | < Syka> | um |
| 13:07 | < Syka> | i think it was a known ff vuln |
| 13:07 | < Syka> | they didnt need anything else |
| 13:07 | < Syka> | iirc |
| 13:07 | < Syka> | it was a 'true IP' disclosure attack |
| 13:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: re communication with Swiss mail servers: the thing is, if you assume the NSA is already tapping all ISP traffic, that is not actually any worse. |
| 13:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | And if you have transport encryption to the server, they can't even get metadata apart from "interacted with the mail server at this time" |
| 13:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | The perceived benefit to having the actual server outside the US, AIUI, is that they are not then vulnerable to the USG rolling over with a FISA warrant and saying "give us everything and don't tell anyone you have done so ever" |
| 13:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | So now you just need to worry about data-in-motion interception and not also about your mail server being silently replaced with an NSA listening post (or, at least, if it is, they will have to work for it) |
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| 15:41 | < RichyB> | Mad idea: if you're doing the "Swiss mail servers for privacy" thing, make sure that you're signed up for a bunch of porn spam and you do all your spam-filtering client-side. |
| 15:41 | < RichyB> | That will help you defeat traffic analysis. :) |
| 15:41 | <@Tamber> | "make sure"? Just use your email address in one place online, and it'll get set up for you! |
| 15:41 | <@Alek> | pfffffffffft |
| 15:42 | < RichyB> | Without spam: "suspect A sends ~400kB via SSL SMTP at 18:31h, suspect B recieves ~450kB via SSL SMTP at 18:33h. They're probably talking to each other." |
| 15:43 | <@Alek> | heh |
| 15:43 | < RichyB> | With spam: "suspect A sends ~400kB via SSL SMTP at 18:31h, suspect B receives ~450kB/s of crap email via SSL SMTP day in, day out so who knows what the fuck B did or didn't get a copy of." |
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| 16:06 | < ErikMesoy> | Why am I having a terrible experience with tortoisesvn? |
| 16:06 | < ErikMesoy> | Am I unique in this? |
| 16:08 | < AnnoDomini> | No. |
| 16:11 | <@gnolam> | What are the terrible experiences you are having? |
| 16:14 | | Karono [Karono@Nightstar-13c26ed9.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| 16:15 | < ErikMesoy> | Being slow to checkout from internet (halfway through I went to download the files I wanted manually, this was faster enough to finish first), canceling badly (Cancel: TortoiseSVN has stopped working), |
| 16:15 | < ErikMesoy> | dying badly (I killed it with Task Manager at that point; it respawned to report an error) and badly inserting itself into context menus (right-clicking a folder now had a multi-second delay before the menu with the new SVN options appeared). |
| 16:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | SVN is bad. Tortoise is awful. |
| 16:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | Use git-svn if you can. |
| 16:35 | < Syka> | svn is overall pain |
| 16:57 | | ErikMesoy is now known as Harrower |
| 17:24 | < Xon> | <ToxicFrog> SVN is bad. Tortoise is awful. |
| 17:24 | < Xon> | this, so much this |
| 17:37 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 17:37 | < RichyB> | SVN is only bad in the same sense that amputating wounded limbs is bad. |
| 17:38 | <@TheWatcher> | Amuptating wounded limbs in a field hospital with a rusty sawblade. |
| 17:38 | < RichyB> | We have Git/antibiotics now, which solve the same problems more effectively, but it's still better than no-source-control/dying-of-gangrene. |
| 17:39 | < Syka> | then there is snapshot-tarballs/having a clone |
| 17:39 | < RichyB> | No really, SVN isn't *that* bad. I wish I could force you to use CVS for a week so that you'd stop making overly negative statements about SVN. :P |
| 17:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | RichyB: I've used CVS. I freely admit that SVN is better than CVS. |
| 17:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | That does not actually make it good, especially today. |
| 17:41 | < Syka> | you can't say that "svn isn't /that/ bad" |
| 17:42 | < Syka> | just because worse things exist does not mean we cannot hold our tools to a higher standard |
| 17:42 | < Syka> | it's like saying "Tornado isn't that bad, it's better than sockets!" |
| 17:42 | < Syka> | doesn't change Tornado being lols |
| 17:46 | <@TheWatcher> | RichyB: I cut my teeth on rcs, before it even became cvs. I used CVS for a nearly a decade. |
| 17:46 | <@TheWatcher> | And yeah, like TF said |
| 17:46 | < RichyB> | I still think you're all whinging over one tiny little murder here and there |
| 17:46 | < RichyB> | we used to have accidental genocides all over the place |
| 17:46 | <@TheWatcher> | Pft |
| 17:47 | <@TheWatcher> | I must admit, that's probably the first time a discussion of version control systems has actually made me laugh. |
| 17:48 | <@iospace> | i use SVN at work, generally don't have that many issues with it |
| 17:52 | <@iospace> | fucking tcl |
| 17:52 | <@iospace> | fucking expect |
| 17:53 | | * Tamber hands iospace the applicator of the fire of cleansing. |
| 17:53 | <@iospace> | Tamber: i wish |
| 18:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | RichyB: more generally, I have no patience for "you can't call X bad because Y is worse" |
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| 20:35 | <&Derakon> | Whelp, figured out what my "network throttling" issue was, kind of. |
| 20:35 | <&Derakon> | The PCI card that the camera uses to send images to my control software is having Issues. |
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| 21:23 | < Azash> | Derakon: Not sure if relieved |
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| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | Of Erik's list, only the first thing is expected behavior. SVN doesn't do acceptable delta compression and doesn't maintain a secure connection very well, so downloading a tarball will always beat it |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | The other stuff should not happen |
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| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | Aha, there it is |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | The thing I was remembering about compromising the servers in the Tor case was how they got the malware distributed in the first place |
| 22:30 | <@Tamber> | Wasn't that less "hacking" compromise, more "Turn up on the doorstep with a warrant and an 'or else'"? |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | For the Tor case? I was not under that impression. |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | However, I'm also now not clear as to whether they hacked Freedom Hosting or spoofed it to "under maintenance" pages that delivered the payload. |
| 23:06 | <@Tamber> | Apparently, the JS crap turned up *after* the feds arrested the owner, and 'apparently' it's a pretty common pattern for FBI sting operations for something like that to get added to the (primarily, child porn) sites they take out the owners of, so they can catch the users too. |
| 23:07 | <@Tamber> | Take that with a heavy pinch of salt, though. |
| 23:07 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I am, in part because I thought they hadn't made an arrest for this case yet >_. |
| 23:07 | <&McMartin> | (Because he was in Ireland or something, and the FBI tends to lose bureaucratic turf wars~) |
| 23:07 | <@Tamber> | "Eric Eoin Marques, a 28-year-old Irish citizen, is being held without bail in Ireland after a preliminary extradition hearing on Saturday aimed at sending him to the US, where he would face charges of distributing child pornography online." |
| 23:07 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey, how about that |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | OK then |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | Which news feeds are you using here? |
| 23:08 | <@Tamber> | http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2013/08/05/freedom-hosting-arrest-and-takedown-l inked-to-tor-privacy-compromise/ |
| 23:08 | <@Tamber> | also https://openwatch.net/i/200/ |
| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | Cool, thanks |
| 23:37 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: fwiw, if you want a couple of good feeds to tag, @thegrugq, @abad1dea, @dakami |
| 23:37 | <@froztbyte> | mostly not full of shit |
| 23:37 | <&McMartin> | Are those Twitter? |
| 23:37 | <@froztbyte> | yes |
| 23:37 | <&McMartin> | Cool |
| 23:37 | | * McMartin has not been using The Twitters much of late. |
| 23:38 | <&McMartin> | Actually, I kind of retired from the non-IRC Internet three years ago >_> |
| 23:38 | <@froztbyte> | there's perhaps a couple of crypto people you can add there too |
| 23:38 | <@froztbyte> | @zooko and the like |
| 23:38 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: yeah I'm sorta a tourist to most of the non-IRC internet |
| 23:38 | <@froztbyte> | utilitarian. |
| 23:39 | <@froztbyte> | also I swear I misspelled that, but too tired |
| 23:39 | <&McMartin> | Nope, that's right |
| 23:40 | <@froztbyte> | teh tireds, it haz us |
| 23:41 | <@TheWatcher> | Ditto |
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| --- Log closed Wed Aug 21 00:00:31 2013 |